9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Aurgelmir]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Why can't the men love Shepard? After all, he's Shepard! Clearly the manliest of men. (Maybe so manly no woman will do...?) Except for when Shepard's a woman...then it's totally okay that he's gay. Because two chicks are hawt, amirite?<_<

If there were any gay characters in the game then I imagine they would fancy him/her. But theres not, I suspect because of the reasons I gave above.

[cpt. awsome]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

Why can't the men love Shepard? After all, he's Shepard! Clearly the manliest of men. (Maybe so manly no woman will do...?) Except for when Shepard's a woman...then it's totally okay that he's gay. Because two chicks are hawt, amirite?<_<

em yes.. yes you are

[Saeran]

Aurgelmir wrote...

octoberfire wrote...

Aurgelmir wrote...
There is a solution to this I feel, I think its optional content though and it shouldn't be shoehorned into the game.

You're right. Romances are optional content, so let's remove them altogether so that no one gets a piece of the pie. However, romances give players a closer connection to the characters and opens a level of understanding that goes beyond platonic chit chat. It enriches the overall experience of the game. Why should those who prefer same-sex romances be left out of this? Because "that's life?" I thought this was a video game. If it's just "life" then how is it logical that nearly every female squadmate is attracted to Sheploo?

The ladies love Shepard because, well, he's Shepard!

By optional content I mean content that isn't part of the main game as in a DLC.

I realise its a 'game' and not 'life' but the romantic themes are the same as in real life.

You ask the question, why should they be left out of the romantic sub-story? So here are a couple of reasons why I believe it should be left out.

Okay well I dont know what its like in the rest of the world but in Britain its something like 1.5% of the populaton who are bisexual or gay according to the ONS. Now in Ferelden it must be something much higher because they keep seeming to pop-up. In Ferelden thats fine, but in this worlds spacey future we have to assume its a similar number. Now, statisticly speaking, my chances of coming across someone that way inclined are rare.

This is Shepards story, yes you can make certain decisions, but the designer has a very clear Idea about who Shepard is and it clearly isn't someone that way inclined. I'm not trying to stereotype here, but he really doesen't give off that vibe, in the same way that Rambo or McClane don't give off that vibe. In the designers head he is your typical all action hero who gets the girl and saves the world.

My last point is this. Why should they include gay characters? I'm playing devils advocate here, but gay players are minority, a vocal one, but a minority. Time spent on something a small amout of the player base can enjoy could be spent on designing and implementing parts of the game for all players to enjoy, or the majority of players to enjoy.

Now as I've said before I have no problems to gay characters in the game, but I think its not something that would work well in Mass Effect. If it was implemented in Mass Effect it should be implemented in an optional DLC. If players want to play it as a gay person then they can, but I don't think there should be a gay companion in the core of the game.

I understand your point but as I've said in the past in this thread.. That is a very cold and unemotional stance to take. It's alright for a heterosexual male to have that romance option, likewise for a heterosexual female and homosexual female, but your reason for denying that their should be a homosexual/bi option for a male shep is that... there just shouldn't be? As has been stated before, not every gay man is a queen. Alot of gay men you wouldn't actually know were gay. Maybe M!Shep is one of these gay men in someone elses story, should they choose to pursue that. And maybe M!Shep is straight as an arrow for your particular play through, should you choose to pursue that.

I don't particular want to romance any of the females on my Shepard, because that makes me feel rather uncomfortable, thus 1 person person feels uncomfortable hence it should be removed right? I didn't think so. This isn't asking for some game breaking omgwtfrainbowunicorn cannon that one shots everything. It's about wanting to pursue a story like everyone else gets to experience that me and quite a few others wish we could.

And actually here in Britain it is higher, it's something like 1 in 15/16 people as far as I remember seeing.
Also, saying if you can be gay in the game, can you also be a homophobe to balance it out.. That's like saying let's add a black guy but add a racist option just to balance it out right?

