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[george martin]

Cootie wrote...

george martin wrote...

There are no recoverable scenes or lines that imply shepard or any of his/her same sex squad mates are gay. If anything like that would've happened in ME1 or 2 it would, all of a sudden in ME3 no sorry makes no sense. Kaidan talks about liking a beautiful turkish women during biotic training and enjoys looking at Liara. He also makes comments about the Asari strippers but never once made any comment about the same sex? Again makes no sense.

You know all of those movies where the villains die and are brought back somehow for the sequel?

SPOILER ALERT:

See The Matrix Trilogy for details.

END OF SPOILER.

That is a result of something we'd like to call writing. And usually, writing is fluid. It keeps moving the story forward. You see, there are things that alter over periods of time. This happens everywhere. One example could be the clouds moving, the earth, et cetera.

The point I'm trying to make is that whatever happens is in the hands of the writers and developers. They have the power, no matter your interpretation, they know whether or not Kaidan is of this or that sexuality, and they know they can justify it.

Because right now, what you're saying is this:
"What? Shepard would never do this or that for this organisation that is different from the Alliance Military! He didn't do anything of the sort in the first game!"

Project Lazarus brought Shepard back to life, it's painfully short in explanation and detail but hey you said they have the power. Now gay romance options emerging for no apparent reason with absolutely no explanation makes even less sense. If other crew members are gay what do I care. I certainly expressed no interest what so ever in the first 2 games which are stories, now all of a sudden in the 3rd I come out of the closet? Seriously? I'm concerned about the story line not if someone's gay or not, it was in DA:O and i was fine with that.

No explanation for a major romance change in Shepard does even worse for his character development. He doesn't have all that much yet, this just makes him look like a very confused man who can save the galaxy yet not determine why he has such a sexual change of heart?

Modifié par george martin, 16 avril 2011 - 01:58 .

[Cootie]

N7 Vanguard wrote...

Cootie wrote...
The above applies to you as well, I believe. Not as much, but a little.
I'm sure you're capable of figuring out which parts I'm talking about. ^^

I agree somewhat. I think it would be better to have a extra option to say what you want but only if you make the first move. My idea of Garrus and some of the other squad mates is straight though.  They just seem like straight characters, always have and there is nothing wrong with that. Kaidan is the only one i really see as being a little more "flirtaious" so to speak. I would be okay with him being bisexual. Haha too complicated for me right now.

I believe the simplest solution to this problem would be to have an all-bisexual crew as in DA2, but make Shepard the one to initiate them, although I personally loved the Anders-part of that game.
Such a strong character.

And prior to any romance-initiation, there should not be any hinting towards sexualities. "To keep the gay out of the game" so to speak.
Or rather, to make sure that Garrus stays straight in your head unless you romance him as a maleShep.

[ElitePinecone]

george martin wrote...

There are no recoverable scenes or lines that imply shepard or any of his/her same sex squad mates are gay.

Linky.

Also, in the "recovered dialogue", Kaidan doesn't mention the Turkish girl, Rana, as someone special to him. He confronts the Turian because he's defending a fellow classmate, not because he has feelings for her.

The point is moot in any case - consistency has never been a necessary feature for gaming when it gets in the way of innovation. Garrus and Tali were purposefully made romancable despite not showing any attraction to Shepard in previous games.

Further, Shepard never explicitly defines his/her sexuality (except, amusingly, in that clip above).

[Cootie]

george martin wrote...

Project Lazarus brought Shepard back to life, it's painfully short in explanation and detail but hey you said they have the power. Now gay romance options emerging for no apparent reason with absolutely no explanation makes even less sense. If other crew members are gay what do I care. I certainly expressed no interest what so ever in the first 2 games which are stories, now all of a sudden in the 3rd I come out of the closet? Seriously? I'm concerned about the story line not if someone's gay or not, it was in DA:O and i was fine with that.

No explanation for a major romance change in Shepard does even worse for his character development. He doesn't have all that much yet, this just makes him look like a very confused man who can save the galaxy yet not determine why he has such a sexual change of heart?

Now, sir, you are starting to repeat yourself, over and over again, and I am starting to believe that you have shut your brain off while you were reading my post, for you clearly missed the point I was trying to make.

Here, I'll re-quote the most important part to make it easy for you.
"They (The Writers) have the power, no matter your interpretation, they know whether or not Kaidan is of this or that sexuality, and they know they can justify it." - Cootie

And why are you under the impression that this will change your Shepard?
Did your female Shepard, who romanced, I dunno, Kaidan in the first game suddenly fall for Garrus because he became available in the second game?

And how come sexuality-drama suddenly weakens a character? I would argue it strongly develops a hero in the middle of a crisis. A meta-crisis, if you will.

