9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Wittand25]

darkiddd wrote...

I agree that there should be variation amongst the LIs. However there should also be choice for the players and in order for that you need more than one available LI. Zevran/Leliana in DA:O were great but DA2 was better since if you wanted to pursue a s/s romance you had two very different options per gender.
So regarding new games it depends on the number of LIs if I prefer them to be all bisexual or to have various sexual preferences. If there are two or less per sex they should be bisexual to give the biggest part of the players the most choice, if there are more than two new full romances (which I doubt considering all the carry over romances) having some of them straight and others bisexual is OK.

The personality is anyway much more important than the sexual orientation for a romanceable NPC. Fenris and Anders have, even though both are romanceable by both genders, very differnt personalities and even their romances play out differently. Not regarding game mechanics because all four Lis are identical in that respect, as are the six of ME2, but the story told is quite different (SPOILERS Anders moves in act two and lives together with Hawke until the end, while Fenris ends the relationship in act two only to come back to Hawke in act three SPOILERS)

[lolwut666]

Good luck with this.

Personally, I wouldn't go for the gay romances, but there is no harm in leaving the option there for those who choose to take it.

I don't think you'll find much resistance to this on the fandom itself. The problem are the parents, and the media, and all those other bigots.

Obviously, BioWare wants to sell, and they can't sell if their product is censored. That's just the painful reality.

[didymos1120]

lolwut666 wrote...

Good luck with this.

Personally, I wouldn't go for the gay romances, but there is no harm in leaving the option there for those who choose to take it.

I don't think you'll find much resistance to this on the fandom itself. The problem are the parents, and the media, and all those other bigots.

Obviously, BioWare wants to sell, and they can't sell if their product is censored. That's just the painful reality.

Um, Dragon Age? 

[lolwut666]

^

I didn't know it gay romances. I never played it, to be frank.

Scratch what I said, then.

[catabuca]

Nyoka wrote...

Hmm. How exactly makes a romance shallow and generic for you the fact that other people, in other places, are hearing the same lines you are hearing? I mean, if noone else is able to do that romance then everything's cool, but if other people gets to do it, then it's generic? How can other people's actions with their own characters have an effect in yours?

Imagine you're talking with a friend about Jack's romance. You're both cool and both of you have a positive opinion of it. You thought it was well made. Then, your friend says "I play Femshep". If this were possible but you didn't know it, would your opinion of Jack's romance change because what your friend did? Would you now think the romance is bad, that is not written well, even that you don't like it anymore? The romance itself hasn't changed. Your experiencing of it is still exactly the same. How can it magically become "shallow"?

This is the same as complaining because I play renegade and paragons can do the same romances I do. And it's equally illogical. I'd say the depth and the uniqueness of a romance lies in the quality of the writing, not in whether other people can have access to it.

This is exactly my thinking as well.

I honestly would like to hear from those who believe it would make for a shallow romance exactly WHY that is and WHAT aspects of the romance would somehow be altered.

If Fenris in DA2 had only been romanceable by female Hawkes, their romance would have run in exactly the same way it does now. Allowing male Hawkes to experience the same romance doesn't take anything out of the female romance, it plays exactly the same. How does that make the character shallow during a femHawke playthrough? It doesn't. How does it make the romance shallow when playing through as a male Hawke? It doesn't. Those romances would be exactly the same if they were only available to one or the other gender, simply because of the way BW wanted to construct its romances in this game in the first place.

Allowing both genders of Hawke to romance the same characters takes away absolutely nothing from either of those romances, it only ADDS content and opportunity and choice and options for ALL players.

And it's freaking wonderful.

Modifié par catabuca, 15 avril 2011 - 04:22 .

[Siansonea]

In a perfect world, there would be romanceable characters that are heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual. In a perfect game, you could initiate a romance with almost anyone you encounter, but would have success with only the ones who are appropriately receptive to your character based on a number of factors, one of which is your character's gender. But we're not there yet. Until we are there, I'm fine with bisexual LIs, as they maximize the number of replay permutations. As long as the characters are interesting and the scenes well-written, I don't mind the variation from real-world sexuality statistics. It's a video game, and it's an optional story element, so we have to make some compromises for the sake of giving as many people as many options as possible.