[hotdogbsg]

Would the guys/gals in favour of same sex romance in the next game be satisfied with the introduction of a gay character(s)? Or would you want the option of exisiting characters to romance as well?

[Saeran]

I would like either option, but personally I would prefer a new character altogether.

[We Tigers]

catabuca wrote...

I'd also say that, in addition to us being able to discuss the 'pre-defined protagonist' issue in a new light, we can do the same with the idea of 'opening up' old characters to be bisexual when they hadn't expressed that side of sexuality before. Case in point: Anders.

Not to rain on your parade, but I think this is still a bit different from Kaidan.  This is the first time Anders is a love interest in that franchise; he has not previously been identified through his interaction with the player character as gay, straight, or a c-c-c-combo breaker that will go either way.  Kaidan has been a love interest, and only for straight female Shepard.

I'm glad you're happy, but this is more like if Garrus had been revealed as a gay romance option in ME2 than if Kaidan had.

[ElitePinecone]

 A few things:

- Shepard isn't a he. Shepard can be male, or female. Female Shepard can already have a same-sex relationship with Kelly (and, arguably, Liara), thereby "pandering" to the section of the audience that appreciates lesbian romances. 
- Stereotypes suck. Please don't rely on outdated notions and assumed behaviour. Glitter is dangerous in space, y'know. 
- This post might go some way to explain Bioware's mindset on this issue. That is, resources allowing, they will try to include content to satisfy all players.
- I absolutely agree that there must be priorities, and it's been explained that (in some cases) s/s romances were cut because of time or budget constraints. The purpose of this thread is to show that support for the inclusion of this romances is large enough, we believe, to warrant their inclusion.
- Telometric data from DAO showed that significantly more (a surprising number, even) players played through the Male Warden/Zevran romances than Bioware expected, considering the proportion of presumably gay or bisexual male players.

@hotdogbsg: This has been debated so many times that I don't think it would be worth going over it again. Basically put, I think most people would love a new romance option for both genders of Shepard for ME3. An opportunity to romance characters that were once intended to be bisexual (Kaidan/Ashley) via either DLC or in ME3 would be welcome, but I don't really see it happening. I don't think many other ME2 characters will return significantly in ME3 anyway, given logistical issues, so this is a bit of a moot point.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Aurgelmir wrote...

Its the pandering to a minority that I take particular issue with. If it suits the story, or if the story the designers are trying to tell work either way then maybe the occasional option or character here or there isn't a bad thing. Its when siginificant amounts of content are added to the game in order to appease a vocal minority, thats when I begin to think 'Was this the right design choice'. For me a large part of it is how much work the devs put in for which players.

My argument, and I often use this, is fem shep. I got the impression from looking around the forums that it was a popular choice however the metrics said otherwise, only 20% of players. Now when I think of the sheer amount of work in making that I have to wonder could there time not have been spent doing other things for everyone to enjoy.

Yeah. To me, this says that you think you're squarely in the majority. Also, that you think the majority should never have to give up dev resources for things they want, if there's a minority somewhere that might want something the majority doesn't care about. Which is a damned shame, because that sort of thing just ends up reinforcing existing expectations, and the vaunted majority never end up getting to try anything different or new. Like an MWarden/Zevran romance in DA, for example.

Let's do consider FemShep. The holy metrics said 80% of players played as MShep...NOT that 20% of players used FemShep. The number of people who played FemShep was unknown - we can assume 20% of players used FemShep exclusively, but not that only 20% of players used her at all. Additionally, how many purchasers of the game fed their information back to BioWare? I know I didn't...I only play offline, and didn't allow for game feedback when I logged in for patches. I recall also that Soldier outstripped every other class - checking the Gamasutra screenshot, more people played Soldier than played every other class combined (the usage stats for Engineers were especially horrible). So, why have any other class?

