9243 réponses à ce sujet

[catabuca]

Siansonea II wrote...

Have you tried telling him you're allergic to cats?

Merrill tells me there is a cat who's recently had a new litter. I may go try to find them and then do unspeakably cruel things to them in front of Anders. FOR SCIENCE, you understand.

[cedgedc]

catabuca wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

it'd be out of character for kaidan to start hitting on male shepard. theres absolutely ZERO sexual tension or chemistry between kaidan and male shepard, so why would that suddenly change years later?

i dunno, its alittle late in an established series to start changing characters. i'm all for there being gay/bi characters in ME3, but changing characters around is not the way to do it. using kaidan as my primary example, it would feel EXTREMELY forced and unnatural for him to suddenly start hitting on male shepard when there was nothing to indicate that might be a possibility in the previous games. theres just no in-game references to it in any way. so why force an established character to be bi? why not introduce a new bi character or something? whats wrong with that?

Oh boy. 

Quite apart from my whole 'it's subjective' and 'one doesn't need to express one's interest in the same sex at a particular point in their lives in order to be gay/bisexual' shtick up there -- which also came with a real life example from someone I lived with, no less ^^ (and if you'd like I could pull out my handy Gaider!quote to the same effect), I couldn't count the amount of people I've seen post in these forums over the past couple of years who would disagree with your assessment. Sexual tension? It was there in bucket-loads. Of course, just as I say your opinion is subjective, so is mine. 

Anyway, there is nothing wrong at all with introducing a new character. No one has ever said there was. Some of us, however, just take umbridge at the idea that you may only be regarded as bisexual or gay if you state it explicitly. Straight people do not need to fulfill the same requirement in order to be 'believable' as straight, since we generally assume someone is straight until proven otherwise. That's a problematic approach.

Not to mention Shepard- Man or woman- is just about the most eligeable bachelor in the universe, slayer of all things, and asskicker extraordinaire! Neither man, nor woman, nor alien can resist his/her charms!

[Finis Valorum]

Clonedzero wrote...

it'd be out of character for kaidan to start hitting on male shepard. theres absolutely ZERO sexual tension or chemistry between kaidan and male shepard, so why would that suddenly change years later?

i dunno, its alittle late in an established series to start changing characters. i'm all for there being gay/bi characters in ME3, but changing characters around is not the way to do it. using kaidan as my primary example, it would feel EXTREMELY forced and unnatural for him to suddenly start hitting on male shepard when there was nothing to indicate that might be a possibility in the previous games. theres just no in-game references to it in any way. so why force an established character to be bi? why not introduce a new bi character or something? whats wrong with that?

Says you, I think there's enough of a connection between MaleShep and Kaidan and besides Kaidan was originally ment to be bisexual anyways.
Don't worry though the ME dev team agrees with you, since I have it on good authority that the only m/m possibility might be Kelly's male replacement. So MShep can safely interact with all his male squadmates without fear of being indoctrinated into abandoning his predefined sexual identity by interacting with male sqaud mates.

[catabuca]

cedgedc wrote...

Not to mention Shepard- Man or woman- is just about the most eligeable bachelor in the universe, slayer of all things, and asskicker extraordinaire! Neither man, nor woman, nor alien can resist his/her charms!

Indeed. As the epic trilogy-spanning fanfic I'm writing at the moment proves. Along with the fact that Kaidan is, most definitely, hot for John Shepard.

[Clonedzero]

Siansonea II wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

it'd be out of character for kaidan to start hitting on male shepard. theres absolutely ZERO sexual tension or chemistry between kaidan and male shepard, so why would that suddenly change years later?

i dunno, its alittle late in an established series to start changing characters. i'm all for there being gay/bi characters in ME3, but changing characters around is not the way to do it. using kaidan as my primary example, it would feel EXTREMELY forced and unnatural for him to suddenly start hitting on male shepard when there was nothing to indicate that might be a possibility in the previous games. theres just no in-game references to it in any way. so why force an established character to be bi? why not introduce a new bi character or something? whats wrong with that?

