9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Lee337]

Nyoka wrote...

So the part where you hit on others is already talked about. We agreed that lines should be clearer so we know what we're getting into.

Now, we should talk about others hitting on you. What's wrong with just turning them down? Look at this video with Liara. Shepard cilps her wings right there. Are you not able to do that before getting physically sick?

Look at this other one. Can't you just pick the "Unacceptable!" line if you don't like where you're getting into?

Liara is a girl...kind of... so, I wouldn't get sick anyway. i only feel mean for turning her down.
A man saying the same things would make me very uncomfortable. When Zevran did it, I tried being nice at the same time as saying no, but he didn't get the message. Anders went crazy at me. I'd rather that all gay relationships were Shep intialised. I realise this is unfair, but realistically, would a gay crew mate hit on his commanding officer?

[Ziggy]

Lee337 wrote...
Liara is a girl...kind of... so, I wouldn't get sick anyway. i only feel mean for turning her down.
A man saying the same things would make me very uncomfortable. When Zevran did it, I tried being nice at the same time as saying no, but he didn't get the message. Anders went crazy at me. I'd rather that all gay relationships were Shep intialised. I realise this is unfair, but realistically, would a gay crew mate hit on his commanding officer?

I experienced Zevran and Anders the same way you did except i'm a girl. The problem then is not the homosexual part, but the characters in question not being able to get the msg unless you're nasty to them.

Also I don't know why you would think homosexual people are less likely to flirt than heterosexual ones.

Modifié par Em23, 31 mars 2011 - 11:30 .

[Lee337]

In part. If it was just the one character who made the advances towards me, then I don't mind. The idea of turning more than that isn't appealing to me, it's unrealistic and would just feel wrong getting hit on by so many. If they include more than one, I don't want them to flirt unless I start it. I actually liked the fact that Samara turns you down, in that not all the girls try to romance you, and if you don't, they don't talk to you.

For your added question, because homosexuality is still a minority and people are often afraid to come out and be open with it, to do so in the Military would be harder. There are people who would be insulting, play harsh pranks, and just be plain nasty towards them. Coming out in an accepting community is fine, but it maybe harder in the military.

Modifié par Lee337, 31 mars 2011 - 11:42 .

[Ziggy]

Lee337 wrote...
In part. If it was just the one character who made the advances towards me, then I don't mind. The idea of turning more than that isn't appealing to me, it's unrealistic and would just feel wrong getting hit on by so many. If they include more than one, I don't want them to flirt unless I start it. I actually liked the fact that Samara turns you down, in that not all the girls try to romance you, and if you don't, they don't talk to you.

I agree completely with all that so long as we're talking generally about both heterosexual and homosexual relationships being treated equally.
The peoblem is, in my mind, the inability to turn someone down (ss or not) and still be friends.

Modifié par Em23, 31 mars 2011 - 11:42 .

[Lee337]

Yes, I'm talking about both types there. It wouldn't bother me if I had tried flirting with a crew mate and she told me she was strictly gay. I think that would add to her character.

[Ziggy]

Lee337 wrote...
For your added question, because homosexuality is still a minority and people are often afraid to come out and be open with it, to do so in the Military would be harder. There are people who would be insulting, play harsh pranks, and just be plain nasty towards them. Coming out in an accepting community is fine, but it maybe harder in the military.

That's the beauty of the scifi/fantasy setting - you can decide that in whatever year/world your game is set, homosexuality is no longer/not discriminated against 

[Lee337]

I know she is a women, but I can't think like a women. I did say that if it was a man saying it, then yes, that'd be awkward.

Zevran was very very.... well, just you tube Zevran Dragon Age.
Anders, yes, good idea, either bugged or poorly done.

I played as FemShep and did the Garrus relationship. I thought it was well done.

To kaidans quote, no, that's not the type of thing that makes me sick.

[Lee337]

Em23 wrote...

