Reading on in this thread I'm getting disheartened by the comments from people who are taking this "Give me what I want Bioware, or I'm never buying a Bioware title game again!!". It is at the end of the day a piece of entertainment, it's also not particularly high brow. It may be a very well scripted sci-fi action piece, but it's an adventure, not a character driven narrative where things like sexuality are big themes in the story.
I get that this lack of S/S romance options angers the community, and that is in part because it touches upon real world discrimination and intolerance, but you know what? It's not Bioware's fault that sometimes the world is intolerant, and want to know something else? It is not thier responsiblity to fix it either. As a company they have done more than perhaps any other for the inclusion of S/S romances in other games, and for that they deserve respect.
The fact that they have a franchise that doesn't include them, is thier call to make and regrettable to many as that may be isn't the end of the world. I'll get the game because it is a good example of an excellent game. I suspect there is also a component that for some people who have argued the cause on here, and gotten into some quite heated debates would look on ME3 including S/S romances, especially male ones as complete vindication for thier position on this thread (and those like it). Again this is not Bioware's fault that you are invested in an online debate.
The thing that most saddens me is I see only a minority of posts aiming to bring the disparate parts of the community together through compromise. Someone says "I should be able to romance Kaiden" someone else "no you can't he's straight" responded by "he could be bi" rinse, repeat over and over. Rather than "I should be able to romance Kaiden" "No you can't he's straight" "well ok what form of S/S relationship would you be comfortable seeing in the game?" "Oh I don't know, does it really matter?" "yes it really matters to me that my male shep has a romancable male in his game" "yeah me too" x1000 "Oh I didn't realise it mattered that much to you, maybe a couple of new characters".....
Fight for the Love *Achievement Unlocked*
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#4327
Posté 15 février 2011 - 03:41
catabuca
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@Sahariel
I know it's easy to skip over things when there are great walls of text everywhere, so I'll mention this again: this thread has never been a crusade to demand s/s content where none exists. Most of the fuel for discussion has come from the simple and contradictory fact that fShep can identify as gay and engage in a lesbian relationship, but mShep cannot engage in a gay relationship. Coupled with the problematic responses the community has received when putting questions as to why this is the case to members of the ME team, it's made many of us scratch our heads, get confused, and yes, frustrated and angry at times. If fShep had never had that option either, and if the team had been upfront about why, well I'm certain there would still have been threads hoping that it would be included in future games, but the anger and frustration would likely have not been as acute. So this isn't anger that the franchise doesn't include the option at all, but anger that it sort of includes it for one gender but not for the other.
And on the subject of repeating discussions, debates or arguments over and over ... that's what happens on fan forums, regardless of the subject. Don't like it, don't read it.
I know it's easy to skip over things when there are great walls of text everywhere, so I'll mention this again: this thread has never been a crusade to demand s/s content where none exists. Most of the fuel for discussion has come from the simple and contradictory fact that fShep can identify as gay and engage in a lesbian relationship, but mShep cannot engage in a gay relationship. Coupled with the problematic responses the community has received when putting questions as to why this is the case to members of the ME team, it's made many of us scratch our heads, get confused, and yes, frustrated and angry at times. If fShep had never had that option either, and if the team had been upfront about why, well I'm certain there would still have been threads hoping that it would be included in future games, but the anger and frustration would likely have not been as acute. So this isn't anger that the franchise doesn't include the option at all, but anger that it sort of includes it for one gender but not for the other.
And on the subject of repeating discussions, debates or arguments over and over ... that's what happens on fan forums, regardless of the subject. Don't like it, don't read it.
#4328
Posté 15 février 2011 - 03:57
catabuca
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@Sahariel
I may have been a little brusque with the 'don't like it, don't read it' comment. I apologise.
I understand your point about trying to reach consensus. The problem is, even within a community whose goal is roughly the same, there are, as you tentatively suggest, disparate sections of that community who all want different things. The discussions that get repeated really are no different than those in other threads where people want different things.
