9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Clonedzero]

im all for it gay/bi romances in ME3. i just think they shouldnt make any established characters suddenly bi in ME3.

like if kaidan was suddenly gay, that'd be really weird, same with any of the other characters. a new gay/bi squadmate would be cool though. it'd just feel really forced and awkward if they suddenly became bi.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Clonedzero wrote...

im all for it gay/bi romances in ME3. i just think they shouldnt make any established characters suddenly bi in ME3.

like if kaidan was suddenly gay, that'd be really weird, same with any of the other characters. a new gay/bi squadmate would be cool though. it'd just feel really forced and awkward if they suddenly became bi.

That's my argument as well.

[Nodscouter]

Same.

[android654]

That's just it. depending on how you play, there was no romantic entanglement with kaidan, or you ignored him altogether. Or he was involved with a female commander, but how does that negate his interest in men as well? Same for Ashley, Jacob, Miranda and most characters.

[Pwener2313]

This again.......

[Nodscouter]

Yes. This again.

android654 wrote...

That's just it. depending on how you play, there was no romantic entanglement with kaidan, or you ignored him altogether. Or he was involved with a female commander, but how does that negate his interest in men as well? Same for Ashley, Jacob, Miranda and most characters.

I'm pretty sure they would've mentioned it. I mean, they don't know if the Commander is straight or not. It wouldn't make sense if they out of nothing started showing interest in him/her.

Modifié par Nodscouter, 31 mars 2011 - 08:02 .

[cedgedc]

Right off I will confess I didn't read all 200 pages of this thread. I just wanted to add that as a straight male gamer, I found the OP to be very mature, and fair in the arguement.

I absolutely support this. The romantic subplot in these types of games adds such a depth to the development of your character, and to the game's unique affect on the player experiencing the story.

Imagining the situation being flipped, such that there were few, if ever any options for a straight romantic relationship in a game- Well it is discouraging and a bit heartwrenching to say the least.

With that said, I hold every faith in Bioware. I don't expect a DLC for ME2 necessarily, but having seen the stance they took with DA2, which was admireably bold for a video game developer (those of you who read the infamous letter to the 'straight male gamer' know what I mean) I have nothing but the highest confidence that Bioware will continue to be true to the gay community, with the final chapter of the trilogy.

As for the practical solutions to this. My problem with DA2 was.. Well I -am- straight. I have no problem with gay options as i made clear.. but a lot of times it felt very easy to just sortof .. 'accidentally go gay' lol.

Aaall I wanted was to gain the ability benefits of friendship with some of my group members, and some of them are just like.. shall we say, over eager to get into my pants? It almost feels like Anders is saying 'Hey.. If you want that nifty 'Friendly' buff from me, you're gonna hafta take off your clothes.

So while I think DA2 was a wonderful step in the right direction on a social level and an equality level.. Maybe they can make it more practical for someone who wants to be great friends with members of their squad.. just friends with only passive buff- benefits

The colored font is a good idea.. but maybe have green font for building 'friendship' and purple, pink, whatever heartsy color, for building 'Romance'.

I think everyone, straight or gay, wants to feel comfortable amongst their friends without feeling like.. hey this person thinks that my being nice is going to lead to sex.

Again I appologize if my post contained some redundancies. I'm certain that it did.

[Lee337]

I agree it would be wierd to change character. If it was just Kaidan, why not just make a new character gay, if it's about more than one character...well, how many are really going to be secretly harboring gay feelings towards Shep?

Kaidan: Shep, I'm gay.
Thane: Hey! Me too!
Jacob: Well I wasn't going to say anything, but I am as well.
Zaheed: Well as long as were getting things out in the open...

[Nodscouter]

I honestly never felt like anyone was overeager to get into my pants during any of my 2 playthroughs. Maybe it's just because I went pretty quickly for the flirting.
Edit: Gay Zaeed for ME3!

Modifié par Nodscouter, 31 mars 2011 - 08:15 .

