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[2kgnsiika]

Ryzaki wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...


Nothing in Genesis implies that Shepard is speaking in the year 2185. For all we know, he could be remembering this while holding one of his many blue children in his arms...

...Are you serious?

The narration occurs before you start playing ME2. If this narration was after he married the blue stalker there would be no reason for the player to start playing instead of continuing with the comic.

And Shepard is not stoic. Or did you not play a renegade/paragon? There are plenty of moments where Shep shows emotion.

And there is absolutely no reason for him not to say he/she found it pleasant.

Maybe the comic was a bedtime story to 20-year-old Benezia Shepard who is still afraid of the dark? Maybe Daddy just wanted to tell little Benezia about those events and will continue tomorrow? Who knows?

The fact that Shepard can show what he feels does not mean he always chooses to. And just because he loses control of his emotions sometimes does not mean he has zero ability to hide what he is thinking or feeling.

Again, lack of evidence does not amount to proof of nonexistence. Also there is proof to the contrary (i.e. Genesis).

Q.E.D.

Modifié par 2kgnsiika, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:42 .

[shoggoth1890]

Again I have to ask just what the proof is.

[MisterDyslexo]

Can I just say that the game clearly takes precedent over the crappy, very inaccurate comic book? And while there is no evidence that Shep is gay, neither is there that Shep is straight (Male that is, female shepard is obvious...). That unknown is the very thing on which role-playing is based. We get a body (which we can usually alter) with some attributes and skills (which are usually alterable as well), but not much else. A little backstory in which we can not deduct anything in particular about our character except events in their life that is meant to impact RPing. There is nothing in the past saying anything about MaleShep past romantic history, so that slate IS clean. Which means we, the (role) player can paint a canvas on it. To limit a sexuality is to go against the very fabric of role-playing.

And as for "Well they were 'x' in this so they can't be 'y' in this", the game takes precedence over anything else, and just because your Shep even blatantly said something or did something that reveals character doesn't mean that it isn't bull***. Shepard can say "I'm only interested in men" in the first game but then "have dinner" with Kelly in the second. Although not a role-playing game, you were misled about your characters intentions throughout the entire course of the game Bioshock up until the moment you met Andrew Ryan face-to-face (which IMO was an absolutely ingenious thing to do and I applaud the team at 2k).

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:47 .

[Ryzaki]

shoggoth1890 wrote...

Again I have to ask just what the proof is.

This.

Genesis has no proof of being told anytime after ME3. And it sure in hell doesn't prove that Shepard romanced Liara (hell you can choose to romance someone else or anyone at all).

And dude do you know what stoic is?

Shepard would've said if it felt pleasant. Either simply out f curiosty or to see if Liara felt it too. (And hell a renegade defintely would've mentioned it probably even angry "that alien tried to molest me!" )

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:47 .

[2kgnsiika]

shoggoth1890 wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...
But when gamers see a character like Garrus or Jacob, who clearly express their attraction towards women and express no attraction toward any man, an overwhelming majority will assume that they are hetersexuals.

True, but the same can be said about someone expecting a previously unseen protagonist to be white. Does that mean the option to be a different race is not to be presented? If it is presented, does it ruin things for you that the option is there, even though it doesn't have to be taken?

That statement is questionable at best. Even if every white person ever thought that, a very large number of the audience would not. And I'm not sure your analogy is valid. When you have a character that has a known characteristic (in this case, heterosexual attraction) but no evidence of a contrasting characteristic (homosexual attraction), it is not the same as having an unknown character without any known characteristics pointing toward a particular attribute (in this case, light skin tone).

[Ryzaki]

2kgnsiika wrote...

That statement is questionable at best. Even if every white person ever thought that, a very large number of the audience would not. And I'm not sure your analogy is valid. When you have a character that has a known characteristic (in this case, heterosexual attraction) but no evidence of a contrasting characteristic (homosexual attraction), it is not the same as having an unknown character without any known characteristics pointing toward a particular attribute (in this case, light skin tone).

