9243 réponses à ce sujet

[ZABL2010]

ElitePinecone : “It does strike me as odd that the Shepard/Liara romance is so positive (and with Lair of the Shadow Broker, it gets even better) but Samara's (and Thane's, too) is quite tragic. I guess it does help with the realism and pathos of the universe - can't always have happy endings.”

Romance with Tali and Liara certainly will continue. I hope that their romance will have a result (children) ... More difficult with Ashley (place in ME3). With two friends we prepared romantic story with “favorite character in the game” . For each - separately.

Each of us has "own" Shepard.

http://www.dailymoti...li-ashley_music

[ZABL2010]

Interesting - A love affair with Kasumi in the third part of the game is not planned?

[shoggoth1890]

Tali child can't happen. Not only are they different species, but they have different chirality DNA. You'd sooner be able to have a child with a crocodile.

[MisterDyslexo]

shoggoth1890 wrote...

Tali child can't happen. Not only are they different species, but they have different chirality DNA. You'd sooner be able to have a child with a crocodile.

Same for Garrus, Thane, and another human squadmate who will remain nameless because this is a No Spoiler section. And Samara is old enough that she might be infertile (?) Then JAck I suspect is all kinds of ****ed-up by her childhood, so I would probably be more surprised if she as infact fertile.

[WEIRDLITTLEBRO]

I'm straight IRL. And I'm not a big fan of a homosexual Shepard. HOWEVER, I do think Shepard needs to have the option of a same-sex relationship for people to choose if they so desire. Bioware has done it before, they can do it again.

[Sahariel]

Hmmm a solution occurs to me based on Knights Of The Old Republic II: The Sith Lords. In that game you had a whole different romancable NPC that would appear depending on your gender. You had Handmaiden if the PC was male and a character called Disciple if you were female.

Extending this further, if they give you the opportunity to change your class/face or confirm your original Shephard's they could add an option to select Shephard's sexuality, if you have already romanced someone from a previous ME your choices are straight or bi, if you romanced no-one or if you romanced Liara as a femshep your choice then includes homosexuality. If you start a fresh Shephard then you can pick from all three.

Now depending on what you selected the following occurs.
1. If you are straight no new NPC appears in the game.
2. If you are male and homosexual a gay male NPC becomes recruitable.
3. If you are femal and homosexual a lesbian NPC becomes recruitable.
4. If you select that you are bi you get the homosexual NPC spawn that is relevant to your gender, to add an additional same sex NPC to romance.

Now before people say it is too much to code what if NPC's that might not even appear in the majority of playthroughs I simply say it worked in KOTOR II, and in addition to the two NPCs I mentioned above you even had a choice between Mira the Bounty Hunter, and the Wookie Hanarr. One was a more light side and the other was the more dark side option.

Now granted this was an Obsidian game and not Bioware, but there are extra NPCs that appear in Dragon Age, and Mass Effect 2 like Shale, Kasumi or Zaed that won't necessarily appear if you don't have the DLC. My suggestion could work in either the vanilla game of ME3, or as DLC, They would be fully voiced, have realized backstories and personal side quests with a believable and well written romance.

The additional beauty of this implementation, is that anyone who is straight who wouldn't want to see this content simply won't come across it in thier game, and for those that do it can be much more tightly woven into thier stories. The only people who this may not appeal to are those who want to see a specific NPC become bi or gay, but to them I ask if there were excellently written new characters that could fill this void would that be good enough?

Modifié par Sahariel, 31 janvier 2011 - 05:34 .

[1490]

Pacifien wrote...

You know, a character doesn't really have to be defined by his sexuality. He doesn't have to bring sexual innuendo into every conversation. Doesn't have to throw in feeders to see if another guy is interested. He could simply not be interested in pursuing a romantic relationship until the Reapers are on his very doorstep and he has an epiphany that leads him to grab Big Ben Sniper Guy and kiss him passionately before it's all over.
People complain that Shepard is a wooden plank in the games, but the reason why is because it allows great leeway for someone to roleplay the character, filling in the blanks that are never explicitly covered within the game. If you roleplayed Shepard as having no romantic interest in the first two games, it's perfectly reasonable he would be "suddenly" gay in the third game. That is fair.
If you did roleplay Shepard as some hopeless romantic in need of companionship in the first two games, then maybe his sudden turn of interest from the ladies to the men might seem odd. That is the way you chose to roleplay it. There is no wrong way to roleplay.