[catabuca]

The thing about Anders: you do not have to romance him in order to get maximum friendship with him. I took a couple of rivalry hits with him in my last game but still had him at max friendship by the end of act 1. Anders is incredibly easy to get to max friendship. Some who like to rival him might say it's actually too easy to get to max friendship with him, in fact.

So a +15 rivalry hit right at the beginning of the game makes not the slightest bit of difference over whether you'll get his passive friendship buff later on or not. That there be silly talk.

The other point here is that even if you do pick one of the heart options in that particular conversation, it does not lead to romance unless you continue to pick heart options in future conversations. I said on the last page, I picked the 'It's unexpected' heart with him in my last game, and I did not romance him, I romanced Fenris instead. In every subsequent conversations I only picked 'good' or 'nice' options with him, and he didn't make one, single, solitary move on Hawke. Not one.

I can fully appreciate the argument that it seemed slightly strange to have a conversation where there were only 2 heart options and 1 broken heart option, especially when that broken heart led to Anders being upset (which, personally, I think is perfectly in keeping with Anders' personality, but still). However, that argument seems to be being used as a jumping-off point to proclaim the game makes you go gay (and other, slightly watered-down versions of that argument) when it does no such thing. With that logic I might say that playing femHawke through that conversation with those dialogue options means the game forces me to play a straight femHawke, but of course, it doesn't.

It is one thing to find the apparent lack of a 'neutral' choice in that conversation, for mHawke AND fHawke, a little odd, but it is quite another to then use that to claim the game makes you go gay, or even encourages you to do so.

[Siansonea]

Lee337 wrote...

I agree it would be wierd to change character. If it was just Kaidan, why not just make a new character gay, if it's about more than one character...well, how many are really going to be secretly harboring gay feelings towards Shep?

Kaidan: Shep, I'm gay.
Thane: Hey! Me too!
Jacob: Well I wasn't going to say anything, but I am as well.
Zaheed: Well as long as were getting things out in the open...

"I'm Spartacus!" "I'm Spartacus!" "No I'm Spartacus!"

Are we still on the old don't-change-existing-characters-to-be-"gay" schtick? Didn't we settle that 500 or so pages back?

In other news: Scientists have discovered that bisexual and gay are two different words with two different meanings. Film at eleven.

Flippant hyperbole is a sword that cuts both ways.

[catabuca]

Don't make me get David Gaider's comment about 'just because someone doesn't say they like men in one game doesn't mean they don't actually, in fact, like men' out again, y'all.

I have it bookmarked for just such an occasion as this, but it's tiresome to keep reposting the same stuff.

Bisexual = attracted to members of the same and opposite sex, not necessarily in the same bed at the same time, and, what is more, not necessarily with a 50/50 split of preference.

[Finis Valorum]

catabuca wrote...



I'm also against the idea of 'gay dlc'. While it might be a quick and easy way to introduce that content into ME1&2, for any future games if there is going to be any s/s content it should be implemented in the game alongside the o/s content. Otherwise the message is that it is unequal. That would be bad. Very bad.

While making all LIs romanceable by either gender Hawke in DA2 was just amazing, it's something I believe only the DA franchise could have attempted,

And actually, this isn't just because there are no s/s (or m/m) options in ME, but because 1) femShep can identify as gay and have a relationship appropriate to that orientation, while manShep cannot -- a blatant and offensive double standard; 2) the way the Asari have been hand-waved away as not female, even though to a femShep, and to any player of the game, they look female and a femShep/Liara relationship is clearly a lesbian one; 3) the offensive and ill-thought out comments by 2 particular members of the ME/BW team with regard to why Shepard 'can't be gay'.

In all fairness they could decide to make all romance DLC content, not just the s/s ones. Having no explicit romance content in a well written base game is, I think, defensible from a design standpoint, unless the premise of the game is to be an RPG dating simulator or, of course, a story where (romantic)love is the protagonists primary motivation.
I do agree that in a game such as ME that already includes both straight and lesbian romances leaving out the option to have a gay relationship is a very dubious design decision at best.
Of course if they do finally decide to add in gay content for the last installment I still predict It'll only be Kelly's chubby male replacement, who is of course only available in the first place if you didn't bother to save the original Kelly. That way those who want to experience the gay content get punished for acheiving the perfect paragon ending.