Except for the fact that you know...Shepard doesn't actually have to romance Liara.

Gay men can find straight woman good looking. Tis not a foreign concept.

[2kgnsiika]

Ryzaki wrote...

shoggoth1890 wrote...

Aain I have to ask just what the proof is.

This.

Genesis has no proof of being told anytime after ME3. And it sure in hell doesn't prove that Shepard romanced Liara (hell you can choose to romance someone else or anyone at all).

And dude do you know what stoic is?

Shepard would've said if it felt pleasant. Either simply out f curiosty or to see if Liara felt it too. (And hell a renegade defintely would've mentioned it probably even angry "that alien tried to molest me!" )

Nothing in Genesis proves that it was narrated at any particular time. We simply have no idea when Shepard is telling the story.

stoic |ˈstō-ik|noun1 a person who can endure pain or hardship without showing their feelings or complaining.

As I said, Shepard is a person who is stoic (a common characteristic for soldiers) and able to control his feelings (well, at least most of the time).

And now who is attempting to canonize their own preferred features! Why can't Shepard keep certain things to himself?

And do I have to repeate myself over and over again?

Lack of evidence does not amount to proof of nonexistence, especially when there is a source claiming otherwise.

[2kgnsiika]

Ryzaki wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

That statement is questionable at best. Even if every white person ever thought that, a very large number of the audience would not. And I'm not sure your analogy is valid. When you have a character that has a known characteristic (in this case, heterosexual attraction) but no evidence of a contrasting characteristic (homosexual attraction), it is not the same as having an unknown character without any known characteristics pointing toward a particular attribute (in this case, light skin tone).

Except for the fact that you know...Shepard doesn't actually have to romance Liara.

Gay men can find straight woman good looking. Tis not a foreign concept.

Finding someone good-looking is not quite the same as being attracted to someone (which Shepard is).

[Ryzaki]

Okay then. Shepard was secretly have sex with Kaidan Alenko (Male or Female Shepard)



After all nothing contradicts! Lack of evidence doesn't amount to proof of nonexistence!

[JrayM16]

Modifié par JrayM16, 26 janvier 2011 - 11:05 .

[Ryzaki]

^You do realize I was trying to point out his flawed logic to him right?

And yet again I wonder why oh why couldn't PS3 players just get ME1. *sigh* It would've been better for everyone.

...And the fact that the lead writer worked on it but got the story of ME1 was wrong is just...just...urgh.

Also: Nothing says Shepard's sexually attracted to Liara (other than doing her romance) he calls her beautiful. That doesn't equal wanting to have sex wtih someone.

I called a husky beautiful the first time I saw him. I didn't want to sleep with it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 janvier 2011 - 11:07 .

[JrayM16]

Ryzaki wrote...

^You do realize I was trying to point out his flawed logic to him right?

And yet again I wonder why oh why couldn't PS3 players just get ME1. *sigh* It would've been better for everyone.

...And the fact that the lead writer worked on it but got the story of ME1 was wrong is just...just...urgh.

I was pointing out his fallacy in the ignorance one and yours in the genetic one.  You believe the comic is a faulty source so you reject all within it.  He assumes that Shepard is straight since there is no proof to the contrary.

[2kgnsiika]

Ryzaki wrote...

Okay then. Shepard was secretly have sex with Kaidan Alenko (Male or Female Shepard)

After all nothing contradicts! Lack of evidence doesn't amount to proof of nonexistence!

Okay. There is nothing to contradict that but there is also no reason to assume that.

However, we do have a reason to assume Shepard was attracted to Liara. See the difference?

[Ryzaki]

JrayM16 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^You do realize I was trying to point out his flawed logic to him right?

And yet again I wonder why oh why couldn't PS3 players just get ME1. *sigh* It would've been better for everyone.

...And the fact that the lead writer worked on it but got the story of ME1 was wrong is just...just...urgh.

I was pointing out his fallacy in the ignorance one and yours in the genetic one.  You believe the comic is a faulty source so you reject all within it.  He assumes that Shepard is straight since there is no proof to the contrary.