Lee337 wrote...
For your added question, because homosexuality is still a minority and people are often afraid to come out and be open with it, to do so in the Military would be harder. There are people who would be insulting, play harsh pranks, and just be plain nasty towards them. Coming out in an accepting community is fine, but it maybe harder in the military.

That's the beauty of the scifi/fantasy setting - you can decide that in whatever year/world your game is set, homosexuality is no longer/not discriminated against 

True enough. The atmosphere doesn't seem to be there though, out of the whole galaxy, only Liara and Kelly seem to have these views towards same sex, no men.

[ElitePinecone]

Lee337 wrote...
For your added question, because homosexuality is still a minority and people are often afraid to come out and be open with it, to do so in the Military would be harder. There are people who would be insulting, play harsh pranks, and just be plain nasty towards them. Coming out in an accepting community is fine, but it maybe harder in the military.

(Slightly off-topic, but never mind) This is 2185, and the Alliance military isn't analogous to *any* military on Earth. Whatever expectation you have of contemporary militaries, soldiers, norms, values, etc, won't hold up in a fictional futuristic universe. 

Consider, for example, that we know the Alliance has strict regulations about religious freedom. Women serve openly in the military as front-line soldiers, From the limited information we have (in the novels), gay and lesbian humans aren't seen pejoratively in any sense of the word - indeed, Karpyshyn seems to suggest that within humanity, differences of ethnicity, background, culture, gender and sexuality have ceased to matter. 

My point is that the writers have gone to great lengths to show a more tolerant, sensitive and accepting humanity of 180 years into the future (at least, accepting of human diversity - not so much aliens, in some cases). I can't see any form of prejudice existing in the military of the Alliance, given its apparent professionalism and changing human norms. 

[Lee337]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Lee337 wrote...
For your added question, because homosexuality is still a minority and people are often afraid to come out and be open with it, to do so in the Military would be harder. There are people who would be insulting, play harsh pranks, and just be plain nasty towards them. Coming out in an accepting community is fine, but it maybe harder in the military.

( From the limited information we have (in the novels), gay and lesbian humans aren't seen pejoratively in any sense of the word

I haven't read the novels ( I wan't to experiance ME through Shepard, making choices on what he's seen andnot what I've read in novels), but in game I've only seen lesbians, not gay.

[Ziggy]

Lee337 wrote...

Em23 wrote...

Lee337 wrote...
For your added question, because homosexuality is still a minority and people are often afraid to come out and be open with it, to do so in the Military would be harder. There are people who would be insulting, play harsh pranks, and just be plain nasty towards them. Coming out in an accepting community is fine, but it maybe harder in the military.

That's the beauty of the scifi/fantasy setting - you can decide that in whatever year/world your game is set, homosexuality is no longer/not discriminated against 

True enough. The atmosphere doesn't seem to be there though, out of the whole galaxy, only Liara and Kelly seem to have these views towards same sex, no men.

No, they are the only ones who are into homosexual relationships. No one in the games displays discriminatory behaviour towards them.

[Ziggy]

Lee337 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Lee337 wrote...
For your added question, because homosexuality is still a minority and people are often afraid to come out and be open with it, to do so in the Military would be harder. There are people who would be insulting, play harsh pranks, and just be plain nasty towards them. Coming out in an accepting community is fine, but it maybe harder in the military.

( From the limited information we have (in the novels), gay and lesbian humans aren't seen pejoratively in any sense of the word

I haven't read the novels ( I wan't to experiance ME through Shepard, making choices on what he's seen andnot what I've read in novels), but in game I've only seen lesbians, not gay.

That is partly why this thread is here - to draw attention to this discrepency and allow ss romance for male shep too.

[Lee337]

Nyoka wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

I know she is a women, but I can't think like a women. I did say that if it was a man saying it, then yes, that'd be awkward.

Zevran was very very.... well, just you tube Zevran Dragon Age.
Anders, yes, good idea, either bugged or poorly done.