I'm sure most people would be happy if they would just provide a new character. But your opinion that thus-and-such would be out of character, well, that's your opinion. I don't think it strains credibility at all. I mean, there were these two dextro-amino-acid aliens on my ship in the first game. One was a droning litany of All Things Geth, the other was a frustrated cop. Suddenly, in my second game, Buckethead and Claw Hammer are clamoring for opposite-sex Shepard's lovin'. Okay, I wouldn't have seen that coming, but not exactly a game-breaking twist of plausibility. And for Ash or Kaidan to finally realize that they have feelings for same-sex Shepard? Not game breaking. Not implausible in the least. After all, at least they're all HUMAN. Humans are weird like that. The more we try to put labels on them, the more those labels dry up and peel away.

oh i agree with you. garrus and tali romances are awkward and feel forced as well. pure fan pandering. and again, they shouldnt pander to whining fans and change established characters to make them bi. also, i think kaidan and ashley shoulda been bi in the first one from the start, it sucks that they werent but thats just how it was. doesnt mean they should flat out change the characters to appease people.

i really dont think they should force romances just because players want it. regardless of gender. if they're written for that then by all means, but i'd put the weird factor of kaidan being bi right up there with how weird it is for garrus to be into femshep. its just so random and out of character.

[Coach]

Arguing the possibility of Kaidan being bisexual seems harder than convincing the Council to acknowledge the Reaper Invasion. But it really shouldn't be. In fact, arguing something as "possible" should be a lot easier than arguing it as "impossible." The burden of proof is actually a lot more heavy on the shoulders of the latter claim, as it is an absolute claim with no room for change. You'd have to have a very fundamental understanding of a person's identity and psychology to make the statement that something about them is "impossible." On the other hand, arguing something as "possible" simply requires evidence which can hold "reasonable" (and I emphasize that word) scrutiny.

But I will point out that for me... I see the bisexual arch as entirely possible and (more importantly) plausible for the character of Kaidan. But in order to fully understand why, you'll have to stop thinking of sexuality in monosexual terms (because thinking in monosexual terms is the only way one could possibly think of this character being bisexual is impossible at this point).

For starters, there are a lot of bi/pansexuals out there who have a sexual preference. So, sure, Kaidan was probably more likely to hit on a female commander in ME1 than a male one. Granted, we do have to ignore the "unlockable" m/m recorded story arch to believe this as "pure fact" but since it was scrapped from the final product you could at least make the argument and be justified in doing so. Considering the population of humanity, it also makes statistical sense that a bisexual male would more likely flirt with a woman than a man. I'm a bisexual male myself, and thinking back on my own storied history I can see how that would be accurate in statistics when it comes to me... though I don't necessarily ascribe to the idea of "sexual preference" in the manner outlined above. It's simply math, really.

But then there's the other point... a lot of people don't necessarily feel "love at first sight" with their significant other. A lot of the time, feelings develop over substantial amounts of elapsed time. If I remember right (which I may not b/c I rarely retain anything of merit in my brain so that I can make room for all the nonsense I usually spew), Kaidan and Shepard had only been working together about a month before the events of ME1. And if you save his life on Virmire... and then if he loses you at the start of ME2? Chances are those two years have given him a realistic chance of thinking through his own feelings... perhaps even regretting not pursuing that option when he had the chance. Absence does make the heart grow fonder... or so I'm told by reclusive people.

Granted, I don't think Bioware will go this route, and it's not my intention to say, "Hey, this is what Bioware is going to do! Kaidan is definitely bisexual! Whoo!"

I don't hate the writers for that, really, but I do wish they'd have not taken out the option which was clearly already in the game to begin with. Thus, they technically have already "changed" Kaidan's sexuality in some respects. If anything, I think I'm advocating they restore him to his initial intent. I bring up these points because it's a lot easier to argue something is possible rather than something is impossible, as I stated above. To dismiss the claim (so to speak) of a character's bisexuality in this manner does seem a bit premature at this stage.

Not that I expect to sway anyone on this argument. I just wanted to make sure someone out there had the opportunity to see it from my point-of-view before making up their own mind. There is a difference, after all, between a lack of certain knowledge... and an outright rejection of it.

So keep fighting for the love, you guys!

[cedgedc]

catabuca wrote...

cedgedc wrote...

Not to mention Shepard- Man or woman- is just about the most eligeable bachelor in the universe, slayer of all things, and asskicker extraordinaire! Neither man, nor woman, nor alien can resist his/her charms!

