9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Saeran]

Ryzaki wrote...

And plus while ME2 did good DAO did *better*. And it actually had gay romances in it.

So very true.

Frankly I really want my MShep/Grunt romance. Make it happen! :3

[Sabariel]

Saeran wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And plus while ME2 did good DAO did *better*. And it actually had gay romances in it.

So very true.

Frankly I really want my MShep/Grunt romance. Make it happen! :3

Krogan love! *high five*

[MisterDyslexo]

I doubt that Bioware has to worry about its image on Fox News. Especially since EA has gotten a lot of heat from them in the past, of course without an apology. Mass Effect and Medal of Honor are the two more recent, they've grilled other series before, like I think they did the Sims once. EA probably could give two ****s less, and hopefully the next time one of their games is in the hot seat, the guy defending should mention how all of the other segments were received with enormous criticism and mockery.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 14 février 2011 - 01:20 .

[Athro]

Ryzaki wrote...

And plus while ME2 did good DAO did *better*. And it actually had gay romances in it.

I also suspect that a lot of the Zevran criticism is carried over from the ill-will that the lack of m/m romance in ME 1. I would have been very interested to see if the negative views of Zevran would have been quite as harsh if ME 1 hadn't dropped m/m romances...

C

[Maugrim]

Getting "crucified" by Faux News is plus for any game. Notice how they really only go after the popular games? It's a good sign.

[MisterDyslexo]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Getting "crucified" by Faux News is plus for any game. Notice how they really only go after the popular games? It's a good sign.

I don't remember them going after Postal 2 lol. I guess its true to an extent. Only AAA's, as some games that came out last year actually had you kill civilians. And then there was brutality in Splinter Cell, which had its demo, which a interrogation was present, available to pretty much anybody with an Xbox and internet connection. But, nope. Just MW2 (which I was surprised they weren't praising, because the civilians were Russians), the super-popular game, and Medal of Honor, which was expected to be super popular as well.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 14 février 2011 - 05:37 .

[Sahariel]

Ok dipping in and out of this thread, I have no problem with established characters being outed as gay/bi, but I'm beginning to see that this one issue is dominating the landscape in this thread somewhat. I'll state for the record there isn't anything that explicitly states anything that would preclude past LI's becoming interested in same sex relationships except that there isn't much that in my eyes foreshadows such as a possiblity (Liara and Jack being the exceptions to this).



However I'll make a prediction, I don't think we're going to see a S/S romance with Ashley, Kaiden, Garrus, Tali and probably not even for Jack. People can argue the right and wrong of it till they are blue in the face, but I suspect if such was going to be possible more would have been included in ME2. I think the best hope for S/S stories will come from new characters introduced in the final game.



That is not to say people who call for established characters to expand to include S/S relationships do not have a point, as they do and some have made the case very clearly and concisely, but it is an issue that as this thread illustrates causes quite serious division, and simply put the games are selling extremely will based on the design decisions they have made thus far, and from a financial standpoint it is understandable that Bioware will stick with the formula that has succeded for the ME franchise so far.



Again I think the last best hope for S/S inclusion in ME3 will be with new characters, in such a way that doesn't draw attention to the content from those who do not wish to see it.

[Michale_Jackson]

I doubt any at EA, Bioware or anyone in the gaming industry gives credence to anything reported by Fox News, their demographic that view them don't even play video games.



I do suspect Mass Effect 3 to be huge, and probably a big return to what we saw in the original Mass Effect but supremely better. I like to think of Mass Effect as the Super Mario Bros series. Super Mario Bros 3 was every bit of awesome because it was a revamped return to what made the game a hit. I suspect Bioware developers are aiming to do that.



As far as same sex romances go, it's still a possibility to happen, would be even more interesting if it can in the form of a DLC expansion for either of ME games, which would included expanded dialogs, extra missions, and more dialogs to have extra romances.

[Athro]

I certainly don't expect Kaidan/Ashley to be made S/S romances in ME3. My current more cynical view is that there wont be any M/M romances - but I live in hope.

I will say this outright - if there isn't any m/m romance in ME3 after all this controversy and clear demand for it (whether it is DLC or core game) - I doubt I will ever be willing to support Bioware again. It will depend on how well DA2 wins me over with its M/M romances, I guess. I'll be interested to see how I feel once ME3 comes out...

