9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Tarek]

Hattie wrote...

Consider a botton that makes all black characters white.
Do you see why that might be offensive? I'm sure you do. It's the same thing with turning ss characters straight.

exactly,

its ok not to like fish, but you can't tell people to stop fishing, or to not sell them at the supermarket on the off chacne that u might see/smell them...etc

people being gay/bi is not something you have to like or dislike it something u have to respect and accept in life regardless of what you feel/think about it

its called respect and compromise, you can't ASK for an on/off gay key nor can you ask for a white/black/yellow/purple key.....

maybe I said it wrong you CAN ask BUT you should not becuase its not ethical

an example:

I don't believe in multiple Gods, BUT I don't ask Bioware to delete parts of Thane's dialog because it MIGHT come up, no I suck it up and accept that the world is more than what I think of it.

[Hattie]

Lee337 wrote...
If there was a button to make all characters that are white into black, I wouldn't care less. No one would force me to push that button, and I wouldn't care who pushed it. Why should I?

The case here is the minority feeling offended because they are the minority.

If you honestly see nothing wrong with having a botton which turns black characters white I would seriously suggest you go away and think about that for a bit. Unless you do that and realise your mistake, I have nothing more to say to you nor do I want anything more to do with you.

Modifié par Hattie, 31 mars 2011 - 10:07 .

[Lee337]

Wittand25 wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

How is having a button, that the gay community doesn't use, whichs allows the person a choice, more offensive that having s/s content that I don't have to persue?

Imagine:
You are allowed to use the same bus as everyone else.
But you have to by a special ticket and sit on a special seat, for no good reason other than others might feel pointlessly and without reason irritated if you are treated like everybody else.
Now tell me that you would not feel discrimated and offended by the bus company.

Disabeling s/s content in the options would only work if all romantic content could be turned off. Of course even then the ME community and developers would be the laughing stock of the internet, for beeing so imature and insecure to need such a toggle in the options when even games targeted at a much younger audience can do without.

The bus example doesn't fit is a public place. It is not the same as someone on their own. Someone playing in private would be like getting on a private bus. You could sit in the speacial seat, but you dont have to. The bus is all yours, and its empty.
It is a bad example. The people who would be buying the special ticket, sitting in the special seat are the ones pressing the button. But, if you read my posts properly, you'd realise the people pressing the button are 'homophobics' NOT the gays.  The idea is a block, a simple mechanism that removes the line of dialogue that initialises the s/s realtionship, so if I'm just trying to be nice, I don't accidently get them interested in me.

By DEFAULT , same sex realtionships would be ON.

[Lee337]

Hattie wrote...

Lee337 wrote...
If there was a button to make all characters that are white into black, I wouldn't care less. No one would force me to push that button, and I wouldn't care who pushed it. Why should I?

The case here is the minority feeling offended because they are the minority.

If you honestly see nothing wrong with having a botton which turns black characters white I would seriously suggest you go away and think about that for a bit. Unless you do that and realise your mistake, I have nothing more to say to you nor do I want anything more to do with you.

You are now saying that I am not allowed an opinion, at that yours is the only correct one and that it is fact.

[Tarek]

Lee337 wrote...

If there was a button to make all characters that are white into black, I wouldn't care less. No one would force me to push that button, and I wouldn't care who pushed it. Why should I?

The case here is the minority feeling offended because they are the minority.

Realistically, the chances of a gay/bi being in a ten man squad is very low. I don't care at all if there is just one. But if you want every single character bi, then that's unrealistic. Why should I cater to your needs and you find it offensive to cater to mine?

becuase we are not asking bioware to remove hetro LI

and chances of gay/bi people in the military is higher than u might think, 1 in 10 is actualy more than realistic, being gay or bi was actualy not that uncommon in the ancient world, some cultures even encourged it (sparta, greece...etc), its in recent times that people started to freak out about it.

