9243 réponses à ce sujet

[lilliful]

*sneaks in and sadly clamors for a gay man!shep*

[KawaiiKatie]

catabuca wrote...

I'd really love to know what game pre-determined Shepard is in, 'cause he sure as hell ain't in mine.

Haha, this. I've never really been a fan of anyone telling me what my role-play character's sexuality is (because, yeah, my Shepard is gay, and the lack of men to hit on will never invalidate this) but I accepted it until the release of ME2. Nowadays. the "Shepard is a pre-determined character" argument seems pretty invalid, especially when you use it to argue against same-sex romance. Here's why:

1) Hawke from Dragon Age 2 is "pre-determined,"  but allowed to be bisexual.
2) Female Shepard can have sex with a human female.
3) The only "pre-determined" feature of Shepard appears to be male Shepard's sexuality.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 26 février 2011 - 09:24 .

[catabuca]

lilliful wrote...

*sneaks in and sadly clamors for a gay man!shep*

Sweetheart!

*glomps*

[catabuca]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

catabuca wrote...

I'd really love to know what game pre-determined Shepard is in, 'cause he sure as hell ain't in mine.

Haha, this. I've never really been a fan of anyone telling me what my role-play character's sexuality is (because, yeah, my Shepard is gay, and the lack of men to hit on will never invalidate this) but I accepted it until the release of ME2. Nowadays. the "Shepard is a pre-determined character" argument seems pretty invalid, especially when you use it to argue against same-sex romance. Here's why:

1) Hawke from Dragon Age 2 is "pre-determined,"  but allowed to be bisexual.
2) Female Shepard can have sex with a human female.
3) The only "pre-determined" feature of Shepard appears to be male Shepard's sexuality.

Nail. Head. Hit.

Seriously, the pre-determined bull is just <_<

Some day, regardless of the outcome of our fight for the love, I'd really appreciate an apology to the community over that ridiculous and offensive comment by them.

[Cootie]

There have been huge outcries since neither of the two games contained any manShep love. One'd think it strange if we got ignored a second time.

[Finis Valorum]

Cootie wrote...

There have been huge outcries since neither of the two games contained any manShep love. One'd think it strange if we got ignored a second time.

Stranger things have happened though. 
At this point in time it is unlikely they would be willing to add any bisexual male companions, though I'd settle for a male Kelly like character if it would finally allow my MShep to express that side of him.

[catabuca]

@Cootie -- Well, you'd think. But on the other hand, you could also say it'd be easier for them to dodge it again by saying it's the final installment of a trilogy and to add s/s LIs at this stage would be too late.

I disagree, of course, but it's an argument I can see being made by them.

Not that they would ever make such a coherent argument. They'd just babble on again about how blue women aren't blue women and Shepard is pre-determined at the same time as you being able to shape your own Shepard.

Modifié par catabuca, 26 février 2011 - 10:20 .

[purplerose1414]

Cootie wrote...

There have been huge outcries since neither of the two games contained any manShep love. One'd think it strange if we got ignored a second time.

Well, this isn't completely true. ME1 had the Maleshep/Kaidan and the Femshep/Ashley romances almost completely voiced and coded into the game, and I believe ME2 had some Maleshep/Thane voice files deep somewhere. It's interesting how Shepard was obviously written to be possibly gay in the Mass Effect games, but not implemented into the final product.

[Cootie]

Close, but no cigar.

No manliness-points for my Shepard as of yet. He wants a rowdy-rough man to wrestle. He's not settling for any sissy girls, no. A tall, muscular man whom he can be manly with, that's his dream.

Like a hoe-bro.


Yes. A hobro.

Why can't my Shepard have his hobro? *sadface*

(Yes, strong masculine men can be gay and save the galaxy at the same time)

Modifié par Cootie, 27 février 2011 - 05:43 .

[catabuca]

Cootie wrote...

Close, but no cigar.

No manliness-points for my Shepard as of yet. He wants a rowdy-rough man to wrestle. He's not settling for any sissy girls, no. A tall, muscular man whom he can be manly with, that's his dream.

Like a hoe-bro.


Yes. A hobro.

Why can't my Shepard have his hobro? *sadface*

(Yes, strong masculine men can be gay and save the galaxy at the same time)

Oh god this. So much this. Look, there's nothing wrong at all with more feminine men. Not a thing. But I know my Shepard, and he's attracted to men who can hold their own (fnar) and can match him physically in every way.

*wipes brow*

Which way to my bunk? ...

[highcastle]

catabuca wrote...

Cootie wrote...

Close, but no cigar.

No manliness-points for my Shepard as of yet. He wants a rowdy-rough man to wrestle. He's not settling for any sissy girls, no. A tall, muscular man whom he can be manly with, that's his dream.

Like a hoe-bro.


