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[Suron]

catabuca wrote...

fShep can be already. Just not mShep. It's the double standard we would like addressing.
And, my single Sheps are gay ... and there is absolutely nothing in the game that contradicts that. Just sayin'.

well if you're shepard is already gay then this thread is doubly trite.

[catabuca]

Not sure why. This thread is about having that option recognised in game like it is for fShep.

[Whatever42]

Suron wrote...

catabuca wrote...

fShep can be already. Just not mShep. It's the double standard we would like addressing.
And, my single Sheps are gay ... and there is absolutely nothing in the game that contradicts that. Just sayin'.

well if you're shepard is already gay then this thread is doubly trite.

No, he just wants somebody to be gay with. Everyone needs some lovin, even gay Shepards.

[Saeran]

All I can see in this thread is people being very "cold" about the situation. Shepard hasn't had a homosexual option in game not because he isn't a homosexual, but due to the fact that it's not present in the game. My Shepard is homosexual, and someone saying he "isn't and never will be" doesn't make mine any less homosexual than I choose to make him.



Last I checked this game was about choice. You decide your characters actions and how the universe plays out. It doesn't and won't cheapen it for anyone should people like me and many others GET the option to have that romance. What feels cheap is the fact that a heterosexual male gets all variety's of options, a heterosexual female gets all variety's of options.. and homosexual females get a couple of options. It feels cheap that I shouldn't get that option at all. Some of us aren't asking for anything special or any special treatment. Just to be included.

[Capeo]

Suron wrote...

I have NO problem with same-sex couples IRL or Video Games/Other Media.

however at this point and juncture Shepard is -NOT- homosexual.

to introduce him/her as such ONLY in ME3 cheapens it..and would make it so he/she is ONLY homosexual because of pressure by the fans.

Sorry but I honestly see no reason for this at this point and time. Not that I'm against it mind you..I just don't see the point for such a "rally" because in the end..even if you get it..it's still forced and cheap.

The whole Shepard is not homosexual thing is simply not the case.  You can play a femShep as exclusively lesbian via Liara and Kelly Chambers and the getting dances from asari and asking women to dance.  The double standard is that you can't do anything similar with a male Shepard.

They should have s/s LIs.  I agree though, that characters you couldn't previously s/s romance should stay that way.  While I appreciate the argument that in a single play through you could argue, say, that Kaiden could be interested in men.  But who plays through ME games once?  I'd venture that the vast majority of players play through multiple times with both male and female characters.  To me that makes characters that couldn't be s/s romanced canon.

There's definetely room to add the option in with previously unromancable (is that a word?) characters or new characters though.  Tali expresses that she'd join suits with you no matter your sex.  They wouldn't have to change anything, just let that develop in ME3.  On the male/male front I think they'd have to introduce a new character.  Due to their bias towards female/female romances they haven't laid any groundwork at all for any of the existing male characters.

[catabuca]

Really well said, Saeran

Capeo, I respect your opinion about current characters, but still disagree. But that's okay

I think I focus on Kaidan because firstly I like him so darned much XD; but also because some of his dialogue (in both games) appears to me to be ambiguous, in that it could be viewed as a very, very tentative build-up towards something. I'm fully aware not everyone thinks that though. I think I do get that vibe, however, because Kaidan was originally written as bi, the scripts were written and sent out to the VAs with that in mind, and that content was cut at a later date. Of course, I don't deny that in the final release of the game that path was locked down -- that's simply stating a fact. But I bring that issue up merely because I think that's why some of his dialogue sounds ambiguous -- because it would have originally made up part of his dialogue had he been romancing a male Shepard*. And I guess that's why others bring up Kaidan as an example of someone they'd love to see as a bi LI in ME3 so much, far more often than other characters that I've noticed at any rate.

*Another reason I bring this up is because that feels exactly the same with Tali's 'linking suits' dialogue and fShep. In that, it would have been part of a romance dialogue had that option been there for female Shepards. Since you brought it up as a possible way for Tali to be open to fSheps at a later date -- well I see a similar thing for Kaidan. But again, we don't all see the same things

Modifié par catabuca, 12 février 2011 - 05:09 .

[London]

I chose to focus on Kaidan because his character's sexuality seemed ambiguous to me, and because of one version of the script where BioWare actually wrote Kaidan to be bi in ME1.

