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[Space Kookie]

We Tigers wrote...

Space Kookie wrote...

Reading the about 10 last pages of this thread I get the feeling that it is constantly repeating itself.
The homophobes among this community refuse to accept that there should be homosexuality in a game like Mass Effect, that is just all about choices. Somehow, I don't know what goes on in a head of a homophobe =P) they feel bothered by the thought that in a game with the steriotypical straight man as a hero suddently "becomes" gay. I talked to a few friends and they kinda all said that Shepard couldn't be gay because he's tough, which is total BS imo!

I think you mischaracterize.  As somebody just dropping into the thread, I see that most of the opposition to "make Kaidan bisexual" has to do with the fact that in game so far, he's straight.  Unused audio or Jade Empire or "he seems like he could be bisexual" or whatever don't change the fact that, in the game, he's a straight male love interest for a female Shepard.  Also, I'm very doubtful that Kaidan/Ash will be playable squad members--or even NPCs that Shepard interacts with very much--so I don't think a male Shepard/Kaidan romance could really be shoehorned in effectively at this point.

I wouldn't really care about new gay male romance options in ME3 if I thought they could be executed well, but I feel that Bioware's already written that out as a possibility by having male Shepard clearly not be gay throughout the first two games.  You can say "my Shepard is gay and doesn't do any romances," but since the games really haven't been designed with that in mind so far, it might have the feel of a retcon in ME3.  If all you want is a male romance for male Shepard, fine, you might get it, but I can't see it being well-executed when considering the Shepard the games have presented so far. 

I agree with you. A sudden change in sexuality would be very akward, especially if you had male/ female romances with your crew member in the first 2 games and suddently had gay options as well. So it should be this way: If Shepard has ever had a straight relationship in the previous gamesaves, you don't get gay romance options. Period.
But think about it: Choices you didn't choose never happened. So... I didn't choose to leave the Collector Base in the end of ME2 intact, means it isn't there in ME3. I could be complaining about the renegade choice I had back then to leave it intact, but I wont. My shepard's 100% paragon. period.
So if you have never had  a Straight relationship with anyone before (e.g. my Shepard  ), THEN he could be gay. He could be bisexual. Honestly, it's very hard to tell if someone's gay if they aren't acting steriotypicly.
My advice is: Bioware should just put in a very simple parameter: "Had straight relationship=true/false" or however it is coded, probably in C++ and I don't know **** about that XD But IF you already had a straight relationship, you won't get gay options. because no straight man I know would try and hit on me, know what I mean?  As far as the characters go, well 1. maybe they add new Characters. 2. Maybe it is plausible to make some characters gay/ bisexual. I mean, I don't want to bring up Kaiden again, but if he's bisexual and more interested in women, that would be kinda logical. You'd have to "convince" him as male shepard to romance you, etc.

I hope you know what I mean :]

[Cootie]

Space Kookie wrote...

I agree with you. A sudden change in sexuality would be very akward, especially if you had male/ female romances with your crew member in the first 2 games and suddently had gay options as well. So it should be this way: If Shepard has ever had a straight relationship in the previous gamesaves, you don't get gay romance options. Period.
But think about it: Choices you didn't choose never happened. So... I didn't choose to leave the Collector Base in the end of ME2 intact, means it isn't there in ME3. I could be complaining about the renegade choice I had back then to leave it intact, but I wont. My shepard's 100% paragon. period.
So if you have never had  a Straight relationship with anyone before (e.g. my Shepard  ), THEN he could be gay. He could be bisexual. Honestly, it's very hard to tell if someone's gay if they aren't acting steriotypicly.
My advice is: Bioware should just put in a very simple parameter: "Had straight relationship=true/false" or however it is coded, probably in C++ and I don't know **** about that XD But IF you already had a straight relationship, you won't get gay options. because no straight man I know would try and hit on me, know what I mean?  As far as the characters go, well 1. maybe they add new Characters. 2. Maybe it is plausible to make some characters gay/ bisexual. I mean, I don't want to bring up Kaiden again, but if he's bisexual and more interested in women, that would be kinda logical. You'd have to "convince" him as male shepard to romance you, etc.

I hope you know what I mean :]

Ooooooooor you could just write the romances so that Shepard's always the one to initiate them, instead of having them thrown at you like in the previous games.

