9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Uszi]

DrBobcat wrote...

Personally, I still lean towards the latter option. Certain characters, like Tali, Thane, Kaiden, and Jack could "open up" in ME3 and I'd find it easy to believe. Others, however, are a completely different story (no pun intended). The writers would have to jump through a lot of hoops to make it all come together... This is actually a topic I've been wanting people to discuss more. I think it would make for a good change of pace.

So, how about it, people? Who do you think could be realistically "updated" in ME3? Do you agree with my choices or do you have your own nominees? I'm not looking for a full-blown piece of fanfiction here, just a candidate and perhaps a brief synopsis on how it'd work.

Meh... See, once we start rewriting characters, that's when we'll start stepping on toes.  I understand that a number of femsheps love Tali, and a number of mansheps love Thane... But changing them for the sake of the few now risks alienating the many, so I doubt you would see something along those lines.

Or maybe it wouldn't alienate as many people as I think.  Maybe I'm pessimistic.

I'm not sure how much of an effect changing the establish character's sexual orientations would have on me.  I would think it'd be kid of weird for if all of the people shephard happens to recruit just happen to be bisexual.  If the case becomes rewriting old characters as possible same sex LIs, I feel like it shouldn't be more than 2 or so, personally.  And not because of any discrimination, it'd just be kind of a strange coincidence that all of these people swing both ways. 

So... I think there should be new s/s specific romances in ME3, personally.  That's the safest way for Bioware to do it, and I imagine if s/s does happen, that'll be how.

Modifié par Uszi, 09 janvier 2011 - 01:36 .

[MisterDyslexo]

If we start re-writing characters, we need to be able to start a new romance with them. Personally, while I'm not against s/s romances, I wouldn't want some characters that were previously romanceable in ME1 or 2 romanceable in ME3, unless of course there's a good reason behind it. To me, it seems reasonable to start a Ash/Kaidan in ME3 (or ME2 DLC :innocent:). Plenty of reasoning as to why they didn't previously engage in a romantic entanglement (hetero or homosexual) so I would be up for that. I don't really see how this could work with the others, with that window of opportunity there (role-playing perspective, not actually available for s/s) having been previously available. The writers are pretty good and I'm sure if they wanted to create more opportunities, they could do it well, but I don't see that happening for anybody except for VS.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 09 janvier 2011 - 01:50 .

[Eromenos]

Open question-

Does Samara ever speak about her wife? We infer that her bondmate was another asari because of how their children turned out, but since I never flirt with Samara I don't know if there are any details about the bondmate besides reading in Samara's DLC dossier about the property she and her mate owned when....

From my view so far, it's as if the dissolution of possessions was Samara's unilateral choice. Where did her wife feature in any of that, assuming she was alive or present? No involvement in the call with the "good daughters" too.

Feels like Samara's wife was conveniently inconsequential, other than being the means to produce potentially dangerous bisexual predators.

Modifié par Eromenos, 09 janvier 2011 - 02:21 .

[Pacifien]

According to the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, Samara possessed a Memorial sphere for her bondmate as well as many other items in relation to her bondmate. Draw your own conclusion.

(My conclusion is I can't believe that BioWare is incapable of a squadmate having a wife or husband that is alive, and they obviously wish to portray the idea that monogamous relationships only lead to disaster.)

(That's not actually my conclusion at all.)

Modifié par Pacifien, 09 janvier 2011 - 02:41 .

[Eromenos]

Pacifien wrote...

According to the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, Samara possessed a Memorial sphere for her bondmate as well as many other items in relation to her bondmate. Draw your own conclusion.

(My conclusion is I can't believe that BioWare is incapable of a squadmate having a wife or husband that is alive, and they obviously wish to portray the idea that monogamous relationships only lead to disaster.)

(That's not actually my conclusion at all.)

I'm looking at queer npcs across the board in BioWare games.