I think catabuca hit the nail on the head when he stated that some people are so hostile to this aspect of Kaidan's character being written back into his character in ME3 because they are so invested in him. Jeweled for example is a participant in the Kaidan Alenko support threads so she probably one some level would have issue with knowing that in some alternate universe where her femShep doesn't exist and Shep is male, Kaidan might have an interest in him. I fail to see how this would impact her femShep if the issue never comes up - Kaidan doesn't have to start checking out guys in front of her or talking about it in femShep playthroughs. Women frequently have aversion to the idea of dating possibly bisexual men so it's not surprising.

Meanwhile, characters people are not as attached to, like Tali and Garrus, writing in the romance is mere "character development." Strangely, Kaidan's bisexuality being re-written back into the script can't possibly be "character development?" It seems like very selective reasoning.

Modifié par SebastianDA, 12 février 2011 - 05:09 .

[catabuca]

Either way, I'm not going to stop shipping my OTP Sheploo/Kaidan, and I love it when I see other people shipping their preferred OTPs too, whether they currently exist as an option in game or not. We all love these characters for various reasons; let's support each other in that love

[Capeo]

Honestly, catabuca, I have only played through ME2 (quite a few times now), so I'm not familiar with any implied or apparent ambiguity in Kaiden's dialog options. I just know he wasn't coded that way in the final game. If they're there then I would see developing that further as good path for BW. Not to mention, I know just adding a new character in ME3 that's open to male/male relations doesn't carry the weight of an established character. Just from perusing this thread it's clear that Kaiden is the most desirable option for folks who want male/male relationships in the game. In the end, I'd see no harm to canon in letting that happen.



Either way, I just want to see the option there somehow even though I wouldn't use it. I'm part of the straight male demographic they catered to by allowing lesbian romances. BW games have always been about options though and they lack of a male/male option in a game that allows lesbian options is just shortsighted and, honestly, just not fair. I expected ME2 to be like Dragon Age in regard to LIs but it's a far cry from that. One, in the lack of options and two, in the ease of entering the romances. In ME2 all you do is the characters loyalty mission and they throw themselves at you. DAO had a much more rewarding system where you had to actually work at it and you could screw it up if you weren't careful.



Anyway, if they could make Kaiden a romance option for a male Shep without blowing canon up I'd be all for it. Just as my female canon save Shep better be able to romance Tali and, in the process, see her face. That would be epic.

[catabuca]

XD

I know it must be difficult to form an opinion on someone like Kaidan just from playing ME2, and of course there are plenty of people who disagree about him and the bi issue who have played 1. We all see different things and interpret them in different ways.

But you're right, it's ultimately about choice, and the lack of it when it comes to m/m options. It's a real shame, and has, in the end, only opened BW up for criticism. We and critics all know they have a fantastic reputation when it comes to inclusive relationship content, and that is perhaps why the lack of m/m content (when f/f is present) in the ME franchise is such a hot topic. Precisely because it looks like a step backward from this otherwise awesome and clued-up company. I think that's why the topic can become so fiery at times.

And I agree that all the romances would have benefited from a deeper treatment like in DAO. However, if you ever get a chance to play Mass Effect 1 I highly recommend it. The romances are handled in a slightly different way, and there feels like there is much more of a meaningful build-up, and it's certainly not all about sex. Okay, not all the ME2 ones are either ... but they are often pretty quick to go from 'we're having a normal chat' ... to 'I think you're hot' ... followed by no more conversation until a quick shag before the relay. In ME1, there was 'relationship' dialogue right from the very first conversation, and it felt far more natural (to me at least) than the awkward ME2 romances.

[catabuca]

SebastianDA wrote...

Women frequently have aversion to the idea of dating possibly bisexual men so it's not surprising.

Just stating for the record that I am not one of those women ... but to go into it any deeper would be perhaps revealing too much about myself

[MisterDyslexo]

SebastianDA wrote...

Meanwhile, characters people are not as attached to, like Tali and Garrus, writing in the romance is mere "character development." Strangely, Kaidan's bisexuality being re-written back into the script can't possibly be "character development?" It seems like very selective reasoning.

QFT

However, to be honest, I don't see how they could make the development in this way all that well. I mean there are plenty of reasons as to why he might just suddenly be available in ME3 to males, for whatever reason. There was definitely some dynamic character development in Kaidan between Shepard's death, and Horizon. I'm no expert writer, or certified psychologist, or anything like that but I'd think, from personal experience, that having somebody that close/important to you would have you do some thinking about life.

