9243 réponses à ce sujet

[elearon1]

I'd point out though that Kelly is really just an extra and as such doesn't invoke the same emotional connections one has with the actual crew. Basically the point of Kelly is to allow people to romance someone if they don't want to cheat on their significant other from the first game - which is grand and all, but it is hardly the same as having a fully realized character as a LI.



>>Im sorry . i just dont really understand the point of this group..<<



And if all the love interests were homosexual would you just go make yourself a gay character to romance them or would you prefer a heterosexual relationship option? Most people are going to want something specifically for them, without being forced to ignore who they are or two their Shepard is order to play the game. As I have said before, MY Shep is a proud, roguish, take no crap soldier and a lesbian - I could make a male Shep to experience the romance with Tali, but that wouldn't be MY Shep, the game wouldn't be MY Shep's story then; which is what Bioware advertises.

[Siansonea]

What I don't get is why people come in and say "I don't get it".

Really? You really don't understand why some people would want character options that might more closely parallel their own experiences? Or that people might want to play something other than a cardboard cutout version of themselves? You REALLY don't understand that. Sigh.

This shows a lack of any sort of ability to put oneself in another person's shoes. That ability is called empathy. If you don't have it, go out and get it.

Of course, I'm sure the majority of these people are 13-year-old boys who are freaked out by Gay Homosexuals OMG! Hopefully time and better video games will teach them to Live And Let Live.

More Options Are Always Better. More Options Takes Nothing Away From Your Game.

[Crazed-ex-jedi]

Female Shep only like JE

[zvbxrpl]

Crazed-ex-jedi wrote...

Female Shep only like JE

Uh, you do know that your male PC can romance Sky if you've turned down the two female LIs in Jade Empire, right?

[MaxQuartiroli]

zvbxrpl wrote...

Crazed-ex-jedi wrote...

Female Shep only like JE

Uh, you do know that your male PC can romance Sky if you've turned down the two female LIs in Jade Empire, right?

And that the screen of your PC will fade to black right before you kiss him ?

[irvm89]

Modifié par irvm89, 14 juillet 2010 - 11:10 .

[zvbxrpl]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

zvbxrpl wrote...

Crazed-ex-jedi wrote...

Female Shep only like JE

Uh, you do know that your male PC can romance Sky if you've turned down the two female LIs in Jade Empire, right?

And that the screen of your PC will fade to black right before you kiss him ?

Well, in a perfect world that would be be because BioWare hadn't done this before and wasn't sure how it would be recieved.  Frankly, it's kind of wimpy, but still better than what we get in the Mass Effect franchise. Mass Effect should have progressed, and instead it went backwards.  Which is really not OK.

[Syledir]

Wittand25 wrote...

Syledir wrote...
Now people ask for romanceable NPCs for the same sex. Not because of realism, but because it's a game everyone should be able to pursue a romance with a NPC. It was possible in Dragon Age and Jade Empire after all. But now people have to decide which NPC should be available for same sex relationships. The best solution would be one heterosexuall, one bisexuall and one homosexuall love interest for both femshep and maleshep. But I agree with zvbxrpl here. Let's say Tali would be the homosexuall NPC, I don't want to be caught in the ****storm all the kiddies would unleash on us. The next best solution would be to make every NPC romanceable for either femshep or maleshep. That way noone could complain about unfair untreatment or why it had to be his/her favourite NPC that wasn't romanceable. Now people start to ask for more realism?

So you can't demand realism on one hand and disregard it on the other.

A really homosexual fully developed LI would be total new ground for Bioware because either LI open for the same sex were either bisexual or not fully developed as LI.I can understand that because such an LI would be impractical for the sole reason of resources because with the little extra work of making them bisexual you expand the target audience significally. The same is not true for a straight character. Turning a straight character bisexual increases the intrest in that LI only by a small amount and is hardly worth using extra resources for.  With the added fact that the number of LIs is a dimishing return, meaning that two possible LIs (for the same PC) is a lot better than one but five options is hardly better than four, having most of the LI straight with some bisexuals for those wanting to play a homosexual main character is the most prudent thing to do.