Herren & Wade are the only marks of beginning progress in this aspect.

http://masseffect.wi...Justicar_Samara

Yep. Did they allow Samara to talk about her? Any explanation as to how or why she died?

I take it as-

-It's ok for a dignified mother to speak of and to her daughters.

-It's not ok for a dignified woman to talk about the wife she loved. Even if the outcome of their relationship satisfied the criteria that S/S npcs aren't allowed to be happy.

Modifié par Eromenos, 09 janvier 2011 - 03:06 .

[Pacifien]

Eromenos wrote...
BioWare isn't pushing the homophobic agenda.

BioWare is bowing to the homophobic agenda.

Discussion of homosexual relationships in context of the games is welcome on these forums, but critique of BioWare's political motivations in regards to homosexual depictions in their games should be directed to their corporate contact page. Real world sociopolitical discussions are off-topic to these forums, as mentioned in the Site Rules.

[MisterDyslexo]

I think one think Bioware is trying to lead us into thinking with Samara's bondmate is that Morinth might be somehow responsible for her death. Now I doubt Morinth had sex with her  but given the fact that Samara's mate could've have been the one to give birth to her, I imagine that learning the child you brought into the world is a murderer might  make you a little on edge and do something irrational *cough cough* HINT suicide *cough* I don't know, but thats just my take. And given Bioware's history of having (to my knowledge) have every single relationship not having a happy ending (except maybe with DA:O have to see DA:2 first) I'm not seeing any secret homophobic agenda or catering. Plus Samara seems to be "the guy in the relationship" so-to-speak, as in she definitely seems to have the more masculine role than most asari (like I don't know being a pirate or crusading the galaxy self-righteously killing bad guys, it just rubs me that way)

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 09 janvier 2011 - 07:12 .

[Jademoon121]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

I think one think Bioware is trying to lead us into thinking with Samara's bondmate is that Morinth might be somehow responsible for her death. Now I doubt Morinth had sex with her  but given the fact that Samara's mate could've have been the one to give birth to her, I imagine that learning the child you brought into the world is a murderer might  make you a little on edge and do something irrational *cough cough* HINT suicide *cough* I don't know, but thats just my take. And given Bioware's history of having (to my knowledge) have every single relationship not having a happy ending (except maybe with DA:O have to see DA:2 first) I'm not seeing any secret homophobic agenda or catering. Plus Samara seems to be "the guy in the relationship" so-to-speak, as in she definitely seems to have the more masculine role than most asari (like I don't know being a pirate or crusading the galaxy self-righteously killing bad guys, it just rubs me that way)

I'm not 100% sure, but I remember when talking to Samara that the Ardat-Yakshi is always born from two Asari parents, they're purebloods. Being a pureblood in Asari society is bad enough as it is, but giving birth to someone who can't breed but kill until they reach incomprehensible power is just abhorrent. I'm guessing Samara is too ashamed to see her bondmate again, if she still lives of course 

[MisterDyslexo]

Jademoon121 wrote...
I'm guessing Samara is too ashamed to see her bondmate again, if she still lives of course 

This makes some sense if Samara was the birther, but as far as I know, there's nothing that really points you in one way or another. One might be how Samara says in Morinth's apartment if you hold off returning to the Normandy that she'll recollect the day of her birth, as sometimes women can't recollect the birthing (naturally preventive of trauma, same happens with the baby). That points to me as being the "father" so-to-speak, but others could perceive that the other way.