Finally, I'll point out your last comment: "I have to wonder could there time not have been spent doing other things for everyone to enjoy." Note the emphasis. You are not everyone. Neither am I. But you and I are part of 'everyone', just like gay and bi gamers are. Your prospective change - removing FemShep from the lineup because insufficient players are assumed to have used her - does not serve 'everyone.' Removing her for, say, additional levels or guns also doesn't serve 'everyone,' because if BioWare ever puts out a game where playing as a member of my own sex is not an option, I will neither purchase nor play that game. And as soon as I'm out - or anyone else, for that matter - you've lost the elusive 'everyone.'

At least have the decency to be honest. You don't care if 'everyone' is served...only that you are. You don't see the point in using dev resources for things you don't want to use, which is fine. I think most people on these forums don't, and they all think something different should be the focus. But don't indicate that people who want different things than you, who want those resources spent on things they would enjoy, are expecting BioWare to 'pander' to them, any more than you are. Because 'everyone' isn't served by the choices BioWare makes....only some of the people, some of the time. Which is pretty much all they can hope for.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 05 mars 2011 - 01:10 .

[Aurgelmir]

Shephard's sex is relative to the person describing him, in my case it's a 'he'.

I'm not aware of the telemetric data for DA:O but it would be an intresting read.

I think I've pretty much made all the points I can about it. I think, despite Bioware saying otherwise, we will start seeing quotas of bisexual/gay characters in their future games. Only the metrics will show if its popular enough to justify the time they spend on it.

P.S. I think reactions like yours Temper_Graniteskul is one of the reasons that people, such as myself, stay away from topics like this. It should be debated without ranting attacks.

Modifié par Aurgelmir, 05 mars 2011 - 01:15 .

[Eternal Dust]

Aurgelmir wrote...
Okay well I dont know what its like in the rest of the world but in Britain its something like 1.5% of the populaton who are bisexual or gay according to the ONS. Now in Ferelden it must be something much higher because they keep seeming to pop-up. In Ferelden thats fine, but in this worlds spacey future we have to assume its a similar number. Now, statisticly speaking, my chances of coming across someone that way inclined are rare.

Really, now? We're going to try to apply real world statistics into a video game that takes place in the 22nd century? You forget that it's also the 22nd century where humans can mate with asari and Krogans have four testicles and someone who dies and gets obliterated in outer space can be brought back to life. But homosexuals? Never! Why, the nerve!

This is Shepards story, yes you can make certain decisions, but the designer has a very clear Idea about who Shepard is and it clearly isn't someone that way inclined. I'm not trying to stereotype here, but he really doesen't give off that vibe, in the same way that Rambo or McClane don't give off that vibe. In the designers head he is your typical all action hero who gets the girl and saves the world.

So? Hawke has a story, but that still doesn't limit the fact that s/he can be gay if the player chooses it.

My last point is this. Why should they include gay characters? I'm playing devils advocate here, but gay players are minority, a vocal one, but a minority. Time spent on something a small amout of the player base can enjoy could be spent on designing and implementing parts of the game for all players to enjoy, or the majority of players to enjoy.

You're making the false assumption that gay content can only be accessible to gay players. That's completely untrue. Straight players also enjoy it as a part of roleplaying. In fact, the FFTL group was created by a straight, male player!

Now as I've said before I have no problems to gay characters in the game, but I think its not something that would work well in Mass Effect. If it was implemented in Mass Effect it should be implemented in an optional DLC. If players want to play it as a gay person then they can, but I don't think there should be a gay companion in the core of the game.

Why wouldn't it work well? You already have asari flirting with Female Shepard. There's also Kelly. Would it hurt anyone if they actually put the work into trying to flesh out the characters so that they aren't some walking Hollywood stereotype that everyone seems to be so afraid of?

[Eternal Dust]

SkyeHawk89 wrote...

I could answer your question, it is because Shepard is straight.

That's news to me since my Female Shepard is very much gay and sleeps with anything remotely resembling female, especially asari. She also didn't mind a free lap dance from Kelly, either.

[Cootie]

SkyeHawk89 wrote...

