9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Saeran]

Polliot wrote...

ThomasAM wrote...

i support homosexual relationships in ME3

I definitely do NOT.

BioWare,please don't do it!

That's a nice argument for why it shouldn't be added you have there.

[Polliot]

Saeran wrote...

Polliot wrote...

ThomasAM wrote...

i support homosexual relationships in ME3

I definitely do NOT.

BioWare,please don't do it!

That's a nice argument for why it shouldn't be added you have there.

Yes,like this one I quoted,but then again nobody questioned that.

[Saeran]

Polliot wrote...

Saeran wrote...

Polliot wrote...

ThomasAM wrote...

i support homosexual relationships in ME3

I definitely do NOT.

BioWare,please don't do it!

That's a nice argument for why it shouldn't be added you have there.

Yes,like this one I quoted,but then again nobody questioned that.

Read the first post in this thread. This is a thread for fans who would like this do be an addition, not a "Do you think...?" thread. Come up with a sensible, viable reason for it to not be introduced that hasn't been addressed on the front page then maybe your post wouldn't be questioned.

[catabuca]

Sahariel wrote...

Just to throw in some thoughts about same sex couplings in Mass Effect. I am increasingly of the view that same sex options should exist where possible. We come to games to have experiences we don't find in real life, I'm straight and male and I love the excitement and involvement games like Mass Effect provide. I obviously don't own a spaceship, shoot guns and save galaxies in my day to day life, but it sure is fun to make pretend once in awhile. Is it then therefore too much to ask, to allow people who are very much marginalised in our real world societies to escape to a place where that is no longer an issue?

Great post, Sahariel

Adding an extra layer, and an extra choice, to the game only makes things better. Those who do not want to pursue s/s romances need not. Those who do, finally have an equal choice like everyone else.

[ReallyRue]

I'm pretty late to this, but still, I support same sex romance whole-heartedly.

If DA2 can have romances for both ****** and heterosexual, there's no reason ME shouldn't. In fact considering that ME's world is supposed to be a future version of our own (more or less), then it's even more absurd that society wouldn't have progressed any further in its acceptance of homosexual love than the early 21st century. I was sorely disappointed by the lack of same sex options in ME2, and the way Liara's s/s romance has been written off by some as 'but she's not female'.

The 'Shepard is a predefined character' is also a nonsensical argument. I mean, how would being attractive to the same sex affect Shepard's 'pre-defined' personality (thought Shepard was unique to each player anyway). Those who wanted a straight Shep would play him/her straight, Those who wanted a gay or bi Shep would play them gay or bi. My Shepards certainly aren't pre-defined as straight. I have one male Shepard who has been alone since ME1.

After all, if all sorts of species can fall at the feet of Shepard when he/she is the opposite sex, then why not the same sex?

[Liou]

@Liou - it is unfair, isn't it? Regardless of whether asari are meant to be canonically female or not, when a gamer looks at them they see the female form, hear a female voice, listen to the female pronouns ... they are romancing a female. So fShep can have a lesbian romance, but mShep can't have a gay one. That unbalance is offensive.

Yes i'll never learn to understand the Asari isn't technically women argument either. Sure i know that but it sure  as hell isn't because of their masculine traits that many fans like them, Even in the ME universe itself they are generaly considered female by humans and many other races even though everyone know that "technically" they aren't. And since Kelly Chambers is a romance option for both sexes, the argument is worth nothing anyway.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be against it if you consider it a waste of time and money because you won't use it anyway and lets face it, BioWare dosn't have unlimited resources but anything other than that strikes me as a bit homophobic.

[earthbornFemShep]

I think the stats and response from DA:O as well as this thread and other online discussions have proven our point that a lot of gamers WANT this option. There are also some great BWSN groups out there supporting this as well.

As mentioned previously, not everyone who supports this is or has to be gay or bi. It is not a requirement to be gay/bi IRL to play Shep as such. (Just as it is not a requirement to be straight IRL to play Shep as such.) I'm not a guy, but I have a few male Shepards. Therefore I'm also not a straight guy, bi dude or gay man, but that doesn't mean that some of my Shepards aren't. I also have some straight/bi femSheps, but I'm not straight or bi. Most of my femSheps are gay and are either in a relationship with Liara, Kelli, Ashley (hacked), or no one (as they haven't found someone who meets their fancy).