Keep in mind that this is the point I mentioned in a previous post. I'm a gracious host right now, but if you're still not listening, you'll have lost all credibility.

Modifié par Cootie, 16 avril 2011 - 02:09 .

[george martin]

N7 Vanguard wrote...

Cootie wrote...
The above applies to you as well, I believe. Not as much, but a little.
I'm sure you're capable of figuring out which parts I'm talking about. ^^

I agree somewhat. I think it would be better to have a extra option to say what you want but only if you make the first move. My idea of Garrus and some of the other squad mates is straight though.  They just seem like straight characters, always have and there is nothing wrong with that. Kaidan is the only one i really see as being a little more "flirtaious" so to speak. I would be okay with him being bisexual. Haha too complicated for me right now.

Exactly. The entire story they've portrayed themsleves as they are, which seems quite straight to me. If they had portrayed themselves as gay or bi before it would make sense but all of a sudden in the 3rd game? That is one major leap for story writing.

[Cootie]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Linky.

Also, in the "recovered dialogue", Kaidan doesn't mention the Turkish girl, Rana, as someone special to him. He confronts the Turian because he's defending a fellow classmate, not because he has feelings for her.

The point is moot in any case - consistency has never been a necessary feature for gaming when it gets in the way of innovation. Garrus and Tali were purposefully made romancable despite not showing any attraction to Shepard in previous games.

Further, Shepard never explicitly defines his/her sexuality (except, amusingly, in that clip above).

Strangely enough, I can't remember ever seeing that until now. O.o
Awesome!

And even more strangely, I've found myself enjoying Mark Meer's voice acting a lot more since DA2's release. >.>

[Creator001]

I see you are armed with arguments up to your teeth!

Truth be told I don’t want go get over here and fight for my beliefs, but I guess I have
no choice:

1 General public dislike gays. Your time is over. You are not oppressed heroes anymore. You cant use those pretty eyes to get what you want.

2 Yeah, sure BioWare can get the job done. Garrus would love to swing that way once or twice with everyone… Oh and don’t mind nightmares in which he will constantly reap you to shreds…  it’s probably bad
karma. All the other characters would absolutely love to Do it  your way.

However new characters are possible…

It will probably take a lot of work to build them from scratch just for you… but there
is no real choice in that matter. Because if you ruin OUR characters in any way
- You, and developers will experience terrifying  nightmares till the end of time. We will make sure of that

3 I giveup.

THE RIGHT -  is yours.

Cannot argue there.

But I’m just oppose to idea of making a common whor*  out of your respected and beloved character…
When someone doesn’t want to swing your way, you do not cuff him to a radiator and
force yourself on HIM!

IS THAT HEAVY ENOUGH FOR YOU?

 

It is Violation of art.

 And it just doesn’t shine[/i][/b] anymore after you spit on it!

Food tastes
bitter, sun doesn’t shine and god damn birds doesn’t sing when someone ruins
someone you believe in!

4 I agree but cannot accept.

Something strong inside me just don’t want to break and give in!

5 You have your truth and we have ours.  You are right. But we are not wrong.

……………………………………………….

So where do we go from here? 

Modifié par Creator001, 16 avril 2011 - 02:36 .

[george martin]

Cootie wrote...

george martin wrote...

Project Lazarus brought Shepard back to life, it's painfully short in explanation and detail but hey you said they have the power. Now gay romance options emerging for no apparent reason with absolutely no explanation makes even less sense. If other crew members are gay what do I care. I certainly expressed no interest what so ever in the first 2 games which are stories, now all of a sudden in the 3rd I come out of the closet? Seriously? I'm concerned about the story line not if someone's gay or not, it was in DA:O and i was fine with that.

No explanation for a major romance change in Shepard does even worse for his character development. He doesn't have all that much yet, this just makes him look like a very confused man who can save the galaxy yet not determine why he has such a sexual change of heart?

Now, sir, you are starting to repeat yourself, over and over again, and I am starting to believe that you have shut your brain off while you were reading my post, for you clearly missed the point I was trying to make.

Here, I'll re-quote the most important part to make it easy for you.
"They (The Writers) have the power, no matter your interpretation, they know whether or not Kaidan is of this or that sexuality, and they know they can justify it." - Cootie

And why are you under the impression that this will change your Shepard?
Did your female Shepard, who romanced, I dunno, Kaidan in the first game suddenly fall for Garrus because he became available in the second game?

And how come sexuality-drama suddenly weakens a character? I would argue it strongly develops a hero in the middle of a crisis. A meta-crisis, if you will.

Keep in mind that this is the point I mentioned in a previous post. I'm a gracious host right now, but if you're still not listening, you'll have lost all credibility.