C

[Cootie]

Athro wrote...

I certainly don't expect Kaidan/Ashley to be made S/S romances in ME3. My current more cynical view is that there wont be any M/M romances - but I live in hope.

I will say this outright - if there isn't any m/m romance in ME3 after all this controversy and clear demand for it (whether it is DLC or core game) - I doubt I will ever be willing to support Bioware again. It will depend on how well DA2 wins me over with its M/M romances, I guess. I'll be interested to see how I feel once ME3 comes out...

C

The same goes for me, really. I'd be extremely let down after all of this fighting, if I'm allowed to be frank. And I'm one of those sorts that are difficult to win back once I've started grudging.
Which is kind of sad, considering Bioware's been making my favourite games.

I mean, the controversy is hard to miss, and I'd be surprised if they hadn't noticed the demand by now.
Which brings me to my next point:

Has there been any new announcement regarding the issue, besides the ones listed on the front page? Or have they kept quiet for this long?
Just wondering if there's anything new I've missed.

[Odin2040]

I stand for love, in any shape or form.

Frankly, I just missed more human/human relationships in the game. After Kaidan kinda dumped me I had no one to turn to with my female Shepard. Jacob stayed in the friend zone and every other option was of the lizard/reptilian variety (yucky!). So she just stayed alone through ME2.

So yes, I am in favor of s/s relationships, and also think we need more human/human relationships as well.

[DrBobcat]

Cootie wrote...

Athro wrote...

I certainly don't expect Kaidan/Ashley to be made S/S romances in ME3. My current more cynical view is that there wont be any M/M romances - but I live in hope.

I will say this outright - if there isn't any m/m romance in ME3 after all this controversy and clear demand for it (whether it is DLC or core game) - I doubt I will ever be willing to support Bioware again. It will depend on how well DA2 wins me over with its M/M romances, I guess. I'll be interested to see how I feel once ME3 comes out...

C

The same goes for me, really. I'd be extremely let down after all of this fighting, if I'm allowed to be frank. And I'm one of those sorts that are difficult to win back once I've started grudging.
Which is kind of sad, considering Bioware's been making my favourite games.

I mean, the controversy is hard to miss, and I'd be surprised if they hadn't noticed the demand by now.
Which brings me to my next point:

Has there been any new announcement regarding the issue, besides the ones listed on the front page? Or have they kept quiet for this long?
Just wondering if there's anything new I've missed.

I too have adopted this position. Disappointed won't come close to describing how I'll feel if ME3 doesn't have a m/m romance option. We've been pushing for this for a long, long time. Hell, this thread alone has been active for eight months. There's no way they could have missed it.

I'm crossing my fingers and biting my tongue, but Bioware may lose a fan (and a paying customer) if they maintain their current stance on the matter. To answer your question, Cootie, they haven't said a damn thing. Other than the infamous Hudson and Muzyka interviews, we've heard nothing in regards to this issue.

That's the worst part about it, in my opinion. Had they said they lacked the time or resources to implement the content, I would've grumbled and groaned, but I would have accepted it. Instead, they tried to tell me what my character's sexuality is. Instead, they tried to skirt around the fShep double-standard by claiming that the Asari aren't "really" female...

No, Bioware, I don't think you're homophobic. That would would be ridiculous to claim at this point. However, I do believe you've done yourself a disservice by remaining silent. What respect I had for you is beginning to fade.

Modifié par DrBobcat, 15 février 2011 - 03:14 .

[Ryzaki]

Nah don't blame BW. It's just the ME team. DA team has been pretty open with s/s options.

[DrBobcat]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nah don't blame BW. It's just the ME team. DA team has been pretty open with s/s options.

Indeed. That is what I was getting at when I said it would be "ridiculous" to call them homophobic. I'm just shocked with how differently the two teams operate. They may rally under the same banner, sure, but they couldn't be more dissimilar in their approach.

[Maugrim]

As you may come to realize I love me some quotes because like Ashley "I'm not a wordsmith" but I've always felt that Hanlon's razor was very descriptive of there handling of the s/s romance issue in regards to Mass Effect

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

As time goes on it's pretty clear thst on the marketing and pr fronts Bioware is not of the same quality of their games generally speaking and it does the whole company a great disservice. 