[cedgedc]

catabuca wrote...

I can fully appreciate the argument that it seemed slightly strange to have a conversation where there were only 2 heart options and 1 broken heart option, especially when that broken heart led to Anders being upset (which, personally, I think is perfectly in keeping with Anders' personality, but still). However, that argument seems to be being used as a jumping-off point to proclaim the game makes you go gay (and other, slightly watered-down versions of that argument) when it does no such thing. With that logic I might say that playing femHawke through that conversation with those dialogue options means the game forces me to play a straight femHawke, but of course, it doesn't.

It is one thing to find the apparent lack of a 'neutral' choice in that conversation, for mHawke AND fHawke, a little odd, but it is quite another to then use that to claim the game makes you go gay, or even encourages you to do so.

I don't think the game 'makes you go gay' per say, and the issue I aluded to in my first post was indeed the one you're refering too, where I had only two hearts and one </3  as my choices. A nice neutral 'welcome to the friendzone' option would have been nice.

I'm not saying this as someone who was terribly offended by this. I was actually more concerned that it would lead to conflicts with the romantic relationships I -was- trying to pursue.

I'm mostly trying to speak from the perspective of people who may be more sensitive to this sortof thing, or perhaps people who don't have as strong an understanding of the relationship system in the game as you seem to.

I played through the game without really finding myself in excess of friendship bonuses from Anders. I found that both as fHawke and mHawke, the relationship got flirty with him very quickly, and I was short on 'just friends' dialogue options.

[mesmerizedish]

catabuca wrote...

Bisexual = attracted to members of the same and opposite sex, not necessarily in the same bed at the same time, and, what is more, not necessarily with a 50/50 split of preference.

Let's be real, though. Wouldn't that be more fun?

[Finis Valorum]

Anders infects every romance thread these days it seems, yes that particular branch of responses in that conversation was probably an unfortunate design decision. Didn't David Gaider already say he would have made Anders less forceful if he had to write something like that again?

[catabuca]

cedgedc wrote...

I don't think the game 'makes you go gay' per say, and the issue I aluded to in my first post was indeed the one you're refering too, where I had only two hearts and one </3  as my choices. A nice neutral 'welcome to the friendzone' option would have been nice.

I'm not saying this as someone who was terribly offended by this. I was actually more concerned that it would lead to conflicts with the romantic relationships I -was- trying to pursue.

I'm mostly trying to speak from the perspective of people who may be more sensitive to this sortof thing, or perhaps people who don't have as strong an understanding of the relationship system in the game as you seem to.

I played through the game without really finding myself in excess of friendship bonuses from Anders. I found that both as fHawke and mHawke, the relationship got flirty with him very quickly, and I was short on 'just friends' dialogue options.

Now that is something I will certainly happily concede to: I know a lot about how the game works, and I recognise that others might not. That is fair enough. Of course, on the other hand, I'm a firm believer of saving before every conversation in case I screw up -- save early, save often -- so I am no stranger to reloading conversations that didn't go as I expected. Perhaps I expect others to do the same ... which isn't very fair of me.

As I said, I see no problem with discussing a gameplay element, like the lack of a neutral choice*, as long as it is applied equally for male and female Hawkes (which it doesn't seem to be), and as long as it's not used as a jumping off point to use as 'proof' the game is pushing homosexual content on people. You've explained you're not doing that, and I accept that. There are a lot of others who are though, and I think because of that any discussion of this particular conversation/dialogue needs to be handled with more care since the issues get conflated.

*there is a neutral choice if you have been sarcastic or angry in your dialogue with Anders up to that point, you only get 2 and 1 </3 if you have been consistently nice to him -- he evidently reads that as you being a really swell guy or gal and wants to see if you might be interested in him, fair enough I say. Secondly, the 'it's unexpected' could be interpreted as 'neutral' as well, since my last Hawke, who romanced Fen, used it as a way of saying 'gee, I'm flattered you like me, feel free to say nice things to me, I'm vain lol', but made no advances on Anders from that point, and Anders made none towards him.