But on the subject of Kaidan specifically, the majority of the arguments have come about when people come into the thread and try to antagonise supporters. Again, no one here (to my knowledge) has ever stated 'I should be able to romance Kaidan, dammit BW are evil for not letting me', only 'I wish I could romance Kaidan, and here are the reasons why I believe it could be realistically implemented'. The arguments with those who say 'but he's straight' haven't been about demanding he be opened up as a bi LI, but have been challenging a more abstract point about the nature of characters being set in stone. Futile? Perhaps. But some people obviously think it's a debate worth having. And like the 'asari aren't female/yes they are' debate, or the 'omg, all you people won't be happy until everyone is bi' argument, this is something that will come up time and time again as new people come by the thread to make their voices heard.
I may have been a little brusque with the 'don't like it, don't read it' comment. I apologise.
I understand your point about trying to reach consensus. The problem is, even within a community whose goal is roughly the same, there are, as you tentatively suggest, disparate sections of that community who all want different things. The discussions that get repeated really are no different than those in other threads where people want different things.
But on the subject of Kaidan specifically, the majority of the arguments have come about when people come into the thread and try to antagonise supporters. Again, no one here (to my knowledge) has ever stated 'I should be able to romance Kaidan, dammit BW are evil for not letting me', only 'I wish I could romance Kaidan, and here are the reasons why I believe it could be realistically implemented'. The arguments with those who say 'but he's straight' haven't been about demanding he be opened up as a bi LI, but have been challenging a more abstract point about the nature of characters being set in stone. Futile? Perhaps. But some people obviously think it's a debate worth having. And like the 'asari aren't female/yes they are' debate, or the 'omg, all you people won't be happy until everyone is bi' argument, this is something that will come up time and time again as new people come by the thread to make their voices heard.
#4329
Posté 15 février 2011 - 04:05
catabuca
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This thread has probably got more walls of text than any other I've read on BSN XD
#4330
Posté 15 février 2011 - 05:10
Siansonea
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Our walls of text invariably have graffiti on them. Dang kids and their Gangster Wrap music. *waves cane in the air*
#4331
Posté 15 février 2011 - 05:35
Athro
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@Sahariel
The point is that if the ME team aren't willing to cater to their audience, then we can vote in the way consumer's are able to vote. With our wallets. You say this is entertainment, well that's the whole point. Some of us face discrimination daily for being gay - in ways that most heterosexual people don't even notice. Why should we have to face it in our entertainment as well if we have an outlet to say to the developers "what about us?"
Saying essentially "that's the way things are sometimes" is a cop out. If we were to just shrug and accept it, then things will never change and we'll be having these same issues ten years down the line.
It may not be a big issue for you, but it is a big issue for us because BW is one of the only companies that tends to cater for their gay audience as well.
Furthermore, people aren't demanding Kaidan/Ashley - they are suggesting ways that would fit with the existing storyline. It has been said several times already either in ME3 or through a DLC. New character or existing character. Nobody is blocking off discussion here, and saying that we will not buy any future BW product by the team that worked on ME is a fair statement to make to get across how serious this issue is to us. Because it isn't as serious to BW - which is fair enough, they have a lot of things to worry about.
So they need us to tell them if it is something they should make one of their priorities when thinking about LI's in ME.
It may be disheartening to see people not wanting to financially support your favourite company, but think about how disheartening it is to be reminded that you're not fully accepted every time you play a game to get away from the real world and be entertained instead? If you could fight to try to change that even in a little way with one company and one game, wouldn't you do that?
C
The point is that if the ME team aren't willing to cater to their audience, then we can vote in the way consumer's are able to vote. With our wallets. You say this is entertainment, well that's the whole point. Some of us face discrimination daily for being gay - in ways that most heterosexual people don't even notice. Why should we have to face it in our entertainment as well if we have an outlet to say to the developers "what about us?"
Saying essentially "that's the way things are sometimes" is a cop out. If we were to just shrug and accept it, then things will never change and we'll be having these same issues ten years down the line.
It may not be a big issue for you, but it is a big issue for us because BW is one of the only companies that tends to cater for their gay audience as well.
