9243 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

I'm not sure about those replies from developers, sounds like they were trying to avoid another Fox debacle? honestly, I think Shep can be anything he or she wants to be, to me its the npc's that are locked into a certain behavior pattern. which is why having everyone be bisexual and attracted to Shep universally just feels ridiculous.

[2kgnsiika]

jeweledleah wrote...

I'm not sure about those replies from developers, sounds like they were trying to avoid another Fox debacle? honestly, I think Shep can be anything he or she wants to be, to me its the npc's that are locked into a certain behavior pattern. which is why having everyone be bisexual and attracted to Shep universally just feels ridiculous.

I'm not opposed to Shepard being anything from gay to straight to religious to atheist to vegan to psychopathic to racist to hippie or whatever as long as he/she can be an interesting character. But variety is always at the cost of nuance. Since there is always a limited amount of resources devoted to any aspect of game developing, having a more strictly defined character will allow for more nuance within those parameters. For example, since Shepard is a hero (not a villain) no matter what, you have the option to make him into very specific kind of hero. It's not like KotOR, where you're basically a saint or a bloodthirsty murder (not that there's anything wrong with this).

I think this is what Casey Hudson and Ray Muzyka were trying to say. If male Shepard is defined as manly, then he can't be effeminate. Or if he's straight, he can't be gay. 

[2kgnsiika]

Ryzaki wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

Wow, this thread is still going on.

You people do realize that having a male Shepard who is 100% straight is a creative decision already made by BioWare and there will never be M/M romance for Shepard in Mass Effect 3.

Shepard isn't 100% straight. By god am I sick of people saying that.

Where is Shepard ever forced to admit a sexual attraction to females? 

Where? 

Where does Shepard admit to not being sexually attracted to males?

Edit: That abomination known as a comic can burn in hell. It didn't get half of the things it was talking about correct.

Genesis may be incorrect about many things, but it is Shepard speaking. No matter how much you hate it, it's still canonical material that gives definitive proof about maleShep's heterosexuality.

[Ryzaki]

2kgnsiika wrote...

Genesis may be incorrect about many things, but it is Shepard speaking. No matter how much you hate it, it's still canonical material that gives definitive proof about maleShep's heterosexuality.

....You have to be kidding me.

So the Citadel was only one of many mass relays into dark space?

The Rachni Queen was hostile in ME1? And left with a bunch of her "drones"?

Really? 

Shepard considers Kaidan a "good kid" despite Kaidan being older ? 

No. Genesis is a steaming pile of crap that doesn't even tell the story it was supposed to tell properly. That rag can burn for all I care.

It doesn't give definitive proof of anything because if it did it means almost all FemShep's are bisexual or gay. Which is nonsense considering Shepard in ME1 can sa that she's only interested in men. The games > that comic that doesn't get half the things that actually occured right.


...
Gah. I ranted. But still Genesis =/= ME games. It's a horrible summarization that should've been done much better.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 janvier 2011 - 09:29 .

[JrayM16]

2kgnsiika wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

Wow, this thread is still going on.

You people do realize that having a male Shepard who is 100% straight is a creative decision already made by BioWare and there will never be M/M romance for Shepard in Mass Effect 3.

Shepard isn't 100% straight. By god am I sick of people saying that.

Where is Shepard ever forced to admit a sexual attraction to females? 

Where? 

Where does Shepard admit to not being sexually attracted to males?

Edit: That abomination known as a comic can burn in hell. It didn't get half of the things it was talking about correct.

Genesis may be incorrect about many things, but it is Shepard speaking. No matter how much you hate it, it's still canonical material that gives definitive proof about maleShep's heterosexuality.

What is the comic debacle that people are talking about anyway? 

[Ryzaki]

Everything wrong with Genesis



Post by didymos1120 on BSN:

A lot of this stuff has been listed before, but I've decided to just consolidate all the problems I and others have seen. I've tried emphasize why it's so bad for someone who knows nothing about ME1, and I've mostly avoided the art, except where it violates continuity. Keep in mind how a lot of this will seem after someone gets into the game and starts getting exposition on a lot of this stuff:



Normandy's just some ship.



