9243 réponses à ce sujet

[FataliTensei]

catabuca wrote...

And while I'm on the subject, here, have a link to some awesome artwork I commissioned to go with a chapter I'm writing of Sheploo and Kaidan's reunion on Omega.
Potentially NSFW (Kaidan butt, oh my!).

O_o hot damn

[catabuca]

hotdogbsg wrote...

It's just a personal opinion about the characters.  For me it seems like it would be quite a sudden change . Is there anywhere in the first two games that may give a hint that Kaiden, for example, might be gay?

1) In terms of people who believe Kaidan gives off a 'is hot for manShep' vibe: there are lots of us. It's okay if you didn't get that vibe, we're cool with that, but respecting other's opinions and their right to believe what they want means you should return the favour and accept that perhaps we saw something you didn't. Is it wishful thinking? Hell yeah. Does that fact make it any less likely to us that Kaidan could be bi? Nope. (Examples of picking up this vibe: the way he wipes his forehead and slowly turns when Shep speaks to him on the Normandy; the 'losing you was like losing a limb' line; and lots of other little things that just sounded or felt right.)

2) Re: characters or people generally 'turning gay': Have you played Jade Empire? One of the male characters, Sky, was married, had a child, but later could be romanced by a male pc. Now, that's an example of the exact thing you say couldn't, or perhaps wouldn't, happen ... but it's already right there in another BioWare game. In terms of real life: the very definition of bisexuality is that the person finds both men and women attractive. This means that at some point that person would have had to have had their very first relationship with either a man or a woman. Because they had it with a woman, for example, does not then mean they can't or don't find men attractive. It's simple logistics -- unless they are some kind of Lynx advert kinda person (cultural reference may only be recognised by those in the UK), it's unlikely their relationships are always going to consist of dating a man and a woman at the same time, you know, just to prove to the world that they like both. And so, to repeat myself from previous posts: just because a person states he was once in love with a girl, this does not mean he does not find men attractive.

3) You ask if there has been any indication that Kaidan (or whoever) could be gay (I'll use bi, since any s/s LI's would also be o/s LIs, if for no other reason than resource management): remembering everything I've written above, let's ignore for the moment we're talking about sexual orientation. In ME1, was there any indication that either Garrus or Tali fancied humans? Was there any indication that they wanted to get into Shepard's pants? No. There wasn't. But people (or aliens) change. People who they previously didn't think of in that way may suddenly become appealing for one reason or another, when in a new situation, or because of having had time to get to know them.

Now let's pretend Kaidan had never been an LI for femShep. Now let's say that in ME3 he does show an interest in femShep. Would that be unrealistic? Would it be odd? Would it be impossible? Or unlikely even? No, it wouldn't. Because that's how some people's relationships develop. Let's bring sexual orientation back into the equation. With everything I said above in mind, about how it is perfectly reasonable to accept that a person could have been in love with a girl but also have had relationships with men, why would Kaidan growing to realise he likes manShep in ME3 be so different to the scenario of Kaidan growing to realise he likes femShep in ME3? It wouldn't.

If that situation did happen, there will of course be those who don't believe Kaidan could be bi, and that's fine. They won't believe it is realistic that he could grow to like him when he previously showed little or no obvious or explicit examples of feeling that way in ME1. That's fine. There will be those for whom it makes perfect sense. There will be those who don't really care either way and may try that new romance because it's new content and they like experiencing all a game has to offer. That's cool. Just like how in my game I don't particularly care for the fact that Tali or Garrus have come to like Shepard. All of my Shepards were good friends with Tali and Garrus, and don't see them in any other way. But I don't doubt that it is possible that they could have slowly realised that they do like humans, and that they have grown to love Shep the longer they have known him/her. I don't begrudge others the option to fall in love with Garrus or Tali, the option to read into ME1 a slow-burning relationship that was finally allowed to blossom in ME2. I'm happy for them, because it adds a richness to their game.

The situation with Kaidan growing to like manShep in ME3 could be approached in exactly the same way, and let's be clear here, the ONLY reason there is for people to find some kind of problem with it is if they have a problem with s/s relationships in general. Not saying you have to be a homophobe, because tolerance and respect are on a spectrum, just as sexuality is. But if you make a distinction between Garrus/Tali growing to love a human in ME2 that they didn't in ME1, and Kaidan growing to love Shep in ME3 when he didn't in ME1, well the only difference there is sexual orientation. You surely have to question where exactly your motivation for making that distinction is coming from inside you.