Furthermore, people aren't demanding Kaidan/Ashley - they are suggesting ways that would fit with the existing storyline. It has been said several times already either in ME3 or through a DLC. New character or existing character. Nobody is blocking off discussion here, and saying that we will not buy any future BW product by the team that worked on ME is a fair statement to make to get across how serious this issue is to us. Because it isn't as serious to BW - which is fair enough, they have a lot of things to worry about.
So they need us to tell them if it is something they should make one of their priorities when thinking about LI's in ME.
It may be disheartening to see people not wanting to financially support your favourite company, but think about how disheartening it is to be reminded that you're not fully accepted every time you play a game to get away from the real world and be entertained instead? If you could fight to try to change that even in a little way with one company and one game, wouldn't you do that?
C
#4332
Posté 15 février 2011 - 05:43
Athro
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@Sahariel
To put it another way, there is no "it's just a game/tv show/book..."
Change and tolerance doesn't actually come from sweeping political actions. It comes from small shifts in perception. Little changes. The small victories - like gay marriages in The Sims, or positive gay protagonists on a television show. Or when BW is convinced by fans to include a m/m romance in their video game.
To you it's just a low brow piece of entertainment. But when playing an RPG and I can't play a gay character, that's much more cutting than that. It doesn't even have to be a huge shift. New Vegas had a gay option - confirmed bachelor. Sticking to the 50s theme, nobody outright says they are gay, but all the gay characters use humorous innuendo and dialogue to flirt with a player who took confirmed bachelor, and the player gets the ability to flirt with them.
It's a small thing, no actual onscreen romance - but it was a big deal for players like me because it allowed us to say we were playing a gay character and have the game cater to that.
C
To put it another way, there is no "it's just a game/tv show/book..."
Change and tolerance doesn't actually come from sweeping political actions. It comes from small shifts in perception. Little changes. The small victories - like gay marriages in The Sims, or positive gay protagonists on a television show. Or when BW is convinced by fans to include a m/m romance in their video game.
To you it's just a low brow piece of entertainment. But when playing an RPG and I can't play a gay character, that's much more cutting than that. It doesn't even have to be a huge shift. New Vegas had a gay option - confirmed bachelor. Sticking to the 50s theme, nobody outright says they are gay, but all the gay characters use humorous innuendo and dialogue to flirt with a player who took confirmed bachelor, and the player gets the ability to flirt with them.
It's a small thing, no actual onscreen romance - but it was a big deal for players like me because it allowed us to say we were playing a gay character and have the game cater to that.
C
#4333
Posté 15 février 2011 - 10:17
Athro
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I was thinking about this m/m romance thing in my "inpsiration room" this morning - i.e. the shower - and suddenly had a bit of an epiphany of what would be an AWESOME way for Bioware to do this as more than just an m/m romance.
We know that there is one more DLC coming before ME3 and rumour has it that it culminates with the arrival of the Reapers.
What if - and this is purely conjecture here - they follow on from Lair of the Shadowbroker by making the next DLC focus on the survivor of Virmire. (Ashley/Kaidan)
Now what if the story is about someone working to help the Reapers gain access to the galaxy in some other route. Maybe a return to Ilos, battles with reaper agents etc. Now what if Ash/Kaidan are the ones who raise the alarm with Shep - so the whole DLC has them working together and for those f/m and m/f romances - they get to develop that romantic storyline in much the same way Lair did for Liara. But this time, Bioware also work in a f/f and m/m version based on the fact that Ash/Kaidan is conflicted because femShep/maleShep rescued them when they thought s/he was in love with the person who died. Over the course of the adventure the player can build on that storyline which culminates after the big boss fight with a scene where Ash/Kaidan declares that they have feelings for Shep and as they go in for the kiss...
Joker: Commander! There have been multiple reports of... of... Reapers! Shepard! The Reapers are here!
End of the adventure and "To be continued in Mass Effect 3!"
The benefit of this is a) it would be an awesome piece of cinematic storytelling to not really have a romance but just the teasing beginning of a possible one,
helps deepen the history of Ash/Kaidan and the consequences of saving them on Virmire and c) makes it extremely difficult for those who don't want a f/f or m/m relationship to accidently initiate one, even in ME3 - because you would need to have saved Ash/Kaidan and then played the DLC to get the flags in the coding for this kind of storyline to unfold.