[Rasputin]

Firstly, I support any and all type of romances for all people. Everyone should get some lovin.

Second, you can't have a male/female (or vice-versa) relationship lock out the possibility of a bi or gay relationship because people change.

Thirdly, live and let live people. As long as someone is not hurting someone else, they should be able to do what they want - and that includes heroes in video games =-).

I refer you to this website for the weightier considerations of life, liberty and the persuit of happiness (if you wish to quiz yourself):

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz

p.s. Cootie - good call.  I support your solution =-)

Modifié par Rasputin, 09 février 2011 - 03:01 .

[ElitePinecone]

Cootie wrote...

Space Kookie wrote...
snip
I hope you know what I mean :]

Ooooooooor you could just write the romances so that Shepard's always the one to initiate them, instead of having them thrown at you like in the previous games.

Space Kookie, you have a good point there, but I think it's pretty well handled by Cootie's suggestion.

If Shepard initiates the romance then the problem of potential love interests 'realising s/he's gay' is solved. It's not inconsistent if written well, and even more so if Shepard hasn't romanced anyone in previous games. That being said, 'bisexual Shepard' isn't inconsistent when we're all roleplaying individual characters. 

It also helps with people that may find these sorts of romances confronting. The player actively has to initiate the process and get the ball rolling, so to speak, and no content is 'thrown' at the player.

I honestly wish this was done all the time, having to just about beat Miranda off my Shep with a stick was hardly fun, or realistic. 

[SilentK]

/ de-lurk



Hmmm.... my two cents.... I think I would prefer having a new char that's only romanceable for F/F or M/M with the new ME3 and let the romances that are in game continue as before. No matter how adorable Tali would be to romance for my fem-shep. But that is no biggie for me =) as long as you guys get some love too. It wouldn't be the first LI that my Shepard chooses but that doesn't mean that I won't enjoy seeing how it plays out later on when I'm trying new paths in the game. Seeing more than one way for the game to play out is one of the reasons why I replay DA:O and ME. Guess we'll just have to see how Bioware chooses to implement it. Good luck =)



/exit thread

[catabuca]

FataliTensei wrote...

I don't get why people have a hard time wrapping their minds around the whole bisexual orientation. My current boyfriend is bi but he has been with girls before, doesn't mean he wasn't interested in men during those times or that he's still not attracted to women even though he's with me now. It's a really simple concept...why do people have such issues with it?

Exactly.

I think we have to realise that there is a huge gender and sexuality bias in society (as well as a racial one). What I mean is that, unless told otherwise, we in the west tend to assume that a character is white and straight, simply because that is what has been presented over time as the 'norm'. Now, we are all intelligent enough to recognise that there really is no such thing as normal, that normal is a construction, created by those with a stake in maintaining the status quo, and perpetuated by those with something to lose. Over time these norms get challenged, and society changes somewhat. But if you read a book with a male main character, most white, straight readers will likely just assume that character is white and straight, unless it is explicitly stated otherwise.

And so, it is a very easy assumption, and not necessarily a wrong one either, to assume Kaidan is straight on the basis of him a) stating he once loved Rahna, not explicitly stating he is bi, and c) because we will often assume a person is straight because that's how we've been conditioned. There is nothing wrong with coming to this conclusion. Where the problem lies, however, is then asserting that because you came to that conclusion it is the ONLY possible conclusion to draw and anyone who believes otherwise is flat out wrong.

While it is perfectly reasonable for people to believe Kaidan is straight (for whatever reason), the lack of any outright declaration of sexual preference (because his past love for Rahna is not an all-inclusive statement of sexual preference, as per my previous post) means that I also find it perfectly reasonable for people to believe he could be bi.

It doesn't hurt my gaming experience when some people say that there is no way they can imagine Kaidan as bi. That's fine, I'm good with that. I'm constantly scratching my head over why it would seemingly hurt their gaming experience for me or others to say that we believe he is bi though, and, indeed, as Fatali said, why the concept of bi people being able to have relationships with both men and women at different times in their life is such a complex one to grasp.

[Space Kookie]

Cootie wrote...

Space Kookie wrote...


