9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Chriagon]

catabuca wrote...

Well folks, the news is as good as confirmed: all the LIs in DA2 are available to both genders.

It'll be interesting to see what happens as the game comes out, and whether the response to it will have any bearing on ME3.

It would seem awfully odd now to have the DA team make such a progressive and inclusive move as this and still have the ME team deny the possibility of gay in space (particularly in the unfortunate and offensive way it has been handled to date).

But I believe we in the FftL thread and group have something we can rally around now.

Hawke is arguably 'pre-defined' just as Shepard is. Actually, I'd argue Hawke is more pre-defined, since you don't get to choose his/her background - s/he always has the same family and history. And yet Hawke's sexuality can be as fluid and open to player customisation as everything else about him/her.

ME team: you just lost another leg to stand on.

I second that. The ME team should become more open minded.

[catabuca]

I'd also say that, in addition to us being able to discuss the 'pre-defined protagonist' issue in a new light, we can do the same with the idea of 'opening up' old characters to be bisexual when they hadn't expressed that side of sexuality before. Case in point: Anders.

[Weltenschlange]

Cootie wrote...

I think I've asked this before, but it's worth discussing again.

What were you initial feelings or thoughts when you realised there were no homosexual romance-squaddies in ME-2? Did your heart sink, did you get angry?
Did you not care until much later? Things like that.
I wanna' know about your impressions and experiences!

I was surprised and shocked. I honestly had not even considered the possibility that a Bioware game with a record number of potential LIs might not include at least two s/s options.
I guess my experience with JE and DAO made me think  that the romances would be at least similar in future Bioware games. The fact that we only got Liara as an s/s option in the first ME game should probably have made me suspicious.
Some of the things Casey Hudson then later said actually made me angry.
Him being the project lead for ME3 does not bode well IMO.

Still, I won't give up hope for:
AUFGESTOCKT IM WELTRAUM

Modifié par Weltenschlange, 04 mars 2011 - 06:15 .

[Blue_Shayde]

I'd like to confess my full support of any mShep/Kaiden and fShep/Ashley (for the Ashley fan) protests and causes!! If a game that won this many awards can have m/m, why can't ME? I think we ME lgbt fans have waited through enough of the game already.

Cootie wrote...

I think I've asked this before, but it's worth discussing again.

What
were you initial feelings or thoughts when you realised there were no
homosexual romance-squaddies in ME-2? Did your heart sink, did you get
angry?
Did you not care until much later? Things like that.
I wanna' know about your impressions and experiences!

I was shocked and very annoyed, especially at the lame excuse ME used. Oh, the Asari aren't actually female. Pfft...I think only the ME team actually believed that. Not even the media believed that excuse. I held out hoping that in ME2, the relationship might deapen and I'd have a chance at Kaiden with my mShep. I thought ME would have a change of heart.

Nothing. You can romance with a turian, but two men? Oh god no!

It took so much to play ME and beat if without a sidequest romance to aid me. And by the way, ME team? I hate Ashley. I will always kill her off. Furthermore, I hate her even more for still assuming we had a romance going even though I chose nothing but the meanest and most hateful dialogue choices against her. And that right there is very sad when she still didn't get a clue.

Modifié par Blue_Shayde, 04 mars 2011 - 02:06 .

[lawp79]

From what I have read the reason it wasnt included was space and they were going for a pg13 rather than mature, I think this is a rather lame excuse, the first priority should always be the game. I believe DAO has "mature" rating and still sold bucket loads.

[catabuca]

lawp79 - ME2 is Mature rated as well. It's a nonsensical excuse. Much like many of their others.

[Siansonea]

Cootie wrote...
I think I've asked this before, but it's worth discussing again.

What were you initial feelings or thoughts when you realised there were no homosexual romance-squaddies in ME-2? Did your heart sink, did you get angry?
Did you not care until much later? Things like that.
I wanna' know about your impressions and experiences!

I was disappointed in a lot of the handling of romances in ME2, but the overall game was pretty satisfying, so I wasn't irate or anything. I only became irate when I heard Ray Muzyka and Casey Hudson spouting nonsense about pre-defined characters and PG-13 game experiences (how is an m/m romance any less PG-13 than an m/f relationship, anyway? Douchebags.) And it's important to remember that this initiative isn't solely to establish parity for LGBT players, though that is certianly a worthwhile enough reason, but there are plenty of non-LGBT people who would like this content implemented as well. Some of us would like to roleplay something besides avatars of ourselves, BioWare. Moar options plz.

