9243 réponses à ce sujet

[DSGrant]

Nyoka wrote...

DSGrant wrote...

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if Bioware added bisexual or homosexual romance options to Shepard. HOWEVER, what I do NOT want to see is this forced on us, or warping established characters so that they can fit into a more loosely defined sexual orientation.

You don't want homosexual romance forced on you. But you are totally okay with heterosexual romance forced on gay people.

While I realize your response is baited, I'll reply anyway. The OP asked for opinions and/or support for the suggestion, I gave mine. This isn't about whether you agree with it or not, nor is it really fair to ask for support and then to criticize the manner in which it is given. I didn't create the game the way it is. If you have an issue with the sexual orientation of the main character, take it up with Bioware directly, not with me.

[diskoh]

There is no romance or sexuality forced on anyone in the game. It's all entirely optional. This is about giving the option to create a richer gameplay experience, not about forcing anyone's views on anyone. People on both sides of the discussion need to remember that.

[lltoon]

I just hope it doesn't come down to that...

Modifié par lltoon, 31 mars 2011 - 06:08 .

[Foxhound2020]

Saeran wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I know this response is a day old, but I felt the need to respond to this.

1) Yes, that's my response to them as well.

2) Ultimately, the devs make the call, but we as consumers influence it. The majority usually are the ones that influence decisions.

And the "majority" probably couldn't care less if there was a gay romance option available as they would go no where near it.

Seriously, what difference would it make to YOU if there was an option for somebody ELSE? This isn't a case of well one must take away if one were to give. You won't lose all your past "hot women" escapades in your past playthroughs. Why is it so important to you that some of us shouldn't have an option? I don't feel entitlement, I feel disappointment at the lack of choice in a game heavily pushed with a motto of "choice is important".

What game have you been playing? There is an option for gay players. There was gay options in ME1 and ME2, so why are you complaining? You make it sound like you have been completely neglected and you are grossly dramatizing.

Modifié par Foxhound2020, 31 mars 2011 - 06:17 .

[ReiSilver]

Foxhound2020 wrote...

What game have you been playing? There is an option for gay players. There was gay options in ME1 and ME2, so why are you complaining? You make it sound like you have been completely neglected and you are grossly dramatizing.

Yeah I totally remember that guy my male Shepard could sleep wi- oh right. Never existed outside of audio clips that were cut.... yeah.

The only homosexual relationship you can pursue is if you're a female shepard with an asari or Kelly. And even then Bioware is quick to back peddle with "Well Asari aren't even really women so it doesn't count." and "Kelly isn't really a full romance."
So yes, those parts of the audiance ARE being completely neglected as you put it.

[Lee337]

The problem with adding in homosexual characters is that for every gay person, there is a homophobic person. I know many many more homophobes than gays, it's different in gay communities and such sure but I don't belong to any specific circles and the people I know come from many different backgrounds and places, I think that it is a relatively good representation of peoples opinions.

Although homosexuals are a minority, I don't think it's fair to leave them out, just because I don't like it, I think there are comprimises to be found.

I have no problem with there being gay options in Mass Effect, but what I don''t want is a forced situation like Zevran, he makes advances no matter what, I don't like it. Anders, maybe due to a bug, also makes advancse and gets angry when you turn him down.Would ruin the game for me.

If the romance was initialised only by Shepard with a clearly marked dialougue line, like the heart symbol in DA2, then I think I'd be ok with it. As long as they really made sure there were no bugs in the system and I don't end up with loads of Anders. This would be a little unfair I think to gay people as while the hetrosexuals would get them acting interested, the gays wouldn't. But that is probablly realistic enough, as Shepard doesn't seem gay and the squuaddies might just assume he is straight and not ask.

What I'd really like is the option to block homosexual dialouge lines in the settings, which would stop any chance of accidently initialising it. If the squaddies are the ones to initialise the conversation asking if Shep is interested, the block could bypass that line too. I think this would be fair.