It would also make the romance in ME3 have a lot more drama as it would be interrupted by events can could have a much more involved storyline - which I feel is what they have set up with Liara already to have the relationship have more to it than just getting lucky in Shep's cabin.
It seems to me a really good way to address the issue and also make Mass Effect that much more awesome regarding the consequences of decisions.
To stress - it isn't because I feel that Ash/Kaidan *must* be made bi. I just think that from a writing and development position, it has the best drama and opportunity. It also allows Bioware to put paid to the complaints about ME 1 and 2, because it gives players a reason to go back and play through the whole line.
C.
We know that there is one more DLC coming before ME3 and rumour has it that it culminates with the arrival of the Reapers.
What if - and this is purely conjecture here - they follow on from Lair of the Shadowbroker by making the next DLC focus on the survivor of Virmire. (Ashley/Kaidan)
Now what if the story is about someone working to help the Reapers gain access to the galaxy in some other route. Maybe a return to Ilos, battles with reaper agents etc. Now what if Ash/Kaidan are the ones who raise the alarm with Shep - so the whole DLC has them working together and for those f/m and m/f romances - they get to develop that romantic storyline in much the same way Lair did for Liara. But this time, Bioware also work in a f/f and m/m version based on the fact that Ash/Kaidan is conflicted because femShep/maleShep rescued them when they thought s/he was in love with the person who died. Over the course of the adventure the player can build on that storyline which culminates after the big boss fight with a scene where Ash/Kaidan declares that they have feelings for Shep and as they go in for the kiss...
Joker: Commander! There have been multiple reports of... of... Reapers! Shepard! The Reapers are here!
End of the adventure and "To be continued in Mass Effect 3!"
The benefit of this is a) it would be an awesome piece of cinematic storytelling to not really have a romance but just the teasing beginning of a possible one,
helps deepen the history of Ash/Kaidan and the consequences of saving them on Virmire and c) makes it extremely difficult for those who don't want a f/f or m/m relationship to accidently initiate one, even in ME3 - because you would need to have saved Ash/Kaidan and then played the DLC to get the flags in the coding for this kind of storyline to unfold.It would also make the romance in ME3 have a lot more drama as it would be interrupted by events can could have a much more involved storyline - which I feel is what they have set up with Liara already to have the relationship have more to it than just getting lucky in Shep's cabin.
It seems to me a really good way to address the issue and also make Mass Effect that much more awesome regarding the consequences of decisions.
To stress - it isn't because I feel that Ash/Kaidan *must* be made bi. I just think that from a writing and development position, it has the best drama and opportunity. It also allows Bioware to put paid to the complaints about ME 1 and 2, because it gives players a reason to go back and play through the whole line.
C.
#4334
Posté 15 février 2011 - 10:37
catabuca
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@Athro -- that's an idea we've played with before (not to take away from your awesome idea ... for it is awesome). I'd absolutely love to see that. Of course, here comes the Pessimist Polly moment: the thing about it being really hard to initiate, because you'd have had to have saved K/A on Virmire, then bought the DLC, then gone through the process of initiating a romance with them in the DLC ... that's all well and good, but that really does leave such a small minority of players who would end up specifically playing it that way that it ends up being exactly the same case in ME3 as it is now: 'we don't have the resources to put s/s relationships in the game when it's such a tiny minority of people who would see them'. If the relationships require the DLC to be played in order to initiate, then that's even more the case ... because not everyone buys DLC.
I'm not completely knocking the idea, because I know I've suggested the same myself way back when, it's just that I've got my 'pessimist' (some may say 'realist') hat on tonight. More's the pity.
I'm not completely knocking the idea, because I know I've suggested the same myself way back when, it's just that I've got my 'pessimist' (some may say 'realist') hat on tonight. More's the pity.
#4335
Posté 15 février 2011 - 10:40
catabuca
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In somewhat related news, but also mildly off-topic: I've finished sketching out how the relationship between Sheploo and Kaidan will play out in my trilogy-spanning fic. (I am NOT looking forward to writing ANY of the ME2 story D:)
All, that is, up to just after the suicide mission in ME2.
