9243 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

we disagree on fluidity of sexual orientation, aliens aside (and to be honest, those romances are not something I see as particularly romantic and they are just barely plausible). Its as simple as that.



to me, to change sexual orientation to this degree? that would require brainwashing of some sort. hey, being brainwashed is pretty life changing.

[Ryzaki]

...You're saying just because someone isn't in love with someon from the same species they can't be romantic? Or their implausible? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 février 2011 - 05:42 .

[MisterDyslexo]

jeweledleah wrote...

we disagree on fluidity of sexual orientation, aliens aside (and to be honest, those romances are not something I see as particularly romantic and they are just barely plausible). Its as simple as that.

to me, to change sexual orientation to this degree? that would require brainwashing of some sort. hey, being brainwashed is pretty life changing.

So its somewhat reasonable/not too absurd to decide, after some soul-searching, to start having sex with the member of an entirely different species, but to do the same with a person of the same sex, it has to be brainwashing?

*sigh*

I throw in the towel on this one.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 13 février 2011 - 05:52 .

[Athro]

jeweledleah wrote...

we disagree on fluidity of sexual orientation, aliens aside (and to be honest, those romances are not something I see as particularly romantic and they are just barely plausible). Its as simple as that.

to me, to change sexual orientation to this degree? that would require brainwashing of some sort. hey, being brainwashed is pretty life changing.

The error you are making here is that you are presuming that Kaidan's sexuality is set in stone. As if it is a fixed part of the character. The thing is that Kaidan's sexuality never comes up in a game where the player is playing a male Shepard who isn't interested in Liara or Ashley. So in that "alternate universe" if you like - Kaidan might just be bisexual.

Just because he was straight in your storyline doesn't mean he is straight in every storyline. That is the beauty of a game where the player's decisions effect how the story unfolds. Until things are stated in the game, they aren't "fixed."

Nothing about Kaidan's history or story is contingent on him being straight. You're attributing fixed traits to a game where there is little fixed. As has already been stated in this thread - Shepard is gay, straight and bi depending on the player - so why can't the NPC's sexual preference be as fluid?

If Kaidan could have been propositioned in ME1 and explicitly rejected Shepard, then I'd agree with you. But that isn't the case. His sexuality remains undetermined in some games dependent on the actions of Shepard. You need to get out of the frame of mind that the Kaidan you experience when playing femShep is the same Kaidan I experience when playing maleShep.

C

[Athro]

 To put it another way - Kaidan isn't straight/gay/bi until you ask him if he is. Then his sexuality is defined by what the story requires. That isn't brainwashing, that's setting the story to fit whatever is required for the story. So if the story requires him to be bisexual - because he's the love interest in the story for the gay shep - then he has always been bisexual and it took Shepard to get him to admit his love for Shepard.

However, in a game with femShep, he will become heterosexual and has always been heterosexual in that storyline.

As a gay man, I can tell you right now, nothing about Kaidan's past as revealed in ME1 or ME2 requires him to be straight.

C

[MisterDyslexo]

Athro wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

we disagree on fluidity of sexual orientation, aliens aside (and to be honest, those romances are not something I see as particularly romantic and they are just barely plausible). Its as simple as that.

to me, to change sexual orientation to this degree? that would require brainwashing of some sort. hey, being brainwashed is pretty life changing.

The error you are making here is that you are presuming that Kaidan's sexuality is set in stone. As if it is a fixed part of the character. The thing is that Kaidan's sexuality never comes up in a game where the player is playing a male Shepard who isn't interested in Liara or Ashley. So in that "alternate universe" if you like - Kaidan might just be bisexual.

Just because he was straight in your storyline doesn't mean he is straight in every storyline. That is the beauty of a game where the player's decisions effect how the story unfolds. Until things are stated in the game, they aren't "fixed."

Nothing about Kaidan's history or story is contingent on him being straight. You're attributing fixed traits to a game where there is little fixed. As has already been stated in this thread - Shepard is gay, straight and bi depending on the player - so why can't the NPC's sexual preference be as fluid?

If Kaidan could have been propositioned in ME1 and explicitly rejected Shepard, then I'd agree with you. But that isn't the case. His sexuality remains undetermined in some games dependent on the actions of Shepard. You need to get out of the frame of mind that the Kaidan you experience when playing femShep is the same Kaidan I experience when playing maleShep.

C

Just to help make the point about PC interaction on the character, I'll use an example of how you can already do it to Kaidan. At the beginning of ME1, he's fairly diplomatically minded, and while he doesn't love and adore the other races, he holds nothing against them either. "They're just people", as he put into his own words. However, by the end, you could make him into the most xenophobic person on the ship. Not "xenophobic" like Ashley, where its cautious, but as being openly against aliens in general. Sexuality and xeno-tendency are two different things, but in theory the player should be able to interact with both.