EDIT: Even with all that's happened I don't think Bioware, CHud or any of the others on the ME team are homophobic.  Like I said compared to most games Bioware and ME are more accepting than Castro street during a gay pride parade.  Just some things have been really bungled and not rectified, made up for or had an apology made.  The DA team and IMO from seeing the things he's written David Gaider are very proactive and informed.  And that's I think why we have s/s romances in DA and not ME.  Because they take steps to become aware and be concerned about there actions and how they are percieved they make sure to be inclusive it at all possible and not to just be 'activist'.

Hope that made sense...

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 15 février 2011 - 03:41 .

[Marta Rio]

DrBobcat wrote...
To answer your question, Cootie, they haven't said a damn thing. Other than the infamous Hudson and Muzyka interviews, we've heard nothing in regards to this issue.

Even though those interviews were very evasive, as far as I can tell they were as clear as they could be without outright stating that there will no M/M romance in ME3.  Especially the Muzyka comments about "pre-defined" characters.  It was Bioware's way of letting us down easily (although the optimist in me says that their evasiveness is a result of them not having decided 100% to exclude an M/M romance).

That's the worst part about it, in my opinion. Had they said they lacked the time or resources to implement the content, I would've grumbled and groaned, but I would have accepted it.

I think that if this was Bioware's explanation would have garnered even more anger from the community, honestly.  If I heard that, I'd be calling BS on it, and I bet a number of others would too (especially given the fact that they had the time and resources to implement M/M content in ME1 and still cut it).

Instead, they tried to tell me what my character's sexuality is. Instead, they tried to skirt around the fShep double-standard by claiming that the Asari aren't "really" female...

Yep, it's frustrating, and their explanations of why there are no "real" same-sex romances seems a bit hypocritical/illogical.  But honestly I'm not sure Bioware could have made any statement that would have appeased people who want same-sex romances in ME, other than stating that they decided to include them after all.  

Anyway, I'm off to go create a male Shepard that I roleplay as liking men, just on the off chance that Bioware decides to change their minds...

[DrBobcat]

Marta Rio wrote...

DrBobcat wrote...
That's the worst part about it, in my opinion. Had they said they lacked the time or resources to implement the content, I would've grumbled and groaned, but I would have accepted it.

I think that if this was Bioware's explanation would have garnered even more anger from the community, honestly.  If I heard that, I'd be calling BS on it, and I bet a number of others would too (especially given the fact that they had the time and resources to implement M/M content in ME1 and still cut it).

I'm just trying to give them some credit. On one hand, I understand that game development is expensive and that sometimes sacrifices must to be made (David Gaider has spoken about this at great length over at the DA2 forums). Yet, it must be noted that we went from three LIs in ME1 to a total of six in ME2. They could've easily dropped two of those, reappropriated their resources, and made two of the remaining LIs bisexual. Problem solved.

Same-sex issues aside, many players consider ME2's romances to be inferior. Not only were there fewer dialogue options, the sex scenes were toned down significantly. I think the dev team stretched themselves too thin and, in the process, screwed everyone over.

Marta Rio wrote...

DrBobcat wrote...
Instead, they tried to tell me what my
character's sexuality is. Instead, they tried to skirt around the fShep
double-standard by claiming that the Asari aren't "really" female...

Yep, it's frustrating, and their explanations of why there are no "real"
same-sex romances seems a bit hypocritical/illogical.  But honestly I'm
not sure Bioware could have made any statement that would have appeased
people who want same-sex romances in ME, other than stating that they
decided to include them after all.

I would have preferred brutal honesty over vacuous excuses. Then again, what do I know? I'm an idealist... 

[KawaiiKatie]

Marta Rio wrote...

DrBobcat wrote...
Instead, they tried to tell me what my character's sexuality is. Instead, they tried to skirt around the fShep double-standard by claiming that the Asari aren't "really" female...

Yep, it's frustrating, and their explanations of why there are no "real" same-sex romances seems a bit hypocritical/illogical.  But honestly I'm not sure Bioware could have made any statement that would have appeased people who want same-sex romances in ME, other than stating that they decided to include them after all.  

