9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...
that's the thing.  your Shepard techincaly can be anything you want him or her to be within the confines of available dialogue options of course, my issue is with trying to impose the same idea on non player characters.  I have Shepards with all sorts of personalities and preferences including a Shepard that doesnt fraternize with anyone under his command, ever, even if he feels some sort of atraction.

Except for the fact that he doesn't do anything to contradict it though.

I'm not imposing the same idea. My Shep's not straight. Period. The end.  No question. I said Kaidan could be attracted to a male Shepard under certain circumstances. I don't make decisions for Kaidan. I can't choose if he wants the Rachni to die or not. I can't force him to kill Fist (you can however renegade him). I can't make him have several different backgrounds. I can't design him the way I want, I can't give him a certain specialization.

Hell I can't even control him in battle!

Tali romance was...strange, though I can kinda see the hero worship start sometimes around ME1 travels, growing through Shepard rescuing Tali, not once but twice.  but that's what always made me feel about icky about romancing her, feels too much like taking advantage.  (I have one Shepard going for her, but he's an unscrupulous womanizer and if Tali didn't die in suicide mission, he would have eventualy broken her heart)

I saw none of it. She talked to me like an equal when I was playing ME1. No blushing no "OMG Shepard you're the best!" cheerleading she does in ME2.

If bioware manages to introduce a well written homosexual romance, I can totaly see myself making another Shepard just for the purpose of experiencing it.  I'm still having very hard time seeing how they can pull off beleivable switch with existing LI's though.

I understand that. I felt the same way with the Thane romance being belivevable with the whole memory thing.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2011 - 01:10 .

[JrayM16]

Ryzaki wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Well, that's not what I mean.  Bioware doesn't want to force anyone into a romance of any kind.  They apparently have only straight options for the most part though, and based off comments I've seen they may have intended MShep to be straighjt should the player pursue any romance at all.

I know, it sucks.

But they apologized for not having male gay romances in ME1 by saying there wasn't enough time.

Eh. I chose to think they don't intend Male Shep to be straight just that they were scared for whateve reason of placing gay romances for males in.

Edit: At this point I'm not even angry about the lack of m/m I just wish the f/f titlation would stop. It irritates me. Combine that with highheels, skintight outfits (Jacob and Miranda are blatant offenders) and clevage in space and I'm wondering when the hell did ME turn into every other ridiculous RPG out there.  I'm just irritated with the "ooh hot chicks!" vibe I'm getting. It's juvenille and they place it on characters where it makes little sense. But ah I'll going to give up soon. Just wait until DA2 is out. I should be gone by then.

Well, I didn't know that. 

And even if not, I don't think it was out of fear, nor homophobia.  I don't get either of those vibes, yet the absence is conspicuous in ME2.

And DA2's gonna be good.

[jeweledleah]

Ryzaki wrote...

Except for the fact that he doesn't do anything to contradict it though.

I'm not imposing the same idea. My Shep's not straight. Period. The end.  No question. I said Kaidan could be attracted to a male Shepard under certain circumstances. I don't make decisions for Kaidan. I can't choose if he wants the Rachni to die or not. I can't force him to kill Fist (you can however renegade him). I can't make him have several different backgrounds. I can't design him the way I want, I can't give him a certain specialization.

Hell I can't even control him in battle!

I'm just having serious difficulty imagining what sort of circumstance it could be, that's the thing.  I mean Kaidan was super cautious with romancing femshep as it is, has no problem with celibacy (something he tells you on horizon - not going into detail as its a bit of a spoiler), what could possibly affect him so much that he'd feel atracted to mshep as more then just a friend?

I saw none of it. She talked to me like an equal when I was playing ME1. No blushing no "OMG Shepard you're the best!" cheerleading she does in ME2.

she is always happy to see you when you visit her in engineering, she chatters with you, she confides in you, but that can just be taken as looking up to a supperior officer and a very effective soldier.  in ME2 they added all those references to "what would Shepard do" though making me feel like Tali ended up putting Shepard onto pedestal and making shep into something more in their absence - imagination is an interesting thing.

I understand that. I felt the same way with the Thane romance being belivevable with the whole memory thing.

Thane is one character I could never imagine my Shepard romancing, under no circumstances.  I mean he has a huge fanbase and he's an interesting character but the memory thing and Irykah just... blah.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 08 février 2011 - 01:24 .

[We Tigers]

Ryzaki wrote...
And we're not going to agree at all. Our views on RPGs are too different.

This is probably true.

Of course it doesn't.That doesn't mean your Shep was not a fry cook
(that one could question how was he a fry cook when he enlisted at the
age of 18).