 I know the Asari doesn't count because they are not male and female.

Except for every other species. If an asari would woo another asari, that's as straight as they can get for them. But if any other girl of any other species (of the ones available, anyway) has a naughty thought about them, they are perceived as female, therefore making the attraction a homosexual one.

The asari are monogendered. One gender. That's female.
I think this is all debunked in the first post, though. I'll have to take a look sometime.

Shepard can be gay, there's nothing in the game that suggests otherwise, except for the lack of other non-straight men to snog.
Besides, my FemShep is also homosexual. Or is that just a phase she's going through?

[Agamo45]

[Comment removed.]

Modifié par Pacifien, 05 mars 2011 - 03:11 .

[purplerose1414]

I love how most people opposed to same sex romances completely ignore how Shepard could be gay as heck in ME1, they just turned off the romancable flag and three lines of dialogue are missing. Not to mention that those who aren't trolls are most likely indulging in a majority bias, which David Gaider of Dragon Age wrote wonderfully on.

[quote]
David Gaider wrote...

3) Persuant to the above, beware of majority privelage. It's very easy for people who don't have an
issue that the minority feel (and this applies to race and gender-- in
gaming, particularly-- as well as to sexual orientation) to believe
that something is "not a problem". "I don't see why you're so uptight about
it!" Realize when you make these sorts of comments that you have no idea
what you're talking about, for all our sakes. You don't know what it  feels like to be marginalized, and it behooves those in the majority to use at least a modicum of sensitivity when it comes to  addressing such issues. No, games aren't a platform for social change, but that doesn't mean we are also absent of responsibility when we include content in our games where such issues can arise. If we were to claim "majority  privilege"as our only guide, we do nothing but add to the problem.
That said, we do face other limitations-- not least of which,
as I said, is that this isn't the point of the game and thus is only
ever going to get limited resources.[/quote]

[/quote]

Modifié par purplerose1414, 05 mars 2011 - 07:21 .

[ElitePinecone]

Just a reminder to please refrain from replying to or quoting offensive posts. There's a level of immaturity and sheer ignorance that can't be reasoned with.

[ThomasAM]

I support heterosexual and homosexual relationships in ME3

[ThomasAM]

i support homosexual relationships in ME3

[catabuca]

Several of my male and female Shepards are gay. What happens in my game happens in my game, and not one person can tell me otherwise.

[catabuca]

Thanks for your support Thomas!

[ThomasAM]

But as long as the game makes it obvious you are romancing someone a option in the menu shouldn't be nescarry

[Liou]

I am all for it.

Personaly, i wouldn't be interested in pursuing a gay relationship but i do think it's very unfair to gay men and people who want to play a gay shepard that they don't offers it since the game features heterosexual and lesbian love interests.

[catabuca]

@Thomas - it will be interesting to see how the intent icons in DA2 work. Any flirtatious or romantic lines have a symbol in the middle of the wheel so no one will pick romantic dialogue that might lead somewhere unkowingly. That is, actually, along similar lines to what many have suggesting in this thread for months now.

@Liou - it is unfair, isn't it? Regardless of whether asari are meant to be canonically female or not, when a gamer looks at them they see the female form, hear a female voice, listen to the female pronouns ... they are romancing a female. So fShep can have a lesbian romance, but mShep can't have a gay one. That unbalance is offensive.

[Sahariel]

Just to throw in some thoughts about same sex couplings in Mass Effect. I am increasingly of the view that same sex options should exist where possible. We come to games to have experiences we don't find in real life, I'm straight and male and I love the excitement and involvement games like Mass Effect provide. I obviously don't own a spaceship, shoot guns and save galaxies in my day to day life, but it sure is fun to make pretend once in awhile. Is it then therefore too much to ask, to allow people who are very much marginalised in our real world societies to escape to a place where that is no longer an issue?

[Polliot]

ThomasAM wrote...

i support homosexual relationships in ME3

I definitely do NOT.

BioWare,please don't do it!