I played as FemShep and did the Garrus relationship. I thought it was well done.

To kaidans quote, no, that's not the type of thing that makes me sick.

Alright, so there you go: Liara in those videos and Kaidan's quote, two glimpses of teh gay that doesn't make you sick! Isn't that great? Doesn't that give you hope that this kind of relationship can be implemented right this time, unlike whatever they did in that other game I haven't played?

Right from the start, I have said that if implented right, then it's fine. I don't have any problems with the content being there as long as I'm not forced to turn down every man.
DA2 had most characters bi. When talking a heart indicated that the dialouge choice would start a relationship path. Before that choice, the character would be purely a friend.
Problem was that the nice way was always the realtionship starter, even if the conversation wasn't about realtionships, while the other paths were alightly negative. If I could bear to play it again I'd find an example.
Anders, despite me not liking him and strying to get him to leave, still hit on me and upon turning him down he went crazy.
So DA2, on the right track but not quite there yet.

[Ziggy]

Lee337 wrote...
Right from the start, I have said that if implented right, then it's fine. I don't have any problems with the content being there as long as I'm not forced to turn down every man.
DA2 had most characters bi. When talking a heart indicated that the dialouge choice would start a relationship path. Before that choice, the character would be purely a friend.
Problem was that the nice way was always the realtionship starter, even if the conversation wasn't about realtionships, while the other paths were alightly negative. If I could bear to play it again I'd find an example.
Anders, despite me not liking him and strying to get him to leave, still hit on me and upon turning him down he went crazy.
So DA2, on the right track but not quite there yet.

The characters react the same if you're female - which I agree isn't well done.
Do you agree then that this is a problem with romance implementation in general, not specifically homosexual ones?

Modifié par Em23, 31 mars 2011 - 12:17 .

[Lee337]

Yeah, I agree with that. The homosexual problem I have is more of a symptom, not a cause. If the romances were done well in DA2, I would not have experianced any problems.

[Ziggy]

Lee337 wrote...
Yeah, I agree with that. The homosexual problem I have is more of a symptom, not a cause. If the romances were done well in DA2, I would not have experianced any problems.

I'll settle for that 
Bedtime now - good night!

[android654]

Of all the things to get upset over, you'd think sex would be nowhere near that list. If it makes you feel better, I doubt Garrus would have the right pieces to hold Shepard by the waist and uh... hit the relay. He's a bird-man after all, which makes me more curious as to how the whole process works.

I'll be honest, all of bickering over two guys cuddling, just makes me curious as to the anatomy of it all. How do all creatures in space have the right equipment for every other species? I think The Reapers love voyeurism, and decided to organize a galactic peep show, so they engineered us that way.

[KAGEHOSHI-]

I am in full support of same sex relationship options for ME3. It would be pretty odd if it doesn't happen in ME3 since they did it for DA2.

[Finis Valorum]

KAGEHOSHI- wrote...
 It would be pretty odd if it doesn't happen in ME3 since they did it for DA2.

Different def teams, Gaider isn't the lead writer for Mass Effect for one.
Besides you know that one of the few predefined things about our
Shepard in the Mass Effect franchise is the fact that MShep cannot
actively be gay or even identify as gay in these games.
I think
that if we're going to get anything at all for MShep in ME3 it's going to be a
fling with Kelly's, chubby and unattractive, male replacement (only
available if you didn't rescue the original crew of course, so you've
basically got to be a ****** to gay in ME3 if its even going to be
possible at all).

[Tarek]

KAGEHOSHI- wrote...

I am in full support of same sex relationship options for ME3. It would be pretty odd if it doesn't happen in ME3 since they did it for DA2.

indeed

(well we can hope)

[catabuca]

Coach Jon wrote...

I'm usually more offended when an NPC *doesn't* hit on my Shepard. I am the savior of humanity, for crying out loud. The crew should be lining up for my affections... starting with Kaidan Alenko.