Anyway, I'm off to go create a male Shepard that I roleplay as liking men, just on the off chance that Bioware decides to change their minds...

I have a John Shepard who has gone through ME1 and ME2 completely single, because he is gay. Bioware can tell me that my character isn't gay, but he is. If he never meets another gay or bisexual man in the entirety of his travels, so be it. It's a small universe after all.

To me, the lack of gay and bisexual men only became suspect when a bisexual human female was introduced in ME2. I was honestly fine with the explanation that Shepard is "constrained" and "pre-defined" (in that the character Shepard was never meant to be homosexual) so long as it applied to both male and female Shepards. But it did not. Because female-Shepard can choose to pursue a human same-sex relationship, in-game evidence suggests that only male-Shepard was never meant to be gay.

As the quoted text above suggests, Bioware's silence on this issue is very frustrating. No, Bioware cannot make a simple statement that will "appease" everyone, but an honest, back-and-forth dialogue seems preferable to guesswork.

Currently, my biggest question is this:

Female-Shepard can pursue sexual relationships with both human men and women, while male-Shepard can only pursue females. Is there a specific reason for this, or reasons?

DrBobcat wrote...

I would have preferred brutal honesty over vacuous excuses. Then again, what do I know? I'm an idealist...

I agree with this statement! You fit my entire statement above into one simple sentence! Yes, Bioware, if a homosexual option for male-Shepard is not in any future plans, honesty and dialogue on this issue is what I, as a player, would like to see.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 15 février 2011 - 04:40 .

[MisterDyslexo]

I've seen/played RPGs where there were romantic interests for m/f only, or m/m & m/f only, or m/f and f/f, but at least they let your character say they're gay/a lesbian, even if you couldn't get involved with one (usually not to exclude, but just because its would go against certain characters that are gay/lesbian to get involved with you, especially in one instance when they were your cousin). Even then, its not so bad. But when you tell you that you're supposed to play an RPG, the most individualism-dependent game genre, hell probably in all of media, in "x" fashion, its not only clear hypocritical BS, but an insult to everybody who plays the game, by insulting their intelligence as a human being. Whether Bioware intended it to come off this way, I doubt, but thats the way it is.

[Athro]

 See, Obsidian were at least up front at the start with Alpha Protocol. They said that they had limited resources and time when working on the project, so they decided female or homosexual options were low on the list of priorites because they weren't the mainstay of the spy genre. I was disappointed, but accepted that explanation because they stressed that the game was about emulating a specific genre with certain known tropes.

Bioware's ME team, on the other hand, have vacillated between saying nothing and saying some really stupid and offensive things with no thought about what they were doing.

I would have much preferred "we're not going to have s/s relationships in Mass Effect because we didn't have time to develop them" over "Shepard is predetermined."

Because saying Shepard is predetermined is pure BS and Bioware knows it. They also knew that no matter how they try to sell it, Liara with femShep is a Lesbian relationship.

What is even more insulting is then choosing to say "we listened to the fans and gave Garrus and Tali as LIs."

Wait - LESS fans were crying for those relationships than the call for m/m romances. I should now, I've been following these forums since Mass Effect 1. And Bioware have only been consistent in so far as how they have atrociously managed the whole m/m romance controversy.

The critics are disappointed and unhappy, there are fans disappointed and unhappy, and Bioware's Mass Effect team have been silent or insulting. I don't think they're homophobic, but I do think that they are callous in how they have treated this. I also think that they were extremely stupid in not realising how much of an insult giving the Tali and Garrus LIs before a m/m relationship was.

Hence, I will be watching ME3 closely. The Dragon Age team have done a really good job of supporting their community and fans - and I feel the sales show it. They are professional, approachable and honest. Also, despite my reservations about Zevran, I felt they did a pretty good job with his relationship in the game - and I'm super excited to see DA2.

If only Casey Hudson and team could learn to be a bit more open about what they are planning - because I strongly believe that they have made some poor decisions along the way with how they have handled the community regarding this issue.

At the very least, I will refuse to buy anything that the ME team has had any hand in if they don't rectify this issue in ME3. As they say - third time's a charm. Honestly? If they did make Kaidan become a LI, it will totally 180 my opinion, because I personally feel that would be AWESOME for a storyline twist. But as I've said before, I doubt that this will be the case.

