9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Sahariel]

Uszi, bravo. Undoubtably better and more eloquent than I would have managed, but I see the spirit of your words have perhaps not had the desired effect. To that end for what it's worth to Eromenos I see you are really really angry and personally offended here, and if I've had any part in causing that I apologize.

I still don't agree with you on a lot of points, but I'm a straight guy, who perhaps doesn't spend enough a time thinking about issues that face the lgbt community. I don't make explicit apologies for individual statements, as I'm not entirely sure where the issues lie, and until I'm cognizant of those it is hard to correct the mistake.

To that end would it be permissable to take our personal discussions off the thread and on a one and one message or IM situation? I believe this thread serves an important purpose, and it IS likely to get locked at some stage if we don't dial it down a couple of notches. I know you take quite a militant view against moderating your opinion on what is true for you, and any beneficial comments towards Bioware you see as undeserved, but like I say speaking as a straight guy who in my real life I only have 2 bisexual friends & 1 male gay friend this thread serves as a nice place to be exposed to different modes of thinking and lifestyles.

My only real agenda is that I like people no matter their creed, colour or sexual orientation. and there are few enough places in mainstream media where there is a cultural crossover between the straight and lgbt communities. Wether intentionally or not the fact is the games Bioware creates are one of  those places, and it would seem to serve the agendas of the homophobic anti-lgbt to remove such a point of contact.

Peace.

[BiancoAngelo7]

So much anger and frustration towards the devs for not including or how they "handle" the homosexuality issue geez. Don't you guys think that there are much much worse instances where homosexuals are mistreated in real life?



It's normal to feel left out if something you would like isn't in a game, but is it really necessary to demonize the game developer for it?

[Sahariel]

Back to the discussion on reinterpreting ME1 & ME2 characters in ME3 as having been potentially bi all along. I guess I still feel it would be hard to justify in the narrative, and would feel disjointed, but I guess it would probably mean more to those who would want it implemented than it would actually matter to those who think like me so perhaps it would be a worthwhile endeavor.

[MisterDyslexo]

Can we officially put the inconsistency argument to rest? Maybe put something in the original post if it isn't already there?
The inconsistency argument
-Prevents dynamic character development (in NPCs)
-Goes against the very nature of Role-playing (as in RP of RPG) by forcing the canon-zation of the PC

That just as a generality. Sexual orientation is just a specific aspect of a character. Sometimes it requires catalyst (for example Garrus' experience on Omega), but the "inconsistent" argument doesn't have the slightest whim to stand on.


Regarding Kaidan specifically, the Rana thing does come up, but since the dialogue is different regarding her, you can dismiss that as acting differently, and actually maybe bring his bexuality in question within the game itself (rather than some forum about it) and could provide some very interesting character development.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:39 .

[Erode_The_Soul]

I know there have been arguments as to how any (or at least most) of the current characters could be bisexual and, while I don't disagree in theory, there were only two characters I was really, genuinely surprised I could not bisexually romance. Those characters were Tali and Kaiden. In fact, I was so certain that Tali was an option, I replayed the game a few times thinking I was just doing something wrong and couldn't trigger it.

[Layzr]

i couldnt care less about this, but i dont want a companion saying "btw, sheperd, im gay" in the middle of recruiting them, it should be something you can persue if you want to, it shouldnt be in your face and give that character that certain characteristic.

[Erode_The_Soul]

Layzr wrote...

i couldnt care less about this, but i dont want a companion saying "btw, sheperd, im gay" in the middle of recruiting them, it should be something you can persue if you want to, it shouldnt be in your face and give that character that certain characteristic.

I doubt they would, to be honest. I mean, characters don't say to Shepard "btw, I'm straight, wanna bang?" when recruiting them so I doubt they'd change that up.

Granted, they pretty much say that two conversations later, but I'm sure that would be the case with all romances, not just the same gendered ones.