Ah.

Why would I accept a comic that forces an attraction on a character who when I played the original game displayed no such attraction? Why should I accept one that contradicts (or flat out ignores) information we got in the actual game itself? 

It's not like the data is correct but has extra bits.

[2kgnsiika]

JrayM16 wrote...

I hate logical fallacies. Could you kindly demonstrate the fault in my logic, if my reasoning really is faulty?

[MisterDyslexo]

Ryzaki now you're just trolling. I realize that you probably feel they're a troll, and if thats the case:





The debate right now seems to be "existence vs non-existence", and we could do this all day, but nobody will change, and the thread might just get locked instead. He's standing at a point where he won't budge because he won't look at it from the other way, which disregards canonization, but cites a source in the game itself (or at least what he feels is part of the game) as wrong.

[Ryzaki]

2kgnsiika wrote...
Okay. There is nothing to contradict that but there is also no reason to assume that.

However, we do have a reason to assume Shepard was attracted to Liara. See the difference?

No actually we don't. We have a reason to assume he found her beautiful. And heck my Renegade Shepard insulted her at every opportunity and found her species disgusting so that isn't even a correct assumption.

So nope. Shepard and Kaidan were having hot steamy sex in ME1. There's nothing to contradict it.

Edit: Sorry sorry I'll stop.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 janvier 2011 - 11:12 .

[2kgnsiika]

JrayM16 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^You do realize I was trying to point out his flawed logic to him right?

And yet again I wonder why oh why couldn't PS3 players just get ME1. *sigh* It would've been better for everyone.

...And the fact that the lead writer worked on it but got the story of ME1 was wrong is just...just...urgh.

I was pointing out his fallacy in the ignorance one and yours in the genetic one.  You believe the comic is a faulty source so you reject all within it.  He assumes that Shepard is straight since there is no proof to the contrary.

You got it wrong. I said there is proof that Shep is straight and no proof to the contrary. No argument from ignorance there.

[JrayM16]

Ryzaki wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^You do realize I was trying to point out his flawed logic to him right?

And yet again I wonder why oh why couldn't PS3 players just get ME1. *sigh* It would've been better for everyone.

...And the fact that the lead writer worked on it but got the story of ME1 was wrong is just...just...urgh.

I was pointing out his fallacy in the ignorance one and yours in the genetic one.  You believe the comic is a faulty source so you reject all within it.  He assumes that Shepard is straight since there is no proof to the contrary.

Ah.

Why would I accept a comic that forces an attraction on a character who when I played the original game displayed no such attraction? Why should I accept one that contradicts (or flat out ignores) information we got in the actual game itself? 

It's not like the data is correct but has extra bits.

There is certainly info that is ignored but none that directly contradicts per se.  You are taking your overall impression of the comic and refuting various things in it because of that. 

BTW, I would like to take this time to say that I am pro ******/bisexual relations in ME.  What I am against is logical fallacies.

[Ryzaki]

JrayM16 wrote...

There is certainly info that is ignored but none that directly contradicts per se.  You are taking your overall impression of the comic and refuting various things in it because of that. 

BTW, I would like to take this time to say that I am pro ******/bisexual relations in ME.  What I am against is logical fallacies.

Really? So the Rachni queen left with her drones? 

Also: She was hostile?

There were mass relays into dark space? 

Kaidan's spelled Kaiden? 

Husks have red blood?

Garrus is a top agent for C-Sec?

Tali/Garrus dual wield?



Shall I go on? 

Shep's "Ooh so smart and beautiful!" to Liara was just more of shoving BW's favorite character down my throat. I'm getting sick of it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 janvier 2011 - 11:19 .

[2kgnsiika]

JrayM16 wrote...
There is certainly info that is ignored but none that directly contradicts per se.  You are taking your overall impression of the comic and refuting various things in it because of that. 

This is what I've been saying the whole time. Accepting Shepard's attraction toward Liara as canon is the best we can do, until BioWare says something to the contrary.