[ElitePinecone]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

If we start re-writing characters, we need to be able to start a new romance with them. Personally, while I'm not against s/s romances, I wouldn't want some characters that were previously romanceable in ME1 or 2 romanceable in ME3, unless of course there's a good reason behind it. To me, it seems reasonable to start a Ash/Kaidan in ME3 (or ME2 DLC :innocent:). Plenty of reasoning as to why they didn't previously engage in a romantic entanglement (hetero or homosexual) so I would be up for that. I don't really see how this could work with the others, with that window of opportunity there (role-playing perspective, not actually available for s/s) having been previously available. The writers are pretty good and I'm sure if they wanted to create more opportunities, they could do it well, but I don't see that happening for anybody except for VS.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Ashley and Kaidan would be easier characters to inregrate into an ME3 squadmember role, given that any of the potential ME2 squadmates could be dead (or not activated or picked up, etc) by the time of the third game. One of the two Virmire Survivors is guaranteed to be alive into ME3 (pending any DLC, obviously); the same can't be said for any ME2 squadmates (although I know many players would have tried to save their entire team). I honestly can't see Bioware 'bringing back' (so to speak) any ME2 characters in major squadmate roles, simply because there's no guarantee that they'd even be alive in the third game. This has implications for romances. 

Regarding ME2 DLC, we don't know what the large pack planned for later this year is, but let's throw caution to the winds and assume that it's related to the surviving Virmire squadmate. The chances of 're-opening' a relationship with either one is (to my mind) unfortunately pretty slim. It wasn't an option for Liara in LotSB, and I can't see any compelling reason why this would change for Ashley/Kaidan. A newly romancable squadmate would be awesome, and I think many fans would love it, but I'm not confident of it happening. 

[Eromenos]

Pacifien wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
BioWare isn't pushing the homophobic agenda.

BioWare is bowing to the homophobic agenda.

Discussion of homosexual relationships in context of the games is welcome on these forums, but critique of BioWare's political motivations in regards to homosexual depictions in their games should be directed to their corporate contact page. Real world sociopolitical discussions are off-topic to these forums, as mentioned in the Site Rules.

I don't mince words. I talk about BioWare in conjunction with homophobia because that has everything to do with their handling of queer characters. Sure would be convenient though, if fruitbasket-twirling praises over crumbs were the only "acceptable" assessments going around.

The ME crew has shown a craven attitude against speaking with the demographic of gamers whose images they repeatedly abuse. No one here believes their B.S. about asari not being women, so the continual disregard says more than any further excuses they may cook up.

In fact, BioWare's responses anywhere on this issue have never allowed credit for the reality that their proprietary mystique will not extend indefinitely.

Where is it, where is it...ah. From the stillborn DA2 version of this thread- http://social.biowar...ndex/4613564/75

"But this is still the same "since you're not doing everything equally, you're obviously hating on me or my preferences" argument that we've been trying to avoid, isn't it? And what people do with our content is their own business, isn't it, just like how other people play our games shouldn't have an effect on you. Will some small section of our audience "fetishize lesbians" because we have lesbian romance in our game? Sure they will!"

I envision a huckster flashing a grin and wink, punctuating his last remark with a thumbs-up in one hand while using his other hand to pat the head of the bisexual female he was addressing.

The way other people play their games does affect us all, and in every direction. "Shouldn't" is his careful selection intended to divert people from feeling and knowing that "it still does." He also completely skips over the fact that who BioWare intentionally caters to primarily for this issue negatively affect minorities whose images are constantly abused, in ways much more than our exclusively marginalized/victimized/villified images can affect the dignity of those who fall into comfortable majority demographics. An "evil-lesbian" exploitation being the most significant representation of canon S/S in ME2 therefore becomes easy for them to get away with. Telling people it's not harmful, that it's ridiculous to challenge this fact, is homophobic because both the intent and effect behind that content and its apologists are to serve the ones who enjoy exclusively negative depictions of queer people while simultaneously forestalling any and all images that might allow for queer characters to be capable and fortunate the way straight people can be.

But it's good that you brought up the fact that I'm here to criticize. That, I do. I don't excuse intentional-mistakes. These ones deserve to be given extended-dialogue and criticism. Their should not be room to continually repeat the kinds of intentional-mistakes that treat us as tokens.

Modifié par Eromenos, 09 janvier 2011 - 04:15 .

[Eromenos]

Edit: Post removed. You have been warned to avoid this discussion.

