9243 réponses à ce sujet

[ElitePinecone]

Owl-sama wrote...
We as fans cant demand anything, just suggest. They are not obliged in any way to change their game. Their artistic vision should be maintained, even if you don't agree with it.

This thread is only ever a forum for suggestions, just like every other topic in these forums that asks for more vehicle combat, more alien squadmates, more guns or 35 hours of alien bewbs. Making demands is not only futile, but potentially harmful to any reasoned point we're trying to make. So yes, I agree that we have no grounds to demand anything or expect any obligation from Bioware. The point must be suggested through the good ideas and community support that rise out of threads like this one. 

[General9999]

[Edit: Comment removed. For the record, it is never okay to wish death upon any group of people on these forums unless they are the fictional villains of Mass Effect. Thank you. - Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 03 janvier 2011 - 03:29 .

[Sahariel]

Restating for the record I'm for S/S relationships in ME3, just regarding the Morinth/Nef relationship in ME2. I don't think people should read any homophobic intent from the devs on that one. If a homophobe decides to read into that as per thier own agenda, then well they were homophobic anyway.



The situation as I see it is that according to some, homosexual/bi characters should be seen as lighter than light, saintly, perfect and free from any negative stain you could choose to mention. To do otherwise is apparently inciting hatred towards the gay community. Well newsflash everybody sins, and to imply that some section of the population doesn't is just patently absurd.



What I will be willing to consider is that if someone can show that it is because Morinth engages in same sex relationships that she is evil and commits murder then I would be inclined to agree there is a negative agenda being pushed. However it is thanks to a rare genetic condition among a race of naturally bi aliens and as such her sexuality has nothing to do with it.



If we are at a stage where we cannot include all religions, sexualities, races, creeds etc in stories as potentially being heir to the same evils and weaknesses that plague all of human kind, if there is one group that has the right to be so incensed at the inclusion of a member of their group in the ranks of villans and evil doers then I am afraid you are making a compelling argument for just removing all reference of same sex situations from media entirely for fear of offense.



And to reiterate again for the hard of reading, Showing a character is evil BECAUSE they are gay or bi is obviously wrong and to be condemned. Showing a character is evil as well as being gay or bi is not. It is the causative element that is key.



You can bang on about what is implied or inferred all you like, but to ask Bioware to write a story that portrays gay and bisexual characters realistically (ie having both good and evil individuals), yet without causing offense, by what could be possibly inferred by said characters actions is like asking someone to make a cambric shirt without no seams nor needlework.



The only alternative we are being offered is to show ALL gay/bi characters conducting themselves to the highest possible standard of human behaviour at all times lest we risk the ire of anyone who could ever possibly be offended. But hang on lets make it fair, lets make sure all races and religions aren't offended either, oh and genders, so we can't show men or women in a negative light at all. Oh wait we've suddenly removed all potential conflict from the narrative.... Pity that.

[Eddo36]

Pacifien wrote...

[Edit: Comment removed. For the record, it is never okay to wish death upon any group of people on these forums unless they are the fictional villains of Mass Effect. Thank you. - Pacifien]

I don't get it. You can't wish death on certain fictional characters? Or was he making death threats to posters here? Please clarify, thanks.

Modifié par Eddo36, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:41 .

[HolyMoogle]

I haven't been on the forums much lately, so I was just wondering if a few little things could be ironed out for me in regards to S/S romances in Mass Effect. This seems like the right thread...


1) M/M romances are recorded for ME1, and then in-game access to them is presumably cut at the last minute

2) Around the time of ME1's release, a developer who is quite a prolific blogger and may or may not have just recently left Bioware (can't remember his name) posted in the forums that he was personally saddened that M/M romances couldn't be included, but resource constraints made it so. At this time, I wasn't yet aware the romances had actually been recorded, and he made no mention of it. Did he know they had been recorded? Was he lying?

3) ME2 removes all traces of M/M romances (and possibly F/F? I haven't played it recently)

4) Bioware founders undermine every piece of marketing created for the ME universe by essentially claiming that M-Shep can't be gay, he's *their* character.

Has any/all of these points been sorted out and explained? Just seems like a big, tangled, kinda dodgy mess to me.

Modifié par HolyMoogle, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:49 .

[jethead]

sahariel, that is beautifully written. however, look at bi females in me2: kelly, a lovely friendly crewmember that you get to rescue. why not a male crewmember for guys? morinth, a naturally bi alien murderer. i'm quite sure no gay would ever get offended about thane being gay. thane's a murderer, but that's how he was raised, not even his choice.
in fact, it doesn't seem so difficult to create a love interest that is rather likeable, films and games do it on the daily basis and literature did it for thousands of years.