Shep's just some guy. Not a Spectre candidate.



Nothing about humanity's current place, or the basics of the setting.



Nihlus? Gone.



Joker? Gone.



Geth? What are those?



Only an Alliance patrol was attacked. Not Eden Prime as a whole. It also gives the impression that Sovereign did it, not the geth. No video transmission, and the patrol "couldn't explain" what they'd seen. Then they change that during the beacon scene: now the colony was attacked.



Kaidan? He's a "good kid". He also uses an assault rifle throughout the comic. Later on Virmire: "Save Kaiden."



Biotics. What are they? Good question. We won't be answering it at this time.



There's a dead krogan next to the beacon.



The Citadel and Council are just dropped in with no explanation as to what either is. Spectres aren't explained either. Shep just becomes one for some reason.



There was some unspecified, additional evidence connecting Saren to Sovereign.



Udina's just a guy. His personality is elided pretty much entirely, with just a little bit mentioned at the very end.



Garrus is "a top agent for Citadel Security." Uh, huh?



Tali's a fugitive. From what? Why? Who knows.



Tali's evidence was apparently a holographic recording of Saren. It also somehow proved Sovereign was his flagship.



Why is Wrex even involved? He just had some unspecified "intel". Why'd he have it? What was it? More good questions.



Wrex's armor starts out short-sleeved, then reverts to normal on Virmire. (yeah, nitpick, but that's just sloppy)



Reapers allegedly kill everything every 50,000 years. It almost sounds like this is a commonly known thing. Oh and that fact alone is supposed to "explain" why Saren's trying to bring about their return. Until the comic gets to Virmire and suddenly it doesn't explain it, and Shep wonders why Saren's doing all this. Which by the way is never explained. Sovereign just indocrinated him at some point apparently.



BTW, what's indoctrination exactly?



Anderson voluntarily gives up command of the Normandy. His connection to Saren? What connection?



Therum? No mention. Liara is just found somewhere and comes along.



If you didn't know about asari, you could easily think just Liara and her mother had the melding ability, like some sort of mutant superpower.



Noveria's just a name. It comes across like rachni lived there, and Saren conquered them.



Absolutely nothing is said about where on Noveria you fought the rachni.



It's said that Saren was there with Benezia, and you just miss him.



Benezia is just there to extract "information" from the Queen. What it is and why Saren wants it? Not explained.



Benezia's just a name. You see her corpse in one panel, no face.



It's made out like the Rachni Queen was controlling all the workers and warriors.



It's simply said she's "angry and dangerous" and that the "rachni had terrorized the galaxy" before.



Free her and "She left, and took her army of drones with her."



There's no explanation as to why killing the queen would doom the entire species to extinction.



Mu-relay? What's that?



Feros. Cipher. Thorian. All gone.



Shep just finds Virmire somehow.



STG? Kirrahe? Gone. There's a salarian in one panel though.



Indoctrination? Shep figures out what it really is just by talking to Saren on Virmire.



Tank-bred krogan? They "weren't real", and were "mindless beasts".



Genophage? Explained very poorly, but at least it's accurate about what it does explain.



"Wrex disagreed...violently." Uh, he did? If you didn't know better, you'd think he attacked Shep.



"Fortunately, Wrex is smarter than he looks." C'mon, that's just insulting.



No second beacon.



"I split up my team in two squads, sending Ash with one, Kaidan with the other as a distraction. We had a nuke, and we planned to use it." Who the f*ck was in these squads? Why is only one person killed?



Ilos? Just some old planet.



Conduit? Yeah....no.



Vigil? Just a "prothean databank" that Shep was able to access and understand with no problem.



The Cycle? Shep figures that part out on Ilos.



Reapers? On Ilos, Shep learns they really do kill everything, not just spacefaring civilizations.



Citadel? Apparently, not a relay to dark space. There's more than one of those now.



The Citadel controls the mass relays. What's a mass relay? Good question.



Dual-pistol-wielding Tali and Garrus.