Indeed. As the epic trilogy-spanning fanfic I'm writing at the moment proves. Along with the fact that Kaidan is, most definitely, hot for John Shepard.

Haha, Excelent!

[catabuca]

Coach Jon wrote...

... Snipped the masses of awesome for brevity's sake ...

You've said everything I think in a more wonderful way than I ever could. Thank you.

And may I take this opportunity to add you to my list of favourite people for your signature alone. How sad I was to not hear Bodahn say that once in the whole of DA2.

[Coach]

catabuca wrote...

And may I take this opportunity to add you to my list of favourite people for your signature alone. How sad I was to not hear Bodahn say that once in the whole of DA2.

You and me both!

[Finis Valorum]

Siansonea II wrote...

I'm sure most people would be happy if they would just provide a new character. But your opinion that thus-and-such would be out of character, well, that's your opinion. I don't think it strains credibility at all. I mean, there were these two dextro-amino-acid aliens on my ship in the first game. One was a droning litany of All Things Geth, the other was a frustrated cop. Suddenly, in my second game, Buckethead and Claw Hammer are clamoring for opposite-sex Shepard's lovin'. Okay, I wouldn't have seen that coming, but not exactly a game-breaking twist of plausibility. And for Ash or Kaidan to finally realize that they have feelings for same-sex Shepard? Not game breaking. Not implausible in the least. After all, at least they're all HUMAN. Humans are weird like that. The more we try to put labels on them, the more those labels dry up and peel away.

As with all RPG characters that would depend entirely on how well said character is written and how hot he looks and even then ymmv. If he's as obnoxious as Jacob and looks like a cross between Zaeed and Broodmother I might just pass. But again I don't think we'll get a squad mate for the m/m content if we're very very lucky we might get some sort of male Kelly and if we're even luckier he'll even look decent.
Also I fear that the overal tone of the third installment and the sense of impending doom might not provide the best backdrop for establishing any sort of meaningful romantic connection with any of the new squadmates so any amorous activity with them will most likely amount to nothing more than using eachother for mutual stress-reflief.
To be completely fair I only preceived Tali to be clamoring for it. The one with Garrus was actually pretty sweet and tender and FemShep has to come on rather strong to him to initiate it.

[ElitePinecone]

Just on the Anders comments - I've yet to play it all the way through, but already I've noticed two or three 'heart' dialogue choices even before the actual 'romance arc' starts. I'm presuming he makes his advance later on, but I haven't seen that yet.

Going back to player-initiated romances for a second, it'd make sense (for my mind) to give the player two or three opportunities to 'comment flirt' (via a heart choice) on the character before the romance shuts off and no future advance is made. This would allow an NPC to make advances on the player character, but only if an opportunity has been taken previously to compliment the NPC in conversations. To avoid any romance at all, players merely need to ignore the heart options and they'll never hear any romance dialogue. But players that do pick a heart have the opportunity down the line to either make an advance, or react to an advance, depending on how that character is written by the writing team.

[BAMBAM 97]

how bout you just have a whole ****load of romance options and it includes everything everyone likes im straight but im okay with bioware doing this

[catabuca]

Elite, the way the DA2 romances works seems to be this (as I understand it):

There are random options to flirt at certain points during the game, with LIs and other NPCs who aren't romanceable, using the heart icon. They don't all lead to romance, but are a pretty realistic way of being able to flirt without getting into any kind of relationship.

The specific romances actually 'trigger' during key conversations. For Fenris, for example, this happens during his 'Questioning Beliefs' quest in Act 2. You have to choose the heart icons in that conversation in order to get him to say he will 'consider it'. If you have also done his 'Bitter Pill' companion quest in that act, the next time you go to your estate he will be there, and you'll have the opportunity for some lovin'. During any of these key romance conversations, the presence of a broken heart icon indicates it can be make or break time. If there is a broken heart icon you have the opportunity to stop any romance from triggering, or to break one that has already triggered. If there is no broken heart icon, it isn't a crucial romance conversation, and you should feel free to flirt as and when you like.

