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Sahariel wrote...
Eromenos wrote...
snipped for brevity...
Ok you seem to have mistaken me for something I am not. I am against same sex relationships with NPCs in ToR simply because when they appear in games they tend towards hiking the age rating of the game, and I want ToR to be a WoW killer which it won't be if only a handful of people can play it. I'd rather the equal reltionships brigade fought thier battle in A) A place there are more like to actually win it, andIn a place where it won't damage the potential of the game.
The ESRB's discrimination against M/M and F/F is wrong, and allowing that to be the reason for pretending the queer community is nonexistent only serves to heighten producers' and censors' solid support behind homophobic exclusion.
As for ratings-limitations being an excuse to keep ToR gay-free, you can't seriously believe the majority of kids who play WoW actually purchase/subscribe without their parents' money or identities.
If human M/M and F/F being handled with respect in a game equates to an un-possible conundrum for you, then I'm not surprised you'd prefer to record your semblance of a good deed via echoing the same empty nothings that BioWare has spared for us on this issue.
Secondly lets deal with the elephant in the room here shall we? Damn straight it's "alternative". Last I checked homosexuals and bisexuals were in a minority, therefore that is a departure from what is normal. You however seemed to have placed some strange value on that being significant. Normal isn't always good and different isn't always either. In my considered opinion being gay or bisexual isn't normal, neither is it a bad thing. What gives me the right to say that? Nothing beyond an ability to read statistics. We don't need a society that tries to make everything uniform, or to sterlize language for the risk of offending someone. I for one would not be considered not normal, as I'll stop to help a stranger, try to be polite and a myriad of other common courtesies lost in the modern age, however this is a deviation I posses I am very proud of.
"Alternative sexuality" is a backhanded gesture to put all members of the queer community "in our place." Unacknowledged unless our wants are pleasurable and serviceable to the majority culture that enjoys exploiting our images as of late in attempts to appease self-conscience. Why would proponents of homophobic systems prefer an uphill battle for the queer community? To delay erosions against traditions that inflict harm.
ESRB homophobia- Harm.
Homophobic exclusion from protagonist roles in mass media- Harm.
Lay-men's dismissal of above homophobia- Harm.
So- "The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few?" I'm guessing that's the attitude of a person who believes oneself to be friendly toward gay people, yet challenges our right to be seen in roles wittheld from us for bigoted reasons. Sorry, that noble attitude rings falsehood, especially in this situation. It is adopted by wannabe-heroes to excuse ugliness of unswerving belief in petty abuses against minorities who are continually subjected to ill treatment.
The short response is, "alternative sexuality" is not our label for ourselves. It's your label for us. "Queer or LGBT community," unlike yours, states cohesive minority self-identity in spite of establishment efforts to categorize our existence as separate and unequal at all turns.
As much as BioWare prefers to cast an ugly shadow over all of our depictions thus far, you too have not been able to conceptualize us without doing the same.
Ok how are Bioware being hypocrites? Gay and bi romances are in a minority if you include them in equal number you are scewing the statistics, and representing an unrealistic appraisal of human sexuality. Say if you include 1-2 gay/bi romances out of 10 possible options you would be sensibly representing statistics. The only other option is to run a sandbox style game where you can go out and meet and specifically recruit crewmembers because thier sexuality matches your own. Then you would lose more interpersonal story threads.
Reality- let's not pretend that any of this is reality. The game world, the NPCs, the storyline, all just happen to be artificial constructs which may be perceived as affirmations of a reality the majority culture prefers to believe in largely due to an absence of "pesky M/M."
I'm failing to see what would be unrealistic to you if say, 6 shipmates (3 male, 3 female) could all respond to Shepard's interest without his/her biological sex being a deciding factor? Let's assume you play John Shepard, and that you like Miranda. In that case, you'd probably know what to do about that. So why should the male NPCs' sexualities have any bearing on a relationship you may have with Miranda?
Interpersonal Story Threads- ME2's examples were failures, even without M/M to clog things up as you believe. 11 squadmates gave us some variety of choices in combat but roughly half of them were dull and lacked feelings of meaning or discovery. Thane? I knew what he was the instant they leaked him: the new "badass male alien" for the promo campaigns, created just for that sake and with little at all to do with the bigger picture in ME. And he's just one example.
Ok when I say Mass Effect isn't a romance I see I am going to have to educate you as to literary theory here. For a story to be a Romance the romantic aspects have to be the elements that drive foward the narrative. Romeo and Juliet is a romance because you take out the love and you have no story. Brokeback Mountain too is a love story and hence a romance, take out the love and you have two dudes watching livestock and precious little else. Fact is you can play through both Mass Effects not engage in any romance and it doesn't stop the story moving foward. Ergo it's not a romance. However it can still contain romances, but they are secondary plot elements that whilst they may add depth do not define the story.
To summarise: have same sex relationships, but please do them well or not at all.
I'm not sure if I wrote it or if I only thought it, but here's something we already know- ME's bigger picture and marketing scheme are both about humanity vs. Reapers. But you vaguely said ME is not a romance. Why do that in this thread? We're here because its romantic aspects do concern us. Are you back to some argment that M/M might detract from Humanity vs. Reapers?
I agree with last line you wrote. But I'm confused why you don't think that should apply to BioWare's past/present/future?
Modifié par Eromenos, 23 décembre 2010 - 08:28 .
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I also would have to agree with your view as well. I tried telling Ero this myself. I like dudes and am A DEVIANT. A deviant is someone different form the norm. I am a dude the finds other dudes hot. Is that a norm? Only within a group of other dudes that like dudes. In the real world around everyone else its not. homosexuality is like 3% of the population, THO I am quite sure it is more closer to 8-10% area if only because their are so many males and females whom you would never know liked the same gender and are also, like myself, not one to really go out in my day to day life and announce my orientation to everyone. Men liking women and vice versa is the NORM. Without which our species would never have developed in the first place. 
Well what would be wrong with that, anyway? Not a damn thing because they're normal too and certainly it's within the realm of possibility. To me everybody is "bisexual" even to the smallest degree because we're able to recognize what other people sometimes find attractive, even when we do not feel the same. But I don't emphasize the labeling. Imagine if this were the case in ME2- 6 squadmates anyone can romance if he or she really gets to know the person or persons of interest, all the while making choices to become a Shepard whom the paramour can admire. Who really loses other than the squadmates who continue to sleep alone?
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Thanks for reading.
I like to pretend that Garrus was lying about the female turian. They do not exist and as such my brain says that Turians are an all male race. 