Sure, writers can justify anything and they did in ME2 which was poorly written, great game but very shoddy story line compared to ME1.  Anyone can say they can justify anything. What does that mean exactly and how do you know they can justify anything? Justify Shepard's lack of character development after being alive a 2nd time? That was one of the biggest glaring holes in ME2. No talk about that? But they justified it by saying Lazarus brought you back that's all you need to know don't even bother worrying about it. You're the first being in the galaxy to be resurrected, it's not a big deal a couple people will be surprised. It's like the rain happens all the time.

You're right they can justify anything, only at the expense of logic and sound reasoning sure. Jeez you didn't know I was into you Kaidan? Oh ya i was with Liara right? How come we never talked about it then? Why wasn't I attrected to you then?

Writers can justify anything, doesn't mean it's a good story or good writing.

[Dante Angelo]

Creator001 wrote...

I see you are armed with arguments up to your teeth!

Truth be told I don’t want go get over here and fight for my beliefs, but I guess I have
no choice:

1 General public dislike gays. Your time is over. You are not oppressed heroes anymore. You cant use those pretty eyes to get what you want.

2 Yeah, sure BioWare can get the job done. Garrus would love to swing that way once or twice with everyone… Oh and don’t mind nightmares in which he will constantly reap you to shreds…  it’s probably bad
karma. All the other characters would absolutely love to Do it  your way.

However new characters are possible…

It will probably take a lot of work to build them from scratch just for you… but there
is no real choice in that matter. Because if you ruin OUR characters in any way
- You, and developers will experience terrifying  nightmares till the end of time. We will make sure of that

3 I giveup.

THE RIGHT -  is yours.

Cannot argue there.

But I’m just oppose to idea of making a common whor*  out of your respected and beloved character…
Whensomeone doesn’t want to swing your way, you do not cuff him to a radiator and
force yourself on HIM!

IS THAT HEAVY ENOUGH FOR YOU?

 

It is Violation of art.

 And it just doesn’t shine[/i][/b] anymore after you spit on it!

Food tastes
bitter, sun doesn’t shine and god damn birds doesn’t sing when someone ruins
someone you believe in!

4 I agree but cannot accept.

Something strong inside me just don’t want to break and give in!

5 You have your truth and we have ours.  You are right. But we are not wrong.

……………………………………………….

So where do we go from here? 

You sound both Hateful and Diplomatic all at once

[bluuberg]

You understood any of that? I applaud your skills XD

[Cootie]

george martin wrote...

Sure, writers can justify anything
and they did in ME2 which was poorly written, great game but very shoddy
story line compared to ME1.  Anyone can say they can justify anything.
What does that mean exactly and how do you know they can justify
anything? Justify Shepard's lack of character development after being
alive a 2nd time? That was one of the biggest glaring holes in ME2. No
talk about that? But they justified it by saying Lazarus brought you
back that's all you need to know don't even bother worrying about it.
You're the first being in the galaxy to be resurrected, it's not a big
deal a couple people will be surprised. It's like the rain happens all
the time.

You're right they can justify anything, only at the
expense of logic and sound reasoning sure. Jeez you didn't know I was
into you Kaidan? Oh ya i was with Liara right? How come we never talked
about it then? Why wasn't I attrected to you then?

Writers can justify anything, doesn't mean it's a good story or good writing.

I for one agree with you on some of those points. There was a GLARING lack of character development in ME-2. Things that were just dismissed just 'cause.
That, however, is not what we're after. We're after well-written romances that are open to both orientations. And I am certain that if you spent, what, ten minutes pondering those questions you posed in your second paragraph in a realistic manner to think of answers, you'd figure something out.

Creator001 wrote...

*snips everything*

Hooboy.

You do know that one of the many benefits of, well, art in general, lies within interpretation. You, however, seem greatly offended that some interpretations differ from yours.

By your definition, Kaidan is straight, Garrus doesn't hit on you and there are no children anywhere.
You can keep your definition. You have yours. Those that have defined another Shepard, different from yours, however, might not have the tools they desire to act out their interpretation.

We do not spit on art. If anything, you cage art, you define art.

But on to your other points, you are correct. You are not wrong.
We just want the option to be not wrong, as well.

How can you deny us that, when you are so hasty, so committed to defend YOUR interpretation?

Modifié par Cootie, 16 avril 2011 - 02:59 .

[didymos1120]

Creator001 wrote...

I see you are armed with arguments up to your teeth!

Truth be told I don’t want go get over here and fight for my beliefs, but I guess I have
no choice:
*snip* 

Man, if I had Xanax handy, I'd totally offer you some.  You could definitely use it.

[DaeJi]

Creator001 wrote...


So where do we go from here? 

Hopefully the "everyone, old and new, is bisexual!!!" route that Dragon Age 2 went.