[catabuca]

Siansonea II wrote...

In a perfect world, there would be romanceable characters that are heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual. In a perfect game, you could initiate a romance with almost anyone you encounter, but would have success with only the ones who are appropriately receptive to your character based on a number of factors, one of which is your character's gender. But we're not there yet. Until we are there, I'm fine with bisexual LIs, as they maximize the number of replay permutations. As long as the characters are interesting and the scenes well-written, I don't mind the variation from real-world sexuality statistics. It's a video game, and it's an optional story element, so we have to make some compromises for the sake of giving as many people as many options as possible.

Hear hear, well said, bravo, etc.

[Cootie]

I had actually prepared a long-winded post for this and toyed with it in my brain, but since someone had to butt in and say basically the same thing, but better, I chose to paraphrase.
BUT BUT BUT BUT LESS OPTIONS IN A GAME ABOUT OPTIONS MAKE FOR A BETTUR GAME ABOUT OPTIONS!

Darn you guys for being so clever. Darn you to heck.

[catabuca]

Cootie wrote...

I had actually prepared a long-winded post for this and toyed with it in my brain, but since someone had to butt in and say basically the same thing, but better, I chose to paraphrase.
BUT BUT BUT BUT LESS OPTIONS IN A GAME ABOUT OPTIONS MAKE FOR A BETTUR GAME ABOUT OPTIONS!

Darn you guys for being so clever. Darn you to heck.

*soothes Cootie's frustration*

There, there. You managed to still get the point across in your own inimitable way.

*gives Cootie a cookie*

[darkiddd]

Siansonea II wrote...

In a perfect world, there would be romanceable characters that are heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual. In a perfect game, you could initiate a romance with almost anyone you encounter, but would have success with only the ones who are appropriately receptive to your character based on a number of factors, one of which is your character's gender. But we're not there yet. Until we are there, I'm fine with bisexual LIs, as they maximize the number of replay permutations. As long as the characters are interesting and the scenes well-written, I don't mind the variation from real-world sexuality statistics. It's a video game, and it's an optional story element, so we have to make some compromises for the sake of giving as many people as many options as possible.

Well, actually we were there in DA:O and now we are not there in DA2. 
In DA:O there were two characters who were bi, a reasonable number for players who wanted to experience other romances
In DA2 all romanceable characters are bi. is this better? Is this a "complete experience" as I've been told?

Sorry but I find this nonsense, in real life you can't romance everyone as if the gender didn't matter, videogames, or at least Bioware games until DA2 tried to emulate real life relations (of course you can't compare real life relations with Bioware games relations but they were the ones who were at least a step ahead the others and now they have made a step behind). Yes having all romances bisexual is extremely generic, when you try to approach to a bigger audence this sometimes happens, you offer a dumped down option to barely content a lot of people instead of contenting a normal number of people a lot. Again I'm only saying Bioware should make characters with different sexual orientations, not just one, because in real life this doesn't happen. thay have to offer variety to all players instead of imposing just one sexual orientation.

Bioware went for the cheap way and decided to make every romance bi instead of spending more resources to offer variety. They did well in Origins (maybe they could have included other homosexual character/s instead of just two bisexual characters if nobody wanted to romance Leliana or Zevran) but now they have made exremely generic romances in DA2.

 

 

[Ryzaki]

In real life Morrigan wouldn't have been impressed by a the paragon of niceness many played while romancing her (including myself) does this mean she should've only romanced males who made certain decisions? After all not doing so makes her shallow because her acting the same to my PoN as my manipulative bastard isn't realistic.

Also would you have been okay with the dispairty if say Morrigan and Alistair were gay while Zevran and Leliana remained the Bi options?  