Husks have red blood. Not that you'd know what they are as they just appear out of nowhere on the Citadel.



Geth ships don't look right at all. You also have no idea what they are.



Saren "died believing the Reapers would save him."



RoboSaren? Final boss not appearing in this comic.



The impression is given that the Destiny Ascension only comes under attack after Saren's dead. The Asari Councilor personally asks for help.



The Normandy leads a "combined galactic fleet". Humanity and the other races all take down Sovereign.



Despite that "combined galactic fleet", it's just humanity that'll take a hit if the Council is saved.



Try and figure out what the Normandy was actually doing in that battle just going by the art alone.



Udina's office is apparently in a skyscraper. And has glass windows.



"Earned us our first seat on the Council." It's not really wrong....if you have prior knowledge of how the Council works and know there will be successors. Otherwise, you'd think humans could eventually have multiple Councilors at once.



Shep isn't asked to recommend a Councilor. Shep is given full authority to choose, as if that wasn't just a gameplay thing.



Shep isn't assigned to go clean up the geth. Shep goes looking for "answers", and the mop up of Saren's "armies" is just a cover story.

[2kgnsiika]

Ryzaki wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

Genesis may be incorrect about many things, but it is Shepard speaking. No matter how much you hate it, it's still canonical material that gives definitive proof about maleShep's heterosexuality.

....You have to be kidding me.

So the Citadel was only oneof many mass relays into dark space?

The Rachni Queen was hostile in ME1? And left with a bunch of her "drones"?

Really? 

Shepard is a scarred cyborg zombie remembering things that happened to him before his death. You can't expect him to remember everything correctly. This is even written in ME2: even if you raided every last Cerberus base in ME1, you can still say you don't remember Cerberus when you talk to Jacob and Wilson on the Lazarus Station.

However, being attracted to someone is a very personal and important memory and that is something you would expect him to get right.

I'm sorry if you're all butthurt about BioWare ruining your fantasies, but you can't dismiss official material just because it doesn't suit your personal taste.

[Ryzaki]

2kgnsiika wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

Genesis may be incorrect about many things, but it is Shepard speaking. No matter how much you hate it, it's still canonical material that gives definitive proof about maleShep's heterosexuality.

....You have to be kidding me.

So the Citadel was only oneof many mass relays into dark space?

The Rachni Queen was hostile in ME1? And left with a bunch of her "drones"?

Really? 

Shepard is a scarred cyborg zombie remembering things that happened to him before his death. You can't expect him to remember everything correctly. This is even written in ME2: even if you raided every last Cerberus base in ME1, you can still say you don't remember Cerberus when you talk to Jacob and Wilson on the Lazarus Station.

However, being attracted to someone is a very personal and important memory and that is something you would expect him to get right.

I'm sorry if you're all butthurt about BioWare ruining your fantasies, but you can't dismiss official material just because it doesn't suit your personal taste.

/facepalms

I don't know why I bothered thinking you were anything other than a troll.

Because apparently Shepard saying he felt nothing in ME1 suddenly means he felt perfect and enjoyed he mindmeldingin the comic. Let's completely ignore you know...ME1.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 janvier 2011 - 09:38 .

[2kgnsiika]

Ryzaki wrote...
snip

A lot might be "wrong" with Genesis in the sense that if fails to explain everything to a new player. However, only a small fraction of those things amount to actual errors that clearly contradict established facts.

Shepard's heterosexuality contradicts nothing seen or heard in the actual game, so there is no reason to question Genesis' accuracy in that respect.

[JrayM16]

Ryzaki wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

Genesis may be incorrect about many things, but it is Shepard speaking. No matter how much you hate it, it's still canonical material that gives definitive proof about maleShep's heterosexuality.

....You have to be kidding me.

So the Citadel was only oneof many mass relays into dark space?

The Rachni Queen was hostile in ME1? And left with a bunch of her "drones"?

Really? 

Shepard is a scarred cyborg zombie remembering things that happened to him before his death. You can't expect him to remember everything correctly. This is even written in ME2: even if you raided every last Cerberus base in ME1, you can still say you don't remember Cerberus when you talk to Jacob and Wilson on the Lazarus Station.