There's plenty of room for development, but I don't see Bioware doing it well. Hell, out of all the games I've ever played or seen, very few actually had a gay/bisexual character of importance. Then take out the token hot eye-candy bisexual girls *cough cough* KELLY *cough*. Then take out the stereotypes *cough cough* Zevran *cough cough*. That leaves maybe a handful of characters like that, and only one of which developed internal conflict with sexuality (which was done brilliantly by the way). The overwhelming number of the other 2 were secure in sexuality, but they did develop conflict and exposition on it, even if not done very well (deserves praise regardless). So that 3, out of... yeah, a lot.

I don't think that Bioware would take this path, but if anybody could do it right, Bioware could.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 12 février 2011 - 07:54 .

[catabuca]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

snippy ...

I mean there are plenty of reasons as to why he might just suddenly be available in ME3 to males, for whatever reason. There was definitely some dynamic character development in Kaidan between Shepard's death, and Horizon. I'm no expert writer, or certified psychologist, or anything like that but I'd think, from personal experience, that having somebody that close/important to you would have you do some thinking about life.

... snippy

This. Most definitely this. It is certainly do-able in a very convincing and meaningful way. Whether it will be done, however, it a completely different matter (and I agree, at this point I don't think BW will do it ... but I live in hope, and would love them so much for it).

And in terms of BW altering characters, we need only look at some of the discussions that have been going on in the DA2 forum about Anders and others. The devs have stated that if they wanted to bring an old character back they would do so, regardless of any conflict there may be with the outcomes of some people's games (ie Anders' fate in Awakenings), and that, while they would try to remain faithful to what makes that character that character, their previous portrayal isn't as sacrosanct as some forumites might wish. And they will alter certain things if they believe it makes sense for the current story they are writing. Now, this was the DA2 team speaking, not the ME team ... but it simply illustrates that writers will write what they want and what they believe makes sense for the story in hand. If they wanted to suddenly make Tali and Garrus LIs they would find a way to make it convincing -- and indeed they did. If they wanted to bring back another character and now also make them available to the same sex, they will find a convincing way. (Again, not saying it's going to happen ... just that it's not an impossible scenario more generally.)

[Athro]

 I certainly got a gay vibe off Kaiden in ME 1, and it was much stronger in the Horizon scene in ME 2. It's not a big stretch to see him falling for Male Shep after Virmire - especially.

Nothing in any dialogue with Kaiden has ruled out that he could be bi. He also clearly looks up to Shep. If Shepard turns down both Ash and Liara, then risks his own life to save Kaiden's before a nuclear weapon goes off - I'd say Kaiden would definitely be thinking that there is something about their relationship that goes beyond comrades.

In regards to the argument that Kaiden isn't gay - actually none of the characters technically have a sexuality because they are fictional. Due to the nature of RPGs, their sexuality isn't defined until you talk to them - then it becomes the reality of that particular game. Just because Kaiden could be bi in one game doesn't automatically make him bi in another.

When looking at the "I don't want to accidently get the gay in my game" argument - well this makes it even more logical to have Kaiden as a gay love interest in Mass Effect 3. Because in order for him to be gay love interest, the player needs to have refused Liara, refused Ashley and saved Kaiden. Even then, they still need to flirt with him in Mass Effect 3. I'm pretty confident that the number of heterosexual players who meet all those conditions would likely be incredibly small. Small enough that they have no reason to complain about the option being provided.

There is no good logical reason for Bioware to not allow a m/m romance for Shepard. None at all.

[catabuca]

Athro wrote...

 I certainly got a gay vibe off Kaiden in ME 1, and it was much stronger in the Horizon scene in ME 2. It's not a big stretch to see him falling for Male Shep after Virmire - especially.

Nothing in any dialogue with Kaiden has ruled out that he could be bi. He also clearly looks up to Shep. If Shepard turns down both Ash and Liara, then risks his own life to save Kaiden's before a nuclear weapon goes off - I'd say Kaiden would definitely be thinking that there is something about their relationship that goes beyond comrades.

In regards to the argument that Kaiden isn't gay - actually none of the characters technically have a sexuality because they are fictional. Due to the nature of RPGs, their sexuality isn't defined until you talk to them - then it becomes the reality of that particular game. Just because Kaiden could be bi in one game doesn't automatically make him bi in another.

When looking at the "I don't want to accidently get the gay in my game" argument - well this makes it even more logical to have Kaiden as a gay love interest in Mass Effect 3. Because in order for him to be gay love interest, the player needs to have refused Liara, refused Ashley and saved Kaiden. Even then, they still need to flirt with him in Mass Effect 3. I'm pretty confident that the number of heterosexual players who meet all those conditions would likely be incredibly small. Small enough that they have no reason to complain about the option being provided.