With Anders this seems to be slightly different, in that, while you can 'harmlessly' flirt with Fenris right from the beginning without triggering anything until act 2, the conversation you have with Anders right after his 'Tranquility' quest in act 1 (his recruitment quest) might be seen as a key conversation. This is the one some people are upset about, because it's here he says he likes you, and it's here you can get the option of 2 <3s and 1 </3. The fact there is a broken heart in this conversation might suggest it's a more key conversation, but in this case I don't think that it is. Yes, you can put a stop to any advances then and there, but as I said before, I picked one of the hearts in that conversation and it didn't trigger a romance. I didn't flirt at all with him for the rest of the game, and he didn't with me, and I went on to successfully romance Fenris. Again, I believe Anders' key romance triggering conversation is in act 2, after his companion quest, during the 'Questioning Beliefs' quest that follows it. He doesn't initiate anything during this conversation -- it is entirely down to Hawke to do so. Anders doesn't initiate anything past that first act 1 convo (although if you are down the rivalry path with him, I think he may mention not knowing whether to kiss you or kill you ... I haven't got to that part yet, having only friendmanced him so far -- either way, it's a ridiculously hot scene ... it starts with him putting out milk for any cats near his clinic, just so you know what to look for ).

All of the LIs have to be at 50% friendship or rivalry in act 2 for their Questioning Beliefs quests to trigger, and it is only during those quests that you can 'lock in' the romance (further locking it in or breaking it during the resulting love scene that happens when you return to your estate). Any flirting done beforehand doesn't have an effect on locking in a romance, so players should feel free to flirt with dirty abandon.

[catabuca]

Ahem.

I just found out something interesting that may be of import to those who dredge up the *false* rumour that the bisexual content was removed because manShep's VA didn't want to voice a gay character:

Mark Meer voices Jethann, the bisexual and saucy-as-hell elf in DA2.

Is it too late to petition for Jethann, a.k.a. Brothel Elf, for LI in ME3? ;-)

[ElitePinecone]

Mark Meer voices Jethann!?!?!?!

I honestly had no idea.

Well, there's that theory gone...

[Destroy Raiden_]

DA2 has a different demographic they're shooting for people who like fairies, witches, and other such mystical creatures and there fore don't care if s/s is involved or not ME strives for RPGers and Shooters who want masculine type males can tolerate some flamboyant clothing on the RPGers part but dont' necessarily want s/s romance innuendos or hints being used on their characters or their characters using such on npcs in game. It's all about who you target and the main bulk of the target audience says no for ME and their ok with it for DA. You know they seriously demographic, poll, and expose their target viewers to these things before they ever release it to the public right? It's those people getting polled and sized up by the companies that decide in the end what is making it to the game and whats getting left on the editing floor same goes for movies.

[Coach]

I had to go look the character up on youtube to hear his voice again... but yeah, that's definitely ManShep! I knew he had done voices for DA2, I just never bothered to look up who it was.

[catabuca]

Coach Jon wrote...

I had to go look the character up on youtube to hear his voice again... but yeah, that's definitely ManShep! I knew he had done voices for DA2, I just never bothered to look up who it was.

Mark Meer approves of this thread.

[ElitePinecone]

Okay, from that photo I think it's safe to say Mark Meer is confident in his own skin. As an actor/improv comedian I daresay he'd be well versed in playing all sorts of roles.

Including a bisexual elf sex worker.

[RadioactiveSpider]

I loved Liara's romance in ME. The love was there. But...the obviousness of how that this romance was geared toward straight dudes was very unnerving. Even when she and I were alone I couldn't shake the feeling that Sheploo was watching.

<_< So then, Mass Effect 2 comes around. Twice as many LIs. No M/M to be found anywhere, and even a legit F/F romance is missing too. And after DAO got me all hopeful.

Bioware, you can do better. I know you can. Those dev teams need to start talking to each other.

I most definitely support S/S for Mass Effect. Hoping for more respectfully/tactfully handled F/F, and for M/M as well.

Modifié par RadioactiveSpider, 03 avril 2011 - 10:29 .

[Ryzaki]

I still am chuckling over the fact that Jethann is Meer.

No vocal range my foot.

[KawaiiKatie]

Ryzaki wrote...

I still am chuckling over the fact that Jethann is Meer.

My horribly alone gay male Shepard is named Johnathan. I'm now going to pretend that his nickname is Jethann.