I know this comment from Pacifien is from a while back, but this pretty much sums up my feelings about same-sex attitudes in ME 3 exactly.  Why the hell not?  People change in real life constantly, why couldn't Shepard change in ME 3?  ME1 to ME3 spans years in game: there is plenty of time for that kind of character development.

[MSparkyPants]

I think just about everyone in the galaxy would like to get in Shep's pants, regardless of gender.



Homosexual/Bisexual characters ftw.

[earthbornFemShep]

MSparkyPants wrote...

I think just about everyone in the galaxy would like to get in Shep's pants, regardless of gender.

Homosexual/Bisexual characters ftw.

It is not all about dropping pants... some of us just want to cuddle. 

Same-sex cuddling for the win!

[earthbornFemShep]

Sahariel wrote...
Now depending on what you selected the following occurs.
1. If you are straight no new NPC appears in the game.
2. If you are male and homosexual a gay male NPC becomes recruitable.
3. If you are femal and homosexual a lesbian NPC becomes recruitable.
4. If you select that you are bi you get the homosexual NPC spawn that is relevant to your gender, to add an additional same sex NPC to romance.

I get what you are going for, but I would disagree.  I would like a gay guy and a lesbian woman to both be on my squad if they are given as an option (not just one or the other).  Why can't a straight Shepard team up with a gay/lesbian squad member, or a gay manShep team up with a hetero or lesbian squaddie... or, of course, a lesbian femShep team up with a hetero or gay squaddie?  Being an opposite-sex squad member does necessarily make you go gooey to Shep's charms... though it does for a majority of them.  I mean, Samara, Grunt, Legion, Kasumi, Mordin, and Zaeed were not romanceable... but that doesn't mean you couldn't have them on your squad.  I guess the real question should be:  are you homophobic or not?  If not, then 'yay' to gay characters.  If "yes" then, those 'gay' characters will be nonromanceable characters that don't talk to you about their love life... like Grunt, Zaeed, or Mordin. 

Okay, obviously coming out and asking someone if they are homophobic is offputting.  So, maybe they could have a conversation (much like with Kelly and her interspecies romance talk) where Shepard could express acceptance, neutrality or disapproval.  EDIT: This could also be substituted for Suggestion #6 posted by the OP.

Modifié par earthbornFemShep, 02 février 2011 - 08:20 .

[MSparkyPants]

earthbornFemShep wrote...

It is not all about dropping pants... some of us just want to cuddle. 

Same-sex cuddling for the win!

No, no, no, I did not mean to insinuate that at all! My apologies.
I was going more for the idea that Shepard is naturally a charismatic figure, a striking example of humanity, and that it wouldn't be far fetched at all to assume that a squadmate of the same gender could possibly feel some level of attraction towards him/her, even if they've established themselves as being straight. Like an exception to the rule, let's say. It's a fairly common occurence, so there's no reason for some folks getting uppity about retconing (although that sounds much too strong, perhaps "expanding character traits"  would be more appropriate, lol) characters and somewhat altering a minor part of gameplay to allow for more diversity and immersion.
I agree completely, my FemShep would very much like to cuddle with a certain quarian engineer, but she's too focused on the silly drivecore :C

Modifié par MSparkyPants, 02 février 2011 - 08:57 .

[earthbornFemShep]

MSparkyPants wrote...

earthbornFemShep wrote...

It is not all about dropping pants... some of us just want to cuddle. 

Same-sex cuddling for the win!

No, no, no, I did not mean to insinuate that at all! My apologies.
*snip*

No need to apologize.  I just wanted to point out, for the record, that this thread is for same-sex relationships not just sex.  Some people that are against s/s LI are most squeemish about the sex part.  I didn't think that's what you were trying to say, but that is how it could have been interpretted to those who use this forum primarily to bash this request. 

What heartless person is against cuddling? 

[Dominus]

Fight For the Love, Page 158. As I wandered down into the shattered catacombs below the Bioware Offices, I discovered a mysterious artifact of undeniably alien design. As I reached to grab the strange device, it vanished into thin air. Confused, I called scotty, had him beam me up, and all was well. The End. I wonder if this thread will exist after ME3... one way to find out.

[LOST GAM3R]

I made this myself. 