And we are talking about a computer RPG with aliens and faster than light travel here, I dont think argumenting with realism is even an option.

Boombox wrote...
I agree with pretty much everything you said except this bit.. Characters still need to have their personality and not everyone in the world is bi or attracted to the same sex. I think it'll be completely UNREALISTIC and quite silly to make everyone an option..
ElitePinecon wrote...
You make a very good point - the problem being that at the moment there are no alternatives for s/s romances. Of course it would be UNREALISTIC to open up all squadmates to romance, same-sex or otherwise.

Alright, maybe I made a mistake. Here I go with my English again. I didn't mean every character that you meet during the story, including Joker, Dr. Chakwas, the Cook or the girl sitting at a table. It's not a dating game after all. I meant every NPC that is romanceable already (Kaidan, Ashley, Tali, Garrus, Jacob, Miranda, Jack and Thane) should be available for both femshep and maleshep. Liara already is.

If I didn't make a mistake, I'll have to agree with you. It's a science-fiction RPG. Realism isn't really a big argument here.

You say turning a gay character bisexuall would expand the target audience significally but turning a straight character bisexuall wouldn't. On what basis do you make such a claim? It's not like only homosexuall players ask for it, really it isn't. Look how many pages and how many threads already exist about s/s romance in ME2 alone. Look at fanfiction, for example, there is a huge amount of s/s romance material available, especially fantasy and science fiction.

[jselene]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

zvbxrpl wrote...

Crazed-ex-jedi wrote...

Female Shep only like JE

Uh, you do know that your male PC can romance Sky if you've turned down the two female LIs in Jade Empire, right?

And that the screen of your PC will fade to black right before you kiss him ?

That's true for female/Silk Fox as well, though.  There's a fix out, but since only hetero kisses were animated, the PC's height will change.  (Unless you're playing Furious Ming.  His model was short anyway, iirc. )

[SorenTrigg]

I am here to show my support, again.

I am glad to see another one of these threads. I would have come in sooner if I had known it had been started up again.

[Bookman230]

jselene wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

zvbxrpl wrote...

Crazed-ex-jedi wrote...

Female Shep only like JE

Uh, you do know that your male PC can romance Sky if you've turned down the two female LIs in Jade Empire, right?

And that the screen of your PC will fade to black right before you kiss him ?

That's true for female/Silk Fox as well, though.  There's a fix out, but since only hetero kisses were animated, the PC's height will change.  (Unless you're playing Furious Ming.  His model was short anyway, iirc. )

Bioware stated that was a glitch. Besides, Zevran's scene with a male Warden was just as exstensive as Leliana's, Morrigan's, or Alistair's.

[sw33ts]

Soirreb wrote...

You are quite welcome!  I believe I found the Tali-bar somewhere on the Bioware forums and shamelessly copied to my own signature, and I think I downloaded the full-size picture from the forums as well, but I don't recall from where exactly I got the picture.

Speaking of Afghan Girl, I do admit the haunting eyes effect is quite similar.... 

Anyway, as to the title of this post, here's something I'd love to see in ME3 (besides a more comprehensive list of paramour options, including bisexual characters of both genders):

Perhaps one of the squadmates in ME3 might be a young Asari (other than Liara), fresh out of Commando training, eager to prove herself on the battlefield.  She's excited to be serving with Shepard, though mostly on a professional level; after her loyalty mission, Shepard sees a more personal side of the Asari, and then the romance subplot is enabled; however, differences based on Shep's gender would appear if it's pursued.  If M-Shep tries to pursue her, maybe she remains oblivious for a bit until catching on and rejects him then and there; she says that even if she was looking for something romantic, she'd rather have something closer to home.  If Fem-Shep pursues her, however, she responds more favorably, then is surprised at herself at how much she's looking forward to the inevitable consummation, considering this would be her first encounter outside her species.