[Lee337]

But do you find hetrosexual relationships offensive?

[Ziggy]

Lee337 wrote...

Hattie wrote...

Lee337 wrote...
If there was a button to make all characters that are white into black, I wouldn't care less. No one would force me to push that button, and I wouldn't care who pushed it. Why should I?

The case here is the minority feeling offended because they are the minority.

If you honestly see nothing wrong with having a botton which turns black characters white I would seriously suggest you go away and think about that for a bit. Unless you do that and realise your mistake, I have nothing more to say to you nor do I want anything more to do with you.

You are now saying that I am not allowed an opinion, at that yours is the only correct one and that it is fact

I think they're saying you are either racist or see nothing wrong with catering to racists and therefore don't want to talk to you any more.

[Lee337]

I'm not racist, and have no problems with race, even privately.
I said WHITE into BLACK. I wouldn't have a problem with it. If a black man decided he wanted all his team mates to be black, why is it my business? Why should I get involved? How would it affect me? It's not, I shouldn't, and it wouldn't.
If all races were being treated equally, why would they care about what another person does in private.

[Wittand25]

Lee337 wrote...
The bus example doesn't fit is a public place. It is not the same as someone on their own. Someone playing in private would be like getting on a private bus. You could sit in the speacial seat, but you dont have to. The bus is all yours, and its empty.
It is a bad example. The people who would be buying the special ticket, sitting in the special seat are the ones pressing the button. But, if you read my posts properly, you'd realise the people pressing the button are 'homophobics' NOT the gays.  The idea is a block, a simple mechanism that removes the line of dialogue that initialises the s/s realtionship, so if I'm just trying to be nice, I don't accidently get them interested in me.

By DEFAULT , same sex realtionships would be ON.

I picked  the bus because it fits quite well, look up american history.
And I understood what you wrote, but you do not seem to understand that the existance of the button is the offense and not wheter the button is set to on or off by default.

And as I have wrote before if that button comes I want one to spare me Miranda´s backside and Kelly´s flirting as well.

[Ziggy]

Lee337 wrote...
I'm not racist, and have no problems with race, even privately.
I said WHITE into BLACK. I wouldn't have a problem with it. If a black man decided he wanted all his team mates to be black, why is it my business? Why should I get involved? How would it affect me? It's not, I shouldn't, and it wouldn't.
If all races were being treated equally, why would they care about what another person does in private.

Catering to peoples racism (be it black or white or whatever) or sexism or homophobia or whatever else by having a botton to shuts off the 'offending' content CONDONES their bigotry - it says to the player "it's ok to not like blacks, or whites or homosexuals etc".

Modifié par Em23, 31 mars 2011 - 10:23 .

[ElitePinecone]

This 'button' issue has come up more than once in this thread and others like it (the same themes tend to come up cyclically in these sorts of threads, over the hundreds of pages...). My opposition to it in general hasn't changed much.

The problem I have with it, and one that I think others would share, is that it panders to a section of people that can't handle certain themes by blocking it out completely.

This isn't an option for other questionable themes in Bioware games - genocide, racial discrimination, xenophobia, prejudice, sexism, coarse language, violence, moral debauchery, religious themes, etc. In each of these cases, the player either deals with the issue at hand, or chooses to ignore it (for example, by not participating in genocide of the rachni). I can't see why one of these themes should be elevated to the level of being 'blockable' with a toggle or button simply because - with respect - some people find it uncomfortable.

There are other issues, also. Firstly, being able to 'block' same-sex content would go down like a lead balloon in the media and lobby groups, who (at times) may sometimes overreact to any gaming-related controversy. I'd wager that a well-crafted same-sex relationship or two (I haven't got up to them yet, but DA2's sound like a good example here) would not cause anywhere near the opprobrium as an attempt to filter the same sorts of content. The last thing Bioware needs is unnecessary public anger.