[FataliTensei]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

we disagree on fluidity of sexual orientation, aliens aside (and to be honest, those romances are not something I see as particularly romantic and they are just barely plausible). Its as simple as that.

to me, to change sexual orientation to this degree? that would require brainwashing of some sort. hey, being brainwashed is pretty life changing.

So its somewhat reasonable/not too absurd to decide, after some soul-searching, to start having sex with the member of an entirely different species, but to do the same with a person of the same sex, it has to be brainwashing?

*sigh*

I throw in the towel on this one.

I threw in the towel before i even started >_<

[jeweledleah]

Every available LI in the game right now is flagged to be attracted to specific gender Shepard. in case of Asari - the flag includes both genders. in case of other characters - the flag is for opposite sex only. regardless of what you RP your personal Shepard as, it doesn't change the fact that npc characters, are the same through every game, contrary to what you're trying to prove, as you don't get to select their origins, or appearance, or role in a story, or how they behave. you can change some of their believes, but only within the parameters of their preset personalities. they don't exist in a vacuum of your personal play through.

you don't get to ask them, because they are flagged as unreceptive. But I've already said it multiple times so I just keep repeating myself for god knows what reason.

edited to add - when you have preset sexual preferences when it comes to your own species, changing said preference requires something extremely drastic...brain washing qualifies. 

Ryzaki - I didn't make you do anything, you made your own choice.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 13 février 2011 - 06:09 .

[Ryzaki]

FataliTensei wrote...

I threw in the towel before i even started >_<

I don't blame you. She managed to turn me off of Kaidan.  

I want Joker *makes childish grabby hands* JOKER! 

Hopefully I'll get Fenris  Dat voice. <3 

And yeah Shep totally brainwashed Garrus and Tali. 

I mean its impossible to fall in love despite your preferences. No way. 

You were brainwashed if you end up having intimate feelings for someone who is of a gender or a species you wouldn't normally consider. 

Love transcends boundaries? Pfft. No it doesn't. Why would anyone think something as stupid as that? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 février 2011 - 06:10 .

[jeweledleah]

love and sexual attraction are neither mutually inclusive nor mutually exclusive. you can love someone without wanting to sleep with them. you can sleep with someone without loving them, or even having sexual attraction to them. some times sex can be used as comfort, or release of tension, or expression of ultimate trust. sometimes its fanservice and is barely plausible. and sometimes you end up with http://tvtropes.org/...n/EveryoneIsGay because writers didn't think that "I'm gay/bi/straight" statement was necessary.

[Athro]

jeweledleah wrote...

Every available LI in the game right now is flagged to be attracted to specific gender Shepard. in case of Asari - the flag includes both genders. in case of other characters - the flag is for opposite sex only. regardless of what you RP your personal Shepard as, it doesn't change the fact that npc characters, are the same through every game, contrary to what you're trying to prove, as you don't get to select their origins, or appearance, or role in a story, or how they behave. you can change some of their believes, but only within the parameters of their preset personalities. they don't exist in a vacuum of your personal play through.

you don't get to ask them, because they are flagged as unreceptive. But I've already said it multiple times so I just keep repeating myself for god knows what reason.

edited to add - when you have preset sexual preferences when it comes to your own species, changing said preference requires something extremely drastic...brain washing qualifies. 

Ryzaki - I didn't make you do anything, you made your own choice.

Actually, being flagged in coding is not the same as genetics. The coding can be changed and it wont effect the story or the characters. Kaidan's sexuality is not preset. Just because the option doesn't open up in ME1 doesn't mean it can't in ME3. ME3 can read the Kaidan "flags" differently by seeing Kaidan as flagged as surviving, that Ashley was never romanced and Liara was flagged as "not interested." Reading that coding it can determine that maybe the player is gay and therefore chooses that Kaidan may be bisexual because the player is choosing that romance option.

The flags in the code are not declarations of sexuality - they are simply flags to help the game workout how the story should unfold.

You do get to select the NPC's role in the story - you choose where Kaidan and Ashley go on Virmire, you choose which of them lives or dies. You choose to save Wrex or not based on your decisions. As I explained, nothing in the history has stated what preference they have. From a storytelling perspective, Kaidan's sexuality only becomes fixed once it is shown on camera, so to speak. That doesn't mean that if he is straight in one version, he's straight in all of them.

The harsh reality is that they *do* exist in a vacuum. Until you speak to them, their histories are not fixed in stone. Bioware are free to change those histories in later instalments if it doesn't conflict with what has already been established. Kaidan or Ashley being straight has not been set in stone - making either of them bi will not contradict anything that has currently been established. As for why you couldn't romance them in the first game? There can be heaps of reasons that do not conflict with what showed up in the stories where they weren't romanced.