However, being attracted to someone is a very personal and important memory and that is something you would expect him to get right.

I'm sorry if you're all butthurt about BioWare ruining your fantasies, but you can't dismiss official material just because it doesn't suit your personal taste.

/facepalms

I don't know why I bothered thinking you were anything other than a troll.

Because apparently Shepard saying he felt nothing in ME1 suddenly means he felt perfect and enjoyed he mindmeldingin the comic. Let's completely ignore you know...ME1.

From where I'm sitting neither of you are being very productive.  Let's chill.

[Ryzaki]

2kgnsiika wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
snip

A lot might be "wrong" with Genesis in the sense that if fails to explain everything to a new player. However, only a small fraction of those things amount to actual errors that clearly contradict established facts.

Shepard's heterosexuality contradicts nothing seen or heard in the actual game, so there is no reason to question Genesis' accuracy in that respect.

But Genesis itself contradicts several things ingame. So yes its accuracy is extremely suspect! 

Plus you don't have to romance *anyone* in Gensis anyways so it doesn't make him heterosexual by default regardless.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 janvier 2011 - 09:44 .

[2kgnsiika]

Ryzaki wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

Genesis may be incorrect about many things, but it is Shepard speaking. No matter how much you hate it, it's still canonical material that gives definitive proof about maleShep's heterosexuality.

....You have to be kidding me.

So the Citadel was only oneof many mass relays into dark space?

The Rachni Queen was hostile in ME1? And left with a bunch of her "drones"?

Really? 

Shepard is a scarred cyborg zombie remembering things that happened to him before his death. You can't expect him to remember everything correctly. This is even written in ME2: even if you raided every last Cerberus base in ME1, you can still say you don't remember Cerberus when you talk to Jacob and Wilson on the Lazarus Station.

However, being attracted to someone is a very personal and important memory and that is something you would expect him to get right.

I'm sorry if you're all butthurt about BioWare ruining your fantasies, but you can't dismiss official material just because it doesn't suit your personal taste.

/facepalms

I don't know why I bothered thinking you were anything other than a troll.

Because apparently Shepard saying he felt nothing in ME1 suddenly means he felt perfect and enjoyed he mindmeldingin the comic. Let's completely ignore you know...ME1.

I see you're running out of actual arguments.

Fans like you want to see problems wherever they can be imagined to exist. Instead of trying to fit information from two sources together, you automatically dismiss anything from one source that even seemingly differs from information from another source.

Shepard's recollection of the melding can be explained in the following way: he never explicitly said that he felt nothing. He only says that he doesn't feel tired afterwards, unlike Liara. Not feeling tired does not mean not feeling a thing.

See? Simple.

[2kgnsiika]

JrayM16 wrote...
From where I'm sitting neither of you are being very productive.  Let's chill.

Hey, I'm just trying to establish Genesis as a canonical source (which it is unless otherwise stated by BioWare).

[Ryzaki]

/facepalms

You're saying that if the comic contradicts the game that the comic somehow overrides the game.

Not once in the game does Shepard express attraction to Liara unless you romance her. IN the comic this is so.

Shep's recollection is he didn't feel a thing. Yes he does say that. He says he feels fine. I'm pretty sure if he felt good or pleasant he wouldn't have hid that. He had no reason to.

Nothing in Shep's body language or tone give the sense that he felt anything at all.

You have no options to say you felt anything.

And yet again: This doesn't "prove" Shepard's heterosexuality. He could just as easily be bisexual if the forced attraction to Liara is canon.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 janvier 2011 - 09:50 .

[2kgnsiika]

Ryzaki wrote...

But Genesis itself contradicts several things ingame. So yes its accuracy is extremely suspect! 

Plus you don't have to romance *anyone* in Gensis anyways so it doesn't make him heterosexual by default regardless.

Genesis is Shepard talking about things that happened many years ago. Although it is obvious that it contains unintentional contradictions, just like the game itself, the Codex, the novels etc, we should not assume a contradiction as long as it can be explained away.