Damn you BioWare! I want to know what happens in the DLC and ME3 so I can plan my story accordingly *shakes fist*
All, that is, up to just after the suicide mission in ME2.
Damn you BioWare! I want to know what happens in the DLC and ME3 so I can plan my story accordingly *shakes fist*
#4336
Posté 15 février 2011 - 10:51
Athro
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catabuca wrote...
@Athro -- that's an idea we've played with before (not to take away from your awesome idea ... for it is awesome). I'd absolutely love to see that. Of course, here comes the Pessimist Polly moment: the thing about it being really hard to initiate, because you'd have had to have saved K/A on Virmire, then bought the DLC, then gone through the process of initiating a romance with them in the DLC ... that's all well and good, but that really does leave such a small minority of players who would end up specifically playing it that way that it ends up being exactly the same case in ME3 as it is now: 'we don't have the resources to put s/s relationships in the game when it's such a tiny minority of people who would see them'. If the relationships require the DLC to be played in order to initiate, then that's even more the case ... because not everyone buys DLC.
I'm not completely knocking the idea, because I know I've suggested the same myself way back when, it's just that I've got my 'pessimist' (some may say 'realist') hat on tonight. More's the pity.
Actually you're missing quite a bit here.
A) Everyone who plays Mass Effect saves either Ashley or Kaidan.
A good number of those straight players romanced the survivor if they could.C) It takes less resources to record the dialogue to include a gender change if the dialogue is kept generic. You've already got the actor in the voice studio, and you have already created the assets for the scene - with decent writing it's an easy one to do.
D) Ash/Kaidan are coming back anyway, they are a known variable which are now well and truly fixed for straight players in their games that they can't accidently trigger the gay romance. This known variable also makes it easy to plan around in comparison to introducing a new character in ME3.
The key thing is that Bioware know that every game is going to have an Ash or a Kaidan alive. If a player has already romanced Liara/Tali/Miranda - then that can lock off the romance option as well.
Given that it is a DLC, which means the player has to buy it as well - that is more reason to add it there. Afterall, a lot of people have been suggesting that the s/s options be a DLC. This is killing two birds with one stone, effectively.
I agree that it is unlikely - but I don't think it is as unlikely as you are making it out to be.
I'd be very impressed with Bioware if they did take that route though.
C
#4337
Posté 15 février 2011 - 10:57
catabuca
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I honestly think if there were going to include an m/m option in 3 (and a new f/f, because I feel like they'd need to have a new one of each if they were going to do it at all), they'll stick to the KISS principle (keep it simple, stupid). They won't want to overcomplicate matters by making it ridiculously difficult to ever access the content (why capitulate to us rabid fans and do the extra work to include it if hardly anyone would get to see it?), or by adding in all sorts of new mechanisms to either 'make it less icky for the haters' (like obscure flags you have to some how, well, flag, or toggles, or whatever) or treat it in any way different from the other o/s relationships. It simply isn't BioWare's way (nor should it be) to treat s/s relationships (when they do exist in a game) as somehow 'other' to o/s relationships. If there were in the game, they would be accessible in the same way as all relationships.
So this brings us back, really, to the logical conclusion that if there are going to be any, it will be with new characters, and treated like any other new romance. I still personally believe it is eminently do-able to allow Ash and Kaidan to be those 'new characters', since, for many ME3 players (and ME2 players) they will be new characters anyway (the likelihood is that there will be even more ME3 players who have never played 1 than there are ME2 players who haven't). And for those who are familiar with K/A, well they can make their minds up during the course of the game whether they wanted to romance them just as they would any other new character, only with some extra dialogue relating to their having worked together previously that perhaps takes into consideration the player's choices that have carried over from imported games. K/A could work that way as new straight and gay options for new and old players alike.
Still, don't think that would happen, think it would be completely new characters, but just speculating that K/A could essentially be those 'new' characters.
Again, wishful thinking.