I hope you know what I mean :]

Ooooooooor you could just write the romances so that Shepard's always the one to initiate them, instead of having them thrown at you like in the previous games.

Meh, WAY too easy XD Well actually, that kinda makes sense =P
Does anybody know when ME3 is due to be released? I wonder if they actually put homosexuality in the game^^ maybe hack into their extranet with my Omnitool and find out

Modifié par Space Kookie, 09 février 2011 - 03:47 .

[catabuca]

Space Kookie wrote...

Meh, WAY too easy XD Well actually, that kinda makes sense =P
Does anybody know when ME3 is due to be released? I wonder if they actually put homosexuality in the game^^ maybe hack into their extranet with my Omnitool and find out

It's supposed to be coming out in November.

At this point, I think it's very unlikely there will be any m/m relationship options in ME3. There will likely still be Liara for femSheps, of course (and it's this inequality that forms the basis of my anger about the lack of m/m options). While there has been such a strong wave of feeling about this issue, and while BW don't generally shy away from the issue, the ME franchise has been something of a departure from their usual stance. There are plenty of theories, of course, and I favour the one that suggests that the change in direction towards a military space-shooter action/rpg hybrid was what made them less inclined to include it in this game series (because of the new type of audience they were aiming for).

Of course, that doesn't mean we should be defeatist and merely sit down and say 'oh poo, nevermind'. I believe we should continue to make it clear we support s/s options for both male and female Shepards, because it at least sends the message that we have no problem with there being gays in space, with marines being gay, with badass men who love other badass men. Perhaps that way, over time, they will realise having that option in this sort of game wouldn't be that bad a thing afterall.

[Canis_Major]

I totally support the idea of homosexual relationships within the game. I agree with the 1st comment: the only thing written in stone is that Shepard is a Spectre. Period. If you can make him "paragon" or "renegade", biotic or soldier, why not make him lesbian or whatever? I see no serious reason whatsoever to avoid it, more specially if in other Bioware games it is possible. I understand most players see Shepard in a personal way. For me, for example, its a heterosexual male, 50% paragon 50% renegade, Infiltrator. But it could be different.



And come on, there are two possible lesbian encounters, why not gay?

[catabuca]

Canis_Major wrote...

I totally support the idea of homosexual relationships within the game. I agree with the 1st comment: the only thing written in stone is that Shepard is a Spectre. Period. If you can make him "paragon" or "renegade", biotic or soldier, why not make him lesbian or whatever? I see no serious reason whatsoever to avoid it, more specially if in other Bioware games it is possible. I understand most players see Shepard in a personal way. For me, for example, its a heterosexual male, 50% paragon 50% renegade, Infiltrator. But it could be different.

And come on, there are two possible lesbian encounters, why not gay?

Absolutely. Yay for more support

(although, I have to say, although I'm pretty on the ball when it comes to aspects of genderfluidity, manShep being a lesbian is probably something not a lot of people have envisaged )

[Canis_Major]

I guess m/m or f/f relationships should not be so strange in a game where u can flirt with snakelike or squidlike people ^^.

[Space Kookie]

catabuca wrote...

Space Kookie wrote...

Meh, WAY too easy XD Well actually, that kinda makes sense =P
Does anybody know when ME3 is due to be released? I wonder if they actually put homosexuality in the game^^ maybe hack into their extranet with my Omnitool and find out

 'oh poo, nevermind'

JEEZE, that made my day XD

Actually. Of cause I'd like to see M/M options in ME3. But if they don't do it, I won't turn my back in Bioware or something. After all, reality is still better than a video game. And if they don't allow me to date Garrus with my Male Shepard, well I'll just ask my bf XD
Still, I'd love to see them popping out the news like: TADAAAA, holding it back we have for really long time, u yea xD
ME3 will still be the best video game ever. Right before ME2 and that right before ME1 =P

Modifié par Space Kookie, 09 février 2011 - 07:25 .

[Cootie]

Even though it's proclaimed the best, it's like comparing zero to one. Sure, it's the best, but it could still be awesomer. So there.

That said, it's all just my opinion. The Mass Effect games are the only ones I've managed to finish in, like, years.

[FataliTensei]

catabuca wrote...

Space Kookie wrote...