[ElitePinecone]

Lee337 wrote...
snip

I think your point about clearly marked dialogue choices and player-initiated romances is a reasonable compromise to make. 

David Gaider (the lead DA2 writer) said that in retrospect he might not have made Anders so forthright in his advances, and that it might've been good to leave it to the player to start anything. 

But a block on advances just because you feel uncomfortable? The world doesn't end when someone tentatively asks about your intentions. It's extremely easy to reject anything unwanted - and I know because I've had to reject at least five squadmates. Ashley, Liara, Miranda, Tali, Jack, Samara, Morinth, plus an unwanted and invited approach from Gianna Parasini and Shiala the colonist on Illium. 

Edit: BBCode fail...

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 31 mars 2011 - 07:05 .

[Lee337]

If it was just one character, then I'd have no issues. Even given the block, I wouldn't use it, as one character would feel realistic enough. The block is more of an idea for if they went DA2 style and made most charcters bi. I don't like it, makes me very uncomfortable, but I am willing to deal with it for just one character. All or most of them however would really make me not want to talk to the characters.
The reason I said it should be a block is so that it is not prejudice against the gay community by making it a turn on switch, it's just there for those who really don't like it.
The world doesn't end if you can't romance characters of the same sex, why put them in just because a minority wants it? Arguement works both ways.
People keep saying, why do you care it doesn't affect you, just don't persue the romance.
Same arguement for the option to block. It won't affect you, it won't end your world, change your game, it has no negative effects for anyone playing the game, it only affects those who don't want it and gives them the option of playing without it.
The only reason I can see for someone to object to it is that you take offence that there are people who don't like it. Unfortunately thats a fact of life, and while you may take offence that there is a block, there will be an equal number of people who are offended that the option to romance same sex is in it all. There for I think it's fair. If I can accept that you play your game with s/s relationships, I would hope that you would be able to accept that I don't.

[PirateT138]

Unwelcome advances from either sex are just that, unwelcome. I don't want to have to shoot down 1/2 my companions because they're all busy trying to get into my pants when we need to be saving the damn universe.

Player initiated everything.

[DxWill10]

Not to fret, homophobes. Feel safe in the fact that, if this is implemented, no character is going to inflate your insecurity by hitting on you. I'm sure it will all be player initiated it. Homos make you feel insecure? Don't instigate a relationship. Problem solved.

[Lee337]

DxWill10 wrote...

Not to fret, homophobes. Feel safe in the fact that, if this is implemented, no character is going to inflate your insecurity by hitting on you. I'm sure it will all be player initiated it. Homos make you feel insecure? Don't instigate a relationship. Problem solved.

Nice and condensending there.
If gays judge homophobics they are no better than the homophobics judging them.

The problem with the player initiated relationships is that you dont get anyone flirting with you, it would feel like you had to force it. Liara for example wouldn't have expressed the interest that she does.

[wackyzacky1991]

[quote]Lee337 wrote...

[quote]DxWill10 wrote...


If gays judge homophobics they are no better than the homophobics judging them.





[/quote]

how?

[Lee337]

You screwed up the quotes there!
If a homophobe expresses his dislike of gays, and a gay expresses his dislike of homophobes there is no difference.
A gay attacks a homophobe, and homophobe attacks a gay, each insulting each other, acting hostile to one another, it both sides do the same things then they aren't any different.

I have gay friends, bi friends too, and so long as they do not make advances on me, I am O.K with them gay, it doesn't affect me, but I still get very very uncomfortable and quite edgy if advances are made. I get angry quite quickly if they don't back off first time, I wouldn't get angry if a women was persistant. I also feel a bit sick when seeing men kiss, and I don't like seeing them hold hands or hug either.
These things aren't something I can control, it's not a choice that I feel this way, what I can choose is how I act etc.
A gay person isn't gay because they choose to be (Except the choice to accept the feelings and be open about them), they only choose how to act.
So my point is, if I don't like it, but still act friendly, fair and as accepting as I can, then I would expect that a gay person would understand and accept that I feel the way I do, and not attack me for it.

