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Modifié par SebastianDA, 04 février 2011 - 03:14 .
Modifié par LtlMac, 04 février 2011 - 03:35 .
LtlMac wrote...
#1
#2 i don't like being 'forced' into homosexual dialogue. What I mean is...in Jad Empite I'm just trying to be nice to whatever that male guys name is (and the Elf in DE Origins)....I'm not trying to hit on the guy. I wish the choices between 'nice' and 'hitting on' were a little more obvious. I forget the exact dialogue....but i just remember one time haveing a convo in and being like "umm...i'm not comfortable with how he is talking to me...but I did sort of ask for it based of what my good old self just unwittingly said...."
Miranda jumping all over maleShep wasn't exactly pleasant...
LtlMac wrote...
I'm all for it as long as it's done in reason. Homosexuality is a natural thing that occurs in life. Here are my only concerns as it applies to video games:
#1 I don't like it when almost every romancable character (female in my case) winds up being bi-sexual.. Jade Emprire was a good example of how this went poorly. It just didn't feel right for me. Only partly because it would be something diffiucltfor me to deal with in real life....the big part, actually, was that even as a straight guy I saw it as a bit of an insult towards homosexuals and diminished the depth of the characters (oh...i'd sleep with anybody who charmed me....etc..)
I would reccomend two 100% gay crew members and 1 Bi (sex of whatever the fans want). Given the size of the crew and the realities of nature I think that is a pretty signifanct percentage of the crew statistically speaking. Gets everyone a chance at a romance while not going overboard with it. "
). So yeah...I'm not getting the JE had so many Bi Lis when they only had one of each. It's just that their was only 3 LIs that it was a large percentage.
ElitePinecone wrote...
LtlMac wrote...
#1
#2 i don't like being 'forced' into homosexual dialogue. What I mean is...in Jad Empite I'm just trying to be nice to whatever that male guys name is (and the Elf in DE Origins)....I'm not trying to hit on the guy. I wish the choices between 'nice' and 'hitting on' were a little more obvious. I forget the exact dialogue....but i just remember one time haveing a convo in and being like "umm...i'm not comfortable with how he is talking to me...but I did sort of ask for it based of what my good old self just unwittingly said...."
On your first point, I don't think anyone is seriously arguing for every squadmember to be suddenly bisexual, that would be very odd. We have no way of knowing what resources Bioware have for romances in ME3 (or even if there *are* romances), but it does involve questions of demand (i.e. the share of the audience that would use the content).
On #2 - we don't generally like being forced into romantic dialogue either
It's definitely true that the line between 'friendship' and 'romance' needs a clearer divide, this topic has come up a lot and even for non-homosexual romances it'd be nice to know the consequences of what we're saying before we say it. I'm confident that a better system, or at least an improved version of the existing one, is on the cards for ME3. See the icon system in DA2 for an example of how a small change can make things much clearer.
Ryzaki wrote...
LtlMac wrote...
I'm all for it as long as it's done in reason. Homosexuality is a natural thing that occurs in life. Here are my only concerns as it applies to video games:
#1 I don't like it when almost every romancable character (female in my case) winds up being bi-sexual.. Jade Emprire was a good example of how this went poorly. It just didn't feel right for me. Only partly because it would be something diffiucltfor me to deal with in real life....the big part, actually, was that even as a straight guy I saw it as a bit of an insult towards homosexuals and diminished the depth of the characters (oh...i'd sleep with anybody who charmed me....etc..)
I would reccomend two 100% gay crew members and 1 Bi (sex of whatever the fans want). Given the size of the crew and the realities of nature I think that is a pretty signifanct percentage of the crew statistically speaking. Gets everyone a chance at a romance while not going overboard with it. "
As someone who played JE multiple times I don't see where this is coming from. You had 3 LIs in total. Sky, Silk Fox and Dawn Star for Male Pcs. Wheres you got Silk Fox and Sky for Female PCs. You only had 3 LIs. Of course almost every romanceable was going to end up bi. There was only one bi option each.