[edit] erm, today, being sober, i can see you addressed claims that morinth was offensive to lgbt community, and i must agree with every word you wrote. apologies for confusion.

Modifié par jethead, 04 janvier 2011 - 05:27 .

[ElitePinecone]

HolyMoogle wrote...

I haven't been on the forums much lately, so I was just wondering if a few little things could be ironed out for me in regards to S/S romances in Mass Effect. This seems like the right thread...

1) M/M romances are recorded for ME1, and then in-game access to them is presumably cut at the last minute

2) Around the time of ME1's release, a developer who is quite a prolific blogger and may or may not have just recently left Bioware (can't remember his name) posted in the forums that he was personally saddened that M/M romances couldn't be included, but resource constraints made it so. At this time, I wasn't yet aware the romances had actually been recorded, and he made no mention of it. Did he know they had been recorded? Was he lying?

3) ME2 removes all traces of M/M romances (and possibly F/F? I haven't played it recently)

4) Bioware founders undermine every piece of marketing created for the ME universe by essentially claiming that M-Shep can't be gay, he's *their* character.

Has any/all of these points been sorted out and explained? Just seems like a big, tangled, kinda dodgy mess to me.

1 is certainly true, beyond doubt. 

I've never heard of your second point, some Bioware developers may have been personally dissatisfied with the decision, but as far as I know nothing was posted on the forums. If you can find the link it'd be very interesting. 

Whether or not M/M or (non-Kelly) F/F romances were developed for ME2 is (to me) uncertain, some have found audio files for some characters that suggest such romances were originally planned. I've also seen more than one claim that there was some kind of high-up decision to remove said romances somewhere along the development process; these claims can't be proved and such cutting probably happens all the time. 

4 is tricky. The actual quote (from Ray Muzyka) was "For some other franchises we’ve had more defined characters and sort of approaches to things, and they’ve had a more defined personality and a more defined approach to the way they’ve proceed through the game and the world." This was in the middle of a fairly haphazard paragraph of marketing jargon, I don't think either Ray or Casey Hudson expected the question. Chris Priestly (our overlord and master) then said a while back that Shepard, in fact, wasn't a defined character after all. 

Rather obviously, most would regard Shepard's "pre-defined worldview" as farcical. When morality, background, personality and so on are extensively malleable, claiming that a player-created character has a distinct (straight?) way of approaching the world appears to make little sense. Of course it's Bioware's (and Ray's) prerogative to say anything about their own product, and create or withhold anything within their own product. 

Eddo36 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

[Edit: Comment removed. For the record, it is never okay to wish death upon any group of people on these forums unless they are the fictional villains of Mass Effect. Thank you. - Pacifien]

I don't get it. You can't wish death on certain fictional characters? Or was he making death threats to posters here? Please clarify, thanks.

The post was a suggestion of extermination for a particular group of people, followed by an insult. I'm sure you can guess the subject. 

[Sahariel]

jethead wrote...

sahariel, that is beautifully written. however, look at bi females in me2: kelly, a lovely friendly crewmember that you get to rescue. why not a male crewmember for guys? morinth, a naturally bi alien murderer. i'm quite sure no gay would ever get offended about thane being gay. thane's a murderer, but that's how he was raised, not even his choice.
in fact, it doesn't seem so difficult to create a love interest that is rather likeable, films and games do it on the daily basis and literature did it for thousands of years.

Thank you, I try and be as eloquent as I can. I'm completely on your side, no problem with a friendly bi male crewmate you can rescue. I was mainly responding to earlier posts in this thread that when people raised the perfectly valid point (as you just did) that there are positive lgbt individuals in the game. Some people were very quick to grasp at straws and point at Morinth as at worst part of some sort of sinister agenda against the gay community or simply that without thinking they had produced a character that would cement anti gay senitment. My post was pointing out the absurdity in that position.

Peace.

[jethead]

ha! managed to edit my post just 3 mins before your reply. ninja'd!

[Princess_Ozma]

Hi...



Well I'm deffinitly in favour for this, I'm a pan-sexual trans-woman and I almost always play lesbian characters (it takes a very special guy to get my notice and Liara had me falling in love with her sheltered lonely Archeologist-bit in the first game anway)...