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:20 .

[Theodoro]

I don't get why you accuse BioWare of being homophobic. The people have done everything to please all kinds of fans. Hell, they created a whole race of bisexual women. We've already got Liara anyway. Is that not enough for you? No need to pervert and distort the game further.

[Eromenos]

Edit: Post removed.

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:20 .

[Theodoro]

Edit: Post removed.

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:21 .

[Pwner1323]

Ben seems like a straight shot for the role of gay romance. God knows Femshep doesn't need anymore sausage.....

[Eromenos]

Edit: Post removed.

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:22 .

[DrBobcat]

Uszi wrote...

Meh... See, once we start rewriting characters, that's when we'll start stepping on toes.  I understand that a number of femsheps love Tali, and a number of mansheps love Thane... But changing them for the sake of the few now risks alienating the many, so I doubt you would see something along those lines.

Or maybe it wouldn't alienate as many people as I think.  Maybe I'm pessimistic.

I'm not sure how much of an effect changing the establish character's sexual orientations would have on me.  I would think it'd be kid of weird for if all of the people shephard happens to recruit just happen to be bisexual.  If the case becomes rewriting old characters as possible same sex LIs, I feel like it shouldn't be more than 2 or so, personally.  And not because of any discrimination, it'd just be kind of a strange coincidence that all of these people swing both ways. 

So... I think there should be new s/s specific romances in ME3, personally.  That's the safest way for Bioware to do it, and I imagine if s/s does happen, that'll be how.

MisterDyslexo wrote...

If we start re-writing characters, we need to be able to start a new romance with them. Personally, while I'm not against s/s romances, I wouldn't want some characters that were previously romanceable in ME1 or 2 romanceable in ME3, unless of course there's a good reason behind it. To me, it seems reasonable to start a Ash/Kaidan in ME3 (or ME2 DLC ../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png). Plenty of reasoning as to why they didn't previously engage in a
romantic entanglement (hetero or homosexual) so I would be up for that. I don't really see how this could work with the others, with that window of opportunity there (role-playing perspective, not actually available for s/s) having been previously available. The writers are pretty good and I'm sure if they wanted to create more opportunities, they could do it well, but I don't see that happening for anybody except for VS.

Glad to see so much feedback! I've got a lot of work ahead of me...

1) Character Rewriting

I think it's just a matter of perspective. Remember, Garrus and Tali could not be pursued as LIs until ME2. From the player's point-of-view (the meta level), this could be seen as an exercise in literary revisionism. Yet, if we put ourselves in Shepard's shoes, this change in behavior seems quite believable. Both Garrus and Tali have a difficult time trusting others, but Shepard has stood by them for many years and has proven him/herself to be reliable. Given all the experiences these individuals have had with Shepard, I think it makes sense that they eventually opened up to him.

Now, let's apply this same line of reasoning to another character with the added factor of sexuality (note that we're going to operate under the assumption that every [living] squadmate in ME2 will be in ME3. This is a tall order, I know, but a necessary one for me to make my case). Let's assume that Thane has always been bisexual (or, at the very least, has a latent sexual interest in males). Seeing as he married a female and fathered a child, let us also assume that he prefers female partners. However, his interest in males has never completely dissipated and he still contemplates the notion every now and then. He has yet to act on these thoughts because it's unfamiliar and he is unsure how others will react (I know there's a lot of anthropomorphism going on here and I apologize. I'm just trying to make the concept easier to understand and relate to). Yet, as his relationship with Shepard grows (throughout ME2 and on to ME3), he begins to feel more comfortable revisiting these ideas. As the ultimate showdown with the Reapers draws nearer, he finally musters up the courage to approach Shepard and confess his feelings...

The above is merely an idea, and one among many. Think of it as a proof-of-concept and nothing more. I'm certain the writers at Bioware could concoct something far more profound and original. Nevertheless, this approach could (theoretically) work just as well for any other character in the game. It also avoids a critical pitfall other solutions do not. Because we retain the character's backstory and stage presence, we also retain a sense of connection and familiarity with him/her. This is vital when trying to construct an immersive narrative.