Come on, Bioware! Please, please let my gay!Shepard find his big, strong soulmate in ME3! I mean, we all know that Shepard works hard, but he could definitely be working harder.

[Parah_Salin]

Didn't read all of this, and this point has probably been mentioned, but considering inter-species sex is totally cool some same sex romance options wouldn't even really be bringing up anything provocative. I mean who knows what the aliens have for naughty bits? Actually now I'm curious...like might have tentacles or something.

Plus I feel like Kaiden would have made a better gay guy. That isn't meant as a put down either, it's just his personality, demeanor, haircut, etc...fit. But they fit in a way where it's like you would define him as this devoted alliance soldier with all kinds of baggage relating to L2 implants, oh yeah, and he might also go for dudes type thing. Plus FemShep needs more of a man than him, or maybe an asari who probably has some biotic techniques. FemShep also seams totally comfortable hitting on girls of all species, so why cant man she be comfortable doing the equivalent? I mean hell, he's planning on taking out the reapers, facing god like mindcontrolling spaceships probably loaded with indoctrinated armies, you thing he would be able to face his sexuality

[MisterDyslexo]

Parah_Salin wrote...

Didn't read all of this, and this point has probably been mentioned, but considering inter-species sex is totally cool some same sex romance options wouldn't even really be bringing up anything provocative. I mean who knows what the aliens have for naughty bits? Actually now I'm curious...like might have tentacles or something.

Yes yes, this here ^

I don't understand how some people see romance with Buckethead, Claw Hammer, and Frogthroat all as fine, normal romances, but gawk at the idea of a same-sex one. And yes, we have no idea what its like "down there", so to speak. I figured that it doesn't matter much with asari, because they have their mental radiation mind**** type power thinmgs (I'm so eloquent, I know), but we have these three. Thane makes you hallucinate when you have oral contact with him. Garrus and Tali aren't made of amino acids. Its literally life-threatening to have sexual contact with them, even moreso, its even more dangerous to do it with Tali. I'd call a moral issue to have sex with Tali, and compare it to being in a relationship with somebody who is HIV positive. And of course, the gentials might just not match up. Not every multicellular organism is penis-vagina. Not plants, not animals. I don't know why for a second people would assume that the aliens are even compatible, except maybe from the krogan expression "to have a quad", which is like today's "to have a pair", and Mordin's comment saying "do not injest", which still can be taken numerous ways. This has always been the mind-boggling thing to me. Even then, somehow, gender is actually relevant to the aliens. Seriously? Garrus won't touch MaleShep, no Talimance for FemShep? Really? Its not a thing of gender roles, because we've seen those thrown out in that time, with female space marines, as a good example, and the Liara romance as another piece of evidence. Plus, genders seem completely equal in Quarian culture. While not so in Turian culture, FemShep is not even close to what seem sto be the female standard of a turian. And we know absolutely about drell culture and gender.

/rant

And lets not forget the fact there is the token, half-assed same-sex romance for FemShep, with Kelly Chambers. Having this romance, but not a m/m romance, projects two things from Bioware, which many people would consider appalable. One is that women are indeed meant to be held to a different standard, not equal to men. It also promotes women as a sex object, by playing the "hawt lesbians" card, which sadly works, and is targeted generally at adololescent boys without any real sense of maturity. It also projects, through the absence of a gay male, that they're unworthy of even being present. Now while I doubt that they really feel this, it is the message being thrown out there. But people and remembered for their actions, and things remembered for how they turned out, not intentions for either. So it doesn't quite shine well for BioWare to condone interspecies sex, one could speculate beastiality even, but condemn consensual relations between two men.

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 04 avril 2011 - 01:19 .

[Parah_Salin]

exactly. Except I have no issues with the Tali romance. She, and you are going into a SUICIDE MISSION, so if it's really true love then you might as well go for it.

this being said you might have some kind of flexible kinetic barrier condom thing. And part of what makes Tali a likable character is her sort of defiant and occasionally hotheaded nature when she is provoked about things she cares about, so it makes sense that she might take a "I fought armies of geth, a rogue specter, every alien race, even thresher maws along with shep, who cares if I get a little sick after getting with the savior of the galaxy. Like her doing that fits with her character.

Modifié par Parah_Salin, 04 avril 2011 - 01:10 .