[catabuca]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Bisexual = attracted to members of the same and opposite sex, not necessarily in the same bed at the same time, and, what is more, not necessarily with a 50/50 split of preference.

Let's be real, though. Wouldn't that be more fun?

Yes, yes it would,

I'll be in my bunk ...

[cedgedc]

To be clear, and to reiterate. What I said was that I found the steps Bioware took toward accommodating fans of any persuasion, very respectable, and a great social step forward.

I think that certain improvements could be made to keep dialog options a bit more clear and a little less a test of the confidence you have with your sexuality/ feel like you're being given ultimatums by your group mates (whether you're gay, straight, or uninterested altogether)- 'Love me or I'm leaving and you won't get any of my awesome spells and buffs!'

[catabuca]

Finis Valorum wrote...

Anders infects every romance thread these days it seems, yes that particular branch of responses in that conversation was probably an unfortunate design decision. Didn't David Gaider already say he would have made Anders less forceful if he had to write something like that again?

Yes, he said that perhaps if he was writing that dialogue again he might not have had Anders be the one to initiate the romance. At the time he thought it was more realistic that there would be some LIs who initiate, while Hawke initiates others, and I completely agree. I feel that had it been Isabela initiating something with Hawke this wouldn't be the issue it is. Oh wait ... Isabela *does* throw herself at Hawke in her recruitment mission ... and yet the silence, it is deafening.

The prevalence of complaints about Anders (for manHawke players only, femHawke players don't seem to care), and the lack of complaints about Isabela, seem to indicate that it isn't simply a gameplay mechanic that many (not all, perhaps) people are upset about, but the presence of a male LI who has the audacity to mention he likes a male Hawke.

[cedgedc]

catabuca wrote...

Now that is something I will certainly happily concede to: I know a lot about how the game works, and I recognise that others might not. That is fair enough. Of course, on the other hand, I'm a firm believer of saving before every conversation in case I screw up -- save early, save often -- so I am no stranger to reloading conversations that didn't go as I expected. Perhaps I expect others to do the same ... which isn't very fair of me.

As I said, I see no problem with discussing a gameplay element, like the lack of a neutral choice*, as long as it is applied equally for male and female Hawkes (which it doesn't seem to be), and as long as it's not used as a jumping off point to use as 'proof' the game is pushing homosexual content on people. You've explained you're not doing that, and I accept that. There are a lot of others who are though, and I think because of that any discussion of this particular conversation/dialogue needs to be handled with more care since the issues get conflated.

*there is a neutral choice if you have been sarcastic or angry in your dialogue with Anders up to that point, you only get 2 and 1 </3 if you have been consistently nice to him -- he evidently reads that as you being a really swell guy or gal and wants to see if you might be interested in him, fair enough I say. Secondly, the 'it's unexpected' could be interpreted as 'neutral' as well, since my last Hawke, who romanced Fen, used it as a way of saying 'gee, I'm flattered you like me, feel free to say nice things to me, I'm vain lol', but made no advances on Anders from that point, and Anders made none towards him.

*High fives!* I think we're quite on the same page on this issue. Though I quite appreciate that you may be dealing with the stress of having been involved with this thread for a few hundred more pages than I have! hehe

I agree. People shouldn't assume that a few dialogue options suggest that Bioware is undertaking a plot to turn the world's gamers gay. I think that whenever a company, person, agent of any kind takes the first step, it is always controvercial, and some will accept that change with greater ease than others.

[catabuca]

cedgedc wrote...

To be clear, and to reiterate. What I said was that I found the steps Bioware took toward accommodating fans of any persuasion, very respectable, and a great social step forward.

I think that certain improvements could be made to keep dialog options a bit more clear and a little less a test of the confidence you have with your sexuality/ feel like you're being given ultimatums by your group mates (whether you're gay, straight, or uninterested altogether)- 'Love me or I'm leaving and you won't get any of my awesome spells and buffs!'