 

Modifié par LOST GAM3R, 02 février 2011 - 10:44 .

[DCopeland]

Please Yiff in hell.

[LOST GAM3R]

Blow it out your ass. 

Modifié par LOST GAM3R, 02 février 2011 - 11:54 .

[MisterDyslexo]

For all you know, there may have been a furry romance in ME2. Well, if you're into furries with helmets.

[Jademoon121]

....
How does furryfandom have anything to do with this? Just wondering.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 03 février 2011 - 05:47 .

[Sahariel]

earthbornFemShep wrote...

Sahariel wrote...
Now depending on what you selected the following occurs.
1. If you are straight no new NPC appears in the game.
2. If you are male and homosexual a gay male NPC becomes recruitable.
3. If you are femal and homosexual a lesbian NPC becomes recruitable.
4. If you select that you are bi you get the homosexual NPC spawn that is relevant to your gender, to add an additional same sex NPC to romance.

I get what you are going for, but I would disagree.  I would like a gay guy and a lesbian woman to both be on my squad if they are given as an option (not just one or the other).  Why can't a straight Shepard team up with a gay/lesbian squad member, or a gay manShep team up with a hetero or lesbian squaddie... or, of course, a lesbian femShep team up with a hetero or gay squaddie?  Being an opposite-sex squad member does necessarily make you go gooey to Shep's charms... though it does for a majority of them.  I mean, Samara, Grunt, Legion, Kasumi, Mordin, and Zaeed were not romanceable... but that doesn't mean you couldn't have them on your squad.  I guess the real question should be:  are you homophobic or not?  If not, then 'yay' to gay characters.  If "yes" then, those 'gay' characters will be nonromanceable characters that don't talk to you about their love life... like Grunt, Zaeed, or Mordin. 

Okay, obviously coming out and asking someone if they are homophobic is offputting.  So, maybe they could have a conversation (much like with Kelly and her interspecies romance talk) where Shepard could express acceptance, neutrality or disapproval.  EDIT: This could also be substituted for Suggestion #6 posted by the OP.

I would agree with you, but the focus I had on this solution is based on the fact that the Mass Effect franchise has not to date been too inclusive of the lgbt community. That said I think the approach I outlined allows for the best compromise. I don't think the situation is as simple as asking "Are you homophobic or not?". There are plenty of people who have felt that the narrative direction the franchise has taken along the straight and narrow would find the sudden inclusion of all this jarring. I also don't think it is fair to lump everyone in the homophobic camp. What I suggested allows it's inclusion for those to whom it would matter, but not create a dissonant third act for those who don't.

On a personal note I would love to see more mainstream media, like cinema, television and gaming to be more inclusive of lgbt themes, and in that I do contradict myself. However I would rather that such were made a focal point of a franchise from it's inception, rather than tacked on at the end. Whilst I applaud Bioware's inclusion of romances, I think that simply making a character bi so they can be romanced by both genders doesn't allow for the whole gamut of human relationships to be explored in any depth, but then again Mass Effect and the genre of adventure, sci-fi it is does not make romance it's primary theme.

[ElitePinecone]

Sahariel wrote...
I would agree with you, but the focus I had on this solution is based on the fact that the Mass Effect franchise has not to date been too inclusive of the lgbt community. That said I think the approach I outlined allows for the best compromise. I don't think the situation is as simple as asking "Are you homophobic or not?". There are plenty of people who have felt that the narrative direction the franchise has taken along the straight and narrow would find the sudden inclusion of all this jarring. I also don't think it is fair to lump everyone in the homophobic camp. What I suggested allows it's inclusion for those to whom it would matter, but not create a dissonant third act for those who don't.

On a personal note I would love to see more mainstream media, like cinema, television and gaming to be more inclusive of lgbt themes, and in that I do contradict myself. However I would rather that such were made a focal point of a franchise from it's inception, rather than tacked on at the end. Whilst I applaud Bioware's inclusion of romances, I think that simply making a character bi so they can be romanced by both genders doesn't allow for the whole gamut of human relationships to be explored in any depth, but then again Mass Effect and the genre of adventure, sci-fi it is does not make romance it's primary theme.

(I had a long post written but my laptop overheated and I lost it all. Apologies if this isn't as coherent as I'd like it to be).