[catabuca]

Good point Sian. This isn't just about creating content for X% of LGBT gamers, but about expanding possibilities for all players. I think that often gets lost with all the debating, especially from those who don't want to see any s/s romances. Thankfully however, they don't speak for all straight players.

[Cootie]

Siansonea II wrote...

And it's important to remember that this initiative isn't solely to establish parity for LGBT players, though that is certianly a worthwhile enough reason, but there are plenty of non-LGBT people who would like this content implemented as well. Some of us would like to roleplay something besides avatars of ourselves, BioWare. Moar options plz.

I believe I'm to be filed in this category. As a roleplayer, you grow as a person by expanding your perspective, learn to know different parts of yourself, et cetera.
Adding options like these can change perspectives, alter opinions and affect people in more ways than you can imagine. Bioware wanted to make a memorable space opera, not Halo with a dialogue reel.

And AMAGAWSH, good news for the DA-2 team! Now it's pretty much confirmed that I'm gonna' buy it, tell my friends to buy it and probably force them to at "I'll-glare-at-you-forvever-if-you-don't"-point.
A part of me wants to believe that this is a nudge at the ME-team to open up some romance options. Hopefully this will prove a point.

(Goshdarnit, I want to hug someone. Volunteers?)

[catabuca]

*volunteers*

[plumededragop]

Hello there!

I'm here to show my support for same-sex relationship in ME.<3Even though I don't have any in my games (I romance Garrus with a FemShep), it doesn't stop me from supporting everyone who wants one.
What's going on in DA has yet to be seen in ME, and it disappoints me a lot. However, I'm quite confident in how the romances will go in the upcoming ME3. I'm really hoping to see more liberty of love (if that's not correct, sorry English isn't my first language) for all players.
Count on me for the support. <3

[lawp79]

@catabuca I wasn't sure if me was mature rating either way it's a lame excuse.

My femshep is still waiting on a romance with Ashley (who I believe was intended to be bi) or even Miranda but instead I have to play as a male. I try and stay away from politics on this forum but honestly with DA2 romances being the way they now are I am wondering what the hell is wrong with the bigwigs over at ME. Has anyone forwarded this thread over to afterellen or Elton? They do features on video games etc and may bag some more support.


Sorry if this reads badly I wrote it on my iPhone while on the go which can be tricky.

[catabuca]

Hmm, I wonder if either of them picked up on this at the time. I know there were plenty of articles around when ME2 came out about the lack of s/s romances, and more still during ME1.

[Aurgelmir]

I've read through a lot of this post. I think the Idea that Mass Effect is different from Dragon Age, in that you are playing as a somewhat pre-defined character is correct. I really don't believe that Shepard swings that way, I just dont get that vibe. That said however if it was as DLC, if it was optional content, then I wouldnt have a problem with it.

I think though Bioware are in danger of overdoing it now. In Ferelden it seems half the population is swinging all sorts of ways, which does break the believability of the world. I wouldn't want to see the same happen to Mass Effect.

[catabuca]

Hawke is arguably more pre-defined than Shepard (you can't choose his/her background, it is static), and yet each individual player has the opportunity to play Hawke how they want. That's all we ask for. Inclusion. Choice. Fairness. It wouldn't hurt anyone's game to have one more type of choice.

[Aurgelmir]

catabuca wrote...

Hawke is arguably more pre-defined than Shepard (you can't choose his/her background, it is static), and yet each individual player has the opportunity to play Hawke how they want. That's all we ask for. Inclusion. Choice. Fairness. It wouldn't hurt anyone's game to have one more type of choice.

I'm inclined to agree with you, though some players are gay and some are homophobic, but what if players equally had a choice to play it as a homophobe to balance it? That wouldn't be okay. I think choice is a fine thing as long as it doesent impact on other players immersion, It would be uncomfortable in the game , as in real life, If I was hit on in by another same sex NPC.