Secondly, an option in the game menu or start screen (Filter same-sex content? Y/N) would, I'd argue, promote the fact that same-sex romances existed to the extent that players who would otherwise never have known about the inclusion of s/s would be alerted.

One or two lines of 'romance initiation' sidequest dialogue in a 50-hour game is immeasurably less obvious than a glaring option on the home screen. If the point of the button is to conceal s/s romances, trumpeting that they exist on the menu screen is an odd choice, given the number of players who, I'd argue, would never find it anyway during the course of the game.

Your opinion is perfectly valid, and I agree that some tact is needed if s/s romances are going to be introduced - but with respect, I don't think a button or toggle is the best path to go down. It's arguably discriminatory, almost certainly liable to spark wider media interest and probably unnecessary if the dialogue is designed well.

[Lee337]

It IS ok not to like homosexuals etc. Its NOT ok to persecute them, insult them or anything else.

I don't beleive in god. I'd love to be able to, I hate the thought of dying and thats the end, but I don't. I was brought up in a school that had prayers and such, and my parents took to church for a longh while. But I don't believe. I cannot suddenly decide to believe. I could say I do, act like I do, but deep down I still wouldn't. It's not an active choice.
My feeling about homosexual acts are subconcious, I don't choose to not like it, I just don't
Why these feelings should offend people I don't know. I haven't insulted anyone or said that they are wrong to be gay or anything. People being gay does not offend me.

To me the homosexuality in games is better compared to violence in games. And you can tone down violence.

Do people feel uncomfortable around black people? If they do, it's proable that they were brought up with racism around them. If they act civil and polite despite those deep feelings, I think that it says much about them. They are not bad people to feel like that, the bad people are the ones who use those views on others.

[Lee337]

Elite, I also agree it isn't the best option. DA2 had a heart symbol next to the choice to show that it would initiate romance, and with the exception of Anders, it worked well. That is my favourite option, the downside being that the partner would never initate the romance like Liara did. If done well however it could be a very good option.

The button idea was simply to remove that line of dialogue so that you don't accidently make them think you are interested, and to allow the partner to start the fliritng.

[Tarek]

as I said before mate its not a question if I get offended by Hetro LI, frankly I don't care but I RESPECT it and I will accept it as part of life and diversity, in fact I find it beautiful.

the fact that people are still "offended" by gay/bi people is just amazing, its like if I go into a church and listen to mass I will get "offended" because my believes are different, well guess what I don't get offended by that, and i don't get offended by seeing gay/hetro people making out, nor if someone told me the universe is made from cheese ....

you know why because it all comes down to this:

do I accept others around me, do I respect them enough to love them for what they are!! do I see my world from within or from without!

and remember a wise man searches for wisdom, and only fools find it, keep ur mind open, and just keep thinking.

[Lee337]

Nyoka: Yes, it is. As long as it is done well. I just don't want every character I try to be friends with get the wrong idea. Anders got angry at me for turning him down... and I wasn't even nice to him! I just don't want that to happen.

[Lee337]

Tarek.
It's a fact of life that people often find different religious views offensive, many many wars have been started because of it.
I don't find gays offensive. It just makes me feel a little sick to see intamcy and advances towards me. The fact they are gay isn't a problem, if there is a gay crew mate in ME3, I am fine with it. If I could change the feelings, I would. It is not a choice.

[Lee337]

Nyoka wrote...

Lee337 wrote...
To me the homosexuality in games is better compared to violence in games.

Didn't see this line before. Well I guess it says it all.

In what way?

Some people find homosexual intimacy, kissing hugging etc makes them uneasy and sick.
Gore does the same thing, make people sick, uneasy, don't want to look.
I've never met anyone who has said that they like black people but to look at them makes them sick, or saying, my best friend is religious but everytime he prays it makes me physically sick. So I don't see it as a good comparision for the point I'm trying to make.