The above could be done for a male Shepard, too, except instead of an Asari it could be a human male, or even another Drell or something.  Instead of the 'closer to home' line, maybe the rejection line could be 'sorry, but I'm looking for more mass to engage my drive.'

Her eyes are quite stunning.  I actually got back into drawing because of her.

Also, I like where you're going with this idea.  It feels similar to one of the suggestions in the first post, the one where you can rescue so and so or the opposite gender and he/she becomes a LI.

And dude who stated that if you're in this topic you can't join the badass club.  I hope you removed yourself from said club then.

Also, I agree with Syledir.  I don't understand why it's so wrong to open up everyone as bisexual for certain playthroughs.  I mean if we're talking realistic, how realistic is it for EVERY FEMALE to fall for a EVERY PARAGON MALE SHEP.  I mean really.  I think KOTOR did it great when they had romances for the good revan and bad revan (forgive me if I'm wrong I never actually finished the game).  I also think we need more than 1 token gay/token lesbian because Liara's great and all...but I wanted Ashley and only chose Liara cause Tali and Ashley weren't an option.  It'd be great as many people before me have stated if you could atleast hit on them and then they turn you down (and you throw them out the airlock.)

Modifié par sw33ts, 30 juin 2010 - 05:55 .

[M1tt3ns]

I briefly touched over my issues with the romances in an earlier post I made. Integrity of characters IS important, if Bioware feels like there is no way in hell a character could possibly feel attracted to one of the same sex due to their values that's just fine. But not being able to romance characters that players feel an attraction to only serves to generate negative play experiences which are something a designer should seek to avoid.

Now given that I've heard a lot of rumors about Tali and MaleShep's voice actor/actresses not wanting to 'play' a homosexual or bisexual character. If that's all just rumors and heresay, then DLC is a great way to impliment such a thing. It gives players the choice of what they would like in the game without destroying their save files with mods as I did in Dragon Age.

[Wittand25]

Syledir wrote...


You say turning a gay character bisexuall would expand the target audience significally but turning a straight character bisexuall wouldn't. On what basis do you make such a claim? It's not like only homosexuall players ask for it, really it isn't. Look how many pages and how many threads already exist about s/s romance in ME2 alone. Look at fanfiction, for example, there is a huge amount of s/s romance material available, especially fantasy and science fiction.

The mere fact that there are ten times more straight than gay people makes the assumption that the number of players persuing a straight romance is higher than those of persuing a gay romance, even if you take the fact that the gender and the sexual orientation of the player and the PC do not always match into account.
Just to make sure to get the point across, because my last posts seem to be misleading:
I am for the inclusion of both full m/m and f/f romances in the ME trilogie, prefareable before ME3 through DLC or an expansion. I just also believe that having one option is enough and that it would be wasted resources to make more than one fully developed option for both per game. I also think that the third romance per sex in ME2 was wasted resources that could have been better used for improving the main story or to implement friendships with the rejected/unavailable LIs.

[MaxQuartiroli]

jselene wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

And that the screen of your PC will fade to black right before you kiss him ?

That's true for female/Silk Fox as well, though.  There's a fix out, but since only hetero kisses were animated, the PC's height will change.  (Unless you're playing Furious Ming.  His model was short anyway, iirc. )

I know that fix.. It's one of the first mod I ever applied to a game...
But it also fixes the dialogues, cause they didn't cut not only the animated kiss scene, but also the more explicit and romantic sentences before it...

Bioware stated that was a glitch. Besides, Zevran's scene with a male Warden was just as exstensive as Leliana's, Morrigan's, or Alistair's.

What a strange coincidence for a glitch !! Both Silk Fox scene with a female and Sky scene with a male fade to black...while the other scenes triggers correctly. Yes.. I really trust it was a glitch...as long as I trust in tooth fairy

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 30 juin 2010 - 08:16 .

