9243 réponses à ce sujet

[ElitePinecone]

Eromenos wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

This does make me wonder about how exactly homosexuality is viewed by humanity as a whole in 2185. Have there been any codex entries that address this issue?

There haven't been any that dare to directly.

But take a look at the Ardat-Yakshi entry. BioWare may be careful not to overtly slander the queer community with actual labels, settling for F/F exploitation instead, but their codex of Ardat-Yakshi reminds me of many gay-hating pundits' take on LGBT people's habits-

"Most cultivate and discard countless exploitative or abusive relationships during their legally marginal lives. Despite rumors of Ardat-Yakshi syndicates, by nature Ardat-Yakshi are incapable of long-term cooperation."

Inspiration no doubt for BioWare, given who they wrote as Morinth's sole identifiable victim.

One could argue that such things may be said of straight people as well as gay people, but this would never be about straight people as an entire group. That level of hate in our world is deployed only against the queer community.

I'd hardly say there's "no doubt" that Bioware were using gay or lesbian people as the inspiration for Ardat-Yakshi in a perjorative sense. The attribution of negative characteristics to an entire group is by no means confined to queer people; Bioware have an extensive tradition of tackling discrimination based on ethnic, religious or cultural grounds. Yes, the language is reminiscent of anti-homosexual 60s literature, using it (perhaps even in an ironic sense) in this case shouldn't, in my view, be seen as endorsing its original context. The presence of 'xenophobic' content (in the Terra Firma party, and so on) doesn't imply Bioware is endorsing xenophobia. It's important to distance the fictional from the real.

Without confirmation from the writing team, it's less than helpful and perhaps even harmful to speculate on the motivations of the developers, especially accusations of prejudice. As hard as it may be to believe, Bioware does not have a personal vendetta against gay and lesbian people, nor are they conducting a crusade for moral decency. They're a corporate entity creating a video game, moreover they're a company that has been more positive about same-sex romances than almost every other major development studio.

That being said, to answer TS2Aggie's question, we don't really know. The only (human) homosexual character to appear, aside from Nef, was a security chief/ex-Alliance marine in one of the novels. Drew Karpyshyn, the lead writer for the Mass Effect series and the novel's author, wrote the character with a minimum of attention, the marine's homosexuality was commented on in a few of the early chapters and then not mentioned. None of the other characters in the novel appeared to care, which backs up other information we've been given about humanity's tolerance in general for religious/ethnic/cultural differences in 2185. Many of the posts I've read from Chris L'Etolle and others on the writing team have confirmed this general sense of tolerance among humans of the 22nd century.

[Unkei]

chickenNstrawberries wrote...

Supported. Fair is fair.

Seconded.

[Eromenos]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I'd hardly say there's "no doubt" that Bioware were using gay or lesbian people as the inspiration for Ardat-Yakshi in a perjorative sense. The attribution of negative characteristics to an entire group is by no means confined to queer people; Bioware have an extensive tradition of tackling discrimination based on ethnic, religious or cultural grounds. Yes, the language is reminiscent of anti-homosexual 60s literature, using it (perhaps even in an ironic sense) in this case shouldn't, in my view, be seen as endorsing its original context. The presence of 'xenophobic' content (in the Terra Firma party, and so on) doesn't imply Bioware is endorsing xenophobia. It's important to distance the fictional from the real.

The 60s? No, I'm afraid the attitude in that codex remains popular nowadays.

I don't understand the parallels you're trying to draw between Terra Firma and Ardat-Yakshi. TF was a representation of overt bigotry in the form of racism which most people IRL understand to be wrong at least "on principle" even if they do not live their lives according to that principle. Not only that but in ME1 and (to much lesser extent)ME2 there are many humans who object to racist attitudes, being at least as loud as those who give in to it.

AY have no such positive counterbalances whatsoever. BioWare deems human S/S to be impossible and they've gone so far as to state that same-sex romances do not occur in either ME. BioWare is not "tackling discrimination." BioWare is giving in to discrimination. They sank low with this one.

Without confirmation from the writing team, it's less than helpful and perhaps even harmful to speculate on the motivations of the developers, especially accusations of prejudice. As hard as it may be to believe, Bioware does not have a personal vendetta against gay and lesbian people, nor are they conducting a crusade for moral decency. They're a corporate entity creating a video game, moreover they're a company that has been more positive about same-sex romances than almost every other major development studio.