But yes there should be choice. Maybe through DLC, maybe by stating at character creation you're preference. But I do think we need to get out of the habit of just making a bunch of bisexual NPC characters to balance it, I don't think it does the characters themselves any justice, and I think making token gays is the wrong approach.

[catabuca]

Aurgelmir wrote...

I'm inclined to agree with you, though some players are gay and some are homophobic, but what if players equally had a choice to play it as a homophobe to balance it? That wouldn't be okay. I think choice is a fine thing as long as it doesent impact on other players immersion, It would be uncomfortable in the game , as in real life, If I was hit on in by another same sex NPC.

But yes there should be choice. Maybe through DLC, maybe by stating at character creation you're preference. But I do think we need to get out of the habit of just making a bunch of bisexual NPC characters to balance it, I don't think it does the characters themselves any justice, and I think making token gays is the wrong approach.

There is a difference between putting the choice to romance a character of the same gender in a game and putting the chance to be homophobic in a game: the former doesn't hurt anyone; the latter does.

As for your personal discomfort, that isn't a strong enough argument to not include this content. Try to put yourself in the shoes of others for a moment. Think about having one moment where a character might call you handsome, where you can say 'thanks, but I'm not interested' and then move on with the rest of the game; then think about someone whose entire sexuality it treated like it doesn't exist. Think about someone whose only chance to experience romance in the game is by playing a straight character, when they themselves may be gay. Think about someone who has that reinforced throughout the entire game each time a straight LI is in front of them, available to intitiate a romance, if they want it. The fact they are excluded from the game universe is ever-present. It goes way beyond just one moment of hearing a character hit on you and being able to turn them down.

Your preferences as a straight gamer are already there. There is no such luxury for the queer gamer. Saying their choice should be denied 'in case you feel uncomfortable' is a horrible attitude to have.

There should be choice for everyone. Adding one or two bisexual characters adds to that choice, it does nothing to take away from your own.

[catabuca]

SkyeHawk89 wrote...

I am curious, why is it called Fight for the Love? That sound like it is only for people and ******-people wanting Same-Sex. I know the Asari aren't considered male and female, but they are female to known races but they the Asari are not. Yes I do understand what you are asking for and want. I think there will be newer and more options in future Mass Effects. I think Fight for the Love should be for all orientations not just ******. Yes it be nice if you get what you like and want, I though think users and people should be respectful of people answers and opinions. I am just pointing that out. {Being polite.}

Why do you think it's called Fight for the Love? Because we're fighting for the love.

And yes, this thread was created with the specific intent to raise awareness about the lack of same-sex romance in Mass Effect. Why would we need to fight to include straight romance? It's already there. We're not fighting to get rid of straight romance, but to add same-sex romance to what already exists. I'm genuinely confused as to your argument.

[Aurgelmir]

catabuca wrote...

There is a difference between putting the choice to romance a character of the same gender in a game and putting the chance to be homophobic in a game: the former doesn't hurt anyone; the latter does.

As for your personal discomfort, that isn't a strong enough argument to not include this content. Try to put yourself in the shoes of others for a moment. Think about having one moment where a character might call you handsome, where you can say 'thanks, but I'm not interested' and then move on with the rest of the game; then think about someone whose entire sexuality it treated like it doesn't exist. Think about someone whose only chance to experience romance in the game is by playing a straight character, when they themselves may be gay. Think about someone who has that reinforced throughout the entire game each time a straight LI is in front of them, available to intitiate a romance, if they want it. The fact they are excluded from the game universe is ever-present. It goes way beyond just one moment of hearing a character hit on you and being able to turn them down.

Your preferences as a straight gamer are already there. There is no such luxury for the queer gamer. Saying their choice should be denied 'in case you feel uncomfortable' is a horrible attitude to have.

There should be choice for everyone. Adding one or two bisexual characters adds to that choice, it does nothing to take away from your own.

Let's try and avoid using 'horrible attitude' to describe how I, or anyone, feels. Its a feeling and isn't something that can be changed easily. I just don't want to be shouted down as a homophobe.

I agree with you, I do. Choice is good, players can choose their race, their sex, so they should be able to choose their preference. The fact is gay people, I can only assume, would go through that situation you described above, in life, all the time. Seeing possible romantic intrests that are denied to them since the other person isn't gay, thats life, and that has translated into video games. Arbitrarily adding bisexual characters is pandering, which isnt fair to anyone, not to the characters themselves, not to some in the gay community who may feel patronised.