Yes. A hobro.

Why can't my Shepard have his hobro? *sadface*

(Yes, strong masculine men can be gay and save the galaxy at the same time)

Oh god this. So much this. Look, there's nothing wrong at all with more feminine men. Not a thing. But I know my Shepard, and he's attracted to men who can hold their own (fnar) and can match him physically in every way.

*wipes brow*

Which way to my bunk? ...

See, that's why I liked Kaidan for a bi love interest. As a biotic, he could totally hold his own in any fight. Plus, my Shep's an Adept, and two biotics together is a powerful combination in more ways than one.  *sighs* Sometimes I don't understand how the inclusive Dragon Age franchise and the exclusive Mass Effect can be made by the same company.

[catabuca]

highcastle wrote...

See, that's why I liked Kaidan for a bi love interest. As a biotic, he could totally hold his own in any fight. Plus, my Shep's an Adept, and two biotics together is a powerful combination in more ways than one.  *sighs* Sometimes I don't understand how the inclusive Dragon Age franchise and the exclusive Mass Effect can be made by the same company.

Oh god, yeah, my Shep is all about Kaidan. I should say, my Sheps. 2 adepts, 1 adept-turned-sentinel, and 1 vanguard.

*ahem* so, yeah ... I get where you're coming from about the biotic sex gods angle

And yes, I don't think it's enough anymore to simply say 'BioWare are a great, inclusive video game developer'. Nowadays it seems you have to separate out the different divisions. The Dragon Age team are great, inclusive video game developers; the Mass Effect team (or rather, their PR and mouthpieces) appear to not realise when they're being offensive (I refer specifically to the comments about why there is no gay in space).

I don't for a second believe the ME team is homophobic, either knowingly or unknowingly. Not at all. Not including s/s content does not mean you are homophobic, nor does it mean you don't care. It's merely incredibly unfortunate that some of the comments made by certain people who wield a lot of power have been glib, offensive, and cold. I think that's one of the main reasons there is so much bad feeling now. Simply because of the way this whole ****storm has been handled.

[Neezoy]

It makes me sad to think about all the gay male Shepards out there with no one to snuggle up to at night (at least not sans mods)... I want something to be done about it. I'd gladly do it myself if I could (write I can do, but write for a game I've never tried, and to become hired by Bioware seems tricky).

Don't know if it should be an all new character though... seems we had enough of them in ME2 (don't know how all of them are going to fit into ME3 as it is...). I would be happy if it was Kaidan who discoverd/revealed his passion for a male Shepard, since he is a great character who needs to be shared, no matter if it means revealing him as a long-time (closeted) bisexual or a Shepard-sexual (as in "I have never felt attraction for another man until I met you, Shepard", however corny that may be). Also, as an added bonus, it would mean yet another reason for the developers to have him return in ME3 (as if they needed one!).

[DrBobcat]

catabuca wrote...

I don't for a second believe the ME team is homophobic, either knowingly or unknowingly. Not at all. Not including s/s content does not mean you are homophobic, nor does it mean you don't care. It's merely incredibly unfortunate that some of the comments made by certain people who wield a lot of power have been glib, offensive, and cold. I think that's one of the main reasons there is so much bad feeling now. Simply because of the way this whole ****storm has been handled.

This.

Typically, I try to refrain from using such informal language ("forum speak"), but this snippet describes my position so well. I have been a Bioware fan for many nears now and love what they have done for the industry. They have, in my opinion, made great strides in elevating video games beyond mere childish amusement and towards the realm of art. I would not go so far as to say they are leading the charge, as that is debatable and beside the point. Regardless, their accomplisments should not be downplayed and I will not walk away simply because they made a mistake.

That being said, I want to share how this ordeal has made me feel and emphasize what I think the real issue is. A metaphor seems the best way to do this. Imagine you're going out on a date with someone you've never met. So far, everything has gone well. You go out to dinner at a nice restaurant, watch an entertaining film, share a few flirtatious glances, and so on. The experience has been thoroughly enjoyable and you begin to feel close to this person. Yet, as you both sit on a bench and watch the moon overhead, your date suddenly blurts out an incredibly offensive joke. It seems completely out-of-character. So out-of-character, in fact, that you look away slightly, brows furrowed, and wonder if you've accidently stepped into the Twilight Zone. While everything that had led up to that moment had been legitimately enjoyable and even exhilarating, you cannot shake it from your mind and it colors your opinion of that person in such a way so as to influence all future opinions thereafter. As you drive home, you continue giving off all the necessary grins, chuckles, blushes and winks, but still are left feeling uneasy. You can and likely will forgive them (internally), but you know that an otherwise immaculate experience has been marred.