I'm John Shepard, and this is my favourite post on the internet.



But seriously, some great discussion going on in this thread recently. Of course, it's always good to hear from all sides of the debate, as long as we all remain courteous.

I may reply further when I get to the end of the thread. It'd moved quickly since I was last here!

[catabuca]

I had a feeling the release of DA2 would reinvigorate this thread, and I'm glad it has. We stagnated for a while back there, mostly due to a sense of utter deflation in the face of the rather unfortunate comments by a choice few at the top of the ME/BW chain of command. The release of DA2 has, at least, put a little spark of hope back into some people's minds, and reminded them not everyone at BW is an unthinking ****. (sorry, can't help but vent)

I started a discussion thread in the Fight for the Love group (link in my sig to all those who aren't members) asking what the impact might be on ME3 or future ME games from DA2's gender-unrestricted romances. There have been some interesting replies, but it would be good to have the discussion here as well.

Clearly, some people aren't that happy by the way Anders initiates that one conversation with Hawke (although, it should be noted there are no femHawke players complaining about it, only manHawke players, so I wonder if it is less a design problem and more a subconcious, or sometimes very conscious, comment on Anders' sexuality after all -- not from everyone of course, I wouldn't generalise, but still). Perhaps they should have left a 'neutral' option in that particular dialogue choice for Hawke (although, in all seriousness, the 'It's unexpected' heart icon line can be viewed as relatively neutral and DOES NOT lead to the initiation of a romance - I picked that option my last game and did not romance Anders). Also, you only get the two hearts one broken heart selection if you have picked diplomatic or 'good' choices leading up to that. My current sarcastic Hawke, who does want to romance Anders, got a completely neutral non-heart icon choice in that dialogue.

That being said, of course it's clear the heart system in general works incredibly well in DA2. I'm the first to admit that when we floated the idea of coloured text for romances in ME I didn't like the idea, but I have been won round by the way DA2 has implemented it. The icon system in general, for assessing intent, I think would be a preferred method to the way ME handles it for all dialogue anyway.

I'm against a button or toggle for the same reasons Elite so eloquently outlined earlier.

I'm also against the idea of 'gay dlc'. While it might be a quick and easy way to introduce that content into ME1&2, for any future games if there is going to be any s/s content it should be implemented in the game alongside the o/s content. Otherwise the message is that it is unequal. That would be bad. Very bad.

While making all LIs romanceable by either gender Hawke in DA2 was just amazing, it's something I believe only the DA franchise could have attempted, due to it's inclusion of 2 options in DAO already. ME isn't ready for that yet (although I would love it to be so). I'd rather ME try to walk before it can run. Just the inclusion of one or two s/s LIs per gender would be just the thing to show BW is still the great inclusive developer most of us love them for. There has been so much ill-feeling toward the powers that be behind the ME franchise, that, for me at least, that will always and forever be tainted while this attitude continues. I love the DA team with all my heart, but the word BioWare doesn't inspire the same love because of ME.

And actually, this isn't just because there are no s/s (or m/m) options in ME, but because 1) femShep can identify as gay and have a relationship appropriate to that orientation, while manShep cannot -- a blatant and offensive double standard; 2) the way the Asari have been hand-waved away as not female, even though to a femShep, and to any player of the game, they look female and a femShep/Liara relationship is clearly a lesbian one; 3) the offensive and ill-thought out comments by 2 particular members of the ME/BW team with regard to why Shepard 'can't be gay'.

If points 1, 2 and 3 didn't exist, I may not be quite so angry and hurt at the absence of s/s romance as I am. It's the ridiculous ****storm that came afterwards that's the problem. Oh, and the small matter of that content being scripted, acted and to some extent animated for Kaidan/Ashley in ME1 but cut for reasons unknown.

I've rambled for far too long on this post now. I pass the baton back to Elite, who is always far more eloquent than I.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Interesting.....