[DrBobcat]

Layzr wrote...

i couldnt care less about this, but i dont want a companion saying "btw, sheperd, im gay" in the middle of recruiting them, it should be something you can persue if you want to, it shouldnt be in your face and give that character that certain characteristic.

I imagine we all agree with you on this point!  If they were to approach it that carelessly, they'd be doing more harm than good and, in my opinion, it should either be done right or not at all.

Erode_the_Soul wrote...

I doubt they would, to be honest. I mean, characters don't say to Shepard "btw, I'm straight, wanna bang?" when recruiting them so I doubt they'd change that up.

Granted, they pretty much say that two conversations later, but I'm sure that would be the case with all romances, not just the same gendered ones. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png

Too true! If only my RL pursuits went that smoothly...

Modifié par DrBobcat, 10 janvier 2011 - 01:48 .

[diskoh]

What bothered me the most in ME2 is the absolute awkwardness in how s/s relationships reached the cut-off point and just went to "ok, no more talking" mode.

I was speaking to Miranda, things got emotional and I believe she touched my FemArm, then suddenly it's "there's a lot to do Shepard" for the last 15 hours of gameplay, meanwhile the male Shepard continues to have conversations.

Even if you don't want to include a s/s romance option, it actually was quite offputing how that was handled. They should still be able to speak some more beyond that point, develop a closeness and a friendship... maybe instead of the romance cutscene, they'll have a drink and make it clear and rewarding that you as the player have successfully guided Shepard into a special friendship with this person.

Modifié par diskoh, 10 janvier 2011 - 04:38 .

[HolyMoogle]

In regards to representation of non-heterosexual people in the ME universe (I'm going to ignore whatever Muzyka has said on this - that man makes absolutely no sense to me), I just think its important to remember that depicting a GLBT person in a video game is still a very raw process. There is little to no precedent, and if nothing else developers (ALL of them) would do well to remember that for the longest time GLBT people were depicted by Hollywood as underhanded, backstabbing cowards with disturbing sexual predilections. Not too far from how Jews were often depicted in certain war propaganda.



Over on the Dragon Age forums, from what I've read David Gaider is very much attuned to the notion of privilege (whether that be racial, sexual, whatever), and I'd be curious to know whether the writers on Mass Effect share his cultural knowledge. I'm likely never going to find out, but I am so VERY curious to see how Mass Effect 3 turns out - because at the end of the day, the whole same-sex romance/Morinth/etc thing left me cold on Mass Effect 2.



That's where - once again - I find common ground with Eromenos. Mass Effect 2 is a superb game, but I feel like my experience with it was painted by its regression from Bioware's previous efforts in these regards. I'm not saying anything as to the motivation of the writers here - it's just how it came off to me. And I wish it wasn't the case (I want to love ME2!), but since Bioware games are some of the only ones where any inkling of same-sex attraction is addressed whatsoever, it can cause heightened emotions when things don't all go right. As we've seen here.



Still, the next game is the next game. Most games never have anything written about them in regards to social issues, so it's nice to know that the discussion exists.

[Uszi]

Sahariel wrote...
Uszi, bravo.

I got owned by Chris! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]
Actually I am happy that we had some moderator action in the thread, so we can get on topic.

Can I remake one of my better points:

That I think that the strength of this game is that you can have all of these different interpretations, like a piece of literature or a movie.  One can have a feminist interpretation of the events of the game, or as we have seen on the forum, that one can have a LGBTQ interpretation.  And all of these interpretations are good and allow us to experience the game on different levels.  And all are more or less critical of the game.

I just find that really cool.

As to rewriting all LIs as bisexual:
It still doesn't make sense to me.  What are the odds that that many of your recruits are LGBTQ?  What are the odds that all potential interests are Bi?

It can be done.  Easily.  If it does, it's essentially catering to metagamers.
In my opinion it should not be done for RP reasons. 
/2 cents

Modifié par Uszi, 10 janvier 2011 - 08:00 .

[diskoh]

I personally wouldn't want every squadmate to be bisexual. Not by any stretch of the imagination. That's cheap and it doesn't make sense.

