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[catabuca]

blue.o7 wrote...

It's better to have no hope and be pleasantly surprised.

*hopes to be pleasantly surprised*

Damn...I broke my own rule..

Dammit blue. You've made me realise how split-personality I am on this issue. In the lead up to DA2, I was FIRMLY (with the exception of a minor wobble near the end) in the YAY AUFGESTOCKT camp, 100% optimistic, and proclaimed loudly that I'd rather be hopeful and optimistic even if it didn't turn out to be true because at least I'd enjoy the lead-up to the game.

But man, I'm the complete opposite with ME. My heart is like a shrivelled black stone, heavy in my chest, and I'm just about the most pessimistic person there is, apart from Ryzaki, although her pessimism appears more gleeful than mine ;-)

[ElitePinecone]

catabuca wrote...

blue.o7 wrote...

It's better to have no hope and be pleasantly surprised.

*hopes to be pleasantly surprised*

Damn...I broke my own rule..

Dammit blue. You've made me realise how split-personality I am on this issue. In the lead up to DA2, I was FIRMLY (with the exception of a minor wobble near the end) in the YAY AUFGESTOCKT camp, 100% optimistic, and proclaimed loudly that I'd rather be hopeful and optimistic even if it didn't turn out to be true because at least I'd enjoy the lead-up to the game.

But man, I'm the complete opposite with ME. My heart is like a shrivelled black stone, heavy in my chest, and I'm just about the most pessimistic person there is, apart from Ryzaki, although her pessimism appears more gleeful than mine ;-)

I'm preferring (almost totally) baseless optimism to (realistic) pessimism, if only because I'd like to be hopeful rather than entirey despondent. 

Plus, we've seen small flickers of at least an awareness from Bioware that s/s romances are missing from the ME universe (Gavorn's tongue-in-cheek video in the Shadow Broker files, for example). 

It'd be hard to argue after nearly four years of these sorts of threads (plus probably a dozen media articles post-ME2 and in the lead-up to ME3) that they weren't aware of the issue. Even the two or three "What we want to see in ME3" articles that mentioned s/s romances for Shepard of both gender are encouraging. 

[catabuca]

ElitePinecone wrote...


I'm preferring (almost totally) baseless optimism to (realistic) pessimism, if only because I'd like to be hopeful rather than entirey despondent. 

Plus, we've seen small flickers of at least an awareness from Bioware that s/s romances are missing from the ME universe (Gavorn's tongue-in-cheek video in the Shadow Broker files, for example). 

It'd be hard to argue after nearly four years of these sorts of threads (plus probably a dozen media articles post-ME2 and in the lead-up to ME3) that they weren't aware of the issue. Even the two or three "What we want to see in ME3" articles that mentioned s/s romances for Shepard of both gender are encouraging. 

That's true. It's clear that critically, in the media, it would be viewed as a positive move. But whether that's enough or not, to make them finally take the plunge, is a whole other matter.

Anyway, it's too late now. I hear ME3 is all but finished (as in, was playable over Christmas), so if it's in it's in, if it's not, it's not.

But the lead-up to ME3 means there's a lot of publicity, a lot of people waiting for information, a lot of people with an eye out for anything ME related ... in my mind that makes it all the more important to keep on being vocal about this, because eyes could also be on us.

Modifié par catabuca, 11 avril 2011 - 02:53 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Maybe James Sanders will be romanceable for s/s?

[Cootie]

catabuca wrote...
But the lead-up to ME3 means there's a lot of publicity, a lot of people waiting for information, a lot of people with an eye out for anything ME related ... in my mind that makes it all the more important to keep on being vocal about this, because eyes could also be on us.

O_O

I'll have to bar my windows and head for the safe room. I don't want no stalkers.

At the very least, if there isn't an actual s/s romance in ME3, I want there to be SUCH a media fiasco that it encourages other developers to broaden their horizons where Bioware were too cowardly to even be honest about it.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Other developers have allowed homosexuality in their games. I know one. It wasn't sex, but it was definitely considered a homosexual action.

[Tirigon]

Midey wrote...

Female Shepard can be bisexual, homosexual, asexual or heterosexual woman, while "pre-made" male Shepard has to be a straight man (everyone loves Miranda!!). Feminism!

Miranda may actually be male. She was just genetically altered to look appropriately female.......

[JediMB]

Miranda is about as male as Cammy is.

Modifié par JediMB, 11 avril 2011 - 06:39 .