So this brings us back, really, to the logical conclusion that if there are going to be any, it will be with new characters, and treated like any other new romance. I still personally believe it is eminently do-able to allow Ash and Kaidan to be those 'new characters', since, for many ME3 players (and ME2 players) they will be new characters anyway (the likelihood is that there will be even more ME3 players who have never played 1 than there are ME2 players who haven't). And for those who are familiar with K/A, well they can make their minds up during the course of the game whether they wanted to romance them just as they would any other new character, only with some extra dialogue relating to their having worked together previously that perhaps takes into consideration the player's choices that have carried over from imported games. K/A could work that way as new straight and gay options for new and old players alike.
Still, don't think that would happen, think it would be completely new characters, but just speculating that K/A could essentially be those 'new' characters.
Again, wishful thinking.
#4338
Posté 15 février 2011 - 11:02
catabuca
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@Athro -- I think the difference between our approaches is merely the DLC route. Simply because it requires people to buy it in order to ever get a s/s relationship in ME3, and apart from anything else I think that they wouldn't want to send that out as a message: 'you have to pay to be gay'. If you see what I mean. I just think it would work better if it was something that could be initiated in ME3 itself, as a normal romance like any other, rather than something that 'had to be kept behind the closed doors of DLC'.
I know I really, really want this last piece of DLC to be VS DLC. And I also know that if it is, it will likely include some reference to the romance. I just honestly don't think this is how they would introduce s/s into the trilogy.
I could be wrong. I just can't see it.
I know I really, really want this last piece of DLC to be VS DLC. And I also know that if it is, it will likely include some reference to the romance. I just honestly don't think this is how they would introduce s/s into the trilogy.
I could be wrong. I just can't see it.
#4339
Posté 16 février 2011 - 12:28
FataliTensei
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catabuca wrote...
Still, don't think that would happen, think it would be completely new characters, but just speculating that K/A could essentially be those 'new' characters.
Again, wishful thinking.
I think that is there is a new character for M/M that the logical choice would be Hendel Mitra from the Ascencion book, he's already a character in the ME universe that is gay they don't have to come up with anyone new and integrating him into the story would be relatively easy as Shepard already has acess to the Migrant Fleet in ME2. I personally would be thrilled if Hendel was the S/S LI in ME3, I'd get a kickass character who would be useful in battle and an interesting LI to say the least.
#4340
Posté 16 février 2011 - 01:41
Z-Dragon
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Dorkly did a survey of romances in Mass Effect 2
42% romanced Miranda
26% romanced Tali
6% romanced Jack
1% romanced Jacob
5% romanced Garrus
2% romanced Thane
4% romanced Kelly
2% romanced Samara
1% romanced Morinth
13% did not romance anyone
www.dorkly.com/article/10962/love-amp-videogames-a-valentines-day-infographic
42% romanced Miranda
26% romanced Tali
6% romanced Jack
1% romanced Jacob
5% romanced Garrus
2% romanced Thane
4% romanced Kelly
2% romanced Samara
1% romanced Morinth
13% did not romance anyone
www.dorkly.com/article/10962/love-amp-videogames-a-valentines-day-infographic
Modifié par Z-Dragon, 16 février 2011 - 01:42 .
#4341
Posté 16 février 2011 - 01:56
ElitePinecone
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That's... interesting.
Fits with what we know about approximately 80% of players using a male Shepard.
The obvious conclusion to draw is that the 13% who didn't romance anybody did so because there were no options for them, but I'd be wary of this assumption. Presumably some people couldn't be bothered with the romance dialogue, didn't like any of the options, wanted to be faithful to their ME romance or just never found talked to their squadmates on the Normandy.
I'm also incredibly surprised that Jacob even made 1% of the romances. Those poor, poor people.
Edit: Why do I have huge gaps between paragraphs?
Fits with what we know about approximately 80% of players using a male Shepard.
The obvious conclusion to draw is that the 13% who didn't romance anybody did so because there were no options for them, but I'd be wary of this assumption. Presumably some people couldn't be bothered with the romance dialogue, didn't like any of the options, wanted to be faithful to their ME romance or just never found talked to their squadmates on the Normandy.
I'm also incredibly surprised that Jacob even made 1% of the romances. Those poor, poor people.