[MaxQuartiroli]

Syledir wrote...
Boombox wrote...
I agree with pretty much everything you said except this bit.. Characters still need to have their personality and not everyone in the world is bi or attracted to the same sex. I think it'll be completely UNREALISTIC and quite silly to make everyone an option..
ElitePinecon wrote...
You make a very good point - the problem being that at the moment there are no alternatives for s/s romances. Of course it would be UNREALISTIC to open up all squadmates to romance, same-sex or otherwise.

Alright, maybe I made a mistake. Here I go with my English again. I didn't mean every character that you meet during the story, including Joker, Dr. Chakwas, the Cook or the girl sitting at a table. It's not a dating game after all. I meant every NPC that is romanceable already (Kaidan, Ashley, Tali, Garrus, Jacob, Miranda, Jack and Thane) should be available for both femshep and maleshep. Liara already is.

If I didn't make a mistake, I'll have to agree with you. It's a science-fiction RPG. Realism isn't really a big argument here.

You say turning a gay character bisexuall would expand the target audience significally but turning a straight character bisexuall wouldn't. On what basis do you make such a claim? It's not like only homosexuall players ask for it, really it isn't. Look how many pages and how many threads already exist about s/s romance in ME2 alone. Look at fanfiction, for example, there is a huge amount of s/s romance material available, especially fantasy and science fiction.

Honestly I don't see where is the difficult in having all the romancable characters available for both genders, except the fact they'll have more expenses for write and record further and different dialogue lines.
In every story and in every game you play you see only what you want to see.. If a character is available for romance for both genders it doesn't mean that in the game it will act as a bisexual person.

If I romance Tali with a male Shepard you won't see her flirting with Jack or Miranda during the missions, therefore in your game she will be straight
If I romance her with a female shepard she will act as a lesbian character not as a bisexual, because she will flirt only with you and not with any other carachter, male or female. Every single game/playtrough must be considered as a separate/detached story where every character act in a different way but not in every possible way

You can play Shepard as Paragon or Renegade,.. it doesn't mean he is schizophrenic, but that one time you can play it in a way, another time you can play it in another way, but you'll always have separate stories, and if you don't like one of the to options you just can avoid it.. Same thing with the romances...

There is a big difference between what you can potentially do, and what you decide to do..

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 30 juin 2010 - 01:16 .

[SorenTrigg]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

If I romance Tali with a male Shepard you won't see her flirting with Jack or Miranda during the missions, therefore in your game she will be straight
If I romance her with a female shepard she will act as a lesbian character not as a bisexual, because she will flirt only with you and not with any other carachter, male or female. Every single game/playtrough must be considered as a separate/detached story where every character act in a different way but not in every possible way

Honestly, with Tali as an example specifically, she already tends to act like a lesbian if you are playing a female and straight if you are playing a male, given her dialogue with Shepard.
The only difference is you can't enter into a relationship with her as a female despite the dialogue seeming like you could.

[MaxQuartiroli]

SorenTrigg wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

If I romance Tali with a male Shepard you won't see her flirting with Jack or Miranda during the missions, therefore in your game she will be straight
If I romance her with a female shepard she will act as a lesbian character not as a bisexual, because she will flirt only with you and not with any other carachter, male or female. Every single game/playtrough must be considered as a separate/detached story where every character act in a different way but not in every possible way

Honestly, with Tali as an example specifically, she already tends to act like a lesbian if you are playing a female and straight if you are playing a male, given her dialogue with Shepard.
The only difference is you can't enter into a relationship with her as a female despite the dialogue seeming like you could.

Yes I used her as an example... Just change her name in my post with Ashley/Jack/Miranda and the result is the same...
In ME your romancable companions flirts only with you therefore each of them will be straight or gay/lesbian according to what you decide to do in that playtrough...

It's not like in Dragon Age where at the opposite you have Leliana and Zevran which try to flirt with other companions, in the dialogues between them...therefore you can see clearly they are bisexual.