There is no good logical reason for Bioware to not allow a m/m romance for Shepard. None at all.

You make a really good argument, several of them actually! I agree with everything you wrote <3

[Athro]

catabuca wrote...


You make a really good argument, several of them actually! I agree with everything you wrote <3

Thanks. I genuinely believe that Bioware are making a mistake by neglecting the gay gamers and others who are asking for m/m romance to be an option. I also believe that the majority of players of Mass Effect either want it or wouldn't be bothered if the option was available - it's just that these forums have a very vocal minority who want to quash any such possibility.

As I've always pointed out - The Sims not only allowed gay relationships, but had gay marriage and is the biggest selling PC game of all time.

The argument that having gay romance available as an option in a game will hurt its sales is a myth. The number of people who try to prevent such options are an extreme minority. On the other hand there are a lot of gay, bisexual and even heterosexual gamers out there who are regular Bioware supporters because such options are made available, and I genuinely believe they together outnumber the anti-gay customers of Bioware. The fact that this topic keeps coming up in these forums and keeps having many new members - who are clearly not sock puppets either - speaking up about it suggests that the demand for this option is considerably high. Bioware needs to listen and pay attention to that.

C.

[jeweledleah]

what I'm seeing here form a lot of the posters is not the desire for M/M romance in general. I'm seeing desire for a specific favorite character to be wish fulfilled. they will fight tooth and nail, trying to convince everyone that it actually makes sense, that there are hints, patterns, whatever else in a behavior of a computer generated character with limited dialogue largely due to costs of recording said dialogue, to allow this specific character be "reasonably expanded"

this is not about equal representation anymore, its not about a lack of M/M romance in general, its about a lack of specific M/M romance. some people are so involved in their characters, so involved with the story they created in their minds, they will argue and plead and reason and sometimes even accuses others of lack of compassion, that it should be made real. because THEY wish for it, and they thought about it so much that it makes perfect sense in their minds.

they will pretend to be happy if new m/m LI will be added in ME3, but in reality they will be disappointed that it wasn't the character THEY wanted. /shrug.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 13 février 2011 - 01:58 .

[ElitePinecone]

jeweledleah wrote...

snip

For the record that isn't the aim of this thread (at least the way I'm interpreting it), and it's unfortunate that in the last, oh, 20 pages this has become the topic of discussion. 

FftL wants to expand romance options in general, according to the original post. Whichever form this takes, or none at all, is the perogative of Bioware. Suggestions have been made as to how m'm and f/f romances could be implemented.

I don't have a problem with posters arguing the plausibility of Kaidan as an m'm option in future DLC or ME3. Yes, this might be wish-fulfillment, but so were the frequent and slightly giddy demands for Tali and Garrus to be LIs in ME2.

We know how that went. 

If people want to have a romance with this bird-like guy with an exoskeleton, then okay. - Hudson

That being said, there's a risk that overloading this thread with Kaidan appreciation may detract from worthy suggestions for other possibilities for m/m content in the future. 

[MisterDyslexo]

I think its just a matter of personal preferance. How many human males are there in Mass Effect? Now how many are or were part of Shepard's crew? How many are not DLC? There's only two options left now. And guess what's more popular, Kaidan, or "the priiiize"? This going on now is no different than somebody wanting a male quarian romance, and wanting Kal Reegar in particular, or another turian on the team, and asking for Captain Gavorn rather than possibly have the one harassing the asari at Afterlife.

And of course, they wouldn't be so happy if it weren't Kaidan in ME3. Do you think the people asking for the Talimance for ME2 would've been happy if we got another random quarian instead? My guess is no. People have their favourite characters. They want "x" character to be able to do "y" because your playstyle is "z".



And from my personal standpoint, you seem to being a bit stubborn about the whole thing. I'll go back to that thing about Tali. There were people who didn't want her to be romanceable in ME2, for whatever reason. Yet she was, and I don't hear grief about it. About the 'mancers themselves, maybe, but not the character. Nobody's going "OMG noooo my favourite character is ruined!". I can tell you that I didn't want Tali to be romanceable, because she's a lot like my sister, and I was worried that I'd be talking to her and she's starts getting nervous and then up in my there would be a buck-tooth old white man on his porch playing a few banjo notes while unspeakable acts happen, and that I'd forever associate Tali with that image, therefore ruining my ME experience. But that hasn't happened, and I doubt its happened to anybody else. Thats because I played ME the way I wanted to, and Talimancers did their own. I Rp'd my way, they did their way. I don't see why putting up such a fight about this.