By the way, I have nothing against homosexual characters in any medium. Hell, I even boned Zevran in DA:O. I just think that in this case we have a character who has been clearly defined as heterosexual.

[JrayM16]

2kgnsiika wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^You do realize I was trying to point out his flawed logic to him right?

And yet again I wonder why oh why couldn't PS3 players just get ME1. *sigh* It would've been better for everyone.

...And the fact that the lead writer worked on it but got the story of ME1 was wrong is just...just...urgh.

I was pointing out his fallacy in the ignorance one and yours in the genetic one.  You believe the comic is a faulty source so you reject all within it.  He assumes that Shepard is straight since there is no proof to the contrary.

You got it wrong. I said there is proof that Shep is straight and no proof to the contrary. No argument from ignorance there.

The evidence is questionable but can ostensibly prove that Shepard is not gay, but not that he is straight.  FOr example, a totally straight guy could say that Brad Pitt is a really handsome man.  This does not necessarily mean the man is attracted to Brad Pitt.  You're also ignoring the Bioware stance of Asari being asexual, which is the official cannonical stance of Bioware, albeit they did that mainly to dodge the lesbian sex scene bullet.  Can I definitively prove that Shepard is straight or gay, no.  All I did was show that you lack satisfactory evidence to support your conclusion, therefore, what's left of the argument rests on a logical fallacy.

[2kgnsiika]

Ryzaki wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

There is certainly info that is ignored but none that directly contradicts per se.  You are taking your overall impression of the comic and refuting various things in it because of that. 

BTW, I would like to take this time to say that I am pro ******/bisexual relations in ME.  What I am against is logical fallacies.

Really? So the Rachni queen left with her drones? 

Also: She was hostile?

There were mass relays into dark space? 

Kaidan's spelled Kaiden? 

Husks have red blood?

Garrus is a top agent for C-Sec?

Tali/Garrus dual wield?



Shall I go on? 

I think he means that overall crappiness of Genesis does not mean that it can provide some correct information that does not directly contradict the game.

[Ryzaki]

2kgnsiika wrote...

I think he means that overall crappiness of Genesis does not mean that it can provide some correct information that does not directly contradict the game.

It provided some sure. Not any that wasn't already in the game though. And it contradicted far more than it provided. (For those that it bothered to explain).

I mean for the love of Ra it didn't get the most important plot point about ME1. The fact that the Citadel was the one mass relay* leading into Darkspace correctly...

*as Far as Shepard knows And since Shep's narrating Genesis there's no excuse.

The fact that Walter worked on this makes it a damn embarassement. I'd be humilated if I was in his position.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 janvier 2011 - 11:23 .

[2kgnsiika]

JrayM16 wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^You do realize I was trying to point out his flawed logic to him right?

And yet again I wonder why oh why couldn't PS3 players just get ME1. *sigh* It would've been better for everyone.

...And the fact that the lead writer worked on it but got the story of ME1 was wrong is just...just...urgh.

I was pointing out his fallacy in the ignorance one and yours in the genetic one.  You believe the comic is a faulty source so you reject all within it.  He assumes that Shepard is straight since there is no proof to the contrary.

You got it wrong. I said there is proof that Shep is straight and no proof to the contrary. No argument from ignorance there.

The evidence is questionable but can ostensibly prove that Shepard is not gay, but not that he is straight.  FOr example, a totally straight guy could say that Brad Pitt is a really handsome man.  This does not necessarily mean the man is attracted to Brad Pitt.  You're also ignoring the Bioware stance of Asari being asexual, which is the official cannonical stance of Bioware, albeit they did that mainly to dodge the lesbian sex scene bullet.  Can I definitively prove that Shepard is straight or gay, no.  All I did was show that you lack satisfactory evidence to support your conclusion, therefore, what's left of the argument rests on a logical fallacy.

But my whole argument rests on the evidence, so if I'm wrong it's not because of a logical fallacy but misinterpreted evidence. I merely brought the lack of contrary evidence up, because Ryzaki was claiming that it existed.