9243 réponses à ce sujet

[TopcatPlayer]

massive_effect wrote...

My point was that morality is very real. Ideas are very real. Whole nations have been formed and gone to war over morality and ideas. Ideas and morals must come from some authority.

You are suggesting that each man has his own truth. Whatever he makes up in his perverted imagination is true. I am saying that the truth must be sought without fear.

A simple truth which I have sought and found is every child in the history of the world is born to one mom and one dad. This means they were born from "straight" parents, thus nobody is born gay or lesbian. Being gay or lesbian is an immoral choice that is made on a temporary or life-long basis. If it is a life-long endeavor, such gay and lesbian relationships bear no fruit. The only way to bear friut is to reject that lifestyle choice, and find someone of the opposite sex.

Each individual makes their own choice based on who they are. You make your choices based on your beliefs, so does everyone else. In this game, choices are made, for better or for worse, but they are your choices to make. You inform who Shepard is and will become and your decisions shape the universe. Feel like being a bigot to other alien races, let the council die and be ruled by humans. Still hold a grudge with Turians over the 1st contact war? Act mean to Garrus. In a game centred around the gimmick of total emmersion into informing the moral choices of the main character to the point of reshaping the galaxy to not have a choice to define said characters sexual orientation is like hitting a wall and just stagnating into a place of semi-immersion.

And hey, i'm not even gay. I wouldn't even choose to make Shepard gay, but knowing the option isn't even there makes the game feel buttoned down and constrained by someone else's ideals instead of my own and the intire immersive quality of the game is lost.

Also your comment on relationships having to *ahem* bear fruit? Say a straight couple were in love but one of them was sterile/barren, does that mean they shouldn't be together? Because you're basically saying the only union between 2 people should be 1 made with the intention or expectation that they're gonna be making babies.

Also being gay isn't a lifestyle choice, accepting or refusing to accept gays as legitmate people is. Your arguement that every parent is straight is false too. Gay women have had IVF, and Gay men have donated. Not every child is born to one mum and one dad. Some women die in childbirth, some men are rapists or leave their families prior to the birth of the child. Do you block out these "simple truths" because you believe ignoring things you dont like will negate their existance?

Seeing things in absolutes, while being afraid to look from all angles, makes people bigoted. Dont fall into a trap of becoming what you yourself have warned against.  "Truth must be sought without fear"

[Gemini1179]

TopcatPlayer wrote...


And hey, i'm not even gay. I wouldn't even choose to make Shepard gay, but knowing the option isn't even there makes the game feel buttoned down and constrained by someone else's ideals instead of my own and the intire immersive quality of the game is lost.

My opinion as well. This is all that needs to be said.

[Siansonea]

massive_effect wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

massive_effect wrote...
By what authority are you speaking regarding your ideology of "close mindedness vs an open mind"? To whom or what would I open my heart?

Only you have the answers to those questions, so if you feel someone has an incorrect interpretation of who you are, you can either set the record straight by providing them with more context or you can move on.

I didn't know that a moderator was allowed to take sides.

My point was that morality is very real. Ideas are very real. Whole nations have been formed and gone to war over morality and ideas. Ideas and morals must come from some authority.

You are suggesting that each man has his own truth. Whatever he makes up in his perverted imagination is true. I am saying that the truth must be sought without fear.

A simple truth which I have sought and found is every child in the history of the world is born to one mom and one dad. This means they were born from "straight" parents, thus nobody is born gay or lesbian. Being gay or lesbian is an immoral choice that is made on a temporary or life-long basis. If it is a life-long endeavor, such gay and lesbian relationships bear no fruit. The only way to bear friut is to reject that lifestyle choice, and find someone of the opposite sex.

Basically what you're saying is that only you have the acute perceptive nature to be able to discern what is "absolutely true" for the rest of us. Sorry, wrong answer. Just because something seems like a "simple truth" to you doesn't mean that you can't arrive at a completely off-base conclusion as a result.

I can't even begin to address how full of fail this is. I'm glad you're not actually in charge of anything.

[Uszi]

Massive_effect is this thread's most successful troll.