While I love that there was still the option to be in love with Liara in the second game, and thank you Bioware for having that be somewhat fullfilled with LotSB, and I found Kelly to be really interesting in the second game because her views on sexuality are a lot like my own (I admit I've been somewhat unfaithful to Liara though I'm still her woman)...



I did hate the Kelly Dance though... it was just augh, most girls don't like that.



Anyway got a bit de-railed... oh yes, there deffinitly need to be more gay in Mass Effect, all the excuses for it's exclusion are rather weak.



I didn't mind the guys hitting on me though, it was fun to turn Kaiden down...

[massive_effect]

Gay relationships bear no fruit. They are purely self-serving. So, I don't want that to be glorified in my games.

[Princess_Ozma]

massive_effect wrote...

Gay relationships bear no fruit. They are purely self-serving. So, I don't want that to be glorified in my games.

So the only reason for straight people to have sex is pro-creation? That really doesn't seem to be how it plays out in Mass Effect... Sex is mentioned as stress relief (with Garrus).

There are advantages to relationships other then child rearing, economic, spiritual, emotional,  and of course a gay couple can raise a child (and hey an a Asari-female couple can even have a child of their own).

If Shepard romances an opposite sex partner they don't "bear fruit", so should that be taken out of your game?

[Wittand25]

massive_effect wrote...

Gay relationships bear no fruit. They are purely self-serving. So, I don't want that to be glorified in my games.

Tali, Garrus and Thane romances are fruitless to. The first two even have the possibility to be lethal to one or both of the participants because of the completly different gentetic setup so I do not see your point here.

[fflamingmoe]

I support same sex in games 100%
I like playing as a female because it's deffrent.
I'm a gamer of 48 years,and a man that likes women.
Yes i'm married at 48 years old and will play video games till i croak.
And to have this game rated at 17+ is a joke.
The romance was rushed at best.
And i guess it will take some time for gaming to grow out of the fascism.
They didn't hide the art work in dante's inferno,and GOW.
All they had to do was add a little realism with showing a little chest in ME 2.
Because to me,the romance just looked rushed and out of place.
They could have added a little skin without showing any frontal nudity at all to make it look a little more Realistic.
The ShadowBroker DLC was rushed too for the kiddies.
The slap on Liara's but didn't seem to fit the mood of the scene either.
I guess we still have a problem with natural sexuality.
I say if your going to add romance,add a little skin in a game because if not,It just looks bad and out of place.
Or you just don't add it at all.
I think Kelly's dance was the best out of all of them all.
And this is just my opinion though,not hating or anything guy's and gals.

Modifié par fflamingmoe, 05 janvier 2011 - 10:24 .

[Princess_Ozma]

Romance and skin don't have to go together... but it's a little odd that the first game had nudity and the second one dropped it.

[fflamingmoe]

A couple of examples:
scene#1 (Miranda) Unzipping to see a bra?and cloths on having sex?
scene#2 (Tali) We didn't even see her face?Not even a kiss?
scene#3 (Tiara) Din't even fit the scene.
it's the investors and media, politics.
I guess the game artists will never get the respect they deserve.

Modifié par fflamingmoe, 05 janvier 2011 - 11:04 .

[Princess_Ozma]

fflamingmoe wrote...

A couple of examples:
scene#1 (Miranda) Unzipping to see a bra?and cloths on having sex?
scene#2 (Tali) We didn't even see her face?Not even a kiss?
scene#3 (Tiara) Didn't even fit the scene.

I will admit fully clothed ship lying down in bed with latex wearing Kelly was really weird, so you might have a point... you can have a romance without having nudity but the scenes in ME2 are a little weird cause they go halfway.

I've only seen the Kelly and Liara scenes though.

[fflamingmoe]

Princess_Ozma wrote...

fflamingmoe wrote...

A couple of examples:
scene#1 (Miranda) Unzipping to see a bra?and cloths on having sex?
scene#2 (Tali) We didn't even see her face?Not even a kiss?
scene#3 (Tiara) Didn't even fit the scene.

I will admit fully clothed ship lying down in bed with latex wearing Kelly was really weird, so you might have a point... you can have a romance without having nudity but the scenes in ME2 are a little weird cause they go halfway.

I've only seen the Kelly and Liara scenes though.

I agree with you 100%
You don't even need nudity,but it must fit the scene.
I'm just saying if your going to have a sexual scene in the game,do it right with out nudity.
If your going to add sex in the scene add skin to make it beleivable without frontal.or with frontal.
As long as it looks and feels right.
We must stink in space without underware lol.

Modifié par fflamingmoe, 05 janvier 2011 - 10:53 .