Meh, WAY too easy XD Well actually, that kinda makes sense =P
Does anybody know when ME3 is due to be released? I wonder if they actually put homosexuality in the game^^ maybe hack into their extranet with my Omnitool and find out

It's supposed to be coming out in November.

At this point, I think it's very unlikely there will be any m/m relationship options in ME3. There will likely still be Liara for femSheps, of course (and it's this inequality that forms the basis of my anger about the lack of m/m options). While there has been such a strong wave of feeling about this issue, and while BW don't generally shy away from the issue, the ME franchise has been something of a departure from their usual stance. There are plenty of theories, of course, and I favour the one that suggests that the change in direction towards a military space-shooter action/rpg hybrid was what made them less inclined to include it in this game series (because of the new type of audience they were aiming for).

Of course, that doesn't mean we should be defeatist and merely sit down and say 'oh poo, nevermind'. I believe we should continue to make it clear we support s/s options for both male and female Shepards, because it at least sends the message that we have no problem with there being gays in space, with marines being gay, with badass men who love other badass men. Perhaps that way, over time, they will realise having that option in this sort of game wouldn't be that bad a thing afterall.

Oh i agree wholeheartedly with that, the racial bias is a very big issue as well as the sexual orientation bias. Very,  very rarely do we see a videogame lead, or even a movie or book lead character who is not White, Male and Straight. It seems that when a product is marketed to the general population SWM(Straight, White, Male) is the standard, I can only pick out a handful of times where this does not hold true for a product marketed to a general audience. Leads of other races, relatively rare, female leads, somewhat less rare now but still nowhere near as big as male leads, gay leads.....haha good one the MPAA is so harsh on anything gay you'll get one rating higher than you deserve just for having it in there(MPAA is made up of a bunch of \\christian, conservative fascists and actually has members of the clergy on their appeals board). Unless a product is marketed to a specific race, gender or sexual orientation it will 90% of the time have a SWM lead, it may have other characters there of those races, genders, sexual orientations, etc. but they are secondary characters for the most part.

It also doesn't help that in many cases minority leads are marketed in ways that reinforce negative sterotypes about the groups they represent. All blacks are thugs, all women are helpless, all gays are ****s, etc. When you really stop and look at the entertainment industry as a whole you see that in some ways america has come a long ways, but in alot of ways we really haven't come that far and we have a long way to go.

I hope I didn't get too off topic with this and I hope my point comes across right in this:blush:

Modifié par FataliTensei, 10 février 2011 - 03:41 .

[catabuca]

I think you make an excellent point, Fatali

[Illeuad]

catabuca wrote...

Illeuad wrote...

I'm still hoping in vain that Kaidan will come back and be open to romance from either character. Perhaps that two years separation from M!Shep will break through that bromance barrier! XD

I'm with you on that

As far as I am concerned, and as has been discussed numerous times in this thread and elsewhere, just because someone says they fell in love with a girl when they were young does not mean the same as saying 'I fell in love with Rahna and I don't like men'. 

Actually it's funny you bring that up, because the M/M romance option in Jade Empire, Sky, was previously happily married (to a woman, *spoiler* who was unfortunately killed */spoiler*). It all comes down the writing, anything is possible. 

Modifié par Illeuad, 10 février 2011 - 01:39 .

[catabuca]

Illeuad wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Illeuad wrote...

I'm still hoping in vain that Kaidan will come back and be open to romance from either character. Perhaps that two years separation from M!Shep will break through that bromance barrier! XD

I'm with you on that

As far as I am concerned, and as has been discussed numerous times in this thread and elsewhere, just because someone says they fell in love with a girl when they were young does not mean the same as saying 'I fell in love with Rahna and I don't like men'. 

Actually it's funny you bring that up, because the M/M romance option in Jade Empire, Sky, was previously happily married (to a woman, *spoiler* who was unfortunately killed */spoiler*). It all comes down the writing, anything is possible. 

Exactly. And how many storylines in tv and film feature a guy who has only ever dated women before but comes out when he finds Mr Right? And what's more, I'm positive 'coming out' won't be the issue it is today in the 22nd century, so it needn't even be handled with the kind of analysis and soul-searching we get in many dramas these days, it can just be. But it wouldn't even necessarily be a case of Kaidan coming out - he could have always been out but just not had occasion to talk about any of his boyfriends to Shep. It's not like we get a rosta of all of Ash's past one night stands and long term boyfriends (or girlfriends) ... why would we expect to hear that from Kaidan?