[george martin]

DA has same sex partners, ME doesn't. You can't get what you want in every game, I played DA and had no dispute with the romantic gay options. Did it bother me in the least? No, it's clear these characters swing both ways who cares it's been established and some of the conversations are funny. Magically introducing same sex partners in ME3 would be like Aragorn courting Faramir out of the blue. Just wouldn't make any sense.

[graciegrace]

george martin wrote...

DA has same sex partners, ME doesn't. You can't get what you want in every game, I played DA and had no dispute with the romantic gay options. Did it bother me in the least? No, it's clear these characters swing both ways who cares it's been established and some of the conversations are funny. Magically introducing same sex partners in ME3 would be like Aragorn courting Faramir out of the blue. Just wouldn't make any sense.

Except ME does have the option for female players. 

[didymos1120]

george martin wrote...

DA has same sex partners, ME doesn't.

Unless you're Femshep.

[Cootie]

In before "But Liara is nawt wimmins! She just looks, acts, sounds and feels exactly like women dew! And your PA is just a BAD ROMANCE!

GRAH GRAH FLAW FLAW FLAW!"

We've heard it before. We dismissed such claims.
And now I'm going to bed. Finally. Arghblargh.

[Dante Angelo]

Cootie wrote...

In before "But Liara is nawt wimmins! She just looks, acts, sounds and feels exactly like women dew! And your PA is just a BAD ROMANCE!

GRAH GRAH FLAW FLAW FLAW!"

We've heard it before. We dismissed such claims.
And now I'm going to bed. Finally. Arghblargh.

Isn't Kelly a Bi option too

[ERJAK2]

I am in full support of dragon age 2ing all the romances in this game. I always have been.


That said I HATE treading these threads.

[george martin]

Cootie wrote...

george martin wrote...

Sure, writers can justify anything
and they did in ME2 which was poorly written, great game but very shoddy
story line compared to ME1.  Anyone can say they can justify anything.
What does that mean exactly and how do you know they can justify
anything? Justify Shepard's lack of character development after being
alive a 2nd time? That was one of the biggest glaring holes in ME2. No
talk about that? But they justified it by saying Lazarus brought you
back that's all you need to know don't even bother worrying about it.
You're the first being in the galaxy to be resurrected, it's not a big
deal a couple people will be surprised. It's like the rain happens all
the time.

You're right they can justify anything, only at the
expense of logic and sound reasoning sure. Jeez you didn't know I was
into you Kaidan? Oh ya i was with Liara right? How come we never talked
about it then? Why wasn't I attrected to you then?

Writers can justify anything, doesn't mean it's a good story or good writing.

I for one agree with you on some of those points. There was a GLARING lack of character development in ME-2. Things that were just dismissed just 'cause.
That, however, is not what we're after. We're after well-written romances that are open to both orientations. And I am certain that if you spent, what, ten minutes pondering those questions you posed in your second paragraph in a realistic manner to think of answers, you'd figure something out.

Creator001 wrote...

*snips everything*

Hooboy.

You do know that one of the many benefits of, well, art in general, lies within interpretation. You, however, seem greatly offended that some interpretations differ from yours.

By your definition, Kaidan is straight, Garrus doesn't hit on you and there are no children anywhere.
You can keep your definition. You have yours. Those that have defined another Shepard, different from yours, however, might not have the tools they desire to act out their interpretation.

We do not spit on art. If anything, you cage art, you define art.

But on to your other points, you are correct. You are not wrong.
We just want the option to be not wrong, as well.

How can you deny us that, when you are so hasty, so committed to defend YOUR interpretation?

I'm not offended at all by anyones interpretation. It doesn't take long to discover gender orientation possiblities in DA. It did not in the least offend me, hearing women talk about breasts on a bridge and one liking the others, well odd place to happen but I was certainly listening intently.

My point is that this makes no sense. Would a gay character all of a sudden become straight if they've been a gay character the whole time? Probably not.

[DaeJi]

Dante Angelo wrote...

Isn't Kelly a Bi option too

Yes. Finding flaws in the "Mass Effect doesn't have gay romance" stance is like finding water in the ocean.

[jlb524]

Cootie wrote...

Hmmmm... something just came to mind, and one of my mini-discussion-polls popped up again.

We keep hearing about how meaningful romances become once they're exclusive to one gender or another, or how sexuality deepens the romances.
We also keep hearing about how a crew of all-around-bisexuals is cheapening and whatnot.

We keep hearing this but I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation for why that is.

[DaeJi]

jlb524 wrote...

We keep hearing this but I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation for why that is.

Meanwhile we have have Sky, Silk Fox, Liara, Leliana, Zevran, Anders, Merrill, Fenris, and Isabela for an explanation as to why bisexual love interest work.

[Dante Angelo]

mrsph wrote...

Kelly isn't really a romance

True she's more like an affair.Nonetheless Shepard can have a sexual relations with her regardless of gender