[London]

Jewelled, as others said, Kaidan/Ashley come up a lot because they were originally scripted to be bi options, or were scripted as such somewhere along the way.

Your post is quite hypocritical as you swoop in with your unswearing defense of your own ideas about these characters; a third of the posts on this topic have come from you.

Also this would not even be an issue if the issue was handled appropriately (IMO) from the beginning, with Ashley/Kaidan left as they were scripted at some point in time. It's not like we picked a character wildly out of a hat to try to steal him from you.

Kaidan / Ashley come up with some frequency because their romance plots were meant to be told over the course of the entire trilogy.  Throwing in a random new character now prevents S/S romance players from experiencing the impact of relationships changing over time over the trilogy.

Modifié par SebastianDA, 13 février 2011 - 03:55 .

[Siansonea]

I personally don't care what is discussed in this thread, as long as it relates to the topic. Sure, sometimes the conversation will focus on specific characters for awhile, but that's part of the subject we're talking about. Nothing wrong with that as long as it all remains civil. Disagreement is fine, even encouraged, if it can be carried out with mutual respect on the part of all parties involved.



Some existing characters lend themselves to expansion to include same sex romances more than others, I think we all agree about that. As people have stated above, Kaidan is in many ways an obvious choice for male/male romance, and I would suggest that Ashley is an obvious choice for female/female romance for many of the same reasons. To me, the main advantage of expanding those two characters is that it would automatically 'deepen' the romance connection, simply by virtue of the fact that the LI is at that point literally the squad mate that Shepard has known the longest. Kaidan is on the Normandy with Shepard from the beginning, and Ashley comes along during the 'routine shakedown mission' on Eden Prime, before Shepard has even met Garrus, Liara, Tali or Wrex. The existing Kaidan/Ashley romances, as well as the Liara romance, have the most emotional weight in the game because of how far back Shepard's history goes with them. Implementing new same-sex options in ME3 (with a very different buildup than the parallel opposite-sex romance continuation, obviously) seems pretty logical to me. Personally, I found the alien romances with Tali and Garrus much more of a stretch. But BioWare did a decent job giving those fans what they wanted without antagonizing the people who didn't want it. I think they could do the same or better with Kaidan/Ashley same-sex romances if they put their minds to it.

[Cootie]

Siansonea II wrote...

I personally don't care what is discussed in this thread, as long as it relates to the topic. Sure, sometimes the conversation will focus on specific characters for awhile, but that's part of the subject we're talking about. Nothing wrong with that as long as it all remains civil. Disagreement is fine, even encouraged, if it can be carried out with mutual respect on the part of all parties involved.

Some existing characters lend themselves to expansion to include same sex romances more than others, I think we all agree about that. As people have stated above, Kaidan is in many ways an obvious choice for male/male romance, and I would suggest that Ashley is an obvious choice for female/female romance for many of the same reasons. To me, the main advantage of expanding those two characters is that it would automatically 'deepen' the romance connection, simply by virtue of the fact that the LI is at that point literally the squad mate that Shepard has known the longest. Kaidan is on the Normandy with Shepard from the beginning, and Ashley comes along during the 'routine shakedown mission' on Eden Prime, before Shepard has even met Garrus, Liara, Tali or Wrex. The existing Kaidan/Ashley romances, as well as the Liara romance, have the most emotional weight in the game because of how far back Shepard's history goes with them. Implementing new same-sex options in ME3 (with a very different buildup than the parallel opposite-sex romance continuation, obviously) seems pretty logical to me. Personally, I found the alien romances with Tali and Garrus much more of a stretch. But BioWare did a decent job giving those fans what they wanted without antagonizing the people who didn't want it. I think they could do the same or better with Kaidan/Ashley same-sex romances if they put their minds to it.

Oh, goodness, am I glad to see you again!
I have been sitting here in silence for quite some time thinking of how to voice my opinion, and you put it perfectly. Thank you for making my job easier.

[Athro]

jeweledleah wrote...

what I'm seeing here form a lot of the posters is not the desire for M/M romance in general. I'm seeing desire for a specific favorite character to be wish fulfilled. they will fight tooth and nail, trying to convince everyone that it actually makes sense, that there are hints, patterns, whatever else in a behavior of a computer generated character with limited dialogue largely due to costs of recording said dialogue, to allow this specific character be "reasonably expanded"

this is not about equal representation anymore, its not about a lack of M/M romance in general, its about a lack of specific M/M romance. some people are so involved in their characters, so involved with the story they created in their minds, they will argue and plead and reason and sometimes even accuses others of lack of compassion, that it should be made real. because THEY wish for it, and they thought about it so much that it makes perfect sense in their minds.

they will pretend to be happy if new m/m LI will be added in ME3, but in reality they will be disappointed that it wasn't the character THEY wanted. /shrug.