This is what fans do with other franchises all the time. Because the canon of Mass Effect has not been that well established by BioWare yet, the best we can do is try to fit all source material together as well as we can, not cry about apparent mistakes or contradictions.

[Ryzaki]

2kgnsiika wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But Genesis itself contradicts several things ingame. So yes its accuracy is extremely suspect! 

Plus you don't have to romance *anyone* in Gensis anyways so it doesn't make him heterosexual by default regardless.

Genesis is Shepard talking about things that happened many years ago. Although it is obvious that it contains unintentional contradictions, just like the game itself, the Codex, the novels etc, we should not assume a contradiction as long as it can be explained away.

This is what fans do with other franchises all the time. Because the canon of Mass Effect has not been that well established by BioWare yet, the best we can do is try to fit all source material together as well as we can, not cry about apparent mistakes or contradictions.

It happened 2 years ago. Not many years. Two years. If you can't remember important events from two years ago (but can be bothered remembering how someone looked and how "special" the mindmeld was) your memory is atrocious.

...And yeah we're not going to agree.

To veer back on topic: Forced attraction the blue haired stalker or not he's not canoically heterosexual. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 janvier 2011 - 09:57 .

[2kgnsiika]

Ryzaki wrote...

/facepalms

You're saying that if the comic contradicts the game that the comic somehow overrides the game.

Not once in the game does Shepard express attraction to Liara unless you romance her. IN the comic this is so.

Shep's recollection is he didn't feel a thing. Yes he does say that. He says he feels fine. I'm pretty sure if he felt good or pleasant he wouldn't have hid that. He had no reason to.

Nothing in Shep's body language or tone give the sense that he felt anything at all.

You have no options to say you felt anything.

And yet again: This doesn't "prove" Shepard's heterosexuality. He could just as easily be bisexual if the forced attraction to Liara is canon.

Check this video: 

At 8:07 she (in this case) says: "Are you sure it was the joining? I feel fine." This does not amount to saying "I feel nothing."

You are right that there are no positive indicators about Shepards possible feelings, but he is a very stoic person. There could be all kinds of things going through his mind, yet he can appear calm because he is an elite soldier who has learned to master his emotions and focus on his duties.

Nothing in the game contradicts the fact that Shepard felt something. The lack of evidence does not amount to proof of nonexistence. Since Genesis is the only canon source stating something about Shepard's feelings, Shepard's attraction is canon.

But following your logic, if there is no evidence about a particular state of affairs being true, since there is absolutely no hint anywhere in the entire Mass Effect franchise about male Shepard ever experiencing homosexual attraction, then we must assume he is not gay or bisexual.

Besides, the statistical probability of Shepard being bisexual is smaller than him being heterosexual. Anderson had a wife. Therefore he is at least attracted to women. Is he also attracted to men? Same goes for Bailey, Kaidan, Garrus, Jacob, Thane etc. who are all attracted to women. Yet no one projects their own desires on these characters and assumes that they are bisexual. True, you never know, but the statistical probability is low.

[2kgnsiika]

Ryzaki wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But Genesis itself contradicts several things ingame. So yes its accuracy is extremely suspect! 

Plus you don't have to romance *anyone* in Gensis anyways so it doesn't make him heterosexual by default regardless.

Genesis is Shepard talking about things that happened many years ago. Although it is obvious that it contains unintentional contradictions, just like the game itself, the Codex, the novels etc, we should not assume a contradiction as long as it can be explained away.

This is what fans do with other franchises all the time. Because the canon of Mass Effect has not been that well established by BioWare yet, the best we can do is try to fit all source material together as well as we can, not cry about apparent mistakes or contradictions.

It happened 2 years ago. Not many years. Two years. If you can't remember important events from two years ago (but can be bothered remembering how someone looked and how "special" the mindmeld was) your memory is atrocious.

...And yeah we're not going to agree.

To veer back on topic: Forced attraction the blue haired stalker or not he's not canoically heterosexual. <_<

Nothing in Genesis implies that Shepard is speaking in the year 2185. For all we know, he could be remembering this while holding one of his many blue children in his arms...