Edit: Why do I have huge gaps between paragraphs?
Modifié par ElitePinecone, 16 février 2011 - 01:58 .
#4342
Posté 16 février 2011 - 02:02
KenKenpachi
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I'ld be wary of a poll in general I seen one that once had Tali at like 56% Polls arn't useful at all when dealing with a base thats in the millions. At the very least you'ld need to get 100,000 people so you even get a 10% base out of 1 Million which still isn't a good sampeling. Thats why I never pay attention to polls. Its like if I held a job interview and 100 people were in the room, I called 5 in and told the others to leave as based on this sampeling they all aren't qualified to work for me.
In which case I'ld be asked if I were insane, however if I just take a poll it seems to be forgotten. More so if it agree's to ones own thinking.
In which case I'ld be asked if I were insane, however if I just take a poll it seems to be forgotten. More so if it agree's to ones own thinking.
#4343
Posté 16 février 2011 - 04:18
vader da slayer
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or they didnt romance anyone cause they romance Liara in ME1.....like I didElitePinecone wrote...
That's... interesting.
Fits with what we know about approximately 80% of players using a male Shepard.
The obvious conclusion to draw is that the 13% who didn't romance anybody did so because there were no options for them, but I'd be wary of this assumption. Presumably some people couldn't be bothered with the romance dialogue, didn't like any of the options, wanted to be faithful to their ME romance or just never found talked to their squadmates on the Normandy.
I'm also incredibly surprised that Jacob even made 1% of the romances. Those poor, poor people.
Edit: Why do I have huge gaps between paragraphs?
#4344
Posté 16 février 2011 - 04:45
ElitePinecone
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Yeah, I realise that poll isn't meant to be scientific, but it does vaguely fit with what we know about the demographics of ME2. Based on Bioware's internal stats (I forget the exact term) only about 20% of players ever used fem Shep.
David Gaider did remark once that similar stats for DAO showed a higher than expected number of male Warden and Zevran romances. Go figure.
David Gaider did remark once that similar stats for DAO showed a higher than expected number of male Warden and Zevran romances. Go figure.
#4345
Posté 16 février 2011 - 11:53
jacob marez
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should have to choose same sex or not for male in the beginning of a game because i like being nice to garrus and grunt and zaeed,but im not gay and dont want homosexual relationship on accident and i dont want to have to be mean to them to avoid this accident
#4346
Posté 16 février 2011 - 05:57
catabuca
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jacob marez wrote...
should have to choose same sex or not for male in the beginning of a game because i like being nice to garrus and grunt and zaeed,but im not gay and dont want homosexual relationship on accident and i dont want to have to be mean to them to avoid this accident
Don't know about you, but I was able to play the game as manShep and not accidentally fall into bed with Miranda, Jack or Tali. Because I read what it said on the wheel.
That said, many have complained about 'ninjamances', they are not, however, something that should be avoided purely because it might ick out the people who don't like anything gay. They should be avoided because it's good form to allow as much intent as possible to show through in the dialogue wheel before you choose your option as possible.
I'm interested to see how DA2 works with the intent icons in the centre of the wheel. While I'd like to see something like that in ME3, it would perhaps be counterintuitive to the way paragon-top, renegade-bottom currently works. But still, a
icon for romance dialogue (whether it's gay or not) would be most welcome.
#4347
Posté 16 février 2011 - 05:59
catabuca
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I did, for the record, use to be against the idea of icons for romances. Or rather, against different coloured text, as I think we once discussed. I've been swayed by the arguments for it though, and think it would solve more issues that it would ultimately cause.
Toggles for choosing to be gay or not though - nope. Absolutely not. Never. Not on your nelly. I cannot state enough how ridiculous and, actually, offensive I find that idea.
Toggles for choosing to be gay or not though - nope. Absolutely not. Never. Not on your nelly. I cannot state enough how ridiculous and, actually, offensive I find that idea.