Everyone's not straight after all. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 avril 2011 - 09:48 .

[bluuberg]

There seems to be an awful lot of talk about real life in here for talking about a game that either way doesn't really affect anyone in real life besides the ways they imagine in their heads...

This decision is not about real life, it is about the people playing the game. 100% of people playing the game can experience whatever they want...and this is somehow bad? Again, any imagined problem with there not being a pure straight option so people don't have to share a romance with 'teh gay' is bull****. It doesn't magically make any of the romances in DA2 any less worthy.

But whatever, all of this arguing is pointless.

[darkiddd]

Ryzaki wrote...

In real life Morrigan wouldn't have been impressed by a the paragon of niceness many played while romancing her (including myself) does this mean she should've only romanced males who made certain decisions? After all not doing so makes her shallow because her acting the same to my PoN as my manipulative bastard isn't realistic.

Also would you have been okay with the dispairty if say Morrigan and Alistair were gay while Zevran and Leliana remained the Bi options?  

Everyone's not straight after all. 

No Morrigan shouldn't have been impressed by a paragon of justice and you shouldn't have been able to romance her, but give her some gifts and you should be fine... that is another theme, the debatable effectivity of the like/dislike system in DA:O isn't related to the sexual orientations of the characters, if Morrigan is a woman and heterosexual and you are a man and heterosexual then the biggest obstacle to romance her has already been beaten, again just as in real life.

About your question yes I would have been okay because that would be part of the characters personality and I would respect that. As I said in my first post on the previous page, if I wanted to romance in the game a woman who is homosexual then I wouldn't rage, because I'd understand she has another sexual orientation, just as an homosexual player couldn't romance say Zevran if he had been heterosexual, this is what happens in real life, people with different likes and orientations, you can't be with everyone as in DA2. Bioware went lazy and said "let's make all characters bi to make possible any kind of romance to any gender"...lol wut is this an improvement? where is variety?

Everyone's not bisexual after all. 

[catabuca]

darkiddd wrote...

Well, actually we were there in DA:O and now we are not there in DA2. 
In DA:O there were two characters who were bi, a reasonable number for players who wanted to experience other romances
In DA2 all romanceable characters are bi. is this better? Is this a "complete experience" as I've been told?

Sorry but I find this nonsense, in real life you can't romance everyone as if the gender didn't matter, videogames, or at least Bioware games until DA2 tried to emulate real life relations (of course you can't compare real life relations with Bioware games relations but they were the ones who were at least a step ahead the others and now they have made a step behind). Yes having all romances bisexual is extremely generic, when you try to approach to a bigger audence this sometimes happens, you offer a dumped down option to barely content a lot of people instead of contenting a normal number of people a lot. Again I'm only saying Bioware should make characters with different sexual orientations, not just one, because in real life this doesn't happen. thay have to offer variety to all players instead of imposing just one sexual orientation.

Bioware went for the cheap way and decided to make every romance bi instead of spending more resources to offer variety. They did well in Origins (maybe they could have included other homosexual character/s instead of just two bisexual characters if nobody wanted to romance Leliana or Zevran) but now they have made exremely generic romances in DA2.

1) "A reasonable number". According to whom? You? So you think it's perfectly reasonable for only people who want to play a straight PC to actually get a choice of who they romance in the game, while those who want to play a gay PC are refused a choice? Okay, you concede toward the end that perhaps they could have included other homosexual characters for those who didn't like Leli or Zevran. Do you realise how much extra work it is to implement completely new characters from scratch, purely to satisfy a romance? Giving multiple bisexual options for both playable genders is the better option under current circumstances because it a) gives the same amount of choice to all players; and is the most cost-efficient way of achieving 'a'.