As long as they won't introduce these dialogues in ME3 people won't see it.

[Boombox]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

If I romance Tali with a male Shepard you won't see her flirting with Jack or Miranda during the missions, therefore in your game she will be straight
If I romance her with a female shepard she will act as a lesbian character not as a bisexual, because she will flirt only with you and not with any other carachter, male or female. Every single game/playtrough must be considered as a separate/detached story where every character act in a different way but not in every possible way

Honestly, with Tali as an example specifically, she already tends to act like a lesbian if you are playing a female and straight if you are playing a male, given her dialogue with Shepard.
The only difference is you can't enter into a relationship with her as a female despite the dialogue seeming like you could.

Yes I used her as an example... Just change her name in my post with Ashley/Jack/Miranda and the result is the same...
In ME your romancable companions flirts only with you therefore each of them will be straight or gay/lesbian according to what you decide to do in that playtrough...

It's not like in Dragon Age where at the opposite you have Leliana and Zevran which try to flirt with other companions, in the dialogues between them...therefore you can see clearly they are bisexual.

As long as they won't introduce these dialogues in ME3 people won't see it.

I think a character's sexuality should still be the same regardless of what gender my character is. It's not something that should be able to change around. I really wouldn't want the option of s/s romances to give a wrong impression of gay/bi people. To me, having every love interest open to any gender gives the impression that being gay/bi is a choice and it's something that can be changed at the click of a finger.

That's my only problem, I understand that gameplay wise it'll be cool to be able to romance who ever you like but for me it'll be kind of sending the wrong message.
I know it's a sci-fi and it's not all realistic and everything but being gay/bi/straight is something that's realistic and enough people in the world believe it's a "choice" and that's something that's used against gay people all the time, I wouldn't want Mass Effect sending that message as well.

We do need some gay/bi characters but I just think it would give a better and more realistic impression if not all characters were bi..

[elearon1]

Most homosexuals I've known believe being bi is a choice, whereas homosexuality is not. Me, I couldn't say - to me being bi seems the same as being open minded; why limit yourself to just one ideology, be it intellectual, philosophical or sexual?

That said, I tend to agree that not all characters should be open to homosexual encounters - if one is a properly realized character then his or her sexuality is part of that. This is, of course, part of the problem with making characters who were initially meant to be bisexual and then removing the option, because it still comes across in their character.

That said, outside of human characters, it seems using the word gay might not quite fit to an alien species ... what is "gay" for a Krogan, or a Turian? Does the concept even exist for them? (that is, what evidence do we have that same sex relationships are any rarer that opposite sex relations? Or for that matter that exploring both isn't quite common among the cultures?  Or possibly even necessary for procreation?)

As for your human companions in ME2 I don't know. I have only ever played a female in that game, and avoided Jacob pretty severely once I realized the dialog seemed to be pushing me toward a relationship. Miranda ... I suspect she is bisexual if for no other reason than it would be another weapon in her arsenal. (that is, she is the type of person I could see being not so worried about the sex of her partner as what she could get out of them - and if that meant seducing a man or woman I can see her doing it)

Modifié par elearon1, 01 juillet 2010 - 02:42 .

[Eddo36]

I think some homosexuals should become devs and make their own game with a gay option. Simple.

[Siansonea]

I think the main point of the Mass Effect story IS the characters, Shepard, the squad, the crew, and everyone else in the game.



I think the gameplay is pretty much where it needs to be, combat is fun and challenging and doesn't need a whole lot of tweaking.



What does need revision in this game is the story, and the interaction with NPCs. Not just romantic interaction either. Give us more than you think we will ever want in this department, and you will be surprised at how many of us still want more. I want surprises, I want NPCs to do things on their own, not just wait at their designated spot until I activate them.