[Spinner]

Tali's loyalty mission showed a warm loving being behind that mask of her, she made me cry.
As femshep, I wanted to show her my feelings, but the game wouldn't allow me to go further then 'I'm honered to link suits with you'.

[Blacklash93]

Whatever the outcome, we can still push for Bioware to recognize that roleplaying as a gay Shepard in Mass Effect is always a valid way to play.

Really, all I want is just a few words stating that. Pleasing the fanbase doesn't get cheaper than that.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 11 avril 2011 - 09:10 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Really, all I want is just a few words stating that. Pleasing the fanbase doesn't get cheaper than that.

A nice PR statement clarifying the "Shepard isn't gay (unless she's female)" notion would be extremely welcome. Please, Bioware?

[JediMB]

Spinner wrote...

Tali's loyalty mission showed a warm loving being behind that mask of her, she made me cry.
As femshep, I wanted to show her my feelings, but the game wouldn't allow me to go further then 'I'm honered to link suits with you'.

Anyone who chooses not to hug Tali during her loyalty mission must have a heart of bedrock.

Oh... my first (FemShep) playthrough was so disappointing on the LI side of things. Rejected by Tali and Jack, creeped out by Jacob, uncomfortable around Garrus' talks about reach and flexibility, and too late to get anywhere with Thane.

[ElitePinecone]

Cootie wrote...
At the very least, if there isn't an actual s/s romance in ME3, I want there to be SUCH a media fiasco that it encourages other developers to broaden their horizons where Bioware were too cowardly to even be honest about it.

Helpfully, the presence of non-straight romance options in Bioware games has become so expected by gaming media and the internet in general that there's usually a reaction when (like in ME2) s/s romances aren't included. 
I remember at least three or four media articles about it (from reputable organisations, not just lobby groups) and the infamous (famous?) Hudson and Myzayka interview with *that* question got a lot of attention and commentary. 

It's significant, I think, that the overwhelming majority of media attention given to DA2's s/s romances wasn't the fact that they existed, but that someone had blindly rushed into complaining about them, only to be (very eloquently) repudiated by Bioware and David Gaider. Articles that did explore the s/s themes were mostly really thoughtful (Yahtzee Croshaw did a great piece on Anders, for example). 

Again, the fact that some speculative pieces about "what we want to see/ might see in ME3" have even mentioned the lack of s/s romances is welcome - if only because someone outside this cavernous echo chamber that we call the forums is listening 

Edit: Odd spacing is odd..

Modifié par ElitePinecone, 12 avril 2011 - 05:50 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

Spinner wrote...

Tali's loyalty mission showed a warm loving being behind that mask of her, she made me cry.
As femshep, I wanted to show her my feelings, but the game wouldn't allow me to go further then 'I'm honered to link suits with you'.

Or like the nalia/aerie cross from BG2.
Nalia's father killed by troll. Party kills troll. Nalia "DIE! Die you beast!" and then crying. And like aerie she goes on about her life story.

Well perhaps bi tali makes sense now.

[earthbornFemShep]

I will jump in with the others on this forum and "hope" that Bioware puts some sort of s/s option in for sheploo.  I felt so bad for my gay Shep that I modded a relationship between he and Kaidan.

I liked how DA2 did things.  Yeah, I don't agree that everyone on this Earth is bisexual; however, when I was playing I didn't really know the orientations of any of the characters until I started to flirt with them (aside from Isabela... she made her fluid sexuality quite clear).  So, as LadyHawke I didn't know Fenris, Varris, or Anders sexuality (though Anders did hit on me once...ugh).  I still don't know Varris or Sebastian's sexualities because I've never flirted with either of them.  The symbols in the conversation wheel also made avoiding romance (or pursuing it) much clearer.

So, I think it is silly to complain that there is a problem with the characters being attracted to your main character when the only reason you'd know that is if you were flirting with them.  If Mass Effect implemented a gay male character that was not attracted to femShep at all and was low key around Sheploo until actively pursued, I don't think there would be an issue.  Of course, some people will always find something to complain about ('I don't want a gay guy on my squad' 'Shepard can't be gay because he's too bad a**' etc), but I would think that a majority of gamers would be fine with it.

Modifié par earthbornFemShep, 13 avril 2011 - 06:21 .

[android654]

Midey wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Midey wrote...

Female Shepard can be bisexual, homosexual, asexual or heterosexual woman, while "pre-made" male Shepard has to be a straight man (everyone loves Miranda!!). Feminism!

Miranda may actually be male. She was just genetically altered to look appropriately female.......

So my Shepard had sex with her and didn't discovered it. Hell no!

She tucked it.