+1 golden interwebs



How's about Bioware make some sort of announcement about this issue in ME3 so we have something concrete to discuss instead of spewing poison?

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

How's about Bioware make some sort of announcement about this issue in ME3 so we have something concrete to discuss instead of spewing poison?

The game was announced.  They haven't talked about romances at ALL yet, much less any new ones. It's probably wishful thinking at this point. If it wasn't in the first two, it's probably not in this one. It's nice to speculate when could have been, though.

[DrBobcat]

Brief deviation: I've been working on a thread overview/review for about a week now. In it, I'm revisiting the OP and trying to steer the discussion back to its roots (chiefly, discussing the problem at hand and formulating solutions while avoiding sociopolitical commentary and finger pointing). Given how much of an undertaking it's become, I'd like to get some feedback before I continue. Please tell me whether you'd think this sort of thing would be helpful.

- - - - - -

RE: The Ardat-Yakshi, Nef/Morinth, and Depictions of S/S Relationships in ME

The debate rages on, it seems. Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I do not believe that Bioware deliberately tried to cast S/S relationships in a negative light with their inclusion of Nef and Morinth. Morinth is a sexual predator, plain and simple, and preys on vulnerable individuals regardless of their species or sex (this is made clear on numerous occassions, especially when Shepard visits her apartment). Nef was young, shy, and naive. She lived in a rundown apartment that's within walking distance to a large variety of seedy establishments (merc hideouts, blackmarket weapon dealers, and nightclubs). I'm surprised something didn't happen to her sooner, to be honest. She was the perfect target for someone as experienced as Morinth. Man or woman, it's unlikely the outcome would've been any different.

However, seeing as this is one of the very few S/S relationships depicted in Mass Effect, I am still left with an unpleasant taste in my mouth. There really isn't any good to balance out the bad. Yet, maybe it's just as David Gaider alluded to in the DA2 forum: Bioware writers have an addiction to tragedy. Virtually every relationship in their games ends on a sour note, regardless of its format. However, because S/S relationships are so uncommon in ME (when compared to their other games), any catastrophes that do befall them are much more apparent. Not to mention, such occurrences are probably going to be noticed by those who are actively looking for them. This means that GLBTs and homophobes alike are more likely to take note of these experiences and to reflect on them. Obviously, this isn't good. GLBTs will feel out-of-place and even victimized at times, while homophobes are able to scrounge up more "evidence" for their beliefs.

I want to be perfectly clear, however. I am not accusing Bioware of being homophobic. That would be a ridiculous claim to make given the company's history. Even so, I do believe the matter has been handled recklessly and I am disappointed with the excuses given thus far. I'm hoping that they have taken note of how important this is to us. Maybe they're too busy doing some work behind-the-scenes and want to keep it secret? Heh. Probably just wishful thinking. 

Modifié par DrBobcat, 07 janvier 2011 - 05:30 .

[MillaShepard]

I believe any situation like the example you've used here can be taken out of context easily by GLBT's and homophobes alike. I think it's important to remember that even if Bioware's intentions were to make everyone happy (in this way perhaps) they would of course achieve the exact opposite. Because it is not possible to make everyone happy. And it never will be.

[Princess_Ozma]

I agree with your take on Morinth it wasn't supposed to be upsetting but is to some because it resembles an old trope... take a look on google for lesbian pulp novels they were all the vulnerable young girl being enamored with the sophisticated older woman leading to a tragic end.

[TopcatPlayer]

I dont think there's really anything to the Morinth is bad caus she's bi. Also, they've had a possitive depiction of bisexuality with Liara. And technically Asari aren't really bi caus Asari aren't 1 gender, they're both. They just appear female. And seeing as though gender isn't a big thing for them they wouldn't see it as different. Maybe as a representation of bisexuality i guess. There are plenty of evil straight characters and it's not the fact that she's bi that makes her evil.

[Drowsy0106]

I support this thread.


I can't believe this is even a issue. I was surprised i couldn't romance Tali on my femshep in ME1 & 2.

Only in America i guess...

Modifié par Drowsy0106, 08 janvier 2011 - 01:11 .

[FaildTCnect]

This.

You are sooo right .

[fflamingmoe]

TopcatPlayer wrote...