C

[Youknow]

Wow, I didn't realize that this was such a serious issue to people. It was an interesting read to say the very least. I suppose I don't show enough care for the series, because I don't think I'd ever type up that much for anything story related, but more power to you for doing so. And now this topic has me kinda just thinking about the oddities of the romances in this series. I mean, actually thinking about how weird it is overall.

I suppose I can understand your feelings on the matter. If the characters are supposed to be "predefined" with some variations, then FemShep is clearly the superior character to MaleShep. Which is surprising, because you'd think that the poster gender would have more options. She has more options, and thus can be better shaped than MaleSheps. For instance, Jacob's romance for instance, let's FemShep vent for awhile. We get to actually shape her mental psyche. None of MaleShep's dialogue options even go that far.  MaleShep gets no gay relationships, while FemShep gets to be in 2 lesbian relationships and 4 sorta flings; Liara and Kelly for the relationships, and Samara (who rejects you), Morinth (who kills you), and Jack (who denies you as well). and the consort for the fling/sex whatever the heck it was. While the Asari are definitely supposed to be genderless, they appear as though they are female, and thus if a female were to pursue any form of relationship with her from a human-centric mindset, they would be initiating one with a female. So regardless of whether the Asari are female or not, they are "female enough" for a human and any other species around. Even the dialogue within the game seems to agree with this as well. As a result, the conclusion is that MaleSheps simply can't be developed as much as FemSheps simply because he has invisible and arbitrary rules against him that FemShep is immune to.

On another note, MaleShep just doesn't seem to have the options to initiate love with any of the males around. Or even say they look good outside of Jacob (just an offhand comment that he's still in top shape). Simply because... I don't know. Apparently he's too much of a wuss. But not FemShep. She's apparently proud of herself. The more I think of it, why is it that MaleShep is made out to be such a romantic wuss? Jack has to basically tell her flat out "I don't want you." Before the idea romance truly ends, and Tali's possible romance with FemShep just kinda disappears. I mean, was there any reason that? Why is this even done? To tease fans of FemShep and Tali? Why does MaleShep feel compelled to auto-answer Jacob into "destroy romance" option, or simply not have the ability to want to help Garrus blow off some steam? It's clear that even with FemShep that it's not really "romance" so much as it is hardcore loving. It's not unitl the actual final scene that it even possibly blossoms into romance. I'd rather Sheperd just not care about romance as a predefined trait if that's going to be done.

Personally, I think FemShep is just better in the romance department than MaleShep in general, so judging by appearances, I can see why people might even want a gay romance even more based off of aesthetics. I mean, people can talk about how odd the aliens are for FemShep, but let's be honest, looking at FemShep, she's definitely got the more interesting and wild looking choices. Ignoring the non-paramour achievements, MaleShep has these choices of 2 aliens and 3 caucasian women. FemShep has 3 aliens (one being female-like), 1 negroid and 1 asian. MaleShep's choices are bland. If giving him some homosexual partners means that he can date more variety, more power to him. Plus, I'm not seeing why MaleShep can't man up and break the rules like FemShep can. It's weird, because the rules are apparently MaleShep = exclusively straight. FemShep = Bisexual, but only at the whims of the writers, and in this case, FemShep's defined character is inconsistent.

I'm not going to rant too long, because that'd be crazy though.

[ElitePinecone]

@KawaiiKatie: I agree with practically your entire post. An honest back-and-forth dialogue (or even a flat-out "we don't have the resources") is far preferable to this interminable limbo where fans who would appreciate s/s romances maintain some sort of optimism when every sign points to a disappointing outcome.



David Gaider has been amazing in his interaction with fans on the DAO/DA2 forums, and his posts on the reasoning behind the inclusion or otherwise of s/s romances make for fantastic reading.



@YouKnow: I found femShep a 'stronger' character in general, perhaps it was the power of Hale's voice acting but MShep seemed remarkably clueless in his romances. I don't necessarily think the existing options are especially bland, but more variety and diversity in the squadmates is definitely a good thing.