[ReiSilver]

wackyzacky1991 wrote...

how?

He/she is assuming that being homophobic is somehow equivalent to being homosexual. It's like saying being racist is equivalent to not being white.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry that I keep seeing people wanting a button they can push to erase character's sexuality completely.

Modifié par ReiSilver, 31 mars 2011 - 08:52 .

[Lee337]

ReiSilver wrote...

wackyzacky1991 wrote...

how?

He/she is assuming that being homophobic is somehow equivalent to being homosexual. It's like saying being racist is equivalent to not being white.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry that I keep seeing people wanting a button they can push to erase character's sexuality completely.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

One side wants homosexuals realtionships, usually the louder side, since any that admit they don't want it/like usually get blasted with insults etc. The other side don't want it.

Progress is being made in some parts of the world, not because more people think its right/natural/whatever, but that more people are being more accepting of it. Gays seem to be getting louder and more prejudiced towards those who don't like the idea.,as if their view is the correct one. There isn't a correct view, it is all opinions. Accepting each other is the way forward.

The button idea is a way of giving the gay community the content in the game that they desire while allowing those that don't want it in there to not be in there.
So if I have a button I use, how does it harm you any more than it harms me to know the content is still there in the game? And if you are trying to judge me for the way I feel, you are worse than me. I don't like it, I don't want to see it, but I do not intend to force my opinion on anyone or judge and persecute anyone for who they are.

[ReiSilver]

Lee337 wrote...

You screwed up the quotes there!
If a homophobe expresses his dislike of gays, and a gay expresses his dislike of homophobes there is no difference.
A gay attacks a homophobe, and homophobe attacks a gay, each insulting each other, acting hostile to one another, it both sides do the same things then they aren't any different.

I have gay friends, bi friends too, and so long as they do not make advances on me, I am O.K with them gay, it doesn't affect me, but I still get very very uncomfortable and quite edgy if advances are made. I get angry quite quickly if they don't back off first time, I wouldn't get angry if a women was persistant. I also feel a bit sick when seeing men kiss, and I don't like seeing them hold hands or hug either.
These things aren't something I can control, it's not a choice that I feel this way, what I can choose is how I act etc.
A gay person isn't gay because they choose to be (Except the choice to accept the feelings and be open about them), they only choose how to act.
So my point is, if I don't like it, but still act friendly, fair and as accepting as I can, then I would expect that a gay person would understand and accept that I feel the way I do, and not attack me for it.

All I'm going to say is maybe you should look up some GLTB/equality 101. You seem like you want to be a nice person but you just seem oblivious to how your demands to not have to know homosexuality exists is part of a large problem marginlised groups face.
What you're saying is these people espressing their affection around you makes you uncomfortable and you don't want to ever have to see it.
This essentially makes homosexual people invisble and it's something marginlised groups have had to fight for a long, long time.
You may not realise it, but being invisible sucks. It really, really sucks. It means you're not represented, you're never part of the audiance, you're never acccepted and you don't have the freedom to do what others can.
I'd advise you look up some sites on your own but I can provide a link to finally a feminism 101 blog and their post on Privilege. The post is on Male Privilege but I think reading that you should be able to see how that relates to straight privilege, class privilege etc.
Explaining this kind of thing, again and again and having to put up with people trying to marginlise you, even if they don't think they are doing so, is tiring and frustrating

Modifié par ReiSilver, 31 mars 2011 - 09:15 .

[Lee337]

I'm not marginlising you at all. In real life, or in a normal situation, not like here as we are discussing the matter, I would not ask a gay friend to hide, to act differently. If he was kissing a boyfriend, holding hands, hugging, I would not say anything. Nor do I think anyone should. I beleive everyone has the right to be who they are and not have to hide themselves because of other people prejudices.