I dont think there's really anything to the Morinth is bad caus she's bi. Also, they've had a possitive depiction of bisexuality with Liara. And technically Asari aren't really bi caus Asari aren't 1 gender, they're both. They just appear female. And seeing as though gender isn't a big thing for them they wouldn't see it as different. Maybe as a representation of bisexuality i guess. There are plenty of evil straight characters and it's not the fact that she's bi that makes her evil.

I couldn't stop laughing.hahahahahah
That just sound so cool..........i'm for it,boing......LMAO.
sorry i didn't get enough sleep today.

Modifié par fflamingmoe, 08 janvier 2011 - 06:02 .

[DrBobcat]

MillaShepard wrote...

I believe any situation like the example you've used here can be taken out of context easily by GLBT's and homophobes alike. I think it's important to remember that even if Bioware's intentions were to make everyone happy (in this way perhaps) they would of course achieve the exact opposite. Because it is not possible to make everyone happy. And it never will be.

I completely agree with your point that subjectivity plays a significant role in all of this. Also, I agree that trying to satisfy everyone is an exercise in futility. Even so, I want to make a point. There is no benefit, I believe, in appeasing homophobes, yet only benefit in making more inclusive games. And while inclusivity does not need to be considered in every title, I believe it does have a place in this one.

TopcatPlayer wrote...

I dont think there's really anything to the Morinth is bad caus she's bi. Also, they've had a possitive depiction of bisexuality with Liara. And technically Asari aren't really bi caus Asari aren't 1 gender, they're both. They just appear female. And seeing as though gender isn't a big thing for them they wouldn't see it as different. Maybe as a representation of bisexuality i guess. There are plenty of evil straight characters and it's not the fact that she's bi that makes her evil.

Whether the Asari are a monogendered species has been brought up many times in this thread. The general consensus is that they are female in all the ways that are relevant here. When other species refer to an Asari, they always use feminine pronouns. Their physical appearance, the way they move, and the manner in which they speak are all distinctly feminine. For all intents and purposes, they are female.

In regards to Morinth, I'll just reiterate my original point. I don't believe Bioware is implying that Morinth is evil because she is bisexual. That's not where the "unpleasant taste" comes from. My disappointment stems from the fact that this relationship is one of so very few of its type presented in the game. Sure, as you pointed out, there is femShep's relationship with Liara and I agree that it seems quite healthy by comparison. Yet, beyond that (and Nef/Morinth), there's virtually nothing to speak of. The next best thing we have is a (very) brief video clip of Preitor Gavorn sitting on a bed while in the company of a human male.

Remember, Gavorn is a minor character and has no involvement in the plot whatsoever. We are only able to view this footage after completing optional DLC and only if we take advantage of a feature most probably do not. And seeing how most of the LotSB video clips are superficial in nature, I doubt any of the information in them is canon. It's "filler" content. Nothing more.

EDIT: Sorry, TopcatPlayer, if my response comes across as a lecture. I failed to read some of your earlier posts and took you for an opponent, not a supporter playing devil's advocate. Thanks for the help. In fact, I thank everyone who goes out of their way to voice their approval. Every bit helps!

Modifié par DrBobcat, 08 janvier 2011 - 03:57 .

[darkchaz]

I support this thread ^^

Modifié par darkchaz, 08 janvier 2011 - 03:31 .

[MillaShepard]

[[ququote]DrBobcat wrote...

MillaShepard wrote...

I believe any situation like the example you've used here can be taken out of context easily by GLBT's and homophobes alike. I think it's important to remember that even if Bioware's intentions were to make everyone happy (in this way perhaps) they would of course achieve the exact opposite. Because it is not possible to make everyone happy. And it never will be.

I completely agree with your point that subjectivity plays a significant role in all of this. Also, I agree that trying to satisfy everyone is an exercise in futility. Even so, I want to make a point. There is no benefit, I believe, in appeasing homophobes, yet only benefit in making more inclusive games. And while inclusivity does not need to be considered in every title, I believe it does have a place in this one.

You're right, and I should have made myself more clear in my original post.  I stick to what i've written here, but would also like to say that i support what you've said (a great deal) and will continue to show my support for what I believe in and what I know is right. 