What's so harmful about criticism? If you're suggesting that BioWare would punish everyone just because of me then a lot of people should re-think the team they're cheerleading for.

If the devs or writers have a good response to any of this then it would be a no-brainer for them to use it to resolve controversy. But they don't have any good reasons for what they've done. They bank on silence to earn them a benefit of the doubt, which a lot of people seem desperate to live on.

"A corporate entity creating a video game." That's innocent. So their creations and messages cause no impact among people who experience these wares? BioWare must be the real victims then, in an ivory tower not having any idea of what the world is or isn't. LGBT presence in their forums requesting visibility and inclusiveness in their storylines fall by the wayside because the devs who post in these parts are surely missing us rather than ignoring us. Those F/F exploitations that do occur , surely these must be born out of misguided ableit pure sense of outreach to us. Right?

That being said, to answer TS2Aggie's question, we don't really know. The only (human) homosexual character to appear, aside from Nef, was a security chief/ex-Alliance marine in one of the novels. Drew Karpyshyn, the lead writer for the Mass Effect series and the novel's author, wrote the character with a minimum of attention, the marine's homosexuality was commented on in a few of the early chapters and then not mentioned. None of the other characters in the novel appeared to care, which backs up other information we've been given about humanity's tolerance in general for religious/ethnic/cultural differences in 2185. Many of the posts I've read from Chris L'Etolle and others on the writing team have confirmed this general sense of tolerance among humans of the 22nd century.

Nef wasn't homosexual. She was "questioning." Even for someone who calls herself a freak and ends up dead because of S/S, BioWare wouldn't allow the pretty white teenage human female to be inaccessible to males in her lifetime.

I haven't read the ME books, and I have no plans to. What I have heard about the male character Hendel is that his sexuality is only hinted at. /golfclap to BioWare. Even in a book without pictures and sidelined from the mainstream products of the franchise, the token gay male is rendered sexless and wrapped up in plausible deniability. But I haven't read the one book he appears in, so if anyone knows better about him I would love to hear it.

Modifié par Eromenos, 01 janvier 2011 - 04:46 .

[didymos1120]

Eromenos wrote...
But take a look at the Ardat-Yakshi entry. BioWare may be careful not to
overtly slander the queer community with actual labels, settling for
F/F exploitation instead, but their codex of Ardat-Yakshi reminds me of
many gay-hating pundits' take on LGBT people's habits-

"Most cultivate and discard countless exploitative or abusive relationships during their legally marginal lives. Despite rumors of Ardat-Yakshi syndicates, by nature Ardat-Yakshi are incapable of long-term cooperation."

Inspiration no doubt for BioWare, given who they wrote as Morinth's sole identifiable victim.

Uh, that's basically lifted right from definitions of Anti-Social Personality Disorder, a far more likely source of inspiration for a character who is, basically, a serial killer.  A lot of Morinth's behavior is drawn straight from ASPD as well: blaming mommy for what she does, substance abuse, irritability and impatience with anything remotely boring,  complete lack of guilt/remorse, being a lying liar who lies, etc., ad nauseum. Yes, there are unfortunate implications given the context, but I highly doubt any sort of crypto-conservatism or intentional malice is at work there.  Just a failure to think things through.

[Eromenos]

didymos1120 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
But take a look at the Ardat-Yakshi entry. BioWare may be careful not to
overtly slander the queer community with actual labels, settling for
F/F exploitation instead, but their codex of Ardat-Yakshi reminds me of
many gay-hating pundits' take on LGBT people's habits-

"Most cultivate and discard countless exploitative or abusive relationships during their legally marginal lives. Despite rumors of Ardat-Yakshi syndicates, by nature Ardat-Yakshi are incapable of long-term cooperation."

Inspiration no doubt for BioWare, given who they wrote as Morinth's sole identifiable victim.