[catabuca]

Right, I know ^^ that is a big old wall of text. But seriously, as far as I'm concerned it pretty much answers the 'Kaidan couldn't ever possibly be bi' question about as thoroughly as it is possible to do so. So I would recommend reading it, even if it takes you 5 minutes.

[lawp79]

I agree with the above poster, I am female but I have always thought Kaidan gave off a erm, how did you put it? "hot for manshep vibe". Personally I would find it believable if Kaidan was gay or bi. I feel this way about a few characters but as Kaidan is being discussed I thought I would add my 2pence.

[Ziggy]

I'd believe it if they made Kaiden bi. Or Ash for that matter.

I guess they'd have to make both bi or neither since they play essentially the same role.

[catabuca]

FataliTensei wrote...

catabuca wrote...

And while I'm on the subject, here, have a link to some awesome artwork I commissioned to go with a chapter I'm writing of Sheploo and Kaidan's reunion on Omega.
Potentially NSFW (Kaidan butt, oh my!).

O_o hot damn

ikr?

[jeweledleah]

ok, I just have to pop out of lurking state because keeping my mouth shot for too long is not in my nature.

that brow wipe kaidan does? its the exact animation he does for every freaking shepard. male or female, romance or not - he does it because apparently its hot at his monitor and he got a bit of sweat in his eyes or something. its not the look, sorry, its the less then perfect animation and lightning.  oh and the limb line?  same story - he says it to every shepard, male or female, provided you pick the right conversation options.  for whatever reason - poor virmire survivors (and lets be honest, - shepards too) got stuck with extremely limited dialog for horizon - its part of what makes that particular scene so annoying to so many people

also - Kaidan was established as straight not because of his story about Rhana (who he only mentions as being interested in, if you're friendly to him, he doesn't even call her by name when telling you about that situation that made him so cautious - trying to avoid the spoilers here - if you are on professional basis with him). Kaidan is straight because he is flagged as such and therefore shows zero interest in maleshep other then a friend. whatever vibe you are getting, its your personal interpretation.   he does however show interest in Femshep from very beginning, so even if you don't pursue the relationship in first game, that seed is there. 

Most characters in ME if they mention prior relationship, they do so because its relevant to the main story in some way (yes, even Garrus). otherwise, they don't discuss their love lives. it doesn't mean that their sexuality is ambiguous or that they never had any prior relationships, it means that developers didn't see it as necessary to their character development.

additionally, and this is what's been annoying me personally the most. a lot of people here a maintaining that sexuality can change with time. that someone who was only interested in opposite gender could suddenly develop interest in same sex. so are you telling me that those hacks that claim that they can "fix" gay people to have "normal" orientation are actually correct? that you can take a gay guy and "fix" him to be attracted to women all of a sudden? because that's exactly what a lot of you are claiming here only in opposite direction. that you can take a straight person and "convert" them if the situation is right. hypocritical much?

lastly, no, resisting conversion of existing characters into a sexuality they didn't start out with is not the same as being opposed to same sex relationships, its basically trying to vilify people who disagree with your opinion. Most of us would be perfectly fine with same sex relationship in ME3, provided its with a new or existing, but previously unromancable character.

its the switching around of old characters that we're opposed to. http://tvtropes.org/...n/EveryoneIsGay contrary to popular belief does NOT make for a good story vast majority of the time. its fine for fanfiction, heck if you want to write your own original story with this trope in mind - more power to you (in fact, there are 2 webcomics that I personally know of that are doing just that, and its done excellently).

Modifié par jeweledleah, 12 février 2011 - 10:43 .

[catabuca]

jeweledleah wrote...

Snipped - because massive post was massive

Hi. Thanks for replying. First, let's try and keep it civil. We can discuss this without getting upset, and without resorting to moments that feel like 'I'm right, you're wrong, so FU', yes?