Does this mean I'm playing the game wrong? No. It just means I like to have a game with a lot of options and replay value. LIs help to add those differences in replay value--just like changing your decisions, alignment, class, sex, and backstory change the experience and add great replay value.

We can argue the "morality" issue elsewhere. We can argue the percentage of gay people existing on Earth elsewhere as well. We can't declare that gay people don't exist or that every Shepard is unarguably straight. Adding an option won't ruin the game, just like it didn't ruin the DA games.

Modifié par earthbornFemShep, 06 mars 2011 - 09:59 .

[earthbornFemShep]

ElitePinecone wrote...
To be as objective as I can be given the circumstances, I think it's important (or at least fair) to acknowledge that there are a huge number of (probable, plausible) reasons why s/s content never made it into both games - tightly managed and limited budgets, resources, timing, marketability, and yes, perhaps some wariness of a backlash from shooter fans. David Gaider has outlined this in other areas, emphasizing that budgets really are limited and prone to the exigencies of development that necessitate cuts - which is all Bioware's perogative, after all.

I can understand the resources argument.  Bioware does not have unlimited resources and must allocate them wisely.  But, as with all business decisions, you need to measure the ROI (return on investment).  The ROI of adding s/s romance options is intangible and hard to measure.  However, I will say this:

The reason I kept my preorder of Dragon Age II is because when I played the demo game as LadyHawke, Isabella made a subtle pass at me.  I thought, "Wow, out in the open s/s options? Sweet.  I'll give this game a try." 

It is a surprisingly powerful and uplifting feeling when a game gives you an option like this.  Many white straight male players may not understand this because most games cater to that demographic.  (How many video game heros can you name that are straight, white men? Quite a few, right?  Now what about women? blacks? hispanics? etc, etc.)  When games first gave players the option to play as a female, it was a much similar feeling.  Finally, females had a character that they could own.  We could be a female character that was more than just the princess trapped in a castle, useless hinderance in an escort mission, a joke, or T&A left in for entertainment.  That ownership of a character is powerful whether it be relative to race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, or nationality.

Now, developers are including even more options to reflect ourselves and our choices in the characters we play.  We don't want to play a stereotype or see stereotypical (or downright insulting) squaddies included as jokes or for mockery.  Seeing a strong, well-adjusted character that the player can relate to is very positive. 

EDIT: spacing.

Modifié par earthbornFemShep, 06 mars 2011 - 11:00 .

[ElitePinecone]

earthbornFemShep wrote...
That ownership of a character is powerful whether it be relative to race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, or nationality.

Now, developers are including even more options to reflect ourselves and our choices in the characters we play.  We don't want to play a stereotype or see stereotypical (or downright insulting) squaddies included as jokes or for mockery.  Seeing a strong, well-adjusted character that the player can relate to is very positive. 

I completely agree with you here, and we shouldn't discount the extraordinarily powerful social impact of non-gaming-mainstream character identities - gender, sexual, racial, social and so on - being represented in modern games. 

That being said, Bioware isn't an affirmitive-action paradigm-shifting activism collective, and (in my view) it should include minority characters because there's a substantial market for them, not just because it seems politically or socially apposite. Bioware regularly treats its customers as adults and features mature discussions of topics that we'd never find in the majority of Hollywood movies, let alone video games. It justifiably invests in the writing team and for the most part I think that pays off very well. There's a longstanding debate about whether gaming is entertainment or approaches an art form, some of the best moments of Mass Effect 2 (and, similarly, DAO and ME) veer towards art precisely because they refuse to be cliched or indulge in an easy answer. 

David Gaider has suggested that he'll always (as a writer) include these sorts of characters where resources permit, and I think it's wonderful (and probably illuminating) that Bioware is one of the only developers to do this regularly. 

To emphasize: more diverse romance plots make for a better game because they run against the gamut of bland plots that constitute many other contemporary game stories. There is a substantial market for nuanced, mature and sophisticated content that appeals to more than a superficial apperciation for storytelling, and this extends far beyond whatever proportion of the population that would welcome s/s content. 

[J. Finley]

Sure, why not?

Modifié par Jayman1337, 08 mars 2011 - 12:26 .