...And none of the characters acted like that. If anything is dimisioning their depth it's you treating their relationship with the PC like that.
And heck Dawn Star was the only romance LI (of 3 LIs) that was strictly heterosexual (yet for some baffling reason could be persuaded to have a threesome with her own cousin.
ElitePinecone wrote...
LtlMac wrote...
#1
#2 i don't like being 'forced' into homosexual dialogue. What I mean is...in Jad Empite I'm just trying to be nice to whatever that male guys name is (and the Elf in DE Origins)....I'm not trying to hit on the guy. I wish the choices between 'nice' and 'hitting on' were a little more obvious. I forget the exact dialogue....but i just remember one time haveing a convo in and being like "umm...i'm not comfortable with how he is talking to me...but I did sort of ask for it based of what my good old self just unwittingly said...."
On your first point, I don't think anyone is seriously arguing for every squadmember to be suddenly bisexual, that would be very odd. We have no way of knowing what resources Bioware have for romances in ME3 (or even if there *are* romances), but it does involve questions of demand (i.e. the share of the audience that would use the content).
On #2 - we don't generally like being forced into romantic dialogue either
It's definitely true that the line between 'friendship' and 'romance' needs a clearer divide, this topic has come up a lot and even for non-homosexual romances it'd be nice to know the consequences of what we're saying before we say it. I'm confident that a better system, or at least an improved version of the existing one, is on the cards for ME3. See the icon system in DA2 for an example of how a small change can make things much clearer.
earthbornFemShep wrote...
This may have been already mentioned on this thread but I never realized until I just read it on another thread. Apparently in LotSB when Liara asks shepard about her LI, femshep has fully-voiced responses if you are dating Miranda, Jack, or Tali. I thought that was pretty neat.
earthbornFemShep wrote...
Unfortunately, manShep doesn't have fully-voiced lines for Thane, Garrus, or Jacob. Which I thought was a kinda weird omission. But, at least we got some lesbian easter eggs. (lolz, that sounds weird when you put those three words together... oh well.)
Modifié par Greybox_Inception, 04 février 2011 - 03:56 .
If you take a random individual that has given no indication of their sexual orientation, the general rule of the thumb is that they're probably heterosexual, as heterosexuals compose the majority. That's my problem with the argument that while Kaidan never indicates homosexuality, he also never indicates *not* being homosexual. But when one thinks about it, he does indicate through dialogue that he is not gay, in his reaction to femshep pursuing Liara as a LI.SebastianDA wrote...
Kaidan has dialogue supporting a gay romance option. Bioware took it out, in theory due to resources.
Even with Kaidan in the game as it stands now, there is no dialogue indicating that he is not bisexual.
Wouldn't your "Kaidan isn't gay" argument work just as well for Jack? "Jack isn't gay." Why do you think she should be a LI for FemShep then?
Because you think she looks like a stereotypical lesbian in your head? Kaidan looks like a pretty boy to me.
Modifié par Glorious_Leader, 04 février 2011 - 03:55 .
Modifié par SebastianDA, 04 février 2011 - 04:20 .
eh, i woulldn't want a 3some with another guy... "abort... well i'm out of this one guys... my bad...no double meat in pink fest for me... sorry for the misunderstanding", shepard.SebastianDA wrote...
Women joining in threesomes with a couple doesn't make them bisexual.
Just like two guys having a threesome with one woman doesn't automatically make them bisexual either.
In fact I've known many women in college who were not bisexual at all, but acted like lesbians at parties for attention.
We also don't know how "consistent" the relationship was. My psychoanalysis of Jack is that she was messed up from her childhood, had low self-esteem relationship-wise, and engaged in casual sexual encounters for approval or some indication of self-worth.
Now let's look at Kaidan. An attractive 32-year old man with no relationships to speak of other than a non-sexual crush he had as a teenager. He uses the excuses that he's too busy with work and takes relationships very seriously. In ME2 he tells you he went out for drinks with a Dr. with no gender specified.