You do a lot of odd jobs in the military.  Especially if you have a passion for a good bloomin' onion.

As for roleplaying being restricted to D&D: So you mean KOTOR, JE,
and Dragon Age are D&D games now? All of BW games are rigidly set.
Hell some of the devs (some of the DA ones anyway) encourage making
your own backstory that doesn't contradict the game.

It's not binary.  D&D is D&D.  Mass Effect is Mass Effect.  Dragon Age is Dragon Age.  Of the ones you've mentioned, I can only speak to Dragon Age, but yes, I do think that's an IP that has a ton more flexibility than what's provided with Mass Effect.  There's so much more choice in resolving any number of situations in DA than in ME.  You can kill half the characters in your party at multiple points in the game, you can align yourself with demons, you can be a huge jerk, etc.  I think it's also pretty telling how many "dialogue" options you have in DA; you can do a ton of role-playing in that game without even having to go outside what's there.  You've got dozens of conversations where you have 5 or 6 possible responses to a single prompt, and they can range from "Let's work this out" to "I'm doing this because I want the child to live" to "I'm doing this because I want your power" to "[Attack them]."

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...
I'm just having serious difficulty imagining what sort of circumstance it could be, that's the thing.  I mean Kaidan was super cautious with romancing femshep as it is, what could possibly affect him so much that he'd feel atracted to mshep as more then just a friend?

I didn't see any super caution with Kaidan in the romance. He was a little reluctant yeah but as soon as FemShep started flirting with him he started flirting back. Also: "Losing you was like losing a limb?" Really? Really? The whole convo with Dude Shep on Horizon struck me as one giant "WHY'D YOU LEAVE ME!?! "

Made me lol so hard my first playthrough. Then of course there's the "I miss him. I wish we could've spent more time together." morose expression on Shep's face as he talks to Kelly after Horizon. The tone is just...odd for two friends. Not saying its automatically not friendshippy but it's just suggestive.

she is always happy to see you when you visit her in engineering, she chatters with you, she confides in you, but that can just be taken as looking up to a supperior officer and a very effective soldier.  in ME2 they added all those references to "what would Shepard do" though making me feel like Tali ended up putting Shepard onto pedestal and making shep into something more in their absence - imagination is an interesting thing.

Everyone is happy to see you in ME1 unless you're playing renedouche. To me confiding in you was because she saw you as a very competent leader something that she had been expected to be. It was admiration but of a rather different kind.

Thane is one character I could never imagine my Shepard romancing, under no circumstances.  I mean he has a huge fanbase and he's an interesting character but the memory thing and Irykah just... blah.

Lulz.I feel the pain. The memory thing was kin of where I went.." Yeah...no." but his romace is very sweet and believable (to me anyways).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2011 - 01:30 .

[Ryzaki]

We Tigers wrote...
You do a lot of odd jobs in the military.  Especially if you have a passion for a good bloomin' onion.

In that case there's no metagaming. As long as it doesn't conflict with anything we directly know already it's fine.

It's not binary.  D&D is D&D.  Mass Effect is Mass Effect.  Dragon Age is Dragon Age.  Of the ones you've mentioned, I can only speak to Dragon Age, but yes, I do think that's an IP that has a ton more flexibility than what's provided with Mass Effect.  There's so much more choice in resolving any number of situations in DA than in ME.  You can kill half the characters in your party at multiple points in the game, you can align yourself with demons, you can be a huge jerk, etc.  I think it's also pretty telling how many "dialogue" options you have in DA; you can do a ton of role-playing in that game without even having to go outside what's there.  You've got dozens of conversations where you have 5 or 6 possible responses to a single prompt, and they can range from "Let's work this out" to "I'm doing this because I want the child to live" to "I'm doing this because I want your power" to "[Attack them]."

Right I consider all of those roleplaying games. Sure you have more flexibility in D&D but I'm sure there's limits in D&D like everything else. ME's limits just appen to be a lot smaller. (Kind of like Persona games). 

And this is where our differences between what constitutes an RPG makes it useless to continue unless we want to engage in walls of text?

I do have about a month until DA2 comes out.

Why can't March hurry up? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2011 - 01:32 .

[We Tigers]

You're telling me. Just be thankful February has only 28 days. I need my fix.

[Cootie]

Oh, gods, not the Wall of Text! That hurts my eyes way more than all that 3D-malarky! Have mercy!