[ElitePinecone]

android654 wrote...
She tucked it.

Now there's a distressing image. 

[android654]

ElitePinecone wrote...

android654 wrote...
She tucked it.

Now there's a distressing image. 

Meh, it works for trannies. Not that I would know...

Modifié par android654, 14 avril 2011 - 05:31 .

[catabuca]

earthbornFemShep wrote...

[snippysnipsnip]

Of course, some people will always find something to complain about ('I don't want a gay guy on my squad' 'Shepard can't be gay because he's too bad a**' etc), but I would think that a majority of gamers would be fine with it.

Yep, no matter what way it was implemented there would be complaints.

I find it interesting that the same people who were upset by Zevran coming on to them in DAO are the self same ones who are now praising DAO as 'the right way to include gay content', as a way of criticising how DA2 handles it.

Rather than getting angry about that, I'm choosing to see it as proof that once you simply just start including that kind of content, it eventually becomes accepted as 'normal'. People who didn't want gay presented to them in DAO are now acceding that it was fine in that game after all (even though it's taken the presence of even more of this content to decide that).

[Biotic_Warlock]

catabuca wrote...

earthbornFemShep wrote...

[snippysnipsnip]

Of course, some people will always find something to complain about ('I don't want a gay guy on my squad' 'Shepard can't be gay because he's too bad a**' etc), but I would think that a majority of gamers would be fine with it.

Yep, no matter what way it was implemented there would be complaints.

I find it interesting that the same people who were upset by Zevran coming on to them in DAO are the self same ones who are now praising DAO as 'the right way to include gay content', as a way of criticising how DA2 handles it.

Rather than getting angry about that, I'm choosing to see it as proof that once you simply just start including that kind of content, it eventually becomes accepted as 'normal'. People who didn't want gay presented to them in DAO are now acceding that it was fine in that game after all (even though it's taken the presence of even more of this content to decide that).

Anyone thinking that if u kill the archdemon, the trolls would retreat?

[darkiddd]

I will try to express my thoughts very clearly:

I wouldn't mind homosexual relations in a Bioware game, I wouldn't play this option because I'm not homosexual but consider fair to give this opportunity to other gamers who may had other sexual orientations BUT I don't want this to be the excuse of Bioware to make every character in a game bisexual as they did in DA2, sorry but this is just plain silly, this just makes every romance and character generic and shallow, Bioware went from the "all characters are hetero to all characters are bi" and this is just another type of sexual imposition.
Now some homosexual people may think this is the only way to make posible homosexual relations. I don't think so, Bioware can make at the same time in the same game characters with different sexual orientations, some can be bisexual, some heterosexual, and some homosexual, DIVERSITY PEOPLE. And if an homosexual player doesn't like this because they wanted to romance a character who had other sexual orientation... well this is as life itself, I may like also in the game a woman who is lesbian, so I couldn't romance her too. But I'll repeat this again, making every character bisexual makes a very generic game in the character development aspect, something Bioware always classed until DA2. My worst case scenario would be seeing every Bioware game starting with Mass Effect 3 with this system. Don't do this ever again Bioware.

[ElitePinecone]

darkiddd wrote...

I will try to express my thoughts very clearly:
snip

I suspect a lot of people agree with you - I agree with you - but Bioware have many concerns to think about when designing romances.

Namely, they have to think about how many would play each romance (if any) and whether these numbers justify the investment of time and resources. Clearly, we would argue, there is a market for same-sex love interests. But potentially not one that would warrant a dedicated gay or lesbian romance option over one available to all players. Bioware have the numbers and statistics from their game telemetrics - we don't know what they were for DAO or DA2, but they were clearly enough to make including s/s content in DA2 worthwhile. 

I'd also argue that it's possible to construct the love interests and their diaogue in such a way that they *appear* exclusively straight, or lesbian, gay, whatever, within that particular playthrough, while also being open to other genders in *other* playthroughs. The best example I can think of in this regard is Kaidan's cut m/m romance from the first Mass Effect - he doesn't mention his relationship with Rana if you're romancing him as a male Shepard (she jjust becomes "a girl" who he defended out of honour, not because he felt anything for her). The capacity for romancing both genders in different playthroughs doesn't make a character bisexual if they are only written as straight or not in each distinct gameworld.

I wouldn't blame any perceivde shallowness in DA2's romances on the s/s content (even though I found them anything but shallow) - more likely this is a symptom of the lack of development time that seemed to affect many sections of the game. If anything, I thought the romances were one of the most enduring and immersive aspects of the game's story.