[Cootie]

Oh, boy, I sure loved it when Garrus started hitting on me.

Oh, boy, I sure loved it when Tali started hitting on me but then acted as if nothing awkward ever happened.

THAT FRICKIN' SHIP MAINTENANCE.

Anyway, my point is that the "ruining of existing characters" has already happened, but it's okay since it's heterosexual(*coughinterspeciesrelationscough*)?
Why, I sure didn't think Garrus was interested in my Shepard in the first game. They sure wrecked his character, eh?

[catabuca]

Cootie wrote...

Oh, boy, I sure loved it when Garrus started hitting on me.

Oh, boy, I sure loved it when Tali started hitting on me but then acted as if nothing awkward ever happened.

THAT FRICKIN' SHIP MAINTENANCE.

Anyway, my point is that the "ruining of existing characters" has already happened, but it's okay since it's heterosexual(*coughinterspeciesrelationscough*)?
Why, I sure didn't think Garrus was interested in my Shepard in the first game. They sure wrecked his character, eh?

I completely agree with you.

It does seem as though adding a heterosexual romance option to an existing character that players may have formed a platonic attachment to already is absolutely fine, but to do the same for a homosexual romance option would be somehow different?

As far as I'm concerned, all that attitude shows is that some don't believe homosexual relationships are equal or as 'normal' as straight ones. And that's a real shame.

[Siansonea]

Count me among the "what character continuity?" camp. Tali and Garrus were completely changed for ME2, something I hadn't really realized until I recently went back and played ME1 again. Garrus in ME1 was a chafing C-Sec functionary, and he even told me he was going to go back to C-Sec and seek Spectre training. Guess that didn't work out, huh? So much for "Paragoning" Garrus. And Tali—I just couldn't bring myself to talk to her, I do not need to hear the 411 on the geth/Pilgrimage/quarian BS for the nth time. But I do remember her being rather neutral with Shepard, not even a hint of incipient Sheplove. So, since those two characters were already co-opted by fanbase demands, it wouldn't really be against precedent for Kaidan or Ashley to also suddenly "change" to be interested in sames-sex Shepard. We've been down this road before, and all the arguments to keep Kaidan and Ashley heterosexual really just seem to boil down to "because I don't want them to be gay/bi, dammit". Well, I didn't want Tali to turn into a stammering Shepard fangirl, but I guess what I wanted didn't really matter, did it? The point is, there are numerous ways same-sex relationships can be introduced into the game, and no matter what method they use, there's a chance that it will be an outstanding success or an epic failure. All I hope for is a) that they are included and that they are well-written. Beyond that, BioWare has a pretty wide degree of latitude, either with new or existing characters.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 07 mars 2011 - 05:52 .

[Eternal Dust]

earthbornFemShep wrote...

The reason I kept my preorder of Dragon Age II is because when I played the demo game as LadyHawke, Isabella made a subtle pass at me.  I thought, "Wow, out in the open s/s options? Sweet.  I'll give this game a try." 

This is one of the reasons why I will try to support Dragon Age 2 as much as I can.

[catabuca]

Siansonea II wrote...

Count me among the "what character continuity?" camp. Tali and Garrus were completely changed for ME2, something I hadn't really realized until I recently went back and played ME1 again. Garrus in ME1 was a chafing C-Sec functionary, and he even told me he was going to go back to C-Sec and seek Spectre training. Guess that didn't work out, huh? So much for "Paragoning" Garrus. And Tali—I just couldn't bring myself to talk to her, I do not need to hear the 411 on the geth/Pilgrimage/quarian BS for the nth time. But I do remember her being rather neutral with Shepard, not even a hint of incipient Sheplove. So, since those two characters were already co-opted by fanbase demands, it wouldn't really be against precedent for Kaidan or Ashley to also suddenly "change" to be interested in sames-sex Shepard. We've been down this road before, and all the arguments to keep Kaidan and Ashley heterosexual really just seem to boil down to "because I don't want them to be gay/bi, dammit". Well, I didn't want Tali to turn into a stammering Shepard fangirl, but I guess what I wanted didn't really matter, did it? The point is, there are numerous ways same-sex relationships can be introduced into the game, and no matter what method they use, there's a chance that it will be an outstanding success or an epic failure. All I hope for is a) that they are included and that they are well-written. Beyond that, BioWare has a pretty wide degree of latitude, either with new or existing characters.