1) It's important to understand, there is a difference between saying 'Kaidan is definitely bi' and 'when I was playing the game, I could construe his actions in that way'. What you say about him wiping his brow, him saying 'losing a limb', shows that we all interpret things differently. I have absolutely no problem you having your opinion, that being that those actions and words do not indicate he may be bi. I'm happy you have that opinion. Why is it difficult to accept others may construe those actions otherwise? People read between the lines, and what lies between those lines won't always look the same for us all. Such is life. Recognising others may have other beliefs and feelings than you is called empathy.

2) Kaidan flagged as straight: I believe I covered this in my discussion of Tali and Garrus. They were flagged as not interested in either gender Shep, and therefore, if we extrapolate in the same fashion you are extrapolating for Kaidan, supposedly not interested in humans. I've covered this above, it doesn't need repeating. When I play a male Shepard, femShep doesn't exist. So Kaidan can't show any interest in her, so in a manShep run of the game, that point is moot. He still doesn't show any interest in manShep, of course this is true. But neither does Tali ... and so we wash, rinse and repeat.

3) Most characters not discussing their love lives doesn't mean they are sexually ambiguous: it doesn't mean they are sexually anything, by definition. If they don't discuss it at all, then anything can be implied by the player. Straightness, gayness, biness, into aliens, not into aliens, celibate, and so on. Using that argument only as a way to shut down the possibility of that character being bi seems a little one-sided.

4) The bit that's annoying you most: hmm. What would you say to the guy who was married to a woman for 10 years, and who slowly came to the realisation that he did, in fact, also like men? He didn't know when he met his wife, he had only had relationships with women, but as he grew older he recognised this other part of himself. Would you tell him that that is akin to trying to 'fix' gay people? I find your analogy odd. I'm sure it's not unheard of that there could be people who always identified as gay who at some point find themselves fancying a woman too. It happens in both directions, because sexuality is a spectrum, and we are not all fixed in place. You may never move from you place at one end of that spectrum, but to suggest no one else can ever move from their place along that spectrum is displaying a lack of empathy.

5) I'm familiar with TV Tropes. My argument I believe set it out quite clearly: there is essentially no difference between 'changing' the character of Tali or Garrus to 'suddenly' be interested in humans when they expressed no interest in them previously and 'changing' the character of Kaidan to 'suddenly' be interested in manShep when he expressed no interest in him previously. My point is that the only difference is one of sexual orientation. If your argument rests on the fact that Kaidan can pursue femShep and not manShep - as I said, in my manShep runs femShep doesn't exist, so unless we all only ever play in a meta way, as far as I see it that makes no difference.

I believe we're both coming at this from slightly different angles, and as such our arguments will never tally. I believe you're focusing on current in-game hard-coded facts, such as Kaidan being able to pursue f!Shep and not m!Shep, and using them as reasons why Kaidan couldn't be bi; whereas I'm focusing on the openness of the game, what is left unsaid, the spaces in between, and using them as reasons why, to me, it wouldn't break the game if Kaidan was written as bi in ME3. We're both entitled to those opinions, and I won't tell you outright that you are wrong. I'm happy to discuss this, in a civil way, but it requires an understanding that I'm also allowed to believe what I believe. You talk about it being 'interpretation'. Of course it is my interpretation. Likewise, yours is an interpretation too. While you are using 'facts' that you say give evidence it's more than just your interpretation, that it is established 'truth', I could say the same about my 'facts', but I won't, because I recognise 'truth' is subjective, and no one of us holds the absolute truth.

I see a lot of anger from various people when we suggest we'd like to see Kaidan as a bi LI in ME3. I really don't understand that anger. I'm not angry that Garrus or Tali are new LIs in ME2, even though my Sheps get personally aggravated by Tali's giggling, or by the fact they can't continue to talk to Garrus anymore because of the dialogue option sat there inviting you to initiate a romance with him. I'm happy that those options are there for those people who want to try that content, even though I myself don't. I don't understand why someone else would be so angry and furious at the thought of the same situation happening with Kaidan for m!Shep, if those people never need play that content, never need initiate those conversations, never need see it in their game. Why can't you be happy for the chance for more players to be happy, for there to be more options, for there to be a richer game experience? I just don't understand the anger.

Modifié par catabuca, 12 février 2011 - 11:53 .