Uh, that's basically lifted right from definitions of Anti-Social Personality Disorder, a far more likely source of inspiration for a character who is, basically, a serial killer.  A lot of Morinth's behavior is drawn straight from ASPD as well: blaming mommy for what she does, substance abuse, irritability and impatience with anything remotely boring,  complete lack of guilt/remorse, being a lying liar who lies, etc., ad nauseum. Yes, there are unfortunate implications given the context, but I highly doubt any sort of crypto-conservatism or intentional malice is at work there.  Just a failure to think things through.

I agree in that the AY codex and portrayals are inspired by both anti-gay rhetoric as well as ASPD. But knowing that I still do not agree on the part where you believe that none of this is due to "intentional malice."

It is easy for BioWare to take the route which categorizes canon queer characters(those who are not 100% hetero) as being DEVIANTS beyond the so-called criminality of being just queer in the first place. It has been un-possible for BioWare to simply write well-adjusted canon queer characters who are in relationships that work with their same-sex partners. These are not one-off occasions. All of them have been written this way, and that cannot be a coincidence. If BioWare were intent on representing LGBT justly as most people here want to believe, BioWare would not bend every last S/S-relationship we stumble onto as failures, half the time owing to the ASPD you mentioned up above. Nor would they exclude human S/S relationships altogether in ME.

FYI, I'm talking about non-squadmate characters. As for squadmates, let me remind everyone that they've all been kept bisexual in order to remain accessible to heterosexual gamers, and not out of any respect towards queer gamers. Juhani's lesbianism can only be discovered via an unreliable bug, and she is not given a full romance nor is she human in any case.

In short, it is convenient for BioWare to cast us as being always worse off than heterosexuals. It's a willful pattern for them, and that is never for our benefit. It is for the "benefit" of people whose heads would explode over the idea of seeing queer people as functional individuals.

Modifié par Eromenos, 01 janvier 2011 - 05:38 .

[Eromenos]

Brodyaha wrote...

Do I see how having Morinth as a sex-killer alludes that same-sex relationships are abusive?
Honestly, no. Look at Liara and FemShep's romance, that's a positive one, you could say.

My emphasis was on the S/S npcs whom players may encounter even if not looking for any positive counterbalances. We know that some players are homophobic, while others are staunchly inclusive. People in the former crowd may avoid F/F and never even have to "worry" about M/M. Yet it's likely everyone will encounter Morinth in at least one playthrough. Regardless whether a player hates gay people or not, the revelation alone that Morinth's latest victim was a human girl will spark player-reaction.

One, the player might abandon the quest in a huff over F/F being forced on us, either from indignation out of homophobia or indignation over exploitation.

Two, the player more likely continues on the quest due to some level of curiosity over a rare and established S/S interaction in ME.

Either way, most people know for certain that S/S exists in ME thanks to this case, except that it ended with one partner murdering the other. For people like you and I, we know that finding "good" F/F relationships in ME is possible albeit limited to Liara, a non-human female who is professed by BioWare heads as being neither male or female in order for them to cover their own asses in the PR war of sound-bytes.

I do know that the Morinth/Nef episode would not cause people like you to view all F/F as abusive.   I should've been more clear in saying that "never for our benefit" also refers to straight people who wholeheartedly support queer visibility, not just queer people. As to that, let me re-emphasize another point. Morinth and Nef were not portrayed with any regards as to how WE might perceive them. WE do not matter to BioWare if we run counter to any interests they fear. Thus, gay-hating homophobes are the ones who matter to BioWare. That is why abusive and/or failed canon S/S relationships are the only kinds BioWare will allow into their products. It is why M/M is excluded entirely from ME. It is also why the sole example of human F/F is relegated to the insult embodied by Kelly Chambers. She was never intended to be respectful to lesbians, or for anyone's intelligence, really.

Modifié par Eromenos, 01 janvier 2011 - 07:48 .

[lazuli]

I think Nef's sex was chosen to illicit some primal desire to protect her (or avenge her) in the largely male player base, not out of any deliberate attempt to make same sex relationships look dangerous or unhealthy. Bioware can predict that a large portion of their player base will react in a given way based on a character's sex.

[Eromenos]

lazuli wrote...

I think Nef's sex was chosen to illicit some primal desire to protect her (or avenge her) in the largely male player base, not out of any deliberate attempt to make same sex relationships look dangerous or unhealthy. Bioware can predict that a large portion of their player base will react in a given way based on a character's sex.