So very well said, Sian.

Some people are incredibly possessive about 'their' favourite characters, and that of course has an effect as well. To suggest introducing a romance sub-plot to Tali and Garrus is inherently different to introducing a bisexual romance sub-plot to others only highlights so very clearly that homosexuality is being viewed as 'less acceptable' than heterosexuality. Plain and simple.

I've heard all the arguments about 'characterisation' since this thread began (and before), and each and every single one of them sounds like a desperate plea for a favourite character not to be 'taken away' from whoever is doing the arguing. Adding an option does not equate to taking something away.

But yes, you are right, the most important thing here is that s/s romance is represented in ME3 in some way, and on an equal footing to the o/s romances. How that is implemented is up to the team (should they acutally be allowed to implement it as planned this time). All we can do is carry on expressing our desire for that content; and occasionally trying to lighten the mood by discussing the ways we'd love to see it happen. Because let's face it, this darned thread gets too gloomy at times, and we all need some fun too, right? :happy:

Modifié par catabuca, 07 mars 2011 - 06:11 .

[catabuca]

octoberfire wrote...

earthbornFemShep wrote...

The reason I kept my preorder of Dragon Age II is because when I played the demo game as LadyHawke, Isabella made a subtle pass at me.  I thought, "Wow, out in the open s/s options? Sweet.  I'll give this game a try." 

This is one of the reasons why I will try to support Dragon Age 2 as much as I can.

Me too. The way the DA (O & 2) team (and management - perhaps most importantly, in our case) have expressed support for inclusiveness is wonderful, and should be supported to the full.

[Siansonea]

I preordered Dragon Age 2 myself, and I'd like to say it's primarily because of the s/s inclusion, but to be honest it was more about the voiced protagonist. I just couldn't connect with Dragon Age Origins because of the silent main character. Mass Effect has spoiled me. I am very pleased at the inclusiveness of Dragon Age though, and I plan on playing through at least once with m/m and f/f romances. I will of course do o/s romances too. I like variety in my player characters. I can't wait to get my hands on the character creator interface, I love designing faces.

[catabuca]

The cc looks excellent this time around, definitely. I've been watching the custom Hawke thread will gleeful anticipation:D

And I'm the same, I'm happy for a voiced protagonist as well. And I think it's awesome that 'pre-defined' Hawke can still be gay, lesbian or bisexual as the player wishes.

[Cootie]

I was actually very nervous about the voiced protagonist, feeling like it'd be the same thing all over again. Hawke being pre-defined and whatnot.
Dragon Age 2 might just make it on to my favourite game shelf because of the way it pushes the boundaries... since I'm such a "Gaming is an artform"-ist.

[Deejtage]

Hey guys! It's been awhile since I've been here, but I'm pretty sure I remember signing-up for this "Fight For the Love" group! I'm totally in support of same-sex romances in the next ME, and I'd be all-over that seeing as I'm gay myself honestly xD But yeah, just thought I'd post here to show my support. As far as how I think it should be implemented, if it were, I don't mind either way: I loved Sian and Cootie's arguement for the possibility of a Kaidan/Ashley romance, couldn't have said it better myself. But I'm also open for a new character as well when it comes to this. Either way, if Bioware were to implent (please oh please!) then I'm sure they'd do a great job with it!

[Quething]

Joker? Really? I can almost see the logic in "don't make Ashley gay, she didn't hit on my femShep before," because she hit on your dudeShep and thus why wouldn't she hit on your femShep if she was into it, right. It's not a good argument even in a world without Tali and Garrus, but I can at least get where it comes from.

But Joker's never hit on anybody. Or said anything about a sex partner of any kind. At any point. In any way. Even the jokes about his porn collection are so unspecific as to indicate absolutely nothing decisive whatsoever about his sexuality. What exactly could possibly lead anyone to try to legitimately argue that Joker was "straight" in the first two games and so must also be straight in ME3? Where does that even come from? He doesn't have a lisp, so he must dig the ladies? o.O

Honestly he's the single best candidate IMO. He's a male human so they can't hide behind the weird asari "it's not gay if it's a monogendered alien" bullspit, he's been around since the first game so he has just as much impact and characterization and story importance as the most prominent het romances, he was a fully-developed platonic character first so he's got depth and personality beyond "love interest" which makes him a better and more effective love interest and character, he's a guaranteed returning cast member for every Shep regardless of story choices, his devotion to Shepard is well-established and his disability and respect for the chain of command offer reasonable excuses for why he hasn't mentioned his crush yet despite having four years and two games to stew over it.