[catabuca]

I wonder if there's any truth in the idea that some people are so against the idea of Kaidan being open to romancing m!Shep in ME3, way more so than they have expressed in terms of Garrus or Tali being romanceable in ME2, because they are so heavily invested in that character in their own games?

I understand that to an extent: I love Kaidan, I have several f!Shep games where they are completely in love/lust. But Kaidan is only 'mine' in my games. I don't care how others play him or perceive him in their games. Why would I?

My current m!Shep cares very deeply about Ash. If BW were to make Ash available as a s/s LI in ME3, that wouldn't affect my m!Shep game where he is romancing her. Their romance would still be the same, because in that game Ash is with m!Shep, not with anyone else. I wouldn't feel threatened by another player in, say France for example, deciding that their femShep will initiate a romance with Ash in ME3. Because my game still stays as I want it.

Yeah, so I wonder how much of this antipathy is born of a fear that players' beloved characters wouldn't be the same character in someone else's game?

[jeweledleah]

1. you are entitled to your interpretation just as I'm entitled to mine, however. sexuality flag in a code is not a matter of interpretation, and the fact is - Kaidan is flagged to be interested only in female shepard and he's flagged to express that interest immediately, unless said femshep shuts him down. he's not flagged to do same for maleshep and changing it that late in a trilogy is inconsistent and smacks of bad writing.

2. there is a difference between having no sexuality flags and then adding them in and existant sexuality flag being changed.

3. again, players can imply whatever they want, just like people fantasize about famous actors or hot models and that guy next door that looks so hot in his sleevless shirt, but it still doesn't change the fact that the characters are flagged for specific paths and written with those paths in mind.

4. splitting hairs, are we? discovery of repressed sexuality is not the same as changing your sexuality outright. and it seems like you ARE trying to tell me that its possible to turn straight or to turn gay and which case, I'll have to apologize to all those psychiatrists that I used to make fun of. I guess a certain kind of brainwashing is a-ok. The only character that comes across as someone who might not know what she wants just yet is Tali. Everyone else is pretty much set at this point, they are old enough and experienced enough to know for sure.

5. Tali likes and idolizes Shepard. she expresses trust in Shepard and a bit of a crush, but its Shepard who suggests more. its very similar with Garrus. neither of them is interested in humans (though apparently human/quarian relationship of the straight kind is not unheard of - any more detail is a spoiler) and Shepard's suggestions comes as a surprise. could they have been written as bi? yes. but they weren't, so that point is moot now.

we're looking fro ma different perspective yes, I'm looking at an overall picture and you're looking at your personal interpretation of your personal Shepard story, but the game doesn't exist in your personal vaccum and yes, it would ruin my enjoyment of the game if writers start changing fundamental qualities of the characters even more then they already do (I'm looking at you, Liara) - just to try and please a fraction of their fanbase.

btw- you can still use that option with Garrus without initiating romance. Garrus doesn't have enough lines in either case, but that's not just an issue with Garrus, its an issue with every single ME2 character.

why can't I be happy about more players being happy? because when exactly do these changes stop? are we going to turn into World of Warcraft where so many concessions were made, that every single race and class play almost exactly the same now, where lore went out the window 2 expansions ago, where everyone looks exactly the same, and it just keeps getting worse and worse. change for the sake of change, change for the sake of trying to please everyone (and its impossible, trust me) turns a good story into a very bad farce and in the end - pleases no one.

for your sake, I hope they make me3 compatible with set gender character transfers. for my sake, I hope that whatever romances they add or don't add keep fitting in with already established parameters of the story.

edited to add - just so we're clear.  the sexuality changes that I'm against?  that applies to all characters currently flagged for romance, not just Kaidan.  I have multiple Shepards and while Kaidan is my favorite romance option, the only character I've never romanced is Thane.  I'd still be heavily against changing Thane into bi-sexual, and I'm not invested in his character at all, heck I dont even use him beyond his loyalty mission.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 12 février 2011 - 12:22 .

[catabuca]

1) (and 2 and 3 I guess): I'm not sure the flag thing is all that relevant. The flags in the game, yes, the hard-coded flags said that Kaidan was romanceable by femShep not manShep. That's not under debate. It's an obvious fact, and one related to the physical building of the game. What it isn't, however, is a declaration that that character couldn't be flagged in another way in a later game. That's a story decision to be taken by the writers. The physical mechanics of the current game, the hard-coding under the hood, exist purely for the sake of that installment of the game, in order to make the game recognise which path a player takes in relation to the current available story decisions.