2) Making Everyone Bisexual

I agree that this is a terrible idea. It would be extremely expensive to implement. Sure, the writers could cut down on costs by using gender-neutral pronouns in their dialogue, and animators could construct scenes that cater to both sexes, but this would undoubtedly compromise the believability of it all. Maybe it's just me, but I'd like for each character to recognize the fact that (my) Shepard is male and to keep that in mind when they speak to him. Gender-specific dialogue makes the game more immersive, in my opinion, and thus more enjoyable. The same holds true for romantic scenes. I think everyone in this thread would agree that actions taken in moments of intimacy are not consistent in every type of relationship (read: different slots and different tabs at different times in different places ). Personally, I could do without all the romance scenes being reduced to the level of a "Garrus Head-bump."

Therefore, I find the best solution to be the introduction of two bisexual characters (one male and one female). Not only is it more cost-effective, but it allows Bioware to write two, high-quality plots rather than 6+ subpar ones. In a perfect world, I'd want many more choices to be available to us. Unfortunately, we don't live in such a place. Constrained by factors such as time and money, we must learn to compromise at some point. I think, and hope, most of you agree.

Modifié par DrBobcat, 09 janvier 2011 - 08:03 .

[Theodoro]

Whether it turns Kaidan 'gay' or 'bisexual' is irrelevant, is still makes him not heterosexual, which he clearly is. The content of him being bisexual is not in the final game itself, henceforth it's not true.



I don't get why you even try to defend this so much. Even if it happened, do you really think that romance with bisexual squadmates is going to be any different for Female Shepard and Male Shepard? It'd be all the same dialogue (like Liara), making both romances just a copy of one another, except that Shepard's lines are spoken by either Mark Meer or Jennifer Hale. Great! You got what you asked for! I highly doubt that BioWare will make any diversity at all. Only if I was sure that it would, however, I would have been a little more tolerant. I'd rather have a unique romance for each character.

[Eromenos]

Edit: Post removed.

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:22 .

[Uszi]

Edit: Post removed.

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:22 .

[Eromenos]

Edit: Post removed

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:23 .

[ElitePinecone]

Moving right along:

Theodoro wrote...

Whether it turns Kaidan 'gay' or 'bisexual' is irrelevant, is still makes him not heterosexual, which he clearly is. The content of him being bisexual is not in the final game itself, henceforth it's not true.

On the contrary, not acknowledging a previous romance doesn't rule out someone being bisexual. I'm splitting hairs here, but just because Kaidan mentions his association with Rana (and can pursue a relationship with femShep) doesn't rule out his being bisexual. In the male Shepard/Kaidan romance playthrough (lines for which were recorded, and can be found here) he doesn't even mention Rana by name, or any past relationships. Granted, this is cut content, but we can see the direction Bioware had intended to take the character. 

Tali and Garrus were not attracted to humans in the first game. Magically, they fell over swooning for Shepard in Mass Effect 2. People change, and not mentioning an attraction initially does not rule it out in the future. I repeat: Kaidan mentioned only a female attraction in Mass Effect. This makes him hetero- or bisexual. Up to the point where he says "eww,  I don't like men", he can be bisexual without imploding the canon of the universe. 

That being said, and as much as I think Kaidan is a great character, I agree that a new ME3 squadmember is probably more likely (if anything can be considered 'likely'). 

[Pacifien]

I don't know, after what Kaidan says on Horizon for those who don't romance him, I wouldn't put it past him to have an unspoken love for the character. If Tali can harbor feelings for Shepard all throughout ME1 but leave them unvoiced for fear of rejection, I can see that being just as possible with Kaidan. He is a cautious fellow, afterall.

[Chris Priestly]

If this thread goes off topic, it will be closed. Last warning.