2) "In real life you can't romance everyone". In DA2 you can't romance everyone. I have the option to initiate a romance with 4 people, out of, how many? Well, 7 in my party (if we include Sebastian -- although I realise my thinking is a little skewed because I don't count him as an LI). 4 out of 7 are interested in me. Sounds pretty good. But wait, how many people does Hawke meet during his/her time in Kirkwall? Loads! S/he doesn't get the chance to romance Seneschal Bran, or Meredith, or Seamus, or the guy behind the bar at the Hanged Man. S/he doesn't get a chance to see if Lady Elegant is interested, or if any of his/her smuggler contacts fancy shacking up. So many people Hawke meets and gets to know to varying degrees throughout the game and yet being able to choose from 4, a whole FOUR ohmylife, is unrealistic? Oh, wait, it's because those 4 happen to be bisexual. And that is totally beyond the pale.

3) They are bisexual. Get over it. So far, despite a couple of playful flirts with other companions, my Hawkes have only pursued one LI per game. The sexual orientation of the other 3 means nothing to Hawke during that game. Why does the fact they are all bisexual matter? Can Hawke somehow not even be friends with them in a meaningful way? Or does it mean that because Anders, Fenris, Isabela and Merrill can be gaying it up or playing it straight in another game somewhere across the globe they are suddenly sucked of all life and reason, limp paper dolls flapping in the wind? Nope. They are the same characters I love, regardless of whether someone else of a different gender is asking them to move in with them or not.

4) "BioWare went cheap". It's a fact of game development. Like it or not, the best way to be able to offer the most choice to the most amount of players while remaining within the confines of budgetary requirements is to allow all LIs to be romanceable by either playable gender. We can argue about whether it would be better to offer a panoply of LIs in every flavour imaginable until the cows come home, it doesn't change the fact that BW wanted to give everyone a little bit of choice, rather than only letting some of the players have most of the choice. That sounds fair to me.

In conclusion: Nothing has been taken away from the romances in DA2 because of the characters' orientation. All that has changed from DAO is that now everyone has the same choice. That is, literally, the only change (with regard to our conversation here). Their character development would have been the same had they been straight or gay or bisexual. Their romance scenes would have played out the same way. The amount of times you'd have been able to talk to them in their homes would have remained the same. The way they kissed you and told you they loved you would have remained the same. The ONLY thing that has changed is that now everyone can experience that. Why on earth that upsets some is beyond me. Perhaps it is just that they don't like to share.

Regardless, while it's clear we are going to draw from DA2 and its discussions in this forum, this thread is primarily for the discussion of Mass Effect. Since ME3 isn't going to have all LIs be romanceable by either playable gender it is somewhat of a moot point anyway.

[Ryzaki]

darkiddd wrote...
No Morrigan shouldn't have been impressed by a paragon of justice and you shouldn't have been able to romance her, but give her some gifts and you should be fine... that is another theme, the debatable effectivity of the like/dislike system in DA:O isn't related to the sexual orientations of the characters, if Morrigan is a woman and heterosexual and you are a man and heterosexual then the biggest obstacle to romance her has already been beaten, again just as in real life.

But your arguement about realism is about the sexual orienations. So yes that gift giving system would also play apart. If you actually want realism in sexuality and character traits you should see her falling in love with certain Male PC's vastly unrealistic and out of character. (As well as the gift system in general). And again no it isn't. I have several men I would never sleep with on sheer principle. Them being men doesn't give them a better chance at wooing me than a female I feel close to. And I hate to break it to you but gender isn't the biggest obstacle in romance. Attraction is. (Personality or looks) 

About your question yes I would have been okay because that would be part of the characters personality and I would respect that. As I said in my first post on the previous page, if I wanted to romance in the game a woman who is homosexual then I wouldn't rage, because I'd understand she has another sexual orientation, just as an homosexual player couldn't romance say Zevran if he had been heterosexual, this is what happens in real life, people with different likes and orientations, you can't be with everyone as in DA2. Bioware went lazy and said "let's make all characters bi to make possible any kind of romance to any gender"...lol wut is this an improvement? where is variety?

Everyone's not bisexual after all. 

Actually if your a hetrosexual man/woman you *can* be with all the LIs you can possibly pick. The only people who end up with limited options are those who play gay characters. 