I disagree that there is a difference between having no romance flags and adding them in ME2, and there being one sexuality flag in ME1 and adding different ones in ME3. The mechanics don't matter, what matters is the storytelling. If the devs decided to write it in a convincing way, there is absolutely no reason why Kaidan couldn't decide the man he's been serving next to, the man he went through a difficult period with but is now reunited with again, isn't actually pretty hot. Just as there was no reason why Tali couldn't slowly realise that, now she's a little older, she is actually attracted to Shepard. It's a story issue, not an under-the-hood mechanics issue. And in terms of being written with certain paths in mind: Garrus and Tali weren't written with romance in mind in ME1; it was decided that because of the strength of feeling from fans after they played the game the devs would change direction and add those romances in. Paths change.

4) Whoa, where did that come from? Who's talking about changing sexuality outright? (Although, for what it's worth, I know plenty of people who fall down on the side of 'well I used to only like girls, but now I like guys too', as well as those who always liked guys/girls but repressed one side of that because of society/pressure etc. Both are acceptable and both are examples of real people and fluid sexuality. It may be set in stone for some, but it needn't be for others.) As I've said before, it needn't be handled in a way that has Kaidan suddenly saying 'OMG I like dudes now when I never did before'. Just because he said he loved Rahna doesn't mean he didn't also like men at the same time. He may just not have need to mention it. That might be one way the devs could handle it. In a kind of "Well, Commander, I've always had feelings for you but I didn't want to jeopardize our mission ... but I realise now life can be far too short, and I need to tell you how I feel." (He could say the same to femSheps who didn't romance him in ME1 too.) That would have no bearing on trying to 'retcon' that character, because everything that happened in mShep runs of ME1 would be consistent with that. There are ways and means if a writer decides they want to include something they hadn't previously decided to.

5) I'm not sure that is relevant. My discussion of Tali and Garrus is by way of illustrating that it is possible to have a character who previously showed no express interest in Shepard as now convincingly being written as being interested in them. When it comes down to the very basics of this discussion, that's exactly what we're talking about with Kaidan too. It's the same thing.

Allowing mShep to initiate a romance with Kaidan would not change any fundamental qualities of Kaidan that you enjoy. He'd still be a smoking hot biotic sex god, he'd still be sensitive and sweet, he'd still have his husky voice, and he'd still love your femShep, and he'd still be able to be just good friends with any of your menShep. Kaidan wouldn't have a break down while in a relationship with your femShep and confess that he also likes men. He would be just as into her as he always has been. So is it the mere knowledge that someone, somewhere, would be having their manShep kiss Kaidan that would ruin your game? Because that is really confusing. My Sheps would never be racist, and find the idea of racism abhorrent. But the knowledge that other players love siding with Terra Firma doesn't ruin my game. The option to give them support showing up at the bottom of the dialogue wheel doesn't ruin my game. I just don't pick it, and my Shep remains as culturally awesome as I want him to be. The presence of being able to romance a character, of whatever gender, that I do not want to romance will in no way ruin my game. BioWare make games full of choices, and that's what I love about them. And the more sections of the community that feel included by those choices the better.

To say 'where would it end' makes no sense, to my mind. It was okay to wish that Tali and Garrus be romance options but a step too far over an invisible line to wish the same for Kaidan and mShep? It's the same thing in action here as there was in the Tali and Garrus fan threads. It wouldn't lead to 'every little request' being shoe-horned into the game. That's a little alarmist.

We're not talking about asking for content like 'I demand Joker wear glitter on Wednesdays!': firstly, asking for the inclusion of m/m content (which you support in principle) is about redressing the balance so manShep gets the same opportunities as are already there for femShep; secondly, specifically showing an interest in that m/m option being Kaidan does nothing more than what was asked for in the Tali and Garrus threads - showing some love for a character we all love, saying we think he is downright freaking awesome, and wishing that manShep could get a little of that action ... just as people wished they could get a little Garrus and Tali action.