Sounds like a closet-case to me. A lot of gay people when younger had crushes/feelings for people of the opposite sex. I was unaware of my bisexuality until I was 17. I only was interested in girls beforehand.
Regardless of how ambiguous Jack's behaviour is in ME2, my point is that if the devs intended to suggest she was bisexual, she should be a potential love interest for femshep. If she wasn't intended to be bisexual, then she shouldn't be. Her behaviour indicated a disregard for social norms, as well as being hedonistic. As such, I felt like she would most likely be willing to take sexual pleasure from anyone that offered. Whether the dialogue backs this up is debateable.SebastianDA wrote...
Women joining in threesomes with a couple doesn't make them bisexual.
Just like two guys having a threesome with one woman doesn't automatically make them bisexual either.
In fact I've known many women in college who were not bisexual at all, but acted like lesbians at parties for attention.
We also don't know how "consistent" the relationship was. My psychoanalysis of Jack is that she was messed up from her childhood, had low self-esteem relationship-wise, and engaged in casual sexual encounters for approval or some indication of self-worth.
Now let's look at Kaidan. An attractive 32-year old man with no relationships to speak of other than a non-sexual crush he had as a teenager. He uses the excuses that he's too busy with work and takes relationships very seriously. In ME2 he tells you he went out for drinks with a Dr. with no gender specified.
Sounds like a closet-case to me. A lot of gay people when younger had crushes/feelings for people of the opposite sex. I was unaware of my bisexuality until I was 17. I only was interested in girls beforehand.
Glorious_Leader wrote...
If you take a random individual that has given no indication of their sexual orientation, the general rule of the thumb is that they're probably heterosexual, as heterosexuals compose the majority.
*snip*
earthbornFemShep wrote...
Glorious_Leader wrote...
If you take a random individual that has given no indication of their sexual orientation, the general rule of the thumb is that they're probably heterosexual, as heterosexuals compose the majority.
*snip*
The idea that everyone is defaultly heterosexual is called heterosexism. Long story short: when you assume, it makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'.
We can apply fancy words to it, but it doesn't change the fact the mathematically, the probability of a random person on the street being gay is less than the probability of that person being heterosexual.earthbornFemShep wrote...
Glorious_Leader wrote...
If you take a random individual that has given no indication of their sexual orientation, the general rule of the thumb is that they're probably heterosexual, as heterosexuals compose the majority.
*snip*
The idea that everyone is defaultly heterosexual is called heterosexism. Long story short: when you assume, it makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'.
Modifié par Glorious_Leader, 04 février 2011 - 10:05 .
JrayM16 wrote...
earthbornFemShep wrote...
Glorious_Leader wrote...
If you take a random individual that has given no indication of their sexual orientation, the general rule of the thumb is that they're probably heterosexual, as heterosexuals compose the majority.
*snip*
The idea that everyone is defaultly heterosexual is called heterosexism. Long story short: when you assume, it makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'.
I wouldn't call it heterosexism. He's just stating that given the statistics of how many homosexuals to heterosexuals there are then math would favor a random person be heterosexual if picked out of a pool. It's like if you have a deck of playing cards and pick one reandomly. You're more olikely to have a numbered card than a face card, that's just math. I think that's what Glorious_LEader was trying to say.
No doubt. I wouldn't be willing to bet my life that some random dude is straight, even if the odds are on my side. I might be wrong. But the original argument I was making was a retort to someone suggesting that while Kaidan doesn't make any indication of being gay, his lack of indication of being straight means he's just as likely to be one as he is the other. That simply isn't true. Probability indicates he most likely will be heterosexual. That math doesn't lie.earthbornFemShep wrote...
JrayM16 wrote...
earthbornFemShep wrote...
Glorious_Leader wrote...
If you take a random individual that has given no indication of their sexual orientation, the general rule of the thumb is that they're probably heterosexual, as heterosexuals compose the majority.
*snip*
The idea that everyone is defaultly heterosexual is called heterosexism. Long story short: when you assume, it makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'.