"And while inclusivity does not need to be considered in every title, I believe it does have a place in this one."
Your words... Well said.

[Theodoro]

I can't people actually support this. Seriously, same sex entanglements ruin the uniqueness of the romance itself. Take the one with Liara, for example. Whether you're playing a male or female Shepard the romance is absolutely the same. I'd figure that there would at least be unique dialogue depending on the gender. I wouldn't want that for the other love interests.

[Ryzaki]

Then you're more against recycled dialogue for both genders. honestly while Sky had his his flaws I loved the fact that his romance was different from the M/F version. Much different. It was quite refreshing.

[Uszi]

Ryzaki wrote...

Then you're more against recycled dialogue for both genders. honestly while Sky had his his flaws I loved the fact that his romance was different from the M/F version. Much different. It was quite refreshing.

Theodoro wrote...

I can't people actually support this.
Seriously, same sex entanglements ruin the uniqueness of the romance
itself. Take the one with Liara, for example. Whether you're playing a
male or female Shepard the romance is absolutely the same. I'd figure
that there would at least be unique dialogue depending on the gender. I
wouldn't want that for the other love interests.

Er, I always assumed that proponents of the system were hoping we'd pick up a new LI that was specifically geared for same sex romance.  I'm not sure I support all love interest characters being romanceable by manshep and femshep.  While we can endlessly debate that we should be able to choose our player-character's orientations, I don't think the same argument applies to the NPCs and other set pieces in the narrative.

Modifié par Uszi, 08 janvier 2011 - 09:16 .

[Eromenos]

Sahariel wrote...

Restating for the record I'm for S/S relationships in ME3, just regarding the Morinth/Nef relationship in ME2. I don't think people should read any homophobic intent from the devs on that one. If a homophobe decides to read into that as per thier own agenda, then well they were homophobic anyway.

Yes. But it doesn't stop there. Morinth/Nef's sinister relationship was not "incidental." Their prominent negative S/S depiction was established as being one of only few to be seen amongst all of the many, many npcs who were in the cast. We know the other few examples were reduced to break-ups through tragedy or villainy. End result = established S/S couples can't win in BioWare, and BioWare refuses to "force" established S/S people onto homophobic players.

(Herren & Wade are good beginnings toward the contrary, as I found out in the DA forum. Good as they are, their example could still benefit from being expanded upon.)

The situation as I see it is that according to some, homosexual/bi characters should be seen as lighter than light, saintly, perfect and free from any negative stain you could choose to mention. To do otherwise is apparently inciting hatred towards the gay community. Well newsflash everybody sins, and to imply that some section of the population doesn't is just patently absurd.

Not according to me. My issue has been that BioWare feels content to limit S/S npcs into fringe-roles either as being criminals of some sort, and/or shown to be ultimately irrelevant to the bigger picture of the story. Limited to such portraits. Those existing characters need to be accompanied by examples who are NOT fashioned solely to appease homophobic visions of queer people.

"Well newsflash everybody sins, and to imply that some section of the population doesn't is just patently absurd."

Don't equate imperfections in everyone to the same level as Morinth's qualities.

What I will be willing to consider is that if someone can show that it is because Morinth engages in same sex relationships that she is evil and commits murder then I would be inclined to agree there is a negative agenda being pushed. However it is thanks to a rare genetic condition among a race of naturally bi aliens and as such her sexuality has nothing to do with it.

BioWare isn't pushing the homophobic agenda.

BioWare is bowing to the homophobic agenda.

All while BioWare pretends to be inclusive to queer people. That they are certainly not.

They treat Morinth's sexuality towards women analogously to lowest twisted ideas of human lesbians' sexuality towards other women. Morinth is female, regardless of BioWare's P.R. and B.S.

Asari sexuality as a whole is purposefully exploited for the segment of straight males who give all other straight males a bad name. (Morinth's case is no exception.) I won't pretend that there aren't straight males who play ME games and have romantic feelings for say, Liara, but I don't think we should pretend that BioWare gave (romantic, so to speak)straight males consideration to the immense degree that they did for the types of straight males who are both misogynistic and homophobic. BioWare crafted asari as a type of "Katy Perry lesbians," first and foremost.