Like you, I also hope whatever romances they add stays true to 'established parameters' of the story. Where we disagree is what those parameters are. And that's fine. I don't want Kaidan to suddenly be a completely different character; I don't want him to break up with my femShep because he only likes men now; what I would love, however, is something along the lines of my suggestion further up this post - that after all they've gone through together, Kaidan decides it's time to confess his attraction to Shep. Since that wouldn't happen in my femShep game (or, in fact, it could if she hadn't already romanced him - wouldn't that be pretty sweet?), it wouldn't alter Kaidan's character in any way shape or form, and we're all happy bunnies.

[catabuca]

I have to go to meet my partner now (I'm running late), so I won't be able to answer anything else until later.

To briefly answer your edited part though (which appeared while I was writing): I accept it's not just a Kaidan thing, and you feel the same about all characters. One thing I'll say though, is that this 'changing them to bisexual' thing is the sticking point: the way it can be written is that they were always bi-sexual, but in a manShep run of the game never had either the opportunity or whatever to start a romance. It's a writing issue, not one of in-game flags. There is nothing to say that the writers couldn't write it so that Kaidan (or whoever) had always been bi, just that he never told us before now. That doesn't 'change' him, it merely expands upon the character we already know. It wouldn't 'change' him so he doesn't like femShep anymore, but expand his character so he also is open to pursuing a relationship with manShep now.

So yes, I think it's this issue of 'changing' them that is the big one. I and others clearly don't see it as changing anything, especially since we've roleplayed more often than not that Kaidan (or whoever) is already bi. You, and others I have no doubt, obviously do see it as changing something. On that point all we can do is agree to disagree

And now I really, really have to go.

[jeweledleah]

and once again, it comes down to the TV trope - in interest of equality, lets make everyone bi?

I know perfectly well that there are plenty of msheps kissing Kaidan and Thane, and Jacob and Garrus all over the place via set gender change, that doesn't bother me. femsheps romancing Ashley, Tally, Jack, and Miranda, there are fanfics that ship everyone and everything, regardless of their in game personas and that doesn't bother me either. its people's fantasies they can and do dream of whatever they want. they can roleplay that Brad Pitt is single, gay, and wants them in a threesome with Daniel Craig for all I care.

what I fundamentally disagree with you and others on, is the issue of set sexuality of the character - you feel like there's room for interpretation, I feel that there isn't. the in game code flags support my feeling. and what would bother me terribly if those flags were officially changed, essentially changing the entire game..4 years after its out. it doesn't just change the character for you, it changes the character for everyone, as much as you disagree on that. its like making Shep looking like a scion, or Garrus or any other skin you can put in - official selection. to me, there is no difference.

Sexuality is a lot less fluid then you think, I think. usually it comes down to people experimenting and then sticking with what works - they weren't changing sexually but rather were discovering what makes them tick. I highly doubt that ME universe with its diversity of species and people like Kelly being very open with their preferences - is homophobic. I don't think there's stigma attached to sexual preferences (doesn't seem like it anyways) so repressed sexuality doesn't really apply here.

you know what it reminds me off, this whole argument? back in highschool, I had this huge crush on a boy (pretty typical actually). He was friendly to me and I would imagine that there's something more to it, that he liked me liked me, that he looked at me as more then a friend, that when we touched, it meant something more romantic then just friends touching (our high-school gang was actually pretty touchy feeley, we hugged, we cuddled in one big pile, we used to do a lot of things that from the outside looking in, might seem more then they really were) I was absolutely crushed when I finally found the strength to pour out my feelings, thinking that maybe he just needed that tiny push...and he was interested in someone else. actually our friendship stuttered for a bit, until I just pretended like nothing happened (his relief was almost palpable)

sometimes, we cannot help what we feel or whom we feel it for. sometimes we see things that aren't exactly there. sometimes what we feel is only reciprocated in our fantasies. and honestly I understand where you're coming from, this being a video game and not real life, it seems like here - you CAN change how an object of your affection feels, just a few button presses here and there, some code tweaks, few lines of dialogue - bam, your fantasy is now more accessible. But it ruins the integrity of the character, it makes then less real, not more.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 12 février 2011 - 02:02 .