I wouldn't call it heterosexism. He's just stating that given the statistics of how many homosexuals to heterosexuals there are then math would favor a random person be heterosexual if picked out of a pool. It's like if you have a deck of playing cards and pick one reandomly. You're more olikely to have a numbered card than a face card, that's just math. I think that's what Glorious_LEader was trying to say.
Just because it is statistically more likely, doesn't mean that you can't be wrong. Every once in a while, you don't get a number card... you get a king, queen, or Jack.
Glorious_Leader wrote...
No doubt. I wouldn't be willing to bet my life that some random dude is straight, even if the odds are on my side. I might be wrong. But the original argument I was making was a retort to someone suggesting that while Kaidan doesn't make any indication of being gay, his lack of indication of being straight means he's just as likely to be one as he is the other. That simply isn't true. Probability indicates he most likely will be heterosexual. That math doesn't lie.earthbornFemShep wrote...
JrayM16 wrote...
earthbornFemShep wrote...
Glorious_Leader wrote...
If you take a random individual that has given no indication of their sexual orientation, the general rule of the thumb is that they're probably heterosexual, as heterosexuals compose the majority.
*snip*
The idea that everyone is defaultly heterosexual is called heterosexism. Long story short: when you assume, it makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'.
I wouldn't call it heterosexism. He's just stating that given the statistics of how many homosexuals to heterosexuals there are then math would favor a random person be heterosexual if picked out of a pool. It's like if you have a deck of playing cards and pick one reandomly. You're more olikely to have a numbered card than a face card, that's just math. I think that's what Glorious_LEader was trying to say.
Just because it is statistically more likely, doesn't mean that you can't be wrong. Every once in a while, you don't get a number card... you get a king, queen, or Jack.
Modifié par earthbornFemShep, 04 février 2011 - 10:45 .
Cootie wrote...
earthbornFemShep wrote...
Unfortunately, manShep doesn't have fully-voiced lines for Thane, Garrus, or Jacob. Which I thought was a kinda weird omission. But, at least we got some lesbian easter eggs. (lolz, that sounds weird when you put those three words together... oh well.)
Oh.
<_<
earthbornFemShep wrote...
Glorious_Leader wrote...
No doubt. I wouldn't be willing to bet my life that some random dude is straight, even if the odds are on my side. I might be wrong. But the original argument I was making was a retort to someone suggesting that while Kaidan doesn't make any indication of being gay, his lack of indication of being straight means he's just as likely to be one as he is the other. That simply isn't true. Probability indicates he most likely will be heterosexual. That math doesn't lie.earthbornFemShep wrote...
JrayM16 wrote...
earthbornFemShep wrote...
Glorious_Leader wrote...
If you take a random individual that has given no indication of their sexual orientation, the general rule of the thumb is that they're probably heterosexual, as heterosexuals compose the majority.
*snip*
The idea that everyone is defaultly heterosexual is called heterosexism. Long story short: when you assume, it makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'.
I wouldn't call it heterosexism. He's just stating that given the statistics of how many homosexuals to heterosexuals there are then math would favor a random person be heterosexual if picked out of a pool. It's like if you have a deck of playing cards and pick one reandomly. You're more olikely to have a numbered card than a face card, that's just math. I think that's what Glorious_LEader was trying to say.
Just because it is statistically more likely, doesn't mean that you can't be wrong. Every once in a while, you don't get a number card... you get a king, queen, or Jack.
ah, I see we have a wording problem: "he's just a likely". Yeah, you are statistically correct, he isn't "just" as likely. The forumite should have said, "he still could potentially be gay." That statement would leave stats out of it.
fixed.
Edit: If you look at the works of Kinsey, very few % of the population are exclusively homosexual or heterosexual. His studies led to the Kinsey scale. Using his findings, this does change your probabilities a bit. They also made a really weird movie about Kinsey... it was okay.
LtlMac wrote...
#2 i don't like being 'forced' into homosexual dialogue. What I mean is...in Jad Empite I'm just trying to be nice to whatever that male guys name is
Modifié par SebastianDA, 05 février 2011 - 02:23 .
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