If we are at a stage where we cannot include all religions, sexualities, races, creeds etc in stories as potentially being heir to the same evils and weaknesses that plague all of human kind, if there is one group that has the right to be so incensed at the inclusion of a member of their group in the ranks of villans and evil doers then I am afraid you are making a compelling argument for just removing all reference of same sex situations from media entirely for fear of offense.

All what? Where are the BioWare queer-relationships that don't make us all look terrible or pitiful?

You're half-right in that I do agree with the suggestion that if they can't do it right they shouldn't do it at all. Playing with our images immediately renders BioWare susceptible to a much higher standard.

And to reiterate again for the hard of reading, Showing a character is evil BECAUSE they are gay or bi is obviously wrong and to be condemned. Showing a character is evil as well as being gay or bi is not. It is the causative element that is key.

I do understand the distinction you're making. I wish it could stop there, were it not for the fact that the effects of these showings treats queer people as only evil or helpless. BioWare needs to entertain the concept of diversity among queer people, starting with QUEER HUMANS.

You can bang on about what is implied or inferred all you like, but to ask Bioware to write a story that portrays gay and bisexual characters realistically (ie having both good and evil individuals), yet without causing offense, by what could be possibly inferred by said characters actions is like asking someone to make a cambric shirt without no seams nor needlework.

There are no "positive gay characters" in ME.

There haven't even been any "gay characters" in ME.

Unless we're counting Erinya? In which case, there are still zero "positive gay characters" in ME.

The only alternative we are being offered is to show ALL gay/bi characters conducting themselves to the highest possible standard of human behaviour at all times lest we risk the ire of anyone who could ever possibly be offended. But hang on lets make it fair, lets make sure all races and religions aren't offended either, oh and genders, so we can't show men or women in a negative light at all. Oh wait we've suddenly removed all potential conflict from the narrative.... Pity that.

No. There simply needs to be a much broader array of queer characters. The trouble with that is if people are allowed to pick up on this concept and apply it to these games there would follow very "bothersome" questions about employing this view to LIs for queer players using as much care as is given for straight players. To not treat queer representation as secondary, in the way we've seen being done with all existing and preexisting bisexual LIs. To give a damn from the start, treating queer gamers the same as straight gamers.

Modifié par Eromenos, 08 janvier 2011 - 11:24 .

[Eromenos]

jakeforti wrote...

oh wow, you are reading waaay too much into this, seriously.  the game has more positive gay-related themes than any game I've EVER played.  In fact, I'd say you're the one who's biased and unintentionally settings gays apart by not treating gays as equal to straights.  I hate to reference South Park (just because of its nature), but this reminded me of one episode where Chef (a black man) saw a picture of a black stick figure being hung and a bunch of white stick figures cheering.  While the intent behind it had been obvious in the show, the children didn't understand why he was so upset because all they saw was a picture of some stick figure being hung.  Bioware obviously did not even intend to go there even a little bit.  You're being archaic and ridiculous.

I haven't seen the South Park episode you're referring to. Who are those children? What ethnicities did they represent? What was the point of that episode or clip?

I think a lot of non-white Americans would bristle if they're presented with that clip. A lot of white Americans would too. It doesn't need to be any outward display on their part either. Know that suppressed minorities may not feel it is fruitful to express indignation. The same goes for sympathetic people in the majority who, like everyone else, probably have other plans for the day. Plus, that thing was a clip. BioWare's pattern of marginalization throughout their line of games is a whole different level.

Consider the bigots who can support content that degrades minorities. Apply their perspective to both the South Park clip and BioWare examples.

Always consider who the range of intended audiences are, and how they are ranked by producers of content.

What do queer people mean to BioWare? What do homophobic people mean to BioWare?

Modifié par Eromenos, 08 janvier 2011 - 11:49 .

[Eromenos]

Princess_Ozma wrote...

Not so much... the fact is that this trope while mostly discredited is still alive... the gay killer is still out there in cinema, waiting to strike.

