9243 réponses à ce sujet

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Sahariel wrote...

I'm glad your hear for the positive devil's advocate   I also would have to agree with your view as well. I tried telling Ero this myself. I like dudes and am A DEVIANT. A deviant is someone different form the norm. I am a dude the finds other dudes hot. Is that a norm? Only within a group of other dudes that like dudes. In the real world around everyone else its not. homosexuality is like 3% of the population, THO I am quite sure it is more closer to 8-10% area if only because their are so many males and females whom you would never know liked the same gender and are also, like myself, not one to really go out in my day to day life and announce my orientation to everyone. Men liking women and vice versa is the NORM. Without which our species would never have developed in the first place.

Eros, you can't keep sayins we need the "exact same" amount of romances because that belittles the characters themselves, how they are developed. It feels like they did that in my book by making Garrus romancable. To any Shepard he still seems like the great best friend and to a female Shepard, more or less a sister. But then again many people thought otherwise so if they can demand them then I remain constant in my demand for Kaidan in ME3.

To be honest and whiney for a moment: I still want Kaidan. Why? Because he was intended and his dialogue orignally with male shepard as only slightly changed to how it is currently. Very little changed. It is NOT impossible for him to be a possible approach for a Male Shepard in Mass Effect 3, especially considering, I am more or less certain most MaleShepards who saved him in the first place want him for a romance, because Ashley was always romancable by MaleShepard. I'm sure I'm wrong on a few instances where people see him as a good friend, but even with the dialogue as it is now he's STILL a romance in my book for Male Shepard. There is chemistry between them that I demand to be consumated in Mass Effect 3!

Now, for the honesty: I won't get that. As much as I complain I highly doubt Bioware will give us any s/s romance in Mass Effect 3 outside of something for a F/F for the eager "lesbian watchers" crowd of males. And I'll even be cynical enough to say the reason we won't get it is mostly likely because Bioware doesnt care. If they did, we'd get an honest answer out of them. Still I wont stop letting them know because even after Mass Effect 3, I am certain this isn't the last of the Mass Effect Universe when it comes to video games. Certainly not. Which means this debate will remain constant and ever going on until such a time as Bioware gives people what they want: their manly marines on marines

DADT is repealed, so in the 2200s I don't think we'd see only comrads of war

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 22 décembre 2010 - 06:27 .

[Sahariel]

catabuca wrote...

snipped for brevity

1. You are absolutely right, but that doesn't make it any less true that if you put same sex relationships in your game you are likely to hike the age requirement up and I suspect younger gamers > gay gamers. Bioware want to sell to as large a market as possible so there is your reason.

2. No problem with well written romances, I just don't like an NPC's sexual orientation being defined by the player. I for one liked the idea above of a trully gay woman shooting down a male sheps advanes. That kind of thing works for me and has depth.

To respond to the rest your post I suspect what is behind this is marketing and trying to avoid controversy. You may remember when the first ME came out Fox news ran this hysterical piece on how ME was a sex simulator etc etc. This was all extremely farcical, but ever since then there hasn't been a sex scene in a Bioware game that hasn't been clothed. Even to the farcical degree that Morrigan must logistically have to change INTO a bra in order to have sex with the player in Dragon Age. In lots of ways ever since then Bioware games have gotten a lot more prudish and middle of the road, and I feel this is symptom of that rather than any embedded homophobia in Bioware itself.

[Sahariel]

[quote]LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

[quote]Sahariel wrote...

Snipped for Brevity...

[/quote]

Thanks for the support, and as a straight guy I don't feel the need to openly announce my orientation either, so you shouldn't have to either. Going with your thread on Kaiden and things a few others have said, it seems like there is every valid reason to read a homoerotic subtext to Kaiden/MShep, one I have been up to now completely unaware of. If that is the case then I don't  see any reason not to include it in ME3, or possibly some DLC for ME2.

[jlb524]

Sahariel wrote...

Ok you seem to have mistaken me for something I am not. I am against same sex relationships with NPCs in ToR simply because when they appear in games they tend towards hiking the age rating of the game, and I want ToR to be a WoW killer which it won't be if only a handful of people can play it. I'd rather the equal reltionships brigade fought thier battle in A) A place there are more like to actually win it, and In a place where it won't damage the potential of the game.

I don't think these romances should 'hike' the age rating.  They are no more racy then their hetero counterparts.

Sahariel wrote...
Secondly lets deal with the elephant in the room here shall we? Damn straight it's "alternative". Last I checked homosexuals and bisexuals were in a minority, therefore that is a departure from what is normal. You however seemed to have placed some strange value on that being significant. Normal isn't always good and different isn't always either. In my considered opinion being gay or bisexual isn't normal, neither is it a bad thing. What gives me the right to say that? Nothing beyond an ability to read statistics. We don't need a society that tries to make everything uniform, or to sterlize language for the risk of offending someone. I for one would not be considered not normal, as I'll stop to help a stranger, try to be polite and a myriad of other common courtesies lost in the modern age, however this is a deviation I posses I am very proud of.