I think you're missing the point entirely here. People have brought up Kaidan because he's the obvious solution as I pointed out before.

I don't think many people here would have a problem with another gay option, if Bioware choose to go that route. The argument here is that there is a strong desire among a considerable group to see m/m romance in Mass Effect. Kaidan, as others have said, is the obvious choice - and I have outlined how by making Kaidan a m/m LI in ME3 Bioware can please the most number of players simply because it is a very logical way to address both the desire for m/m romance and the fears of those who don't like the idea of "accidently" romancing a male.

It has always been about equal representation, and your argument sounds more like an attempt to strawman those reasonable arguments. What is also being brought out in these discussions is that in the lack of a tangible m/m romance a lot of players "filled in the gaps."

Nobody is ever going to be 100% happy, but I see no evidence in any of these posts to support your claim that people will "pretend" to be happy. All I see are people telling Bioware how they have felt, how they have been engaging in the game and suggesting a way that Bioware could introduce an m/m romance.

C.

[jeweledleah]

I don't see any of the existing LI's as an "obvious" choice (considering their coded flags and the way their conversations are currently set up, certain options not showing up, minor differences here and there, where its no longer possible to have neutral "fits all" dialogue), especially ME1 LI's because their romances are a lot more fleshed out then those in ME2, so I feel that bridging that gap is going to be a lot more ..awkward.

but people here disagree with me and there's basically nothing I can possibly say anymore to a devoted fan to make them think otherwise. At the risk of sounding offensive here, its like people trying to see a bromance as something sexual. you don't have to be sexually involved with someone in order to be extremely close emotionally. its especially true in battle situations and closely knit teams.

I'm not sure why I keep trying really. Its like telling Tally fan, that no you really cannot have quarian/human babies because their respective DNA's are incompatible - heck 2 humans with incompatible blood types have issues having safe pregnancy, but they want it to happen and they will invent a "science" that will allow it to happen.

blah.

All I can hope for is that whatever Bioware chooses to do, fits with their overall vision of the Mass Effect universe and its characters.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 13 février 2011 - 05:03 .

[MisterDyslexo]

jeweledleah wrote...

I don't see any of the existing LI's as an "obvious" choice (considering their coded flags and the way their conversations are currently set up, certain options not showing up, minor differences here and there, where its no longer possible to have neutral "fits all" dialogue)
 

In other words, you don't see them as being retcon-able. Same thing with Tali and Garrus. Why didn't Tali flirt with Shepard in ME1? There was no given reason as to why not, yet nobody questions it. Same for Garrus. Why couldn't you headbump in ME1? No real given reason. Except that for both of these characters, they retconned, through character development.

Garrus had Shepard die, went back to C-Sec, got frustrated, went to Omega, pulled Batman for a little while, got his team killed. Then in comes Shepard to save the day. I'd say those events can cause character development; how he acts and feels about something.

Tali's exploits are less obvious. We know she went on the be a leader of scientific research groups, mostly due to her involvement in Saren's persecution. We see a file about her in the Shadow Broker dossier as well, trying to compose a letter to the parents of somebody who died while under her command. And of course, Shepard died, having an effect.

Its a life-changing experience. This affected their outlook on life, how they act, what they do differently, etc. Its the justification. There seems to be no reason as to why it can't apply here to Kaidan, Ashley, or any other character. You can't just say "Well you couldn't do it in ME1, so it doesn't make sense", because thats already been disproven. Of course, this only really works if they pull off the whole "life-changing experience" part. If the interactions between MaleShep and FemShep were the same, nothing would have changed in his character, and it doesn't explain as to why in ME1 you couldn't romance him. Sobasically there needs to be development in a character. Seeing his commander, who led him through hell-and-high water, chose his life to save on Virmire, die in front of him should have an impact on him. Plus, we see that he acts a bit differently from before in his letter to FemShep if you romanced him. I'm assuming that something along these lines happened regardless of how you were involved with him. So, according to whats been done with Garrus and Tali, there is room for reasonable retcon, as long as its done through viable character development.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 13 février 2011 - 05:20 .