[shoggoth1890]

Unfortunately I have not read the comic. Could you guys clear up the reference? Does he explicitly state "I am not gay" or "I have no attraction to men"? Or is it a forced interest in a person without mention of his take on the opposite gender? Or did he express lack of interest in a specific man(please get your hand out of my pocket Garrus)?

[shoggoth1890]

2kgnsiika wrote...

Yet no one projects their own desires on these characters and assumes that they are bisexual

Erm... how do you know?



People project their own desires on characters all the time, more so in RPGs, and even more so in Mass Effect. All choices you make in the game are an expression of placing your desires upon your character.

[2kgnsiika]

shoggoth1890 wrote...

Unfortunately I have not read the comic. Could you guys clear up the reference? Does he explicitly state "I am not gay" or "I have no attraction to men"? Or is it a forced interest in a person without mention of his take on the opposite gender? Or did he express lack of interest in a specific man(please get your hand out of my pocket Garrus)?

LOL at the Garrus comment! He expresses  attraction toward Liara, and possibly toward Ash. He never mentions any feelings toward anyone male.

The full comic is here:

[2kgnsiika]

shoggoth1890 wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...
Yet no one projects their own desires on these characters and assumes that they are bisexual

Erm... how do you know?

People project their own desires on characters all the time, more so in RPGs, and even more so in Mass Effect. All choices you make in the game are an expression of placing your desires upon your character.

Okay, so they probably do! 

But when gamers see a character like Garrus or Jacob, who clearly express their attraction towards women and express no attraction toward any man, an overwhelming majority will assume that they are hetersexuals.

[Ryzaki]

2kgnsiika wrote...


Nothing in Genesis implies that Shepard is speaking in the year 2185. For all we know, he could be remembering this while holding one of his many blue children in his arms...

...Are you serious?

The narration occurs before you start playing ME2. If this narration was after he married the blue stalker there would be no reason for the player to start playing instead of continuing with the comic.

And Shepard is not stoic. Or did you not play a renegade/paragon? There are plenty of moments where Shep shows emotion.

And there is absolutely no reason for him not to say he/she found it pleasant.

And about probability. That's all well and go except for the fact that you know this is a roleplaying game and we're roleplaying Shepard.

If you're Shepard isn't gay. Hurray!
That doesn't make someone else's Shepard straight.

BW's Shepard happens to be a Earthborn Soul Survivor Male Soldier, Heterosexual but without an LI.

That's not everyone's Shepard. Never has been never will be.

Plus the disgusting double standard of FemShep being able to be bisexual but not dude Shep bothers me.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:38 .

[jeweledleah]

I don't think sexuality of Garrus or Jacob is in question here. only that of Shepard. and Shepard can have any sexuality we give to him or her. the issue people have is that if Shepard is gay, he/she doesn't have romantic choices...which in a way is not to far from real life sometimes.



Shepard can be gay and still kick ass, that is ALSO not in question. Shepard can be professional and never romance ANY of his crew. Or it might be due to just not being attracted to any of the options rather then unprofessionalism, or maybe player decided that Shep's backstory involves preexisting relationship. Shepard, is what we make him/her, sure there are certain parameters to his or her behavious, but I'm not seeing how sexuality is one of them - that's the part that's open to player's choice.



However, it would bug me tremendously if due to political correctness straight NPC's were changed to bisexual. it would be lovely if there were new characters in ME3 that were gay or bi - heck, make Big Ben gay and potential LI, that would disappoint legions of female Sheps, but it would totally fit with the darker mood and realism of relationships.



hmm I think I've said a lot of the above already, repeating myself ftw!

[shoggoth1890]

2kgnsiika wrote...

But when gamers see a character like Garrus or Jacob, who clearly express their attraction towards women and express no attraction toward any man, an overwhelming majority will assume that they are hetersexuals.

True, but the same can be said about someone expecting a previously unseen protagonist to be white. Does that mean the option to be a different race is not to be presented? If it is presented, does it ruin things for you that the option is there, even though it doesn't have to be taken?