I completely appreciate what you're saying. The clearer BW can make these kinds of romantic dialogues, across the board, the better. The introduction of the icon system was a huge step forward imo, and one I hope ME adopts too. 

One thing I can't help but comment on though -- you can still very easily get Anders' friendship buffs (fnar) even when you get that 15 rivalry hit at the beginning, and in fact you will likely get it before you reach the end of act 1. You do not have to romance ANY of the characters, straight or gay, in order to get them to either maximum friendship or maximum rivalry. I didn't see that conversation with Anders as any kind of ultimatum, and it was in keeping with his needy, sensitive character to react like that (in my opinion, of course).

Just like juggling a party with him, Fenris and Merrill is a challenge if you want to get them all to max friendship, dealing with the ups and downs of companion dialogue (platonic or romantic) is one of the more interesting things I like about this game. Sometimes my actions and words are going to have a negative effect. I remember having a conversation with Aveline and screaming at the tv "how the hell did I get rivalry points for *that*??" I merely shrugged it off, figuring I'd be able to make them up again later, and indeed I did. This is the exact same thing, only because it's linked to Anders' sexuality it's being reviewed in a far more negative light. Again, I'm not suggesting you are doing that, only that some people do, and it's why we should be careful before conflating these two issues, because they are being erroneously linked.

Now I have to go sing songs from Singin' in the Rain. I have to every time I read, say or type the word erroneous.

(extra points to those who get that)

[cedgedc]

catabuca wrote...

Yes, he said that perhaps if he was writing that dialogue again he might not have had Anders be the one to initiate the romance. At the time he thought it was more realistic that there would be some LIs who initiate, while Hawke initiates others, and I completely agree. I feel that had it been Isabela initiating something with Hawke this wouldn't be the issue it is. Oh wait ... Isabela *does* throw herself at Hawke in her recruitment mission ... and yet the silence, it is deafening.

Heh, well let's face it.. Gamers are predominantly male. I don't have any kind of statistics on x out of 10 men will turn out to be gay, but I think until presently the gay community hasn't really -expected- any kind of romance options from the games they play, so anything like Isabella hitting on you would have fallen under the status quo for how these things tend to work out in games for many people. I'm not saying this is acceptible this day in age, but it's sortof the 'sad but true' scenario. Needless to say, the number of people who would complain about this is going to be considerably less, simply according to the target audience.

On a side note, speaking as someone who is not at all uncomfortable pointing out men I find attractive.. (Fenris being my choice in this particular game with the exception of perhaps mHawke) Isabella way out of Anders' league! Gay or straight, who wouldn't be a little flattered by that pass?? but maybe that's just personal preference speaking hehe.

Also I think Isabella makes advances at just about everyone in my group, with varrying degrees of jest perhaps.

[cedgedc]

It's true though that the sexual advances of anders seem to be regarded as criminal where Isabella's are not.

That said, I got to high levels of friendship with Zevran in DA:O and had him present me with romantic options and didn't at all feel any  of the 'this is a little weird' reaction that I had to anders. It was more like.. Oh neat, he's gay. Flattered but, no thanks!

[Finis Valorum]

catabuca wrote...

The prevalence of complaints about Anders (for manHawke players only, femHawke players don't seem to care), and the lack of complaints about Isabela, seem to indicate that it isn't simply a gameplay mechanic that many (not all, perhaps) people are upset about, but the presence of a male LI who has the audacity to mention he likes a male Hawke.

I personally don't mind having people, including Anders, hitting on my cute MaleHawke, sadly however the prevailing sentiment among young males who play videogames is that lesbian sex is smokin hot, while having m/m relationships even mentioned, much less explicitely depicted, is a direct threat to their masculinity that could potentially awaken forbidden desires that would make their heads explode or something like that.
Personally I would very much prefer it if Kaidan would flirt with MaleShep in ME3 without being prompted first, sadly that's not ever going to be.