9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Maugrim]

Kids remember just say no!

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 16 avril 2011 - 05:32 .

[Dante Angelo]

Creator001 wrote...


Ok onward we march! Like knights in shining armor. Regarding Interpretations. I am as likely to defend them, as I am to abandon them.Someone once said:There are no facts only interpretations.And if it is so, then I am free to wonder in search of truth.
I may have come down as storm filled with rage, I apologize for that. In my opinion, we are merely observing one truth from two different angles, and therefore we come to different conclusions. Truth is – we both want something. We want this game to be better.

Your position is better, as you stand on holy ground of acceptance.  And I am standing on denial.You want to divide an apple, while I want to conquer it all for myself. My position may seem selfish and unjust.  But it all depends on how you will look at it. I simply defend OUR ideals when you try to pierce them.  I am the shield, and you are the sword.

'Allowing bisexual to take major part in ME3 - means stepping down, giving up somethingWhat we have here is nothing major.  Simple and understandable conflict of interests. Nothing more, nothing less. 

Sex is close to religion. You chose to Believe that : 2/1 =2  And I believe  that :  2*1 = 2  Our answers are the same, but our Interpretations are different. 

I could say:  It is out of our hands! There is nothing we could really do, but that is untrue. Developers control every aspect of upcoming game. But then again nothing is written in stone. They may decide to allow or deny bisexual relations in last moment. And there is slight chance that our discussion may influence their decision. I could say that this discussion is pointless, but you would easily prove me wrong. 212 pages speak for themselves.

Cage: I have to tell the truth. Those words hit me hard. And that. I won’t let go so easily.
Yes, I am prepared to cage art. I am prepared to restrict, polish and cut art, to turn rocks in to sparkling diamonds. Rules and obstacles are there for reason. Without restrictions, moral and ethical laws we are nothing more them primitive animals. Rules make us stronger. .
AND Freedom is a double edge sword, it strikes both ways. Balance must be maintained!!!  We both have freedom. You and I.  What is freedom? It is the ability to make our choices, and embrace the consequences. I chose to uphold rules, and reach for MY perfection, my truth. And you… you chose to abandon rules and follow your path. I can probably write pages of critic and come up with a hand full of good reasons why bisexual relations should not be allowed, like how will it damage the game and characters, how it will affect gaming experience, and so on, and so on. 

But will it change anything? In the end  after all that philosophical  garbage we must find a suitable compromise for both parties, otherwise we are hitting brick wall. 

Wow you're really taking this seriously aren't you??

Modifié par Dante Angelo, 16 avril 2011 - 05:43 .

[Creator001]

I’m not the kind to back down, if I get myself in to something I see it through.

[jlb524]

Creator001 wrote...
What is freedom? It is the ability to make our choices, and embrace the consequences. I chose to uphold rules, and reach for MY perfection, my truth. And you… you chose to abandon rules and follow your path.

But, but, I like MY perfection, my truth more than yours.

[didymos1120]

Creator001 wrote...

I’m not the kind to back down, if I get myself in to something I see it through.

And what exactly do you think that entails here?  Winning converts to your viewpoint? Somehow "winning" the thread?  Good luck with that.  At "best" you cause enough of a ruckus to get the thread shut down by a mod.  Well, guess what?  It'll just get re-started after a cooldown period. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 16 avril 2011 - 06:15 .

[catabuca]

george martin wrote...

I'd support it if this was the 1st game but it's not, Shepard is not gay in any part of the storyline in ME1 or 2 nor are there any gay romance options, Shepard is not attracted to the same sex. It's clear Shepard is not gay. ME2 already had big enough plot holes for me I don't need or want anymore. DA:O had gay romance options and I didn't think it silly because it's the 1st one, if people want to play as gay characters fine, but for the central plot character to all of a sudden come out with it. No, makes no sense.

For gay romance options to suddenly pop up out of no where completely destroys Shepard's character and his previous relationships. Some people are straight, gay or bi, I don't care what people choose it's their decision. if your straight, gay or bi that needs to be addressed in the beginning not the last game. Shepard can save the galaxy but can't express his different sexual views until the 3rd installment? Be hard to believe he'd out right cheat on his previous LI for the same sex. Shepard isn't married, Shepard can do whatever he/she wants and has nothing to hide, why this change now it would make 0 sense.

I do not support any change that conflicts with the original story line rendering it mute.

I've chosen to quote this post because it was your first, but you can take this as a reply to all of your subsequent posts, if that's okay.

"Shepard is not gay".

In reply to this I will focus on a male Shepard, for 2 reasons: 1, my canon Shepard is male; 2, femShep can identify as a lesbian and pursue a relationship appropriate to that orientation with Liara in the game. The latter is something that has been discussed already, and I can add nothing more to that debate other than reiterate that femShep has to find Liara's female body and characteristic attractive otherwise she wouldn't be attracted to her. Whether this makes that particular femShep bisexual, lesbian or pansexual is down to the individual player to determine.

On to my reply.

I take offense. My Shepard is gay. He has been gay all his life. He was gay during the events of ME1, he was gay when Project Lazarus resurrected him, and he will still be gay when the reapers invade in ME3. He is a gay man. He knows his sexuality, he is proud of it, it is, quite simply, a part of who he is.

During the events of ME1 and ME2, there were no crew members aboard the SR-1 or SR-2 who were made available by the developers for Shepard to hit on. So he didn't hit on anyone. He remained alone. He didn't suddenly think, "Hey, maybe I'm straight after all, after all these years!", just because of the presence of a handful of LIs who were available as straight romance options. He was still gay.