There is a solution to this I feel, I think its optional content though and it shouldn't be shoehorned into the game.

Modifié par Aurgelmir, 04 mars 2011 - 10:44 .

[Eternal Dust]

Aurgelmir wrote...
There is a solution to this I feel, I think its optional content though and it shouldn't be shoehorned into the game.

You're right. Romances are optional content, so let's remove them altogether so that no one gets a piece of the pie. However, romances give players a closer connection to the characters and opens a level of understanding that goes beyond platonic chit chat. It enriches the overall experience of the game. Why should those who prefer same-sex romances be left out of this? Because "that's life?" I thought this was a video game. If it's just "life" then how is it logical that nearly every female squadmate is attracted to Sheploo?

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Aurgelmir wrote...

I agree with you, I do. Choice is good, players can choose their race, their sex, so they should be able to choose their preference. The fact is gay people, I can only assume, would go through that situation you described above, in life, all the time. Seeing possible romantic intrests that are denied to them since the other person isn't gay, thats life, and that has translated into video games. Arbitrarily adding bisexual characters is pandering, which isnt fair to anyone, not to the characters themselves, not to some in the gay community who may feel patronised.

There is a solution to this I feel, I think its optional content though and it shouldn't be shoehorned into the game.

Part of the problem, though, is that there's plenty of pandering already, and seemingly nobody minds...as long as that pandering is in a way that appeals to them, or at least is about something they don't care much about. As an example, there was very little by way of objection to the fact that every female crewmember on the ship wanted to get into Shep's pants...including the non-LI (whose response amounted to 'if I was younger, I'd totally do you'). (I can't speak to Kasumi as I did not purchase that DLC; however, I think we can safely leave her out of discussion of LIs just as we leave Zaeed out of them.) I think all of the objection I saw to that was in this thread (or one of its previous iterations) - mostly cast in context of requests for flirting with Shep being turned down.

Statistics aside, I want to know why I don't see people who, like yourself, advance the 'maybe the NPC isn't gay' argument against inclusion of (male) s/s LIs, also advance its corollary: maybe the NPC isn't straight. But then, that would leave straight people out of the romance loop...something they're not used to, and probably wouldn't like if they're accustomed to their presence/used to Bioware games. Can't leave out that pandering, even though it is just as arbitrary, in its own way, as adding functionally bisexual NPCs.

I'm with octoberfire on this one. If you consider it optional content, fine...but then call for it to all be optional content. Like it or not, us straight people don't get to pretend anymore that gay and bisexual people - gay and bisexual gamers - don't exist. Or that the voluminous commonality of straightness is the only interest that should shape PC/NPC relationships within scripted games. If responding to player requests for bisexual (or, heaven forfend, purely gay) LIs is 'pandering,' so is everything within a game that is changed, added, or removed based on what the devs think players might/have said they want to see.

And if you don't think that devs considering player requests/preferences is 'pandering,' well, I think you need to rethink your definition and use of that word.

Edit for funky formatting problems. WTF, Forum reply function?

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 05 mars 2011 - 12:06 .

[Aurgelmir]

octoberfire wrote...

Aurgelmir wrote...
There is a solution to this I feel, I think its optional content though and it shouldn't be shoehorned into the game.

You're right. Romances are optional content, so let's remove them altogether so that no one gets a piece of the pie. However, romances give players a closer connection to the characters and opens a level of understanding that goes beyond platonic chit chat. It enriches the overall experience of the game. Why should those who prefer same-sex romances be left out of this? Because "that's life?" I thought this was a video game. If it's just "life" then how is it logical that nearly every female squadmate is attracted to Sheploo?

The ladies love Shepard because, well, he's Shepard!

By optional content I mean content that isn't part of the main game as in a DLC.

I realise its a 'game' and not 'life' but the romantic themes are the same as in real life.

You ask the question, why should they be left out of the romantic sub-story? So here are a couple of reasons why I believe it should be left out.