In any case, I find the "I don't think the developers envisioned their beloved Shepard to be homosexual" very... unlikely. And metagaming? It's forbidden to interpret and read between the lines?
Sorry for being a nonconformist here, but my FemShep is clearly gay. So unless the Bioware definition of homosexuality is a one-way street in a very shoddy makeshift disguise, I have no idea where the whole "nowhere in the game does Shepard specify being gay"-stuff is coming from.
And don't give me the Asari excuse, we have refuted that claim to infinity and beyond.
Shepard can be homosexual. The developers did consider it. We just want them to consider it more.

Edit: I warned you about spelling errors, man! I told you, dog!
Yet they keep happening.

Modifié par Cootie, 08 février 2011 - 01:41 .

[London]

[/quote]
There's no option for male Shepard to express any homosexual interest in a character in either of the first two Mass Effect games.  [/quote]


If you SetGendered your Shepard in ME1, and romanced Kaidan, this continues into ME2 without any modding of ME2.  Even after SetGender, MaleShep has VOICED DIALOGUE still accessible in the game that makes no sense outside of a gay relationship with Kaidan.

I'd be happy if they continued this relationship into ME3, also with no modding, as you didn't have to do any modding in ME2 to get Male Shepard to tell Kelly that "Kaidan was special", to have the hug on Horizon, and romance dialogue and the e-mail.

I don't expect them to ever re-release Mass Effect one to put the gay romance back in; but I could see them just rolling with those who SetGendered around the limitation and letting the gay romance continue without modding like they did for ME2.


Finally, I still think Kaidan's character was written like a closet case, for reasons I wrote earlier.  He has all the classic signs/excuses that closeted gay men still use today.

[jeweledleah]

SebastianDA wrote...

There's no option for male Shepard to express any homosexual interest in a character in either of the first two Mass Effect games.


If you SetGendered your Shepard in ME1, and romanced Kaidan, this continues into ME2 without any modding of ME2.  Even after SetGender, MaleShep has VOICED DIALOGUE still accessible in the game that makes no sense outside of a gay relationship with Kaidan.

I'd be happy if they continued this relationship into ME3, also with no modding, as you didn't have to do any modding in ME2 to get Male Shepard to tell Kelly that "Kaidan was special", to have the hug on Horizon, and romance dialogue and the e-mail.

I don't expect them to ever re-release Mass Effect one to put the gay romance back in; but I could see them just rolling with those who SetGendered around the limitation and letting the gay romance continue without modding like they did for ME2.


Finally, I still think Kaidan's character was written like a closet case, for reasons I wrote earlier.  He has all the classic signs/excuses that closeted gay men still use today.

you do realize that a lot of dialog is identical between male shep and femshep right?  not only that, its identical whether you romanced someone in ME1 or not?  not to mention secondary characters often refer to Shepard as Shepard even if their are talking about shep in third person becasue its much much cheaper to record dialogue once rather then twice.  same for animantions (poor Kaidan and that damn phoenix armor, at least they gave him his own armor for horizon :/)

I'd have no problem with people modding their games to be whatever they are, but just don't think that developers are doing things the most expedient way in order to make it eaiser for you to mod, if they did, we'd have console in ME2 like we did in ME1.

I suspect that for ME3 that's apparently using yet another different engine, mods would have to scramble to adopt and quite possibly you might have to change set gender several times to get your import to work in ME3 

lastly - and I'm wondeirng abotu this belief I really do, why do you all think that Kaidan is written as closet gay?  is it the fact that he's conciderate, throughtful and cautious due to regulations?  straight men cannot be all those things apparently?

Modifié par jeweledleah, 08 février 2011 - 03:53 .

[London]

I never played FemShep and don't plan on it, so no I was unaware that the dialogue is the same for Kaidan regardless of whether he's looking at MaleShep or FemShep, and I did not know that I guess MaleShep says the same thing to Ashley as he does to Kaidan on Horizon for the romance scenerio.



My point is, I felt as though if you SetGendered ME1, ME2 kind of just rolled with it. I didn't have to sit and listen to everyone call my MaleShep a "she" or "her" in ME2, nor is my romance ruined; I was fully male and the gay romance followed with it.



In ME2, my MaleShep with gay Kaidan romance did not have any new male romance options; only female. But they didn't disallow the gay Kaidan romance and change it into Friendship only just because I was Male in ME2.

[London]

Just saw you edited your post to add the final part.



Why I think Kaidan is a closet case?



Um, how about being 32 and the only person he has to talk about is some girl he claims to have had a non-sexual crush on as a teenager at brain camp? I only had crushes on girls until I was 17, and also thought they were "beautiful" blah blah blah.



Then he goes on to say that he just takes sex very seriously. Great (and kind of lame) excuse to still be a virgin or to come across as relatively asexual, no significant relationship to speak of whatsoever, no children.



What's next? He's just too busy working? Another great excuse.