Huh?  If 'normal' isn't always good, then why should it be upheld in a video game?  How does asking for more s/s romances lead to making things 'uniform'?

Sahariel wrote...

Ok how are Bioware being hypocrites? Gay and bi romances are in a minority if you include them in equal number you are scewing the statistics, and representing an unrealistic appraisal of human sexuality. Say if you include 1-2 gay/bi romances out of 10 possible options you would be sensibly representing statistics. The only other option is to run a sandbox style game where you can go out and meet and specifically recruit crewmembers because thier sexuality matches your own. Then you would lose more interpersonal story threads.

I think the argument is that ME is a fantasy game and doesn't ever represent 'real life'.   I also don't think people want gay romances included in 'equal number' to the straight ones, they just want on option amongst many straight ones.

Sahariel wrote...

Ok when I say Mass Effect isn't a romance I see I am going to have to educate you as to literary theory here. For a story to be a Romance the romantic aspects have to be the elements that drive foward the narrative. Romeo and Juliet is a romance because you take out the love and you have no story. Brokeback Mountain too is a love story and hence a romance, take out the love and you have two dudes watching livestock and precious little else. Fact is you can play through both Mass Effects not engage in any romance and it doesn't stop the story moving foward. Ergo it's not a romance. However it can still contain romances, but they are secondary plot elements that whilst they may add depth do not define the story.

To summarise: have same sex relationships, but please do them well or not at all.

Yes, but some feel left out b/c they cannot add 'depth' to their story b/c there are no romance options available to them (being a gay male).

[jlb524]

Also, Mark Twain sums it up nicely:



"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

[jlb524]

Sahariel wrote...

2. No problem with well written romances, I just don't like an NPC's sexual orientation being defined by the player. I for one liked the idea above of a trully gay woman shooting down a male sheps advanes. That kind of thing works for me and has depth.

BioWare would never do such a thing as they must always cater to straight gamers.  Any hot female LI will always be available for m/f romances, even if it makes more sense for her to be gay.

[chickenNstrawberries]

Supported. Fair is fair.

[Rekkampum]

jlb524 wrote...

Also, Mark Twain sums it up nicely:

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

That. Nice quote.

[Zarathoustra5]

Yop everyone, I apologize for the mistakes, I'm not really an English speaker (French)
But I'll support this topic too, no matter what.
There's no real raison too prevent you from obtain m/m romances in Mass Effect. It's totally insane to put f/f romance only. I think that's the logical way to do things when you only focuses about sells... Many straight guys love seeing lesbians so, it's a big deal. On the other hand, f/f romance isn't just lesbian. A girl in ME can always be with a man, isn't that completely incohrent? There's no real lesbian at all? Are all girls forced to love a boy? Stupid. That's some cliche -nothing more-. To me, this kind of behavior (not implementing m/m romances whereas f/f is possible) contribute to decrease any coherence in ME.
"Idem" for NPC, characters. It's really pitiful to see that people always used to think that "we're GAY or HETERO". If think it's more like a continuum. Sexuality isn't fix in stone (i don't know if that expression exists in english, sry again), so there's nothing really incoherent in implemented "gay" behavior with our companions.
So I believe Bioware and people should think about it. That's totally incoherent. Those who said that it's important to respect a "10% gay people" even if ME, just look the other way. It's no like hetero guy who play the game 'll be forced to have m/m romances! That's a totally weird attitude and it's got on my nerves .
People have a strange concept of "normality". They don't understand that the normality is only something cultural. Only something that doesn't really exist at all. It's nothing more than a way to codify our lives. And I see that many people here are still in those kind of illusion. I mean, I'm ok with people who doesn't want m/m, that's their choice and I respect it. But seriously, there's no real argument. Nothing at all. Nothing about the moral point of vue in every instance, that's unfair .
I'm really sorry for all the mistakes, I just hope you'll see that there's many people who support this kind of topic Thanks for reading.
Don't give up cause you're making a beautiful "fight for love"

[jlb524]

Zarathoustra5 wrote...