Okay well I dont know what its like in the rest of the world but in Britain its something like 1.5% of the populaton who are bisexual or gay according to the ONS. Now in Ferelden it must be something much higher because they keep seeming to pop-up. In Ferelden thats fine, but in this worlds spacey future we have to assume its a similar number. Now, statisticly speaking, my chances of coming across someone that way inclined are rare.

This is Shepards story, yes you can make certain decisions, but the designer has a very clear Idea about who Shepard is and it clearly isn't someone that way inclined. I'm not trying to stereotype here, but he really doesen't give off that vibe, in the same way that Rambo or McClane don't give off that vibe. In the designers head he is your typical all action hero who gets the girl and saves the world.

My last point is this. Why should they include gay characters? I'm playing devils advocate here, but gay players are minority, a vocal one, but a minority. Time spent on something a small amout of the player base can enjoy could be spent on designing and implementing parts of the game for all players to enjoy, or the majority of players to enjoy.

Now as I've said before I have no problems to gay characters in the game, but I think its not something that would work well in Mass Effect. If it was implemented in Mass Effect it should be implemented in an optional DLC. If players want to play it as a gay person then they can, but I don't think there should be a gay companion in the core of the game.

[Aurgelmir]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Aurgelmir wrote...

I agree with you, I do. Choice is good, players can choose their race, their sex, so they should be able to choose their preference. The fact is gay people, I can only assume, would go through that situation you described above, in life, all the time. Seeing possible romantic intrests that are denied to them since the other person isn't gay, thats life, and that has translated into video games. Arbitrarily adding bisexual characters is pandering, which isnt fair to anyone, not to the characters themselves, not to some in the gay community who may feel patronised.

There is a solution to this I feel, I think its optional content though and it shouldn't be shoehorned into the game.

Part of the problem, though, is that there's plenty of pandering already, and seemingly nobody minds...as long as that pandering is in a way that appeals to them, or at least is about something they don't care much about. As an example, there was very little by way of objection to the fact that every female crewmember on the ship wanted to get into Shep's pants...including the non-LI (whose response amounted to 'if I was younger, I'd totally do you'). (I can't speak to Kasumi as I did not purchase that DLC; however, I think we can safely leave her out of discussion of LIs just as we leave Zaeed out of them.) I think all of the objection I saw to that was in this thread (or one of its previous iterations) - mostly cast in context of requests for flirting with Shep being turned down.

Statistics aside, I want to know why I don't see people who, like yourself, advance the 'maybe the NPC isn't gay' argument against inclusion of (male) s/s LIs, also advance its corollary: maybe the NPC isn't straight. But then, that would leave straight people out of the romance loop...something they're not used to, and probably wouldn't like if they're accustomed to their presence/used to Bioware games. Can't leave out that pandering, even though it is just as arbitrary, in its own way, as adding functionally bisexual NPCs.

I'm with octoberfire on this one. If you consider it optional content, fine...but then call for it to all be optional content. Like it or not, us straight people don't get to pretend anymore that gay and bisexual people - gay and bisexual gamers - don't exist. Or that the voluminous commonality of straightness is the only interest that should shape PC/NPC relationships within scripted games. If responding to player requests for bisexual (or, heaven forfend, purely gay) LIs is 'pandering,' so is everything within a game that is changed, added, or removed based on what the devs think players might/have said they want to see.

And if you don't think that devs considering player requests/preferences is 'pandering,' well, I think you need to rethink your definition and use of that word.

Edit for funky formatting problems. WTF, Forum reply function?

Its the pandering to a minority that I take particular issue with. If it suits the story, or if the story the designers are trying to tell work either way then maybe the occasional option or character here or there isn't a bad thing. Its when siginificant amounts of content are added to the game in order to appease a vocal minority, thats when I begin to think 'Was this the right design choice'. For me a large part of it is how much work the devs put in for which players.

My argument, and I often use this, is fem shep. I got the impression from looking around the forums that it was a popular choice however the metrics said otherwise, only 20% of players. Now when I think of the sheer amount of work in making that I have to wonder could there time not have been spent doing other things for everyone to enjoy.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Why can't the men love Shepard? After all, he's Shepard! Clearly the manliest of men. (Maybe so manly no woman will do...?) Except for when Shepard's a woman...then it's totally okay that he's gay. Because two chicks are hawt, amirite?<_<