Okay, maybe I'm being a bit melodramatic, but I think my point has been made. Bioware has handled this situation poorly and that is where a significant portion of my frustration stems from. Do I truly and honestly believe ME3 will have a M/M romance option? No, I do not. I sure as hell hope it does, though, and it will earn them something I feel is far more valuable than money: respect.

*He crosses his arms, stands up straight, and smiles* You can't stop a man from dreaming.

Modifié par DrBobcat, 28 février 2011 - 02:23 .

[ElitePinecone]

catabuca wrote...
And yes, I don't think it's enough anymore to simply say 'BioWare are a great, inclusive video game developer'. Nowadays it seems you have to separate out the different divisions. The Dragon Age team are great, inclusive video game developers; the Mass Effect team (or rather, their PR and mouthpieces) appear to not realise when they're being offensive (I refer specifically to the comments about why there is no gay in space).

I don't for a second believe the ME team is homophobic, either knowingly or unknowingly. Not at all. Not including s/s content does not mean you are homophobic, nor does it mean you don't care. It's merely incredibly unfortunate that some of the comments made by certain people who wield a lot of power have been glib, offensive, and cold. I think that's one of the main reasons there is so much bad feeling now. Simply because of the way this whole ****storm has been handled.

Agree with a lot of this. 

To be as objective as I can be given the circumstances, I think it's important (or at least fair) to acknowledge that there are a huge number of (probable, plausible) reasons why s/s content never made it into both games - tightly managed and limited budgets, resources, timing, marketability, and yes, perhaps some wariness of a backlash from shooter fans. David Gaider has outlined this in other areas, emphasizing that budgets really are limited and prone to the exigencies of development that necessitate cuts - which is all Bioware's perogative, after all. 

It strikes me as odd that, if budgetary reasons were the motivation behind the cutting of s/s romances for Shepard in the first and second games, and it seems reasonably likely that they were, it would take a very simple explanation from Bioware (akin to Gaider's reasoning, which I found very justifiable) to explain the issue. An explanation would probably be accepted better than half-thought out and contradictory logic (Hudson's answer to the question on s/s did touch on budgetary restraints, then veered off into talking about Tali and PG-13 romances. Muzayka's didn't make much sense - is Shepard a blank canvas, or not - and why does Hawke have s/s romance options?).

So yes, it could be better handled, but you're right in saying that there was certainly no malicious intent behind it. I think the language used was muddled at best, and didn't go very far in explaining why Bioware made the decision they did. A simple and reasoned explanation of budget limits works far better than trying to circuitously explain why this particular character is malleable except for sexuality. 

[catabuca]

You both make excellent points, and DrBobCat, I think your analogy works well.

Some thoughts I just typed in a PM, I thought I'd x-post here because, well, once I get typing, you know me well enough by know to know how that goes

I very much doubt anyone from BW bothers looking at this thread anymore, not that I'm sure they did much to begin with (apart from to check we weren't flaming and trolling each other). I expect once we start hearing more information about the new DLC and then about the game proper traffic will pick up again.

I'm very active in the DA2 forums at the moment, particularly on the m/m romance thread. The atmosphere there is positively carnival-like, and I can't remember the last time we had a troll come in with any kind of negative 'no, I don't want mansex in my game'. The worst we get is someone expressing their distaste for Zevran hitting on them, and even then it's rarely troll material. It will be interesting to see what happens once DA2 is out, because if they do expand their audience to include a few more action fans (while they're not going for the same crowd as ME, there's still a slight shift toward new gamers) we might see more opposition to s/s content appear. Then again, hopefully people will take it for what it is, just an inclusive game. Because nothing is made of the fact there is s/s content in DA games it more or less just exists without a big fanfare (apart from the one we make in the m/m and romance threads with our ridiculous squeeing over all the hot characters :innocent:).

With the Dragon Age franchise I often feel like there's still all to play for, and I look forward to new types of relationships and companion interactions in future games, and I don't feel worried about the way s/s relationships will be handled. There are nuances and details always at stake of course, but in general the good work has already been done and it can only get better. With the Mass Effect franchise, however, well I feel like that ship has sailed. Like we've passed the point of no return, and it's too late in the day to affect change now. There's too much at stake for BW to implement s/s in ME3 now (because it's been left until the final installment of the trilogy, along with it seeming like backing down after the clusterf**k that has been their attitude toward it in interviews and marketing to date). That said, I can't help but leave a little portion of myself open to hope. I look at Tali and Garrus and the way they listened to the fans, and dredged up resources to implement something for them, and the tiniest sliver of 'well just maybe' flashes through my mind. But then, look at the volume of Tali and Garrus fans, and look at the lack of people using the FftL thread at the moment. We may have over 1000 members of the group, but it's pretty quiet, the same handful of people posting there, and on the thread, over and over. Despite so many critical articles in well respected places (and there have been a lot) popping up over the past few years (along with the most recent I know of - the '15 things I want to see in ME3') bemoaning the lack of s/s relationships, I fear that that won't make the tiniest bit of difference in the face of what I so cynically can't help viewing as an outright denial that we or our arguments exist.