Yop everyone, I apologize for the mistakes, I'm not really an English speaker (French)
But I'll support this topic too, no matter what.
There's no real raison too prevent you from obtain m/m romances in Mass Effect. It's totally insane to put f/f romance only. I think that's the logical way to do things when you only focuses about sells... Many straight guys love seeing lesbians so, it's a big deal. On the other hand, f/f romance isn't just lesbian. A girl in ME can always be with a man, isn't that completely incohrent? There's no real lesbian at all? Are all girls forced to love a boy? Stupid. That's some cliche -nothing more-. To me, this kind of behavior (not implementing m/m romances whereas f/f is possible) contribute to decrease any coherence in ME.
"Idem" for NPC, characters. It's really pitiful to see that people always used to think that "we're GAY or HETERO". If think it's more like a continuum. Sexuality isn't fix in stone (i don't know if that expression exists in english, sry again), so there's nothing really incoherent in implemented "gay" behavior with our companions.
So I believe Bioware and people should think about it. That's totally incoherent. Those who said that it's important to respect a "10% gay people" even if ME, just look the other way. It's no like hetero guy who play the game 'll be forced to have m/m romances! That's a totally weird attitude and it's got on my nerves .
People have a strange concept of "normality". They don't understand that the normality is only something cultural. Only something that doesn't really exist at all. It's nothing more than a way to codify our lives. And I see that many people here are still in those kind of illusion. I mean, I'm ok with people who doesn't want m/m, that's their choice and I respect it. But seriously, there's no real argument. Nothing at all. Nothing about the moral point of vue in every instance, that's unfair .
I'm really sorry for all the mistakes, I just hope you'll see that there's many people who support this kind of topic Thanks for reading.
Don't give up cause you're making a beautiful "fight for love"

Yes, yes, I agree 100%

[HolyJellyfish]

I support this thread fully.

[HolyJellyfish]

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

Now, for the honesty: I won't get that. As much as I complain I highly doubt Bioware will give us any s/s romance in Mass Effect 3 outside of something for a F/F for the eager "lesbian watchers" crowd of males. And I'll even be cynical enough to say the reason we won't get it is mostly likely because Bioware doesnt care. If they did, we'd get an honest answer out of them. Still I wont stop letting them know because even after Mass Effect 3, I am certain this isn't the last of the Mass Effect Universe when it comes to video games. Certainly not. Which means this debate will remain constant and ever going on until such a time as Bioware gives people what they want: their manly marines on marines

DADT is repealed, so in the 2200s I don't think we'd see only comrads of war

They do care, else they wouldn't have covered so much time and energy planning then retconning the m/m and f/f romances in the past.

[ElitePinecone]

Sahariel wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Snipped for brevity.

Snip

I can appreciate this position. Sterile romances of any persuasion are definitely to be avoided. I still take some issue with the mindset that sexuality needs to be at the forefront of a person's character or personality - in my experience it's invariably seldom the case in a professional context, and it would presumably be even less so when you're fighting an intergalactic war against a race of sentient machines  How much more moving would the romance arc be if notions of sexuality were only incidental, or tentative? Or if it were not 'a big deal'? The MShep/Kaidan romance (the videos are on the front page) proceeds with no mention of defining sexuality - the 'romance', such as it is, goes on in exactly the same way as the femShep/Kaidan or MShep/Ashley ones. There's no 'big reveal', nor any ludicrous hint-dropping to give players fair warning of the LI's bisexuality (having just played the Zevran romance, I can see why some on this forum are dissatisfied). To clarify, I'm not against making characters' sexuality obvious (Liara does this in her first conversation, and we can hardly fault Bioware) - but I'm wary of making it the absolute core of their being. It would be so much more refreshing if the power in the romance came from what was left unsaid, if there were no need for ponderous exposition. 

I too would like some solutions, and if you look back at the first page of this thread (and the 141 that have followed it) there are some to be found. I'm wary of using certain terms lightly, and I agree that a more constructive discussion of proposals is better than slighting everything in sight or being offended. The willingness of everybody to debate this relatively civilly is welcome. 

Sahariel wrote...
therefore that is a departure from what is normal

I'd be wary of throwing terms like 'normal' around lightly. It can lead to misunderstandings and hostility, to say the least. Out of context, it can have unfortunate implications. 

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

Good Lord, this is a long thread. After reading 141 pages of it, there's not much I can add 

*Applause*
 

[Alarieliia]

Zarathoustra5 wrote...