[catabuca]

what I fundamentally disagree with you and others on, is the issue of set sexuality of the character - you feel like there's room for interpretation, I feel that there isn't. the in game code flags support my feeling. and what would bother me terribly if those flags were officially changed, essentially changing the entire game..4 years after its out. it doesn't just change the character for you, it changes the character for everyone, as much as you disagree on that. its like making Shep looking like a scion, or Garrus or any other skin you can put in - official selection. to me, there is no difference.

Whoa. Yeah, we have a huge disagreement here. I'm not going to rehash all I've said, but I stand by my point that it wouldn't change anything, because the writing would be done in the context of a development of feelings throughout the trilogy, not a retconning of actions in a past game. Just like with Tali and Garrus.

Sexuality is a lot less fluid then you think, I think. usually it comes down to people experimenting and then sticking with what works - they weren't changing sexually but rather were discovering what makes them tick. I highly doubt that ME universe with its diversity of species and people like Kelly being very open with their preferences - is homophobic. I don't think there's stigma attached to sexual preferences (doesn't seem like it anyways) so repressed sexuality doesn't really apply here.

And I don't think repressed sexuality and stigma is an issue here either. As I stated quite clearly earlier, it could be written very well, and actually very sweetly, in a way that sees Kaidan's feelings for Shep (of any gender) grow, and vice versa, after all they've been through. It's not about Kaidan suddenly coming out (it would assume he was always out, just didn't say anything about it in the first game) -- it merely needs to be dropped into conversation that he'd always liked men and women, and then the important conversations, and the emphasis, can revolve around the fact that his feelings for Shep have grown over time, and that he now feels the looming threat to the galaxy makes it the right time for him to confess his attraction. The same could happen for femSheps who didn't romance Kaidan in ME1. It would be lovely for both.

I could imagine this conversation: Shep: "You never told me you liked other men, Kaidan." Kaidan: "You never asked, Shepard."

Or for previously-unromanced femShep: Shep: "You never hinted that you liked me before, Kaidan." Kaidan: "You never asked, Shepard."

Neither of those changes a thing about who Kaidan is, the way he acts, or whatever. It doesn't retcon him, but brings in a small and subtle reference to the fact these options weren't there before but now they are, and can give a plausible and really quite touching way to bring this relationship to new players who are experiencing ME3 as their first ME game as well, regardless of gender.

(And don't forget, there is a sizable portion of us who don't play on the PC and don't have access to changing game files and character gender sets. And even if we all could, it's not that great to watch Kaidan turn into a woman before Ilos.)

[ElitePinecone]

Not that this isn't fascinating. but maybe tone down the competing walls of text?



Agree with the issue of modding, it's an inelegant solution to an unfortunate problem, though the only one we have at the moment. It will be interesting to see what happens if, as expected, the next DLC is Virmire-survivor focused and offers an opportunity to reunite with Kaidan/Ashley in the same manner as Liara.

[catabuca]

While I'd love the last DLC to be VS dlc, if it means an epic reunion story is being saved for ME3, and that it would make sense best in the context of that game, I'm happy to wait.

Although I will freely admit it will make me feel a little prickly, since Liara got her own special 'I still love you Shepard' DLC.

[jeweledleah]

walls of text are my specialty along with spelling errors.

@catabuca - I have several problems with your scenario.
canonically - Kaidan is attracted to Femshep starting with Eden Prime. you can then encourage that attraction, or you can steer it towards friendship, or you can just nip anything but professional relationship in a bud. If Kaidan is attracted to either men or women from the beginning, why does he only respond to femshep?

a lot of Kaidan's dialogue is written with a way out for him in mind, its practically his philosophy of life, don't allow yourself to be backed into a corner. so why does he only give those subtle conversation hints to femshep and not maleshep? The friendship and camaraderie develops at the same pace for either gender, so what changes to make maleshep suddenly attractive and Kaidan willing to act on that attraction, that wasn't there before? that conversation of "you never asked, that's why I never said is very ret-cony, sorry", it just doesn't fit, not with the precedent of entire game full of disinterest before.

Kaidan aside - there are people who want other characters to be "expanded" to bisexuality. so if we please everyone - we end up with "everyone is gay" scenario, which is quite frankly silly, sorry. so that means we have to pick and chose who gets rewritten and who doesn't? how? whosever fanbase is loudest? Technically you can just as easily create convincing argument for any character being possibly bisexual, their personal histories are unknown enough. Every single character, yes even Jacob, has their same sex fanbase - one only needs to go to youtube and/or several fanfic sites to see that. So how do you remain fair to everyone and not turn the game into a farce?

in my opinion, the only solution is to keep romance flags as they are and add new LI's.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 12 février 2011 - 02:59 .