These two videos deal with the trope, the first is mostly about Capirca but is very well done and well thought out:

http://www.youtube.c.../10/ZBlzjGnCMQk

I think the commentator jumped the gun regarding Sam Adama. That first clip of him is in an episode where he mentors his (presumably "default")straight nephew on how to overcome the discrimination their people face, being immigrants and off-worlders. By doing what? By teaching William how to use the local cops' own procedures against them.

There's irony in how gay Uncle Sam could be initially seen as "leading the good boy astray" but for anyone who actually spent time watching CAPRICA, Sam is discovered to be actually connected to people around him. He is fringe, but is he isolated and pitiful? No, Sam is proud to be husband to Larry, brother to Joseph, uncle to William and Tamara, along with being an offworld-immigrant and a hitman too. Many things, not just one. A member of his community. Power and involvement for Sam in the bigger picture are addressed too.

The episode immediately following that one showed both of William's gay uncles babysitting him. Everybody knows they're married. It bothers nobody that they're both men.

Sam and Larry are the ones who try to take care of William during their extended-family's period of grief over Tamara's death. In that time Joseph neglects his still-living son to pursue his daughter's ghost. Was CAPRICA suggesting gay caretakers are better than straight ones? No, because that story didn't end there. But it addressed and refuted the assumption that gay caretakers can only be pretenders or supplements.

http://www.afterelto...a-roiz?page=0,0

CAPRICA's rendering is seamless. A constructed fictional world wherein people don't know of sexual-identity labels, and they do not discriminate against others or themselves for their partners' physical sex.

Is there some level of homophobia in CAPRICA's handling of S/S? Oh, quite. The leading characters are all straight. Most of the minor ones are straight. The trajectory of Clarice Willow's character is meant to be sinister along with being bisexual. She and her spouses commonly relate to each other as fellow terrorists instead of affectionate partners. Though I 'm offended on behalf of queer women, I am also relieved that Clarice and her group-marriage were mostly 3-dimensional and NOT the sole depictions of queer characterization. Clarice, her spouses, her mutual flirtation with Amanda, and Sam's presence in CAPRICA all counted. Straight people were given moral ambiguity, depth and range. Queer people were given moral ambiguity, depth and range.

BioWare does not allow this for its queer characters. We cannot name one queer person established in their line-up who is established as a hero or a fixer. I mean somebody whom even the game-world looks well on, before we meet he or she. If offscreen events can occur that produce current ugly-gay depictions for us to come across, there should also be better-gay ones too. Restricting us down to the former is catering to homophobia while pretending to be gay-inclusive.

Modifié par Eromenos, 09 janvier 2011 - 12:49 .

[diskoh]

I took a hiatus from this board for half a year because I was burned out on ME2 following my 7th playthrough. Thrilled to see this topic is still active after all this time. Fight the good fight! Please include some same sex relationships.

[DrBobcat]

Uszi wrote...

Er, I always assumed that proponents of the system were hoping we'd pick up a new LI that was specifically geared for same sex romance.  I'm not sure I support all love interest characters being romanceable by manshep and femshep.  While we can endlessly debate that we should be able to choose our player-character's orientations, I don't think the same argument applies to the NPCs and other set pieces in the narrative.

Indeed, most have argued either for the introduction of new (bisexual) LIs or the "rebisexualization" of characters who were originally intended to be such. Each solution comes with its own set of problems, of course. New LIs (obviously) won't have as rich a backstory and, therefore, might be seen as inferior when compared to those on the current roster. On the other hand, "updates" to a character's sexuality must be well written. Otherwise, such changes won't seem plausible and the player's experience will suffer as a result.

Personally, I still lean towards the latter option. Certain characters, like Tali, Thane, Kaiden, and Jack could "open up" in ME3 and I'd find it easy to believe. Others, however, are a completely different story (no pun intended). The writers would have to jump through a lot of hoops to make it all come together... This is actually a topic I've been wanting people to discuss more. I think it would make for a good change of pace.

So, how about it, people? Who do you think could be realistically "updated" in ME3? Do you agree with my choices or do you have your own nominees? I'm not looking for a full-blown piece of fanfiction here, just a candidate and perhaps a brief synopsis on how it'd work.