And real people with real orientations have real personalities that they wouldn't romance. So unless you're pro making Morrigan only accessible to a male character who agrees with her views and someone she would respect enough to fall in love with I don't see the point in bringing up reality. 

What is this variety you'e talking about other than making characters inaccessible to someone else because of the gender they rolled? 

I could understand if you would prefer characters talk about their sexual histories (so would I frankly) but saying making someone straight and another person bi isn't variety. It's locking out content t one player and allowing another access to both. Why not just make Leliana and Zevran gay and lock out some more content. Then everyone can have one choice. Oh wait. Being stuck with one choice isn't fun. 

[bluuberg]

Yes everyone isn't bisexual in real life, but this is a game. A game where more choice = better. Where more choice does not = you losing out in any way. *sigh*

[catabuca]

I really don't understand how more choice = less variety. Really scratching my head over that one, ngl.

[Maugrim]

catabuca wrote...

I really don't understand how more choice = less variety. Really scratching my head over that one, ngl.

Less choice is doubleplusgood!

[catabuca]

makenzieshepard wrote...

catabuca wrote...

I really don't understand how more choice = less variety. Really scratching my head over that one, ngl.

Less choice is doubleplusgood!

*snorts*

Indeed.

[Emyer]

I kinda like that the characters have defined sexualities, stuff like Jack saying she "isn't part of the girls' club"(Why does she always think my Sheps are hitting on her?! FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF) ads a bit more character to her I think, I don't at all oppose bisexual characters like Isabela, Fenris, Merrill, Leliana, Zevran, etc... but when they change characters or make them "playersexual" just to pander I don't appreciate it , like Anders, apparently his sexuality is wholly dependent on which set of genitalia the character I roll has...

The way it should be done, imo, is give the player the opportunity to flirt and hit on anyone(Thus you can define whether your Shepard is straight, gay or bi) but make it possible for said character to reject the players advances, because of sexuality or other circumstances(Like Jack, Samara or Aveline/Varric from DA2), that said I'm fine if they make the new ME3 LIs all bi but don't make characters like Jack, who has already stated she's straight, bisexual just to please the crowd.

[Creator001]

DA2 is bad enough, but you want to put a tombstone on ME?!
Over my dead body!
I dont asosiate myself with Shepard, but still I cant imagine doing something like that even in my worst nightmare. It is simply insulting! As much as you want it Shepard isnt your personal blowdol!

He is almost living character! And developers arent slaves who answer to your every demand!
Hell what kind of writer would agree to that? Wouldn the very creator of Shepard be discusted with himself whyle animating all this stuf?

Female action ?
I dont realy care. It is not my place to say anything. Women can answer for themselves. If they in to that kind of stuf - then please by all means go ahead!
All men are idiots anyway...at first glance.

In DA2 it was hard enough to avoid cowardly action between man, simply cous it was there! Every time i tryed to make friendly conversation - gay-talk poped up! How can you respect that character and continue working towards better relations when you know he might grab your ass out of the blue?!

[jlb524]

Emyer wrote...

I kinda like that the characters have defined sexualities, stuff like Jack saying she "isn't part of the girls' club"(Why does she always think my Sheps are hitting on her?! FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF) ads a bit more character to her I think

Why, exactly?

Considering that some straight LIs like Tali or Ashley never bring up their sexuality is it a detriment to their character?

[N7 Vanguard]

I don't really care, as long as the male squad mates aren't hitting on me every chance they get like in DA2. Then i decline their advances and they hate me? Whatever.

I know that i will be irritated if Garrus keeps hitting on me while i am just trying to have a conversation with him.

[Dante Angelo]

For some reason I have a feeling that Kaiden & Ashley will be BI. I always felt like Kaiden Alenko had a crush on Sheperd. Mainly because of how he reacted in ME2 about shepard being part of Cerberus and him saying I should've contacted him first and told him I was alive.Also because the music playing in the background seemed somewhat romantic.