Why can't Miranda and Jacob rekindle their romance if Shepard isn't interested in one of them? Why can't Zaeed and Jack hook up or get into a fight and cause drama on Deck 4? Why can't Ken and Gaby teach Grunt to play cards? Why can't the guy who saved Joker get some face time? Seriously, this game needs to up the ante in this area, because they've already upped the ante in other areas, areas I don't necessarily care about. I play the game for the story and the characters, not the Widow Anti-Material Rifle and Singularity.



And yeah, same-sex romance options should be a part of the overall upgrade to the social aspect of the game. This game could be a rich tapestry full of surprising and fully-realized characters, right now it's merely a very good game.

[Siansonea]

I don't know what made me think of this, but has anyone else ever noticed that trolls always seem to select from a small set of avatars? It's gotten to the point where I notice an avatar and I'm instantly wary that I'm dealing with a troll. I wonder what it means?



And just a friendly reminder. Please Don't Feed The Trolls.

[ElitePinecone]

Siansonea II wrote...

I think the main point of the Mass Effect story IS the characters, Shepard, the squad, the crew, and everyone else in the game.

I think the gameplay is pretty much where it needs to be, combat is fun and challenging and doesn't need a whole lot of tweaking.

What does need revision in this game is the story, and the interaction with NPCs. Not just romantic interaction either. Give us more than you think we will ever want in this department, and you will be surprised at how many of us still want more. I want surprises, I want NPCs to do things on their own, not just wait at their designated spot until I activate them.

Why can't Miranda and Jacob rekindle their romance if Shepard isn't interested in one of them? Why can't Zaeed and Jack hook up or get into a fight and cause drama on Deck 4? Why can't Ken and Gaby teach Grunt to play cards? Why can't the guy who saved Joker get some face time? Seriously, this game needs to up the ante in this area, because they've already upped the ante in other areas, areas I don't necessarily care about. I play the game for the story and the characters, not the Widow Anti-Material Rifle and Singularity.

And yeah, same-sex romance options should be a part of the overall upgrade to the social aspect of the game. This game could be a rich tapestry full of surprising and fully-realized characters, right now it's merely a very good game.

An interesting perspective, something I haven't actually previously considered. I'd wonder though, to what extent a 'rich tapestry' of social options in the game would draw down on aspects that are more traditionally associated with the Mass Effect series (and games in general), such as combat and a wider story. Given the amount of work put into ME2 already, aiming for more realistic interactions with, and between squadmates might simply not be possible. Given the actual limits of reality (time, money, budgets, sales) I'd regrettably settle for s/s romances (as in, restoring opportunities rather than specifically expanding the system) rather than a wholesale redesgn of the social aspects of the game. I think it's a wonderful idea, and maybe someday it'll be a reality, but the resources and effort needed to actually accomplish that level of immersion (weighted against other demands on Bioware's time and money) may not be available.

elearon1 wrote...

That said, outside of human characters, it seems using the word gay might not quite fit to an alien species ... what is "gay" for a Krogan, or a Turian? Does the concept even exist for them? (that is, what evidence do we have that same sex relationships are any rarer that opposite sex relations? Or for that matter that exploring both isn't quite common among the cultures?  Or possibly even necessary for procreation?) 
 

You make an excellent point. Mystifyingly, Bioware seems to have downplayed the alien-ness of several Normandy crewmembers (especially Garrus and Tali) by giving them human mannerisms, speech patterns and even cultural norms (as has been discussed many times, why would an alien distinguish between male and female humans?). For that matter, are we even aware that traditional concepts of gender or sexuality exist in these apparently advanced societies? 

[Godlysnack]

Well I'm from the opposite side of the fence here.. I have no problem with the same sex relationships as long as like the OP said, give us an option on the import screen.. We are in a new age of gaming and as such we should have more options for romances and stuff be it same sex or inter-species (aliens not animals) whatever.. Doesn't bother me so much as long as the option to not let it happen for my game is there.



Also I would like to see more dialogue choices with our relationships as well.. Is it just me or does it feel kinda shallow.. You spend the whole game trying to woo your LI and then next thing you know you get 1 love scene then its final fight and game over..