If I've read your original post correctly, the suggestion is to implement a 'toggle' at the character creation screen that defines an orientation for Shepard and influences the romances s/he can pursue. The idea was extensively discussed in the old iteration of this thread (the 'Same Sex Romances' topic, literally months ago) and as I recall there were some fairly compelling reasons offered that give me second thoughts about such an option. I'll try to explain why.

Firstly, a toggle imposes discreteness on something that's fairly fluid. As has been discussed before, many of the romances in the Mass Effect universe (as improbable as they all may be) tend to revolve around a sort of character worship for Shepard, especially in the case of Garrus and Tali. We've yet to agree on what a female Shep/Liara romance should be called, and given that many of the aliens Shepard can romance have (to our knowledge) extremely varied biology and anatomy it would be odd to give any of these a human romance category. 

Secondly, related to the first point, the toggle would pose problems for those wanting greater choice, and also some practical issues. Given that a toggle is restrictive ather than creative (i.e. cutting off some dialogue rather than creating or implementing it), and that it lasts for an entire playthrough, many players (including those who wouldn't necessarily identify with s/s romances themselves, but want more choice) may see it as unnecessarily putting barriers in place of good storytelling, even if that storytelling is Shepard rejecting wave after wave of potential suitors.

There are also some practical problems. Shepard's orientation presumably isn't public knowledge, so new crewmembers/potential romance options would have to have 'a conversation' anyway in order to make things clear. Unlike other background choices (psychological profile or service history, for example) Shepard's orientation would almost certainty not be in his/her military record, have media coverage or be widely known to the galaxy at large. It would look awfully weird if squadmates 'knew' Shepard was or wasn't interested by instinct, without any conversations, rejections, denials or questions. 

Finally, including the orientation toggle in such a prominent place (the character creation screen) makes it - arguably - too big a deal and might highlight a part of the game that many of its detractors may never even have noticed anyway. By 'too big a deal', I mean that it hauls into prominance a part of Shepard's character that shouldn't even matter, especially in 2186. There is also a risk that a toggle in such a visible place would expose any s/s romances included to wider public attention, especially from the sorts of media outlets that thrive on hysteria and sensationalism (Shepard has the choice to lead a deviant lifestyle! THEY'RE INDOCTRINATING YOUR KIDS! etc). We've seen how much attention was given to ten seconds of a 40-hour game, and how that attention was retracted once critics realised 40 hours of other content surrounded it. What I'd fear is that a toggle would telegraph the inclusion of s/s romances to those who never would've noticed them anyway.

Apologies if this is too much criticism, but the proposal has been discussed exhaustively before and I just wanted to make those few points. I'm definitely in favour of the idea if it would make it easier to implement s/s romances - but I think a dialogue-based system with options to reject any romantic advances (opposite or same gendered) is both easier to implement and more plausible than defining sexuality from character creation. 

One more thing: I don't sympathise with claims that introducing s/s romances would be an issue of jarring dissonance or a lack of continuity. Game development is by definition an iterative and innovative process, and often this innovation does involve universe-breaking continuity issues (the whole heat sink fiasco, for example). While complaining about genuine dissonance is fine, in this case, I'd argue, it's often just a veneer for hiding less charitable views about gay and lesbian people. Of greater concern is how people can accept romances with Garrus and Tali on the one hand while crowing about jarring discontinuity on the other. It's a double standard that needs to be challenged. 

</rant>

[Demonhoopa]

This isn't just an issue for our gay gaming community.



Many of us straight males prefer girl on girl. Not having Jack as an option for female shepard is an epic fail of galactic proportions.

[Sahariel]

ElitePinecone wrote...
Snipped for brevity.

(First of all your post was perfectly succinct and well though out. However allow me to reply.)

I wasn't seeing the option at character creation or import as asinine as a "toggle", but simply like the options one makes about class, or service history. In fact to expand on the idea somewhat the recruitable NPC's in my mind would be individuals from Commander Shephard's pre-Mass Effect 1 career. In that way they can be considered relevant and given a certain amount of weight in the story without having been present in ME1 or ME2. That said your points about toggles while valid I don't think completely apply with what I had in mind.

Also all the romance option aliens DO have a clearly deliniated gender. Garrus is quite clearly male and masculine in his outlook and demeanor, so too are Tali and Liara both feminine (thankfully in different ways). Whilst the alien/human angle does raise questions as to how it all works, simply in terms of having these characters comparable in gender to human males or females allows you to put a homosexual/straight label on them. I would almost agree that with Asari appearing to look appealing depending on who views them, why then even if you are playing a straight female Shephard do they still look svelte and feminine?