*sigh* I don't think I'm capable of writing about this without resorting to walls of text.

Modifié par catabuca, 28 février 2011 - 11:10 .

[catabuca]

I wish this thread had the same atmosphere as the DA2 s/s threads. There's a good mix of serious debate on implementation etc., along with lighthearted and often hilarious chatting about various characters, a fair amount of perving, great fan art, and a generally positive attitude.

Heck, even the regular character fan threads are full of s/s chatter, and it's made to feel just as welcome there as o/s chat. I feel positively unwelcome mentioning my favourite pairings in any of the ME character threads. I wouldn't dream of espousing the same arguments I do in here on those threads, but I feel like I wouldn't even be welcome to mention Kaidan and mShep in passing on the Kaidan thread, for example. Even if it was just to say something like 'oh yeah, my James Shepard likes it when Kaidan does that too', to reply to someone who might say their fShep likes it when Kaidan wipes his brow (for example). I'm sure the majority of people there would be fine, but there's enough tension that has cropped up in the past to make me feel unwelcome. Maybe I'm making more of that than I should, but the feeling is there nonetheless. In the DA2 character threads fHawke and mHawke players mingle together to appreciate the finer points of Fenris and Anders, sharing art, stories, and just lewd and funny comments or whatever. It makes me sad, because I arguably prefer ME to DA as a franchise, and yet I don't really like the ME fandom, with its possessiveness and petty spite.

Perhaps we should make an effort to try and make this thread a haven from that, and try to bring over a little of the party spirit from the DA2 forum. We'll get more trolls, sure, but we can rise above that. I think for too long now we've let the bastards get us down.

[Neezoy]

catabuca wrote...

Perhaps we should make an effort to try and make this thread a haven from that, and try to bring over a little of the party spirit from the DA2 forum.

I'm all for that! If I had some smexy M!Shep/Kaidan fanart I would totally post it now. But sadly my painting/photoshopping skills are too low for show... So I have to settle with *giddily waving the virtual rainbow flag around, hoping it pokes some of the nasty trolls in the eyes*.

[catabuca]

Neezoy wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Perhaps we should make an effort to try and make this thread a haven from that, and try to bring over a little of the party spirit from the DA2 forum.

I'm all for that! If I had some smexy M!Shep/Kaidan fanart I would totally post it now. But sadly my painting/photoshopping skills are too low for show... So I have to settle with *giddily waving the virtual rainbow flag around, hoping it pokes some of the nasty trolls in the eyes*.

I have some, oh boy do I have some:

Sheploo and Kaidan during their reunion on Omega - nsfw, obv.

Modifié par catabuca, 28 février 2011 - 02:28 .

[Neezoy]

catabuca wrote...

I have some, oh boy do I have some:

Sheploo and Kaidan during their reunion on Omega - nsfw, obv.

Oh! NICE!  *whoops! sent the flag flying right out of my hand though*

Modifié par Neezoy, 28 février 2011 - 03:22 .

[catabuca]

IKR?

I'll be in my bunk ...

*unf*

[Neezoy]

catabuca wrote...

IKR?

I'll be in my bunk ...

*unf*

I meant the flag went a-flying because I got excited waving it around so much over the nice picture (not because of shock or anything like it), but you got that, right?

Modifié par Neezoy, 28 février 2011 - 03:23 .

[catabuca]

Heh, yeah, I got that XD

There's so little mShep/Kaidan art out there, but there are a few nice pieces over at dA and elsewhere I've seen.

This is sweet: Shep/Kaidan kissing; and then there is this, again kissing, which is one of my favourite pieces ever.

Considering the amount of people who ship them, it does surprise me there is such a lack of art featuring them.

Perhaps the artists who frequent this thread should rectify that? I'm just sayin' ^__^

[Neezoy]

catabuca wrote...
and then there is this, again kissing, which is one of my favourite pieces ever.

That IS nice. Makes me wish my drawing skills were up to par now more than ever...

catabuca wrote...
Considering the amount of people who ship them, it does surprise me there is such a lack of art featuring them.

Perhaps the artists who frequent this thread should rectify that? I'm just sayin' ^__^

Yes, something definitely needs to be done about that! Hello forum artists, can you hear us? Wink, wink, nudge, nudge and all that... Come one, give us MOAR!

Modifié par Neezoy, 28 février 2011 - 03:39 .

[Cootie]

There are now 1077 members, by the by.
I figured someone would've brought out the cake by now, but apparently the last 31 people weren't important enough.
*glares at Catabuca*