I understand that you hate the idea of him possibly being bi - but making him a bi option in ME3 isn't brainwashing him, it is establishing something in a story that hasn't been established yet for that particular story.

C

[Ryzaki]

Mmhmm. Impossible to fall in love (and want to be intimate) with someone because you aren't normally attracted to people like them is all I'm getting from that.

Wow. Love and sex aren't mutally exclusive? Really? I never knew that! ZOMG! 

@jewled: I didn't say you made me do anything. You couldn't anyway. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 février 2011 - 06:27 .

[jeweledleah]

no, I hate an idea of characters being ret-coned, and notice, I'm using characters - plural, you are the one that keeps bringing it back to Kaidan. regardless of whether you yourself explore conversation options or not - there are conversation options that are unavailable and some that are. they are the basis of the character, whether you discover that character or not.

you cannot change Kaidan to be an l3, or to change his class, or gender. you cannot make Ashley into anything other then a soldier and you cannot erase her past. you cannot make Wrex learn electronics or description, you cannot force Garrus use biotics or erase his history with C-sec, you cannot make Tally not be a quarian and have human DNA, you cannot have a child with liara and have that child be anything other then asari.

it doesn't work for ostrich to hide its head in a sand and disguise themselves, it doesn't work to close your ears and sing lalala and stop what's going on around you. just because you're not seeing it, doesn't mean its not there.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 13 février 2011 - 06:30 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Of course, because two people who have the burden of protecting the galaxy from the greatest evil ever known can't find comfort in each others arms because that would be fan-service, and not make any sense whatsoever.

[quote]jeweledleah wrote...

you cannot change Kaidan to be an l3
[/quote]
because the game clearly states that he is an L2, as fact. Never is his sexuality clearly stated. Assumed, maybe. Stated, never.

[quote]you cannot make Ashley into
anything other then a soldier and you cannot erase her past.
[/quote]
because these are all direct facts, stated clearly. She clearly was a soldier, who trained at wherever it was that she trained at. Her grandfather is clearly stated to be the general who surrendered the First Contact War/

[quote]you cannot
make Wrex learn electronics or description[/quote]
well, from a class standpoint, yes. The game clearly says "Krogan Battlemaster", which is equivalent to Vanguard. If in the plot somehow he became adept with electronics, it'd make sense. Its actual decelopment, and only retcon when you can go back and compare it to its first.

[quote]you cannot force Garrus use
biotics or erase his history with C-sec[/quote]
the nature of biotics is so that he wouldn't be able to harness them at his age, and the game obviously makes it a clear and vital point about him that he worked for C-Sec

[quote]you cannot make Tally not be a
quarian[/quote]
because she says "I'm a quarian"
[quote]and have human DNA[.quote]
because she's a quarian

[quote]you cannot have a child with liara and have
that child be anything other then asari.
[/quote]
Because that is asari reproduction, as clearly stated.

One of your weaknesses in the argument about Kaidan is the fact that it is never made clear his sexuality. If he said "I'm straight", and wasn't lying, this argument wouldn't be happening. NO point to it, clearly defined as striaght. But that never happened.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 13 février 2011 - 06:38 .

[jeweledleah]

why do they have to have sex to find comfort in each other exactly? they cannot possibly support each other without, just like they did before?

[Athro]

jeweledleah wrote...

love and sexual attraction are neither mutually inclusive nor mutually exclusive. you can love someone without wanting to sleep with them. you can sleep with someone without loving them, or even having sexual attraction to them. some times sex can be used as comfort, or release of tension, or expression of ultimate trust. sometimes its fanservice and is barely plausible. and sometimes you end up with http://tvtropes.org/...n/EveryoneIsGay because writers didn't think that "I'm gay/bi/straight" statement was necessary.

Um. That's all well and good, but it isn't really relevant to this discussion because it doesn't actually give any reason for why Kaidan can't be bisexual for a gay gamer. If anything, you're providing more evidence as to why there is no reason to not allow Kaidan as the gay romance option.

Furthermore, it doesn't refute the possibility of there being any gay romance in ME3. The point is that making Kaidan the m/m option is the one that requires the least amount of work on Bioware's part and also would allow for a more detailed relationship because the foundations are already there - it would be easier to write in a bi storyline with Kaidan than having to create an entirely new character with detailed history and a compelling storyline. (Although I'm sure there would be some writers at Bioware who would love the challenge. )

C.

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

why do they have to have sex to find comfort in each other exactly? they cannot possibly support each other without, just like they did before?

And why can't they choose to have sex to express that comfort? 

That said I wouldn't want Kaidan's creepy self to be bi anyways. There's just no compelling evidence that there's no way eva that he couldn't be. 

The guy doesn't even talk about his past partners for pete's sake. Who are you to say some of them weren't men? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 février 2011 - 06:34 .