[Siansonea]

I find FemShep to be superior in a lot of ways, actually, but maybe it's because I'm a woman and I identify more with the female version of the protagonist. And while we might lament how sucky FemSheps' romantic choices are in ME2, the truth is ManShep's choices ain't all that great either. Regardless of who Shepard ends up with in ME2 (other than Liara or Kaidan/Ashley), Shepard is Caught In A Bad Romance. Miranda: decent-ish, but it's really just a hookup. Jack: decent-ish, but it all happens so fast, and boy did she go from tirades to tears quick. Tali: She all but scrawls "T'ZvN&CS4EVR" on her omni-tool, talk about juvenile-seeming. Garrus: another hookup, with only a headbump to give it weight. Jacob: the wriiiiiting, but hey, nice abs. Thane: UGH! cry cry cry let's have sex Siha cry cry cry. Samara's wistful "another life" refusal and Mordin's "you're not the first to be interested in me Shepard" speeches beat out all the 'full' romances by a country mile.



So yeah, if this is the caliber of romance subplots we can expect in ME3, how about instead channeling those resources into the various NPCs just giving Shep the brush-off.

[Katsaurs]

I've been following this thread and the ones that were previously closed down since they started, occasionally popping up now and then to throw in support or comments when I had the urge to. While I play an exclusive fem!shep and feel fortunate that there is at least one full option I can't help but feel the glaring lack of M/M in both ME games has really put a damper on the enjoyability of the game.

I just had a thought recently though; we're aware of the evasive comments made about Male!Shep being predefined and thusly being unable to pursue an M/M romance when compared to the Grey Warden. I won't go into how backwards that is considering Fem!Shep is a huge factor and the limited, vague excuses given there after were silly at the very least. But now I'm wondering what Bioware's stance is now that Hawke's on the scene.

In my eyes, he/she could now be considred 'predefined' in the words of Bioware because lets face it, what is the difference between Hawke and Shepard? Both are now voiced, both have a preset race (as in, can't be an elf or dwarf), you can choose their gender, their job role and because they're voiced they're limited to what they can say/react to. Besides Hawke being in the fantasy medieval era - which I would've thought would've been more narrow minded in terms of sexuality- and Shepard being in the future, I can't diffrenciate between the two.

And yet Hawke in direct comparison, as 'predefined' as he/she is, can happily pursue an m/m or f/f romance.

And Shepard can do diddly squat- I loosely throw in fem!shep too there seeing as Kelly wasn't a full fledged option (I dunno, she felt a bit...shallow, imo) and Liara, as awesome as she is, is continuously debunked as not being a proper f/f option.

I don't get it, to me it feels like the spin of 'predefined character = no m/m f/f for you' has been rendered completely moot because of Hawke.

I'm aware that two different teams work on each IP but damn, I'd have thought they'd at least wave under the same banner in terms of equality on that front

Modifié par Katsaurs, 15 février 2011 - 09:25 .

[catabuca]

This is what I wrote yesterday in the FFTL group:

David Gaider has made a number of interesting posts recently on including s/s content in games. While he says he can't speak for the ME team, he says it essentially comes down to a question of resources. Now, I don't think anyone would deny that the allocation of resources is an important factor when creating any kind of content, the problem is when opinions over what is worthy of having resources spent on it differ.

Gaider said that when it comes down to including content like s/s options, it relies on someone or several people on the team actively asking for that content. The DA team has someone for whom that content is important; the ME team probably, the implication is, does not. That isn't to say the team would necessarily be against including that content, but unless there is a s/s champion, so to speak, other things get priority.

Now, I can understand Gaider's explanation, and I can also almost accept the logic behind it. But let's be clear, we're not just talking about someone on the team who thinks it's important to have vehicle sections, or an extra hub world, or collapsible helmets; we're talking about something that is currently creating an unfair imbalance in the game as it is, and an imbalance that relates directly to a real-world issue of discrimination and equality. It's an imbalance because fShep can identify as lesbian and choose a romance appropriate to that identification. mShep cannot. So we're not talking about including something that isn't already there, we're talking about removing the discrimination by expanding on something that is already there. And, of course, stopping the offensive bull of saying Liara isn't female.

(And if Liara isn't female, does that mean mShep's relationship with her isn't a straight relationship? Er, I think CHud et al would say it was ... so ...)