If it was done completely ignorant to the concept of queer sensitivity, I'd say your supposition is the "nice" version for BioWare's motivations. It's more likely the real deciding factor in that scenario you've described is due to the fact most of the male players would look down upon any guy who loses to Morinth, a female. It's titillating for the males to think that they can do to or for Morinth what a girl tried but could not accomplish. It'd be a mood-killer for the boys to see and hear the dead boy who Morinth overpowered in a game most males like to believe they own.

It's also likely most but not all straight males are thanking BioWare for giving them a reason to unzip themselves at the thought of Nef with an asari.

I have to disagree with you regarding your possibility that BioWare wrote treacherous F/F in this instance without considering the implications it carries for queer people. We're hardly invisible or silent around these parts, along with plenty of straight gamers who support us. Knowing us but ignoring us simultaneously, BioWare chooses to play with our images by rendering all their established canon S/S relationships as unworkable disasters. And that's just regarding the npcs who exist outside of our heteronormative squads.

Modifié par Eromenos, 01 janvier 2011 - 08:10 .

[lazuli]

Eromenos wrote...
If it was done completely ignorant to the concept of queer sensitivity, I'd say your supposition is the "nice" version for BioWare's motivations. It's more likely the real deciding factor in that scenario you've described is due to the fact most of the male players would look down upon any guy who loses to Morinth, a female. It's titillating for the males to think that they can do to or for Morinth what a girl tried but could not accomplish. It'd be a mood-killer for the boys to see and hear the dead boy who Morinth overpowered in a game most males like to believe they own.

It's also likely most but not all straight males are thanking BioWare for giving them a reason to unzip themselves at the thought of Nef with an asari.

Wouldn't it affirm their masculinity to succeed where another male failed, though?  I just based my view of the significance of Nef's sex off of posts I've read reacting to Morinth.  One of the main reasons people don't like her is that she killed an innocent young woman, or "little girl" as she has been called.

[Eromenos]

lazuli wrote...

Wouldn't it affirm their masculinity to succeed where another male failed, though?  I just based my view of the significance of Nef's sex off of posts I've read reacting to Morinth.  One of the main reasons people don't like her is that she killed an innocent young woman, or "little girl" as she has been called.

Ah, I don't mean to say that your assertion was inaccurate. It is accurate, but that isn't the whole reason for Nef being female. Chivalry was not the primary factor.

Would it reinforce their sense of manliness to try and conquer Morinth in some way where a boy previously had failed? I'm sure. However, knowing that it was a girl who failed does not instill worry in them in any way that a boy's failure would. Girls unfortunately are often considered weaker and less capable in all avenues aside for disparaged qualities such as lying and manipulating. The type of mainstream boys ME2 caters to are the kind who won't entertain the thought that a female might best them at anything "worthwhile" such as physicality and sexuality, so these boys were not confronted by the possibility of witnessing a human teenage boy who lost everything to a female target.

As I've mentioned, F/F exploitation could not have been overlooked by the devs/writers regarding Morinth/Nef. That relationship was the perfect scenario for BioWare. The AY being a titillating extension of BioWare's asari creations in the first place, embodied in a whole sidequest geared around hourglass females who "will screw anything" in the eyes of the people ME2 catered to.

Unhealthy chivalry played its part. But so too did F/F exploitation at the expense of the queer community, and in open disregard for people who don't even have so much as a single S/S romance in ME2 aside for LotSB with a non-human whom BioWare is quick to claim as being neither female or male. It's so convenient for BioWare to combine tragedy/villainy with canon queer characters. Never as winners. Always undermined in addition to being outnumbered. Who are they really helping with that attitude?

Modifié par Eromenos, 01 janvier 2011 - 08:58 .

[lazuli]

There certainly seems to be a regrettable pattern established here. All the same, I am unwilling to subscribe to your theory that Bioware is intentionally and consciously attacking the queer community.

Edit: Grammar.

Modifié par lazuli, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:29 .

[Eromenos]

lazuli wrote...

There certainly seems to be a regrettable pattern established here. All the same, I am unwilling to prescribe to your theory that Bioware is intentionally and consciously attacking the queer community.