Jack basically came out as bi in the game, so she makes sense. And with Tali... if you're gonna hump an alien, does it really matter what gender they are?

Male Shepard and Grunt make no sense in a relationship because they don't have that type of interaction, much like FemShep and Kasumi don't. There's no need to force every character into a love interest option. But it would be nice to have at least 1 option for both genders in each game.

Modifié par diskoh, 10 janvier 2011 - 08:16 .

[Sahariel]

Uszi wrote...

As to rewriting all LIs as bisexual:
It still doesn't make sense to me.  What are the odds that that many of your recruits are LGBTQ?  What are the odds that all potential interests are Bi?

It can be done.  Easily.  If it does, it's essentially catering to metagamers.
In my opinion it should not be done for RP reasons. 
/2 cents

I'm inclined to agree, but  as I stated I think it would mean a lot to some gamers. What I'd really like to see is a roleplaying game that makes romance an integral part of the narrative. Credit for Bioware for making narrative driven games in the first place, but I'd like to see romance central to the story and not just an optional sidequest.

I had high hopes for Mass Effect in that after romancing Ashley, I had expected to see her return and have that plotline advance to something a bit more meaningful, and whilst I hope it will get resolved in ME3 it doesn't quite give the focus I was hoping for romance to have in the story.

Throwing this up for discussion if they made a new Mass Effect after the conclusion of the Shephard Trilogy, I'd like to see you playing a Captain of an independant ship in the mold of Han Solo or Malcom Reynolds of Firefly, and you could get to see the Mass Effect universe from a less epic galaxy changing perspective, and more of a personal and character driven angle.

In such a story you could have to form a crew, and much like what they are doing with Dragon Age 2 see the story take place over a decade or so. Have people leave and join your ship see them evolve. In that context you select any type of relationship wether straight, homosexual or bisexual develop over time and with significant narrative focus. Rather than make everyone bi you have several of each sexual orientation available as interesting romance options. Which all would have major storylines devoted to them, instead of having this save the galaxy sort of thing.

Character options would make a significant impact on the relationship, if you are an amoral pirate type, you would run into complications when romancing the more noble and caring crewmates, and by the same token if playing a fundementally good character, you would end up being used and betrayed by the more nefarious npcs, perhaps to the point of them becoming villans to your hero. Yet for an evil pc such and npc you would team up with and embark on a life of crime together.

[Destroy Raiden_]

diskoh wrote...

I personally wouldn't want every squadmate to be bisexual. Not by any stretch of the imagination. That's cheap and it doesn't make sense.

Jack basically came out as bi in the game, so she makes sense. And with Tali... if you're gonna hump an alien, does it really matter what gender they are?

Male Shepard and Grunt make no sense in a relationship because they don't have that type of interaction, much like FemShep and Kasumi don't. There's no need to force every character into a love interest option. But it would be nice to have at least 1 option for both genders in each game.

Pretty much this. Already establish characters aren't Bi. Jack said she tried it so if BW was to make her a Bi and we all know Liara already is then that's established in their characters. Having my fshep tell Jack no was one thing doing this to every girl on my team is completely another. If they want a new ME3 character to be bi so be it I've got no issue with that because they would be new, not established in their preferences, and you'd be getting to know them. Right now in fallout NV as a female character I've gotten at least 15 options for hitting on women and the only man I can hit on shot me it's nearly enough to make me not want to talk to any female I see just like the oddity of how you have to dance with all the people in Albion first regardless of weather they're male or female so if you're a female guess what you have to dance with her! I solve this by not saying a word to fnpcs and it's annoying to say the least I want to speak to them but I can't because I nearly have to woo them first.

[ElitePinecone]

Sahariel wrote...
Throwing this up for discussion if they made a new Mass Effect after the conclusion of the Shephard Trilogy, I'd like to see you playing a Captain of an independant ship in the mold of Han Solo or Malcom Reynolds of Firefly, and you could get to see the Mass Effect universe from a less epic galaxy changing perspective, and more of a personal and character driven angle.