I mean, my dudeShep will still be hoping for Kaidan, but BioWare could do a lot worse than choosing Joker for ME3 s/s, is all I'm saying.

[catabuca]

Quething, you make an excellent case and, even as someone who isn't really that excited about the idea of a Jokermance, I can't fault a word of your reasoning.

[Sahariel]

Persuasive though that argument is, I was hoping they were going somewhere with his flirtations with EDI, that may sound strange but remember that EDI is sentient AI and I very much like the idea of love transcending all boundaries, including physical ones.

[ElitePinecone]

@Quething:

I can't see any problems with your logic, and it'd be perfectly reasonable for Joker to be a romance option. From a practical standpoint, though, a few issues seem to present themselves. Firstly, he's been built up (arguably) as a comic-relief character with a heart of gold, a ready quip and a lot of banter with Shepard and the crew. I'm not saying that he couldn't have a serious side and be open for a romance (and I'd tend to think it'd be with either gender, for resource issues) - but that Bioware may be keeping him as a relatively two-dimensional 'funny joker' Joker.

There were attempts to humanise him in the first game through the details of his disease and training at the academy, and in number two with some of the chats about old crewmembers and being abandoned by the Alliance, but I can't see that turning into an uplifting tale of romance and love found.

Also, as much as it pains me to say it, I don't think such a decision would get a very positive reaction from (some presumably shooter-loving, young) fans. You've seen the number of posts this thread gets from people worried that 'their bro Garrus' will catch teh gay, or that a space marine can't be gay because all they've ever heard are stereotypes. Joker is very much a "young adult male ship-driving American fantasy"; having him as a romance option for maleShep (and fem Shep) would be pretty groundbreaking and a great way to explore the theme in context, but I just can't see it happening.

I'm more in favour of [a] (new) well-rounded and well-written character(s) with some emotional depth. Mass Effect's strength lies in its maturity and (relative) willingness to treat its audience as though they have a modicum of intelligence, unlike other games pitched at teenagers. It would be tremendous if the characters lived up to this maturity.

[FataliTensei]

earthbornFemShep wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...
To be as objective as I can be given the circumstances, I think it's important (or at least fair) to acknowledge that there are a huge number of (probable, plausible) reasons why s/s content never made it into both games - tightly managed and limited budgets, resources, timing, marketability, and yes, perhaps some wariness of a backlash from shooter fans. David Gaider has outlined this in other areas, emphasizing that budgets really are limited and prone to the exigencies of development that necessitate cuts - which is all Bioware's perogative, after all.

I can understand the resources argument.  Bioware does not have unlimited resources and must allocate them wisely.  But, as with all business decisions, you need to measure the ROI (return on investment).  The ROI of adding s/s romance options is intangible and hard to measure.  However, I will say this:

The reason I kept my preorder of Dragon Age II is because when I played the demo game as LadyHawke, Isabella made a subtle pass at me.  I thought, "Wow, out in the open s/s options? Sweet.  I'll give this game a try." 

It is a surprisingly powerful and uplifting feeling when a game gives you an option like this.  Many white straight male players may not understand this because most games cater to that demographic.  (How many video game heros can you name that are straight, white men? Quite a few, right?  Now what about women? blacks? hispanics? etc, etc.)  When games first gave players the option to play as a female, it was a much similar feeling.  Finally, females had a character that they could own.  We could be a female character that was more than just the princess trapped in a castle, useless hinderance in an escort mission, a joke, or T&A left in for entertainment.  That ownership of a character is powerful whether it be relative to race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, or nationality.

Now, developers are including even more options to reflect ourselves and our choices in the characters we play.  We don't want to play a stereotype or see stereotypical (or downright insulting) squaddies included as jokes or for mockery.  Seeing a strong, well-adjusted character that the player can relate to is very positive. 

EDIT: spacing.

Awesome post, very well-written and an excellent point made.