You misunderstand me.   BioWare isn't motivated by gay-hate of their own that they may or may not hold against the queer community. I'm referring to their negative depictions of us as being token gestures not meant for our benefit, despite many people's beliefs to the contrary. The effects of BioWare's actions are what I view as homophobic. Their intentions are not, but their repeated willingness to engage as such renders BioWare invalid for any excuses long ago. They must own their actions, they can be defined by them, so it's not a stretch for me at least to label them for what they do.

A lot of queer gamers and queer-friendly straight gamers believe that things like Liara and Morinth are somehow olive branches to us. I disagree on that. To me, these things are BioWare's attempt to impossibly garner favor from both ends of the spectrum. Homophobic people can stand to see canon S/S relationships crumble into disaster. Queer people unfortunately seem content to dine on such crumbs. All the while, the distribution of sexuality among squadmate relationships has been homophobic in a similar sense if we consider why a human Marine protagonist with an American accent is arbitrarily restricted from human M/M or F/F.

Modifié par Eromenos, 01 janvier 2011 - 10:43 .

[Eromenos]

Brodyaha wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
Homophobic people can stand to see canon S/S relationships crumble into disaster.

All gamers care about are the characters and LIs that they absolutely love.  I don't think that's homophobia, that's personal preference.  It just happens that there's no m/m romance available.  In that case, it's the fault of the ME developers, not the gamers.

Hmm, my point was that the homophobic gamers I mentioned are the reason for why the token established queer characters thus far are always consigned to failed relationships and/or death. These characters are not for your benefit or for mine, in spite of the supposed goodwill BioWare is extending to us...by creating "ANY" queer characters. To use an analogy some folks here might understand, Warlord Okeer's assessment of natural-born krogan is the same attitude I hold towards every last queer character BioWare has scrounged up.

Such characters are meant to garner goodwill from the segment of queer gamers and queer-friendly straight gamers who are too stupid to understand that they're purposefully being fed scraps which actually give more service to gay-hating people than for any of us.

I do agree about this being the fault of ME devs and writers.  They push through lots of things that people have issues with, since many people are never apt to agree. This one just happens to be the one that matters most to me. It's within BioWare's power and knowledge to do better in this area, but their failings have not been accidents when we consider how long and often people have been asking.

I personally do not think that the accent thing is related to the restriction of m/m and f/f romances.
Meer's from Edmonton and close to headquarters where Mass Effect is being developed (at least, I think it is Edmonton).  I don't know when BioWare started making offices in Montreal, Austin, and Ireland, but it would make sense to scout out talent within your own area to diminish paying for travel costs to do voice work.
Jennifer Hale happens to be one of the most talented voice actors out there, and BioWare obviously saw her potential after she voiced Bastila.

IMO, I think that the fantasy genre in general is obsessed with Awesome Accent Syndrome and Tolkein Syndrome.  In pretty much every fantasy movie I've seen, most of them take place in the middle ages in a nation which is a definite substitute for Britain, and speak in accents which are definitely not (North) American.

Sorry, you took me too literally.   What I mean is that because both John and Jane Shepard were written and cast in such a way as to appeal foremost to American audiences, BioWare bowed to homophobia that surrounds the U.S. military and its bastion of bigotry towards the queer community. This is not to say that all servicemembers are homophobic, but even with DADT being recently repealed the process will not be over till roughly the same period as when ME3 rolls out. During this time it is still a danger for servicemembers to come out while the law remains in effect. But regardless of DADT, I think we can all understand that the American military is looked upon, rightly or wrongly, as an expression of moral and physical apexes. These include still its tradition of mistreating queer people. The Alliance military in ME is undoubtedly a reflection/projection of the U.S. forces. The in-game manifestations matter more than the disclaimer codexes. In the case of AY, in-game occurrences and codex entries were unfortunately meshed with each other.

Whether a homophobic person is actually in uniform or simply a wannabe, BioWare bows to such opinions that work against queer people. It's never about how we see ourselves. Instead, it's always been BioWare's intent to relay the "concerns" other people tend to have about us.

Modifié par Eromenos, 02 janvier 2011 - 04:04 .

[mr138]

No one in the demographic that plays these games cares if two virtual dudes/chicks want to go at it. Grandpa Rightwing isn't going to buy this anyways, so who cares about his opinion.