I for one would get bothered if every squadmate gets enamoured of my shep, I get somewhat annoyed that with both Jack and Miranda in ME2 if you don't sleep with them their whole narrative just stops with no possiblity for a warm friendship. Looking to Dragon Age's Morrigan there is this incredibly moving moment when having chosen not to romance her she has this quite heartfelt conversation about true freindship. Having all my ME friendships hit a brick wall would to me feel crude.

Have you not heard of "gaydar"? In my day to day life I'm amazed that my real life friends who are gay or bi seem to have this sixth sense as to who may or may not be approachable to a liason. In this I don't think it unreasonable for a homosexual Shephard to project an "air" that attracts same sex couplings. In fact the people who are most likely to get it wrong are stright crewmates who quite understandably do not pick up on it.

The solution to media hysteria of people crying that mass effect is allowing deviant relationships is to simply ignore it. There is nothing wrong with same sex relationships, my concerns have and will alwaye be for the ongoing narrative. Kids also should not be playing it, as I believe it's rated M for Mature in the US as it has a 15 certificate over here in the UK.

You make a huge mistake at the end as far as I'm concerned, nothing in my view is hiding an anti gay agenda. The narrative dissonance I'm referring to is to get two installments into a franchise with hardly any lgbt themes whatsoever, and then suddenly it all inexplicably just comes out in the third game would be dissonant. The heatsink situation is a gameplay mechanic problem, and doesn't impact the story or underlying themes of the trilogy at all. Adding same sex relationships would. Imagine if you will if the next writer in the James Bond franchise suddenly made Bond gay or Bisexual. I can guarantee you a great many perfectly permissive and accepting people would be in an uproar about it. It would in a nutshell feel utterly wrong. Now whilst I don't think it would matter to me overly much there are some people who would feel that way about Shephard, and that doesn't mean they are hiding an lgbt agenda. The option allows to the game to unfold for them completely in keeping with how the first two games do, and the option to add it in would allow for lgbt themes to be explored for those that do. The fact is you are going to hack off all the homophobes out there in any case, and I wouldn't worry about appeasing them on iota, however what I have suggested seems the most elegant compromise.

Also in closing, the people who clamoured for a Tali/Garrus romance aren't necessarily the same people who clamour against same sex romances. It is a little daft if I may say so to think of the Mass Effect forum community as a single gestalt entitly. We are merely individuals with differing points of view. I am sure some people were clamouring for Tali/Garrus who are against same sex, but deal with those people on a case by case basis, do not assume there is a trend.

[ElitePinecone]

Sahariel wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...
Snipped for brevity.

snip

You made some good points - I was rambling a little at the end there, and my collusion of the Tali/Garrus mancers and anti-s/s individuals was probably unfortunate. I guess rather than trying to assign a gestalt entity to the forums my exasperation was more directed to the idea that a change of heart by Tali/Garrus is unquestioned and even welcome, while the inclusion of same-sex romances is picked over and deconstructed for the slightest logical or storytelling fault. 

I'm still wary of the character-creation option (just to clear up terminology, that was what I was referring to by 'toggle' - we called it that in the last thread), probably more on principle than anything else. I don't think it's exactly wise to pander to those who are made uncomfortable by certain topics to give them a highly visible way out that doesn't exist for any other of the game's challenging areas (torture, violence, blood, genocide, et cetera). But I'm sure we can agree  to disagree, and if Bioware does end up implementing such a system I'd be all for it - pragmatism in this case beats priciple.

In my view enhanced dialogue options with clear identification of intentions and subtext (for example, via icons in a system similar to DA2) would allow for the rejection of romances easily while keeping all options open. Depending on how the romances are structured it would be almost trivially easy for those uncomfortable with s/s romances to simply ignore them. 

[Glorious_Leader]

Just to clarify, Shepard can be gay. Liara/Femshep proves this. I do feel that Jack should be a possible love interest for femshep as well. However, my issue with making Kaidan a possible LI is simply that Kaidan isn't gay. The gay community needs to accept that they are a minority. Not every character on Shep's crew is going to happen to bend that way. This is how BioWare designed the character. They shouldn't have to alter their creations because someone doesn't like something about them.