Modifié par DrBobcat, 09 janvier 2011 - 12:59 .

[Eromenos]

ElitePinecone wrote...

The fact that Samara's daughters didn't choose to be A-Y, and that (Morinth aside) they definitely don't enjoy being so, is 'tragic' enough (in the literary sense of the word); the dossiers on Samara in Lair of the Shadow Broker are some of the best writing I've seen in a Bioware game, ever.  

I agree...to me, Samara's characterization has always been one of the stronger things about ME2. In general, most of the dossiers were amazing.

 It's far more interesting, in my view and from a dramatic viewpoint, to focus on the tragedy of Samara's other twro daughters (and her personal loss) than the 'evil lesbian demon' trope that Morinth has been suggested to represent. 

I have always seen this while I also continue to see the harm of casting Morinth as the most prominent established S/S person in ME2. She does partake in M/F, but given how we locate her it easily encourages people to use the "evi lesbian" label. Morinth is not offset by anyone who doesn't behave like a monster.

I can and I do look at her and Samara the way that you do. It's just not my sole view of her...I also see the homophobia at work and Morinth's effect in that regard is unmitigated by anything that allows queer people dignity in ME2. She's exploitation, just like any asari. I like Samara, but I never forget the fact that she and her entire race were fashioned first and foremost for the shooter-crowd.

Modifié par Eromenos, 09 janvier 2011 - 01:06 .

[Eromenos]

DrBobcat wrote...


RE: The Ardat-Yakshi, Nef/Morinth, and Depictions of S/S Relationships in ME

The debate rages on, it seems. Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I do not believe that Bioware deliberately tried to cast S/S relationships in a negative light with their inclusion of Nef and Morinth. Morinth is a sexual predator, plain and simple, and preys on vulnerable individuals regardless of their species or sex (this is made clear on numerous occassions, especially when Shepard visits her apartment). Nef was young, shy, and naive. She lived in a rundown apartment that's within walking distance to a large variety of seedy establishments (merc hideouts, blackmarket weapon dealers, and nightclubs). I'm surprised something didn't happen to her sooner, to be honest. She was the perfect target for someone as experienced as Morinth. Man or woman, it's unlikely the outcome would've been any different.

However, seeing as this is one of the very few S/S relationships depicted in Mass Effect, I am still left with an unpleasant taste in my mouth. There really isn't any good to balance out the bad. Yet, maybe it's just as David Gaider alluded to in the DA2 forum: Bioware writers have an addiction to tragedy. Virtually every relationship in their games ends on a sour note, regardless of its format. However, because S/S relationships are so uncommon in ME (when compared to their other games), any catastrophes that do befall them are much more apparent. Not to mention, such occurrences are probably going to be noticed by those who are actively looking for them. This means that GLBTs and homophobes alike are more likely to take note of these experiences and to reflect on them. Obviously, this isn't good. GLBTs will feel out-of-place and even victimized at times, while homophobes are able to scrounge up more "evidence" for their beliefs.

This is precisely what I've been getting at too.

Except where I chase it further and point the finger.

I want to be perfectly clear, however. I am not accusing Bioware of being homophobic. That would be a ridiculous claim to make given the company's history. Even so, I do believe the matter has been handled recklessly and I am disappointed with the excuses given thus far. I'm hoping that they have taken note of how important this is to us. Maybe they're too busy doing some work behind-the-scenes and want to keep it secret? Heh. Probably just wishful thinking. 

We do diverge on this one.

So, how about it, people? Who do you
think could be realistically "updated" in ME3? Do you agree with my
choices or do you have your own nominees? I'm not looking for a
full-blown piece of fanfiction here, just a candidate and perhaps a
brief synopsis on how it'd work.

Kaidan.

Nothing more complicated than talking with him and flirting with Kaidan to give him an opening to reveal the deep feelings he has for Shepard. For those of us who want to be with Kaidan, he could respond favorably or unfavorably depending on the type of man we're playing as. Same with Ashley for women.

If we're not Shepard, if we're the new guy(or girl with Ashley) then Kaidan should be as wide-open as any other new LI. And by this I mean they should all become approachable regardless of sex.