If I hated fish, the smell, the taste, the sight, I would not eat fish. I'd avoid going fishing, I wouldn't go to the fish department in a supermarket.
But I sure as hell wouldn't insult, attack, tell people they are wrong, or try to force my opinion on anyone who did like fish. If I go to a resturant with a friend and my friend wants fish, he can have fish. Not likng fish is my problem. I don't expect him to have to go hide everytime he wants fish.
I wouldn't expect him to attack me for not liking fish.

Not wanting something is fine, as long as you don't force that view on others.

The switch off button idea, is actually there so you can be represented. So that what you want is available for you, so that you do have freedom. It simply means that those who don't want to see it don't have to, and remember this is a game, not real life. In real life, I wouldn't ask for the button.
The button therefore does not cut the freedom from your game, and anyone who pushes that button is not attacking you personally. If the button does not affect your game experiance, why take the option away for others?
I feel that if a gay person kicks off at someone making a choice to push the button, in the privacy of thier own home, isolated from everyone else, then that makes them no better than someone who wants the content not included at all, forcing you no have no gay options.

[ReiSilver]

Right. I typed all that out and you STILL don't get what's wrong with having an on/off button for homosexual romance.
Guess I should have known better.
Tiring and frustrating, like beating your head against a wall.
I'm out.

[Wittand25]

Lee337 wrote...
The switch off button idea, is actually there so you can be represented. So that what you want is available for you, so that you do have freedom. It simply means that those who don't want to see it don't have to, and remember this is a game, not real life. In real life, I wouldn't ask for the button.
The button therefore does not cut the freedom from your game, and anyone who pushes that button is not attacking you personally. If the button does not affect your game experiance, why take the option away for others?
I feel that if a gay person kicks off at someone making a choice to push the button, in the privacy of thier own home, isolated from everyone else, then that makes them no better than someone who wants the content not included at all, forcing you no have no gay options.

All romances already come with a switch off button, that can be used to turn it off/not even let it start in the game.I used it for Liara, Ashley, Miranda, Jack and Tali. Why should s/s romances be treated any differntly ?

And if there is s/s romance and such a button it would be discriminating and offensive, even more than totally leaving such romances out, unless there is also a button to stop Miranda or her succesor from pushing her behind in both the player´s and Shepard´s face at every opportunity.

[Lee337]

No, I get what your saying I just disagree. The button I suggested would be on by default, therefore the group that is affected, the ones that should feel less important etc is the ones who want to use it.

Just because I disagree does not mean I don't understand. I am suggesting a comprimise which is entirely unobtrusive to you.

[Lee337]

How is having a button, that the gay community doesn't use, whichs allows the person a choice, more offensive that having s/s content that I don't have to persue?

[Hattie]

Consider a botton that makes all black characters white.
Do you see why that might be offensive? I'm sure you do. It's the same thing with turning ss characters straight.

[Tarek]

DxWill10 wrote...

Not to fret, homophobes. Feel safe in the fact that, if this is implemented, no character is going to inflate your insecurity by hitting on you. I'm sure it will all be player initiated it. Homos make you feel insecure? Don't instigate a relationship. Problem solved.

well said 

[Wittand25]

Lee337 wrote...

How is having a button, that the gay community doesn't use, whichs allows the person a choice, more offensive that having s/s content that I don't have to persue?

Imagine:
You are allowed to use the same bus as everyone else.
But you have to by a special ticket and sit on a special seat, for no good reason other than others might feel pointlessly and without reason irritated if you are treated like everybody else.
Now tell me that you would not feel discrimated and offended by the bus company.

Disabeling s/s content in the options would only work if all romantic content could be turned off. Of course even then the ME community and developers would be the laughing stock of the internet, for beeing so imature and insecure to need such a toggle in the options when even games targeted at a much younger audience can do without.

[Lee337]

If there was a button to make all characters that are white into black, I wouldn't care less. No one would force me to push that button, and I wouldn't care who pushed it. Why should I?

The case here is the minority feeling offended because they are the minority.

Realistically, the chances of a gay/bi being in a ten man squad is very low. I don't care at all if there is just one. But if you want every single character bi, then that's unrealistic. Why should I cater to your needs and you find it offensive to cater to mine?