In such a story you could have to form a crew, and much like what they are doing with Dragon Age 2 see the story take place over a decade or so. Have people leave and join your ship see them evolve. In that context you select any type of relationship wether straight, homosexual or bisexual develop over time and with significant narrative focus. Rather than make everyone bi you have several of each sexual orientation available as interesting romance options. Which all would have major storylines devoted to them, instead of having this save the galaxy sort of thing.

Character options would make a significant impact on the relationship, if you are an amoral pirate type, you would run into complications when romancing the more noble and caring crewmates, and by the same token if playing a fundementally good character, you would end up being used and betrayed by the more nefarious npcs, perhaps to the point of them becoming villans to your hero. Yet for an evil pc such and npc you would team up with and embark on a life of crime together.

That is a really, really awesome idea. For all the great character-driven stories in Mass Effect (and Dragon Age, for that matter), the meta-narrative ('saving the galaxy') tends to dominate the resources and content in the games. I loved the character-driven storylines in ME2 somewhat more than the 'main plot', so a game based far more around that sort of narrative would be fantastic. 

I don't think discarding a meta-narrative entirely would be feasible, or desirable, but a much bigger focus on characters with a less 'epic' or extraordinary main character would be great. Bioware's RPGs have always excelled at great characterisation, and having this as the focus (rather than the extra bonus) of  the narrative is an amazing thought. 

[Sahariel]

ElitePinecone wrote...
That is a really, really awesome idea. For all the great character-driven stories in Mass Effect (and Dragon Age, for that matter), the meta-narrative ('saving the galaxy') tends to dominate the resources and content in the games. I loved the character-driven storylines in ME2 somewhat more than the 'main plot', so a game based far more around that sort of narrative would be fantastic. 

I don't think discarding a meta-narrative entirely would be feasible, or desirable, but a much bigger focus on characters with a less 'epic' or extraordinary main character would be great. Bioware's RPGs have always excelled at great characterisation, and having this as the focus (rather than the extra bonus) of  the narrative is an amazing thought. 

Thanks, all you need for a main plot is that the PC took out a loan to purchase said ship, and the loan has defaulted to some pretty shady characters who will want the PC to smuggle, pirate and plenty of other unsavory endeavors. The choice to either delve further into the criminal underworld or to attempt to escape from it's clutches provides more than enough opportunity for drama.

[Thiafy]

There is no gay romance in Mass Effect. There's a little bit with the blue chick, but seriously? No Mass Effect game is worth buying with **** like that. Gameplay sounds average, and a GIANT part of the story forces The Icky Icky Het on you, so ew. No. It's offensive. I'm not signing, I'm just throwing it out there that this (6-8 romances, 0 queers, one GENDERLESS "lesbian") is why I suddenly stopped wanting to buy it. Ever.

[War Houndoom]

And of course the Dark Horse comic forces the Heterosexual route on all of us agian.

[Sahariel]

Thiafy wrote...

There is no gay romance in Mass Effect. There's a little bit with the blue chick, but seriously? No Mass Effect game is worth buying with **** like that. Gameplay sounds average, and a GIANT part of the story forces The Icky Icky Het on you, so ew. No. It's offensive. I'm not signing, I'm just throwing it out there that this (6-8 romances, 0 queers, one GENDERLESS "lesbian") is why I suddenly stopped wanting to buy it. Ever.

You are right there is no gay romance in Mass Effect. The general gameplay is I'm afraid excellent, with many great innovations. The romance plot is a sidequest and completely optional not at all a GIANT part of the story. I suggest you play the game before you criticise it grounds of gameplay and story.

If however the lack of relationship options are grounds enough for you to give it a miss, fair play to you move on and I'll see you in Dragon Age!

[Marta Rio]

Thiafy wrote...
The Icky Icky Het

This sounds like a dance move.  Or an indie band name.

War Houndoom wrote...
And of course the Dark Horse comic forces the Heterosexual route on all of us agian.