He also has the most stylized hair in the ME galaxy, definitely the most gay hairstyle I've seen. Add in being soft-spoken, and I can assure you if Kaidan came out in ME-3 there would be more than one woman on the ship who would say "I told you so."

[jeweledleah]

you were a modded male though and in a love scene you magically changed into a woman, with Kaidan referring to you as a woman.

Bioware doesn't disallow modding, true, but it doesn't support it either.

lastly "puts flame retardant suit on" talking to my husband just now, and he mentions couple of his coworkers. he says that he has to be extremely careful about how he speaks to those guys because you'd just be polite and they suddenly think you're coming on to them. even though hubby is (obviously) married and people are very aware of my existence, many have met me when I came by a few times at the end of his shift. being polite and friendly and considerate = / = gay, or even bi. "flame retardant suit off"

granted with many homosexuals you cannot tell what their sexual preference is, they act just like anyone else. but if that's the criteria for a closeted gay, then I don't know what to tell you, really.

edited to add.  he mentions Rhana as part of the story and only if you ask him about friends he might have had in Baat.

straight men are all ****s in your opinion?  just becasue someone doesn't sleep around with everything that moves doesn't make them gay.  he avoids relationship on a ship for the same reason he's cautious with femshep - regulations.  shows interest in Liara btw, if you ask him as non modded maleshep.

he's hair is weird, but part of it might be his heritage  (we don't exactly know his ethnic origins, but I know that my uncle for isntance has the sort of hair that unless cropped really short can litteraly be styled ala hedge bushes - no gel required)

edited yet again - well groomed and caring about appearance doesn't denote sexual orientation.  I've also met gay guys who look like Larry the Cable guy, doesn't change their sexual preferences.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 08 février 2011 - 04:12 .

[London]

I know it was modded in ME1, but my point was non-modded in ME2 it was fine.



Also none of my points are about Kaidan being polite, friendly and considerate. Look at my reasons above.



Maybe you haven't met any gay men who use all of the excuses Kaidan uses to show why he's still single and asexual at his age.

[MisterDyslexo]

SebastianDA wrote...

Maybe you haven't met any gay men who use all of the excuses Kaidan uses to show why he's still single and asexual at his age.

*points at self*

If it means anything, I *flameshield up*, as a closet-case *shield down* do a lot of things Kaidan does and act like that often as well. Its kinda just forced itself its way subconsciously into the way I act. I don't know if that helps with either of you, but there you go.

And Kaidan's a canuck, it seems. His father lives in Vancouver.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 08 février 2011 - 04:13 .

[London]

Jeweled that's not what Im saying at all. But try Googling "30's male single unmarried no children" and a very common perception is that a guy like that is gay.



Add in a supposed disinterest in sex, "being a private person", metrosexual looks, and yeah it would not be shocking if this character was gay.



Also if we are talking cannon, Liara is not male or female. Remember, FemShep who dates Liara in Mass Effect land is not gay, so obviously being interested in her by this logic doesn't make Kaidan straight either. Yes I think that's rubbish, but if BioWare wants us to believe that is the case, then Liara doesn't do anything for anyone' cause to preclude him from being bisexual.

[jeweledleah]

canuck is not an ethnic origin. his last name is ukranian, his first name is japanese, but he looks like he has some hindu heritage.

I've met straight men who act like Kaidan. seriously, I resent the implication that all straight men MUST sleep around like demented rabbits and will have sex indiscriminately with anything willing, kiss and tell constantly, and jump from significant relationship to significant relationship even if they are career military and genuinely might not have any time for anything serious.

Rhana is mentioned as part of his story about BAAT. she's actually an incredibly significant part of that story.

edited to add - perception doesn't make it the truth, sorry.  perception is wistful thinking.

Kaidna is not disinterested in sex - he's disinterested in casual sex, there's a difference

Modifié par jeweledleah, 08 février 2011 - 04:22 .

[vader da slayer]

just make it a toggle option that way those that don't want that possiblity to happen (by accident) it can't happen and they maintain the story they want while others who want to have that can have their story play out the way they want to. no need to force one way or another onto everyone.

[London]

No one is saying all straight men are ****s.

But 32 and no relationship EVER - yes people are going to ask if you are gay and it's totally justified.

I don't know ANY straight men who act like Kaidan. I know plenty of closeted gay men who do, though.

Also again, how old was Kaidan in that story?  He's a teenager.  Give me a break.  You don't have any other women to talk about in 15 years?

Modifié par SebastianDA, 08 février 2011 - 04:22 .

[London]

Thanks Jeweled, you defend Kaidan with the same excuse a lot of gay men use for not being in relationships: Too busy with work, no time for relationships.