Yop everyone, I apologize for the mistakes, I'm not really an English speaker (French)
But I'll support this topic too, no matter what.
There's no real raison too prevent you from obtain m/m romances in Mass Effect. It's totally insane to put f/f romance only. I think that's the logical way to do things when you only focuses about sells... Many straight guys love seeing lesbians so, it's a big deal. On the other hand, f/f romance isn't just lesbian. A girl in ME can always be with a man, isn't that completely incohrent? There's no real lesbian at all? Are all girls forced to love a boy? Stupid. That's some cliche -nothing more-. To me, this kind of behavior (not implementing m/m romances whereas f/f is possible) contribute to decrease any coherence in ME.
"Idem" for NPC, characters. It's really pitiful to see that people always used to think that "we're GAY or HETERO". If think it's more like a continuum. Sexuality isn't fix in stone (i don't know if that expression exists in english, sry again), so there's nothing really incoherent in implemented "gay" behavior with our companions.
So I believe Bioware and people should think about it. That's totally incoherent. Those who said that it's important to respect a "10% gay people" even if ME, just look the other way. It's no like hetero guy who play the game 'll be forced to have m/m romances! That's a totally weird attitude and it's got on my nerves .
People have a strange concept of "normality". They don't understand that the normality is only something cultural. Only something that doesn't really exist at all. It's nothing more than a way to codify our lives. And I see that many people here are still in those kind of illusion. I mean, I'm ok with people who doesn't want m/m, that's their choice and I respect it. But seriously, there's no real argument. Nothing at all. Nothing about the moral point of vue in every instance, that's unfair .
I'm really sorry for all the mistakes, I just hope you'll see that there's many people who support this kind of topic Thanks for reading.
Don't give up cause you're making a beautiful "fight for love"

Yep! Oh and Z your English is actually really good.

[catabuca]

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

Well, I've said it once, I'll say it again:




Seriously Bioware?

ikr?

I'm really glad we have this thread, because there are some excellent discussions and it's good to see the wide spectrum of ideas, opinions, and so on.

[Sahariel]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Ok I think your missing a point here. Someone's sexuality is going to have a MASSIVE impact on thier psychology, but that isn't going to anything close to the whole story. I'm not however advocating that a character should be defined simply by their sexuality that would be one-dimensional and boring, but I don't know consider James Bond a literary and celluloid personality who is hugely defined by his sexuality. Also by the death of his wife, the fact he is an orphan etc etc. Of course someone can be professional and thier sexuality shouldn't really come up, but this is a thread about romance options in a videogame so I fail to see how it wouldn't come up?

Also my usage of the term normal is deliberate, I'm not wary of causing hosility amongst those who will take what I say out of context, or who have a mixed up view on what that word actually represents. I can be sensitive to people, but I'm not going to kow tow to people who don't take the time to pay attention to what I am saying.

[CmdrShepardsGirl]

You have my support on this topic =D

[Collider]

Congrats on S/S in DA2, let's just hope they also mean M/M and not just F/F.

[ElitePinecone]

Collider wrote...

Congrats on S/S in DA2, let's just hope they also mean M/M and not just F/F.

Is there a source for this info?

[Marta Rio]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Collider wrote...

Congrats on S/S in DA2, let's just hope they also mean M/M and not just F/F.

Is there a source for this info?

Click on the link in Collider's sig...although warning: it links to an interview in French.

Quote:
Concernant les romances, tous les compagnons y sont-ils soumis selon qu'on incarne un homme ou une femme ?
Les compagnons ne sont pas tous intéréssés "romantiquement" à Hawke, meme si il y a des options pour chaque genre et orientation.

I only took high school French, but the answer roughly translates to:

The companions are not all interested romantically in Hawke, but there are options for each gender and orientation.

Modifié par Marta Rio, 22 décembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[Wittand25]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Collider wrote...

Congrats on S/S in DA2, let's just hope they also mean M/M and not just F/F.

Is there a source for this info?

There is also this interview in english. Just click on Mr. Laidlaw´s name to start it, romances come up at minute seven or so.

[ElitePinecone]

Thanks - the written interview ("il y a des options pour chaque genre et orientation.") and the video are good news. Collider, the answer did mention 'for each gender and orientation', so presumably that does mean M/M as well as F/F.



In any event, this is welcome news.

[earthbornFemShep]

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually having multiple people shoot down Shep (gay shep and straight shep) would be pretty fun.

Shep: What is going on?!? Everyone wanted to sleep with me before! T_T

HA!  Nice one, Ryzaki. 

[catabuca]

Not remarkably pertinent to our ME thread, but David Gaider's most recent comments on the s/s DA2 thread:

So long as romances of any kind are optional and need to be actively pursued by the player in order to be experienced, they simply don't have a leg to stand on. Advocating that nobody should be able to have content you don't intend to personally use is largely pointless-- outside of a vague notion that such efforts should go towards other things, instead. Personally, it's not a lot of effort to include them. The resources we can devote to a minority of players isn't great, but I imagine to those players it's quite worth it... and I would hope that some folks could be sensitive enough to be happy for those players, at the very least out of the selfish notion that they may one day end up in the minority of some content issue and receive the same consideration if nothing else.

Now all we need is for Mr Gaider to go and hit the ME team over their heads with his sensible stick and we can all be happy.

[Zarathoustra5]

That's a great declaration. Sounds good to hear that from Gaider
Let's hope ME team will do so...

Modifié par Zarathoustra5, 23 décembre 2010 - 02:31 .