[jeweledleah]

I give up. its pointless.

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

I give up. its pointless.

And by that I assume you mean you have no way of proving Kaidan's "straightness" one way or another right? 

Neither do I. Difference is I'm not insisting that he's straight. 

[Athro]

jeweledleah wrote...

no, I hate an idea of characters being ret-coned, and notice, I'm using characters - plural, you are the one that keeps bringing it back to Kaidan. regardless of whether you yourself explore conversation options or not - there are conversation options that are unavailable and some that are. they are the basis of the character, whether you discover that character or not.

you cannot change Kaidan to be an l3, or to change his class, or gender. you cannot make Ashley into anything other then a soldier and you cannot erase her past. you cannot make Wrex learn electronics or description, you cannot force Garrus use biotics or erase his history with C-sec, you cannot make Tally not be a quarian and have human DNA, you cannot have a child with liara and have that child be anything other then asari.

it doesn't work for ostrich to hide its head in a sand and disguise themselves, it doesn't work to close your ears and sing lalala and stop what's going on around you. just because you're not seeing it, doesn't mean its not there.

See, this is the problem right here. I'm bringing Kaidan up because he's a good example of how Bioware could do the m/m romance easily and with minimal commitment of resources. You are the one who is trying to argue as if he is a real person in real life and keep referring to a confusion of real philosophy and in game material not at all connected to this discussion.

But here's the thing - this is an argument about writing and coding. Kaidan isn't a real person - he's a fictional character. This means that the writers have the ability to adjust details of the character to suit some players without negating others.

One of the unique benefits of games like Mass Effect is that there isn't a single storyline or single universe. There are multiple tellings of the story which differ based on the player's decisions. In some versions the council lives, in some they die. In some versions Shepard is a nice paragon of good, in others he's a rebellious jerk. In some Wrex likes Shepard and listens to him. In others Wrex hates Shepard and is killed by Ashley.

What this means is that providing a m/m option with a character like Kaidan doesn't make Kaidan definitively bi. It makes Kaidan bisexual in the games where he is bisexual - while in other versions he's straight and loving femShep.

I don't think we can continue to have a reasonable discussion regarding this until you are willing to acknowledge that a) this isn't just about Kaidan but about pointing out how using him is easier for the writers and Bioware (less resources need to be committed, get to use an existing actor who they will be using anyway, easier to write for and thus requires less overall development time.); that Kaidan isn't a real person and thus his sexuality isn't a solid defined thing until it is explicitly defined; c) by nature of being a game, the story isn't a single entity and as such is more fluid - and that includes the characters within it.

C

[MisterDyslexo]

Nowhere does it say that Kaidan is straight.

Nowhere does it say that Kaidan is bisexual.

Logic can prove that Kaidan can't be gay. He can romance FemShep.

All those leave up room for interpretation, the basis of RPG.
You jeweledleah saw Kaidan as striaght.
Ryzaki saw him as bisexual.

I saw Kaidan as striaght personally. Doesn't mean that I'm going to insist my interpretation is definitely correct though, and that everybody else's is wrong. My view of Kaidan is different from Ryzaki's, based on sexuality, and I'm sure mine is different from your's jeweledleah, whether it be based on sexuality, or how we think he'd react to being asked a yes or no question. "Nope" is different from "no", no matter how little it seems.

Interpretation of character and how you build on that is the basis of RPG. Its how our minds work, and being to understand things. We see the characters and develop a mental blueprint for them, based on that. No two (well-written) characters will always be the exact same as somebody else's. If you got 100 mental blueprints of any character from ME or another well-written RPG, and had them answer a this-or-that philosophical question, every blueprint would answer differently. Not just the answer, but how it is answered, the feelings converyed, the reaction to the question, etc. No two are alike.
Your mental blueprint of Kaidan is unique, no matter whoever you are.

However, you feel threatened by how another person sees them, a different blueprint. You're reacting by trying to deny its existance, even though it shouldn't affect your own. If their idea of Kaidan affects your's, the way you Role-play:


Sorry I think everybody could've used a laugh.

But anyways, you're denying another person's train-of-thought by just saying no, as if it will affect you, even though, if you do it right, it won't.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 13 février 2011 - 06:53 .

[Sabariel]

Forget Kaidan. I want a bisexual Grunt

...What?

[Ryzaki]

Sabariel wrote...

Forget Kaidan. I want a bisexual Grunt

...What?

How would that even work? *is genuinenly curious* 

[Athro]

Sabariel wrote...

Forget Kaidan. I want a bisexual Grunt

...What?

Lol! That would be scary!

C

[MisterDyslexo]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Forget Kaidan. I want a bisexual Grunt

...What?

How would that even work? *is genuinenly curious* 

With Mordin aboard, anything's possible!