Meh, anyway, I'm not holding out on him being a s/s LI in ME3, nor am I demanding he be (to 'demand' anything is ridiculous). This is all just 1) wishful thinking; and 2) pointing out the pointlessness of so many of the arguments that say 'there is NO WAY Kaidan could be considered gay in any way shape or form because he loved Rahna and is therefore 100% straight, for all time, forever, and ya boo sucks."

[catabuca]

And while I'm on the subject, here, have a link to some awesome artwork I commissioned to go with a chapter I'm writing of Sheploo and Kaidan's reunion on Omega.

Potentially NSFW (Kaidan butt, oh my!).

[Space Kookie]

catabuca wrote...

And while I'm on the subject, here, have a link to some awesome artwork I commissioned to go with a chapter I'm writing of Sheploo and Kaidan's reunion on Omega.
Potentially NSFW (Kaidan butt, oh my!).

I just ****ed into my N7 suit =O
This is hot =3 I'd love to see that in game
Thanks for sharing =P
And yes I like smilies that are based on the equals sign XD

[catabuca]

Space Kookie wrote...

catabuca wrote...

And while I'm on the subject, here, have a link to some awesome artwork I commissioned to go with a chapter I'm writing of Sheploo and Kaidan's reunion on Omega.
Potentially NSFW (Kaidan butt, oh my!).

I just ****ed into my N7 suit =O
This is hot =3 I'd love to see that in game
Thanks for sharing =P
And yes I like smilies that are based on the equals sign XD

I'll be in my bunk ...

[thatbwoyblu]

In game collapsible helmets FTW.I actually never thought of that good one.

[hotdogbsg]

Personally I think homsexual relationships in the next game is a fine idea but I'd introduce a new character/characters to facilitate that. To me it would seem forced that Kaiden, Ashley, Garrus or Tali would turn gay as there doesn't seem to be any basis for them doing so.

[Cootie]

hotdogbsg wrote...

Personally I think homsexual relationships in the next game is a fine idea but I'd introduce a new character/characters to facilitate that. To me it would seem forced that Kaiden, Ashley, Garrus or Tali would turn gay as there doesn't seem to be any basis for them doing so.

What kind of obscure Disney film ever told you that love was logical?

[hotdogbsg]

Cootie wrote...

hotdogbsg wrote...

Personally I think homsexual relationships in the next game is a fine idea but I'd introduce a new character/characters to facilitate that. To me it would seem forced that Kaiden, Ashley, Garrus or Tali would turn gay as there doesn't seem to be any basis for them doing so.

What kind of obscure Disney film ever told you that love was logical?

It's just a personal opinion about the characters.  For me it seems like it would be quite a sudden change . Is there anywhere in the first two games that may give a hint that Kaiden, for example, might be gay?

[MisterDyslexo]

hotdogbsg wrote...

Cootie wrote...

hotdogbsg wrote...

Personally I think homsexual relationships in the next game is a fine idea but I'd introduce a new character/characters to facilitate that. To me it would seem forced that Kaiden, Ashley, Garrus or Tali would turn gay as there doesn't seem to be any basis for them doing so.

What kind of obscure Disney film ever told you that love was logical?

It's just a personal opinion about the characters.  For me it seems like it would be quite a sudden change . Is there anywhere in the first two games that may give a hint that Kaiden, for example, might be gay?

Read the past 15 pages and that'll save you the headache of having to deal with somebody do it live...

As for the others, can't particularly say anything about Ashley, but Garrus and Tali, well, they're aliens.
Aliens!
I don't really think that gender is a big deal for them, seeing as they don't even have matching genetalia. Its like if you saw somebody having sex with a (consenting) chimpanzee. I'm almost positive your first thought isn't "Is it a boy chimpanzee or a girl chimpanzee?"

It definitely does not make BW look good when they broadcast the image that its better to screw an alien in which you'll probably kill her (not that gender's truly an issue) by an illness shortly after the act, than it is to hold hands with somebody of the same-sex. I don't believe thats the message they meant to put out, but its what itis.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 11 février 2011 - 10:04 .