Also, afaik, the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is on it's way to getting revoked. Turns out gay people can shoot guns and kill people as well as straights like me. Great, let them join, and make females have to register when they turn 18 like guys do.



Know who doesn't want to ever get drafted?

<----this guy.

[lazuli]

mr138 wrote...

No one in the demographic that plays these games cares if two virtual dudes/chicks want to go at it. Grandpa Rightwing isn't going to buy this anyways, so who cares about his opinion.

As much as I wish this were true, there is even evidence on these forums that there are gamers who do care and do not want to see s/s relationships.

And, Eromenos, thank you for clarifying.

[War Houndoom]

So hypothetically if the DLC will be about the VS then is it possible they might include homosexual relationships in it?

[Uszi]

lazuli wrote...

mr138 wrote...

No one in the demographic that plays these games cares if two virtual dudes/chicks want to go at it. Grandpa Rightwing isn't going to buy this anyways, so who cares about his opinion.

As much as I wish this were true, there is even evidence on these forums that there are gamers who do care and do not want to see s/s relationships.

And, Eromenos, thank you for clarifying.

There certainly are... But at the same time, no one is forcing anyone to participate in s/s content.  Yes, there is a portion of this games player base --- which is not well represented on this forum, mind you --- that would have a serious problem with s/s content.  But in the end, the arguments of this demographic are void, because no one is forcing them to participate in the s/s content.  It doesn't matter if it's possible, what matters is what you make your Shephard do.

That being said, I think that the demographics number crunchers and the PR people at Bioware will probably sink their heels in on this one.  They already have a publicly stated and defended position that they will not include s/s romances.  I don't think something said in this forum will convince them otherwise.

[EpicGamerMonkey]

I may be straight, but I support gay relationships in ME3.



Having the option to pursue the same sex as MaleShep/ FemShep can't hurt anyone because you can chose to pursue it or not. It's all your decision, and not being forced.



Besides, there's an obvious "lesbian" relationship going on if you chose to pursue Kelly as FemShep. Why not allow MaleShep pursue Thane? Or maybe even Garrus?

[Eromenos]

Uszi wrote...

That being said, I think that the demographics number crunchers and the PR people at Bioware will probably sink their heels in on this one.  They already have a publicly stated and defended position that they will not include s/s romances.  I don't think something said in this forum will convince them otherwise.

Ah yes, I recall something to that nature...BioWare's weak lie about concentrating less on sexuality than DAO did, as their reason for not allowing the existence of canon human S/S for ME.

Shyeah, about that.

Strippers. Ardat-Yakshi. Miranda. Jack. Samara. Morinth. Jacob. Thane. Fornax. Garrus. Tali. Gianna. Shiala.

Kelly Chambers.

Some stranger named Aria suggesting we shack up with opposite-sex annoynmous.

That there ME2 certainly downplayed all hints of sexuality compared to DAO. Which is to say, BioWare shrank back from any and all M/M for a story wherein the protagonist is an American marine.

Modifié par Eromenos, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:07 .

[ElitePinecone]

War Houndoom wrote...

So hypothetically if the DLC will be about the VS then is it possible they might include homosexual relationships in it?

It's always possible, yeah. It may cause some issues with an ME3 import if only some people have the DLC, but it's certainly an option. 

[Owl-sama]

I guess BioWare might be regretting making such diverse options in dragon age, now some fans are expecting these same things in their other titles.



We as fans cant demand anything, just suggest. They are not obliged in any way to change their game. Their artistic vision should be maintained, even if you don't agree with it.

[Eromenos]

Owl-sama wrote...

I guess BioWare might be regretting making such diverse options in dragon age, now some fans are expecting these same things in their other titles.

We as fans cant demand anything, just suggest. They are not obliged in any way to change their game. Their artistic vision should be maintained, even if you don't agree with it.

Why, in that case Kelly Chambers ought to have been one of their submissions for Character of the Year. Clearly, BioWare devoted much effort so that she might exemplify their artistic vision.

[Sashimi_taco]

I offer my support. I don't see why there cannot be homosexual relationships in ME. We already have liara, and lets face it she is pretty much a female. I usually play as femshep, but if they made kaidan a love interest for maleshep, i might play as a maleshep for a round or two (because it would be totally hot).