So I've seen part of the ManShep version of the comic, and it seemed to me (uh, spoiler alert, I guess) that Liara is kind of emphasized over Ashley as an object of Shep's affection.  I wonder if it's the same monologue for FemShep as well (I'm assuming there's a Femshep version), i.e. promoting (quasi-?)female Liara over Kaidan.

Modifié par Marta Rio, 17 janvier 2011 - 01:07 .

[TuringPoint]

Er, the story never forces anything on you. Some of the dialogs are slippery, but. *shrug*

[earthbornFemShep]

diskoh wrote...

What bothered me the most in ME2 is the absolute awkwardness in how s/s relationships reached the cut-off point and just went to "ok, no more talking" mode.

I was speaking to Miranda, things got emotional and I believe she touched my FemArm, then suddenly it's "there's a lot to do Shepard" for the last 15 hours of gameplay, meanwhile the male Shepard continues to have conversations.

Even if you don't want to include a s/s romance option, it actually was quite offputing how that was handled. They should still be able to speak some more beyond that point, develop a closeness and a friendship... maybe instead of the romance cutscene, they'll have a drink and make it clear and rewarding that you as the player have successfully guided Shepard into a special friendship with this person.

I agree.  This shutting down of the conversations was especially apparent in Miranda and Jack.  Why can't you pursue a friendship option? 

With Jack I wished I had the option to say:
P) Whoa, I just wanted to get to know you as a friend.  I didn't mean to upset you.
N) Oh, sorry.  I got some mixed signals from you.  If you aren't interested in a relationship, I'd still like to be friends.
R) B***h please.  Don't flatter yourself.  I'm not interested in you that way.

With Miranda, well, she never hinted that she thought you liked her, but she was quick to give you the cold shoulder after such an intimate scene (by 'intimate' I don't mean romantic.  I mean 'warm' or 'dear').  My Shepard felt completely blown off.

However, this was true with a romanceless Garrus in ME2 and Liara in ME1.  If you didn't romance them, they pretty much just quit talking to you.  Lame.

EDIT:  I realized that this is slightly off topic.  So let me relate it to the topic.
Since we don't have these "friendship" dialogues, it is hard to tell more information about that character.  Who knows why Miranda stopped talking to Shepard?  Was it because she thought Shepard was hitting on her and she wanted it to stop?  Was it because Miranda was developing feelings toward Shepard and it made her uneasy when conversing with Shepard?  Did she really just have "a lot to do"?  idk.  But since these questions are unanswered for a lot of the characters (especially tali, geez).  Who can say if they are straight or bi. 

For characters in general, I don't think all of them have clearly defined sexual orientations.  Closeted individuals often use misdirection in order to avoid being outed.  Changing names and pronouns when talking about past relationships isn't uncommon.  Further, some will go as far as dating a member of the opposite sex in order to avoid being seen as gay.  I'm NOT saying that any of the characters have done either of these things or are closeted.  However, I do not believe that it's out of the realm of possibilities.  Although, since most of the characters can be romance by the opposite sex Shepard, I would highly doubt any of them are closet homosexuals (more likely, they could be closeted bisexuals).

just my 2 cents.

Modifié par earthbornFemShep, 17 janvier 2011 - 08:22 .

[War Houndoom]

Bump For The LOVE

[Jibbed34]

There should be options available for gay relationships with ALL squadmates, I don't see why not.

I'm personally straight, and as long as these options only become available if you intentionally pursue them, then I'm fine with them being in the game.

[Khem]

Is the majority opinion that a same sex love interest should be a squad member?



Gianna Parasini the agent from Noveria (later seen on Illium) would make a nice, strong-willed independent liaison for Sheps of either gender and then there's the Normandy crew, of course. For example, Joker's orientation has not been even hinted at, and his self-confidence issues would be a good explanation for earlier silence. You know, the selflessly (and, in his mind, hopelessly) in love kind of person who spent the last two years preparing for Shepards uncertain return... Cute, smart, able and voiced by Seth Green. :-)