[Direwolf0294]

I'd like more same sex romances in the game if only it isn't turning character already in the series into bi. If for example a DLC came out that made Jacob bi I would be against it. If a DLC came out that added a new squad member who was bi or gay I would be for it. The only exception would be a DLC to make Samara romanceable.

[ElitePinecone]

I just took a look at our sister thread of sorts over in the Dragon Age II forums - I haven't checked it for a while, and it tends to get a fair amount of feedback from Bioware staff members about same-sex romances. Very unfortunately, the thread was locked yesterday after a gigantic and spiralling mega-debate over whether or not Bioware were being deliberately homophobic in their portrayal of romances in some of their games. Needless to say, it'd be great if we could avoid any similar fate for this thread in the future. 

This is just a friendly reminder to keep the debate centered on the fictional world of Mass Effect and its characters, and how we would (or would not) like to see same-sex romances implemented (or not implemented). Reading the responses in that thread from Bioware staff, which they were not obligated to write, gives a heap of insight into the sorts of (very real) constraints that influence what can and can't make it into a 21st century video game. We can argue for the inclusion of certain content without branding an entire company as prejudiced or unfeeling. 

That being said...

Sahariel wrote...
It is the causative element that is key.

I think the depiction of Ardat-Yakshi is one of the more interesting fictional tidbits that Bioware have dreamed up over the years. They have obvious tragic elements (a fate determined by genetics, no control over their lives, forced into a monastry, and so on) but at the same time Morinth is shown as implacably 'evil'. As you say, the fact that Morinth's primary relationship was with Nef is incidental to her 'baddie' nature - she tries to seduce a male or female Shepard, after all, and can kill him/her. The Samara/Morinth story arc was one of the more engaging storylines in ME2, almost an anti-romance option for Shepard. 

[Princess_Ozma]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I'd like more same sex romances in the game if only it isn't turning character already in the series into bi. If for example a DLC came out that made Jacob bi I would be against it. If a DLC came out that added a new squad member who was bi or gay I would be for it. The only exception would be a DLC to make Samara romanceable.

See I have no problem with the idea of "turning someone bi," have you ever heard of the TV Trope "Bi the Way"?

The thing is with a lot of bi people it's not obvious are bi, unless it somehow comes up. Most of us don't make a big deal of it because, why would we? People either assume we're straight or gay depending on who we're dating when they meet us (or who we are more openly attracted too).

Jack practically declares her bi-sexuality early on, we know she was part of a polyamarous triade for a while until she was betrayed by them. Tali says she'd be comfortable linking suit enviroments with femshep but never follows that statement up. Either could be made bi...

I heard some of the guys were originally planned as bi so they could be re-implemented.

[Sahariel]

massive_effect wrote...

Gay relationships bear no fruit. They are purely self-serving. So, I don't want that to be glorified in my games.

Every relationship includes elements of selfishness within them. We engage in relationships because certain people make us feel good, or perhaps we enjoy making others feel good either way we derive a benefit. Maybe we simply want to avoid being alone. In fact every human action you could care to mention has to go through the lense of the self and hence to some extent can be deemed selfish.

As bleak as that might sound, and this is where love comes in incidentally we can extend our sense of self to identify with other things. Be it a nation (patriotism), a religion (devotion), or a person (love). In the case of the first two what are the fruits? A safer, secure country in which to live, faith and hope. The benefits are staggering. Now in the case of loving people, the fruits are companionship, support, affection, and passion to name just a few.

I suspect massive_effect you suffer from little more than a little closed mindedness (and who hasn't at some stage?  I know I have), so I impore you just in the privacy of your own mind open your heart just a little. See people as people and not just condemn them for their actions. Meditate on what love actually is and means and you will see it as clearly in the lgbt community as within any other demographic. If it is something you trully cannot tolerate and you hate it that much you can't see it in your games, well there are plenty of other games out there that do not contain such content.

Peace.

[massive_effect]

Sahariel wrote...

I suspect massive_effect you suffer from little more than a little closed mindedness (and who hasn't at some stage?  I know I have), so I impore you just in the privacy of your own mind open your heart just a little.

By what authority are you speaking regarding your ideology of "close mindedness vs an open mind"? To whom or what would I open my heart?

[Pacifien]

massive_effect wrote...
By what authority are you speaking regarding your ideology of "close mindedness vs an open mind"? To whom or what would I open my heart?

Only you have the answers to those questions, so if you feel someone has an incorrect interpretation of who you are, you can either set the record straight by providing them with more context or you can move on.