Odd that most military guys I know who are older than 18-22 are married with children. Even with significant time stationed abroad people make it work.

[jeweledleah]

who says he didn't have a relationship? we know nothing about how he spend the years between BAAT and his enlistment. also, private person? why would he talk about past relationships to his superior officer unless it had any sort of reference to something other then bragging.

what happened with Rhana (and I'm not just talking about Rhana) had a lot to do why Kaidan disappeared and why he ended up enlisting anyways, not to mention she's relevant to why he is the kind of biotic that he is. Asari are feminine in appearance. its what makes them successful strippers for bars catering to humans among other things.

Kaidan is a special case.  he's one of the first biotics, he's feared by a lot of people, we still don't know exactly how eezo exposure affects reproductive functions, though we do know that majority of the exposed end up with brain damage, cancer etc - yeah that's good motivation to have kids right there.

I know men who have kids when they are barely 20.  I know men who never have kids.  i know men who marry early.  I know men who never marry.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 08 février 2011 - 04:29 .

[MisterDyslexo]

vader da slayer wrote...

just make it a toggle option that way those that don't want that possiblity to happen (by accident) it can't happen and they maintain the story they want while others who want to have that can have their story play out the way they want to. no need to force one way or another onto everyone.

That'll never happen, because quite frankly it seems to most, on both sides of the argument, very childish, and degrading, because
1. Its obviously insulting to gays
2. Its calling everybody else an idiot who can tell what a flirt is.

Hell, if you accidently start a romance, I usually consider it good practice for real life. Gotta know when you're sending the wrong messages by accident, or right messages on puropse.

Most people are just up for the whole "Make flirtation as obvious as possible, and don't let them hit on you option", and I gotta say I agree with that. Solves problems for everybody. You honestly can't tell me something like that wouldn't have been useful at least once when playing either of the Mass effects, or for that matter any other Bioware game.

[London]

I've had girls try to "turn me straight" and they know very well I am gay. Even outside of the gay/straight issue, most people have had to deal with being hit on by someone they are not interested in.

I found it annoying that as soon as Liara got on your ship in ME-1 you had to turn her advances down because she immediatley wanted to date you. Same with Jack in ME2 and Tali, too. Just be someone nice to someone and they want to date you and then you are in the uncomfortable position of having to turn them down.

I wouldn't mind a toggle to keep all the ladies off my Male-Shep.  But then again being to toggle-away someone's feelings isn't very realistic.

The game is rated M.  Hopefully people can be mature enough to deal with these issues.

Modifié par SebastianDA, 08 février 2011 - 04:35 .

[jeweledleah]

SebastianDA wrote...

I've had girls try to "turn me straight" and they know very well I am gay. Even outside of the gay/straight issue, most people have had to deal with being hit on by someone they are not interested in.

I found it annoying that as soon as Liara got on your ship in ME-1 you had to turn her advances down because she immediatley wanted to date you. Same with Jack in ME2 and Tali, too. Just be someone nice to someone and they want to date you and then you are in the uncomfortable position of having to turn them down.

I wouldn't mind a toggle to keep all the ladies off my Male-Shep.

yeah it works the same way with gay people trying to turn straight people to their "camp" so to speak and its just as annoying and all you need to do is just say no.  you can do that in game you know, tell them you're not interested in them in that way.  there are plenty of options to keep it friendly.  luckily in game, one firm no is usualy enough (unlike in real life sometimes)

Liara is interested in Shepard, any Shepard (asari are not picky about the gender or species of their partners, btw) and a lot of it has to do with Shep's exposure to prothean technology.  remember, prothean expert?

Modifié par jeweledleah, 08 février 2011 - 04:38 .

[London]

Jeweled it comes down to this:

You don't believe there is any possibility that Kaidan can be bisexual and you think there is an excuse that justifies any argument to the contrary.

I think Kaidan was originally written as bisexual due to the original script, and the overt option to gay-Romance Kaidan in the ME game was edited out for political reasons (but can still be accessed with simple modding). I think a lot of Kaidan's script and personality traits support Kaidan's originally-intended bisexuality, just like I think Ashley was written in a manner where my jaw would not drop agape if she said she was bisexual (as she was originally intended also).

Some women are blind to potential signs of ******/bisexuality. Other women are inherently more suspicious.  And yes everyone is an individual, but this doesn't mean it's so easy to write off.

If I was talking to my female friends about a guy with Kaidan's history and character traits, most of them would immediately ask if he's gay, or at the very least find someone like Kaidan to be very odd.

Modifié par SebastianDA, 08 février 2011 - 04:41 .