#4348
Posté 16 février 2011 - 07:04
Siansonea
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I wish more NPCs would initiate a romance dialogue with Shepard, rather than it always being Shep who makes the first move. Jack, for instance should have had an auto-trigger cutscene where she puts the moves on Shepard, rather than waiting around for Shepard to come talk to her. Basically if Shepard comes down to the Engineering Deck after talking to her a couple of times, Jack should pounce on Shepard in the hallway outside the elevator, then lead Shepard down to her lair and try to initiate the sexytimes. Paragon Shepard who wants a real romance with her would turn her down gently, Neutral Shepard would go for it, but kill the chance for a further romance, and Renegade Shepard would laugh in her face and reject her. This would also kill the chance to gain her loyalty, even after successfully completing the Loyalty Mission, unless Shepard can intimidate her with a red-text option after Pragia. That would be less cookie-cutter and more character-specific for Jack. It would also make it harder for people to just ignore the romance options, but I think that makes for a more realistic game. And it's not like a ninjamance at all. The only other characters I can see being "proactive" with pursuing Shepard are Thane and Miranda, though I think they wouldn't necessarily approach Shepard with that until after their loyalty missions are done.
Of course, this is a retroactive situation, since the game is already out, but the principle is what I'm mainly getting at. In real life, sometimes you are the pursuer, sometimes you are the pursued, and it has more to do with the other person's personality than your own.
Of course, this is a retroactive situation, since the game is already out, but the principle is what I'm mainly getting at. In real life, sometimes you are the pursuer, sometimes you are the pursued, and it has more to do with the other person's personality than your own.
#4349
Posté 16 février 2011 - 10:50
KawaiiKatie
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catabuca wrote...
Toggles for choosing to be gay or not though - nope. Absolutely not. Never. Not on your nelly. I cannot state enough how ridiculous and, actually, offensive I find that idea.
I think Leoroc, over at the DA2 forums, said it best: "Sexual orientation is spectrum, not a toggle."
It would be pretty offensive if under the "Settings" menu, there was a button to turn homosexuality on or off. Like a character's sexuality is as optional feature, the equivalent of autosaves, subtitles, or a difficulty setting. That would be the thing to turn me away from the Mass Effect series. I would be offended beyond belief.
There are many ways that Bioware could choose to include more sexual orientations in the Mass Effect series, and I trust that if they choose to do so, they will do it with the intent of equality, and pull it off in an unoffensive manner.
#4350
Posté 17 février 2011 - 01:05
Kelliak
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I really don't care if there are gay partners or not in this game. To me the concept of sexual preferences should not be at the forefront of a developer's mind, it really shouldn't. I'm not homophobic or anything of that sort, in fact, I am very lightly sprinkled on over to the "bisexual" side of the graph here.
They'll either do it or not but I think you need to let them decide if that's what they really want. Rather than demanding it of them. There are other factors and player groups that need to be taken into consideration. Not to mention they may have a desire to keep many of the characters in this game for the most part on the "straight" side of the spectrum - as the OP pointed out, they haven't done that with many past games. Sometimes it is merely about the design of the character and less about giving in for the sake of giving in.
Like for instance; when I think up of a character in my head for a drawing or game I am immediately identifying various aspects of their personality. Are they curious? Are they straight? Are they mean or good hearted? So on and so forth. Bioware likely did the same with their cast.
Edit: Why is it spacing me out so bad? I had to close the gaps between paragraphs, submit. Then redo them. Now the gaps seem reasonable.
They'll either do it or not but I think you need to let them decide if that's what they really want. Rather than demanding it of them. There are other factors and player groups that need to be taken into consideration. Not to mention they may have a desire to keep many of the characters in this game for the most part on the "straight" side of the spectrum - as the OP pointed out, they haven't done that with many past games. Sometimes it is merely about the design of the character and less about giving in for the sake of giving in.
Like for instance; when I think up of a character in my head for a drawing or game I am immediately identifying various aspects of their personality. Are they curious? Are they straight? Are they mean or good hearted? So on and so forth. Bioware likely did the same with their cast.
Edit: Why is it spacing me out so bad? I had to close the gaps between paragraphs, submit. Then redo them. Now the gaps seem reasonable.
Modifié par Kelliak, 17 février 2011 - 01:28 .