[Coach]

I'm usually more offended when an NPC *doesn't* hit on my Shepard. I am the savior of humanity, for crying out loud. The crew should be lining up for my affections... starting with Kaidan Alenko.

[Ziggy]

 

Lee337 wrote...Tarek.
It's a fact of life that people often find different religious views offensive, many many wars have been started because of it. 
I don't find gays offensive. It just makes me feel a little sick to see intamcy and advances towards me. The fact they are gay isn't a problem, if there is a gay crew mate in ME3, I am fine with it. If I could change the feelings, I would. It is not a choice.

Your first sentence is exactly why we need to promote acceptance and respect for other peoples freedom to live as they chose so long as they are not inhibiting the freedom of others.

That includes accepting other peoples sexual orientation regardless of how it makes you feel.

There are types of intimacy and advances that make me feel sick but, so long as I am free to turn them down, I'm not going to say those types of people shouldn't be allowed to flirt.

Modifié par Em23, 31 mars 2011 - 11:13 .

[Lee337]

Em, I agree entirely. If anyone is getting that I don't, then I'm sorry that I'm not being clear enough.

I'll go back to the OP:

#  6 Do you plan on turning everyone gay?
No, most of us would like the former bisexual squadmates to be reimplemented, this includes, Tali, Thane, Jack and Kaidan.  (someone correct me on that if I'm wrong)  We also wouldn't mind a BRAND NEW character.  Please share your thoughts in the poll or topic if you have any ideas for people.

----Ash was also bisexual. I don't want to see the old squadmates change. (Of course if only Shep can start any talk of s/s relation, and it obvious, it won't affect me and it won't bother me. Just because the option to say it is there, doesn't mean they will return the feelings.) A brand new character is fine by me.


# I'll be uncomfortable if even gay behavior is even hinted at.


This is why this topic is here.  We'd like to here from both sides of fence.  How would you like to compromise this?  Some of our ideas include:

    * Have you choose your crush on the import screen so if you choose no one as your crush then no one of the same sex will hit on you.

---Only really works for new players, picking a crush implies a certain person, not a gender. Not sure having to input your sexuality at the start is any better than the toggle button. If ME3 were to judge your sexuality on who you romanced, then maybe, but if you were bi, picked Ash and Miranda but wanted to romance Thane, it would stop you.

    * Colored font that warns you if you click it you're be stepping into a relationship dialogue.  We're not hoping for a Zevran type character we just want a normal character of the same sex who's open to the idea of a same-sex relationship.

Acceptable, like the heart symbol in DA2, so long as it is done right, unlike Anders.

    * Have it implemented by way of DLC so if you don't DLC then there's no way you even know Thane, Tali or whomever is open to same-sex relationships.

I have trouble beliving that this wouldn't be offensive but the button would be?

[Finis Valorum]

Coach Jon wrote...

I'm usually more offended when an NPC *doesn't* hit on my Shepard. I am the savior of humanity, for crying out loud. The crew should be lining up for my affections... starting with Kaidan Alenko.

That would be nice indeed.
There is of course an easy solution that's only slightly unfair to those of us who prefer m/m or f/f romances and that is to have them go the DLC route, for example they could have made a dlc for ME1 that would have added the MShep and Kaidan romance and where Kaidan depending on circumstances might have been the one to initiate it.
It would still be unfair in that we would have to pay more to get the romance options we want  on the other hand the people who are offended by the content could simply not buy that particular dlc and in their game they'd never have to know Kaidan can be gay. It is at least way better than a big fat toggle buttun with an exclamation mark befouling the main menu. Of course if they did decide to go the DLC romance route I think that in the interest of fairness the straight romances should be DLC too.
Aside from the pricing issues well done DLC romances would have several advantages, more resources could be poured in crafting the rest of the story and game world in the main game and having romances be totally optional this way (like Bioware always claims they are) could potentially satifsy the I want no romance at all crowd, the straight crowd and those of us, like me, who want to see well crafted m/m romances all at the same time.