[catabuca]

I disagree with you on many levels. You disagree with me. We're not going anywhere with this so I suggest we just leave each other to express our opinions without arguing.

[jeweledleah]

all right. we're not arguing about any specific character. I'm just curious how you'd reconcile the issue of fairness to all the fans vs keeping the story from getting too troperific for its own good? how do you chose which characters get expanded and which don't? how do you decide, considering the lack of definitive preferences we get on basically all of the romancable characters right now?

[catabuca]

Well I don't get to decide, BioWare does. And I'm more than happy for that to be the case.

When I make those big old walls of text, it's not about demanding Kaidan be brought in as a bi option in ME3, it's more about addressing concerns people raise as to why they say he can't be. And when I talk more generally (when not discussing the things we were discussing in our mega-posts) about how I wish he was available for my Shep to love, well I see that as no different than the other fan threads where people wish their character of choice was romanceable. I guess you could also ask the Tali and Garrus fans if they think it was fair that their favourite characters got brought in as romance interests for ME2 when someone like Wrex didn't (he has his fair share of fans too).

The devs have stated that Tali and Garrus were written as LIs in 2 because of the strength of feeling in the fandom. If the writers were going to do something similar for any other previous character, be it introducing Kasumi or Joker as a romance interest in ME3, or making Kaidan available to mSheps in 3, I'm sure they have many factors they'll look at before deciding to do that, and one of those may well just be dependent on the strength of feeling amongst the fans, just like it was for Tali and Garrus.

When it comes down to it, BW is gonna write what it wants to write ... and fans are going to wish for whatever their preferences are. The BSN should be a safe haven for us all to feel free to express our desires and wishes for the future, and it's fun to imagine what could be.

Modifié par catabuca, 12 février 2011 - 03:23 .

[jeweledleah]

Well in that case, I do hope they remain reasonable and true to the story (though I think I've read somewhere that Tali was intended as a romantic interest from the start, only Garrus wasn't)



like I said, I have no issue with fan threads and fan fics and fan art, but this thread just felt to me as thinly veiled demand for "expansion" of existing characters.

[Whatever42]

I see absolutely nothing wrong in asking. I was generally against Tali/Garrus, because I saw Tali as the little sister I never wanted, so having our conversations suddenly get all awkwardly romantic was off-putting, but whatever. I'd probably feel the same way about Kaidan trying to cuddle up to me, but again, whatever. But that had better be the end of it. I'm tired of being seen as a sex-object to half the galaxy!

[catabuca]

I don't think any of us have ever 'demanded' anything. The closest anyone has ever got to a demand would be via the degrees of outrage we feel at the double standard between fShep and mShep (where she can date Liara but he can't date any men, or any aliens who look like men).

Everything pertaining to specific characters has almost always been treated in a way that gleefully speculates how it could be handled if it was introduced, talks about the roleplaying we have done in our own games re: how we imagined Shep being gay and the reasons we told ourselves for him not having a relationship with Kaidan or whoever, and the general fannish squeeing that goes on in other fan threads regarding how awesome we think it would be if our preferred character was available in ME3.

If my more serious wall of text posts came across as a demand then we crossed even more wires. As I said, that discussion was more about the point of character development and certain things being set in stone or not as the case may be, and can be equally related to any number of issues that change in between games, not just sexuality.

[Suron]

I have NO problem with same-sex couples IRL or Video Games/Other Media.



however at this point and juncture Shepard is -NOT- homosexual.



to introduce him/her as such ONLY in ME3 cheapens it..and would make it so he/she is ONLY homosexual because of pressure by the fans.



Sorry but I honestly see no reason for this at this point and time. Not that I'm against it mind you..I just don't see the point for such a "rally" because in the end..even if you get it..it's still forced and cheap.

[catabuca]

fShep can be already. Just not mShep. It's the double standard we would like addressing.

And, my single Sheps are gay ... and there is absolutely nothing in the game that contradicts that. Just sayin'.