You appear, throughout your posts, to be confusing the roles of Shepard and the crew. Shepard has a handful of pre-defined traits that are integral to the story. Like being a marine. Or being badass. His sexual orientation is not one of those pre-defined traits. There is nothing in the game that suggests Shepard has an orientation of one thing or another. There is no grand statement about which way he swings that is forced upon me by the game. The presence or absence of gay, straight or bisexual crew members and LIs does not affect Shepard's own orientation. Just as if I work in an office with all straight people, that does not make me straight as well. And if a straight person happens to go to a gay club with some friends, that does not make them gay. Who you are attracted to, romantically and/or sexually, is what 'makes' you one orientation or another. Not the presence or absence of gay, straight or bisexual people around you.

"For gay romance options to suddenly pop up out of no where completely
destroys Shepard's character and his previous relationships."

No it doesn't. My Shepard has always been gay. It would merely mean now there was someone aboard the ship he could finally show an interest in, if, indeed, he was attracted to them as a person as well.. Your Shepard wouldn't have to. It wouldn't invalidate your Shepard's previous relationships. You might well have just said, "To introduce any new LIs in ME2 or ME3 completely destroys Shepard's character and his previous relationships." I mean, Shepard could have been in love with a human in ME1, right? So the introduction of a quarian romance in ME2 surely would have 'destroyed' Shepard's character, since he wasn't attracted to those aliens in ME1. Oh, but maybe he was, and the game just didn't give us the option to pursue one. Do you see the parallel?

You, the player, set the boundary about who and what your Shepard finds attractive. The game writing itself is left open enough that you have that freedom. To reiterate: the presence of the option for Shepard to initiate a romance with a character of a particular orientation does not mean that he has to take that option (for it is an 'option', after all), nor does the mere presence of those characters say anything about Shepard's orientation. And, ultimately, it is a little offensive to be told that my Shepard does not or cannot exist. He does exist. He's sat on my hard-drive right now, silently existing, waiting for ME3. And he's gay.

[bluuberg]

catabuca wrote...

george martin wrote...

I'd support it if this was the 1st game but it's not, Shepard is not gay in any part of the storyline in ME1 or 2 nor are there any gay romance options, Shepard is not attracted to the same sex. It's clear Shepard is not gay. ME2 already had big enough plot holes for me I don't need or want anymore. DA:O had gay romance options and I didn't think it silly because it's the 1st one, if people want to play as gay characters fine, but for the central plot character to all of a sudden come out with it. No, makes no sense.

For gay romance options to suddenly pop up out of no where completely destroys Shepard's character and his previous relationships. Some people are straight, gay or bi, I don't care what people choose it's their decision. if your straight, gay or bi that needs to be addressed in the beginning not the last game. Shepard can save the galaxy but can't express his different sexual views until the 3rd installment? Be hard to believe he'd out right cheat on his previous LI for the same sex. Shepard isn't married, Shepard can do whatever he/she wants and has nothing to hide, why this change now it would make 0 sense.

I do not support any change that conflicts with the original story line rendering it mute.

I've chosen to quote this post because it was your first, but you can take this as a reply to all of your subsequent posts, if that's okay.

"Shepard is not gay".

In reply to this I will focus on a male Shepard, for 2 reasons: 1, my canon Shepard is male; 2, femShep can identify as a lesbian and pursue a relationship appropriate to that orientation with Liara in the game. The latter is something that has been discussed already, and I can add nothing more to that debate other than reiterate that femShep has to find Liara's female body and characteristic attractive otherwise she wouldn't be attracted to her. Whether this makes that particular femShep bisexual, lesbian or pansexual is down to the individual player to determine.

On to my reply.

I take offense. My Shepard is gay. He has been gay all his life. He was gay during the events of ME1, he was gay when Project Lazarus resurrected him, and he will still be gay when the reapers invade in ME3. He is a gay man. He knows his sexuality, he is proud of it, it is, quite simply, a part of who he is.

During the events of ME1 and ME2, there were no crew members aboard the SR-1 or SR-2 who were made available by the developers for Shepard to hit on. So he didn't hit on anyone. He remained alone. He didn't suddenly think, "Hey, maybe I'm straight after all, after all these years!", just because of the presence of a handful of LIs who were available as straight romance options. He was still gay.

You appear, throughout your posts, to be confusing the roles of Shepard and the crew. Shepard has a handful of pre-defined traits that are integral to the story. Like being a marine. Or being badass. His sexual orientation is not one of those pre-defined traits. There is nothing in the game that suggests Shepard has an orientation of one thing or another. There is no grand statement about which way he swings that is forced upon me by the game. The presence or absence of gay, straight or bisexual crew members and LIs does not affect Shepard's own orientation. Just as if I work in an office with all straight people, that does not make me straight as well. And if a straight person happens to go to a gay club with some friends, that does not make them gay. Who you are attracted to, romantically and/or sexually, is what 'makes' you one orientation or another. Not the presence or absence of gay, straight or bisexual people around you.

"For gay romance options to suddenly pop up out of no where completely
destroys Shepard's character and his previous relationships."

No it doesn't. My Shepard has always been gay. It would merely mean now there was someone aboard the ship he could finally show an interest in, if, indeed, he was attracted to them as a person as well.. Your Shepard wouldn't have to. It wouldn't invalidate your Shepard's previous relationships. You might well have just said, "To introduce any new LIs in ME2 or ME3 completely destroys Shepard's character and his previous relationships." I mean, Shepard could have been in love with a human in ME1, right? So the introduction of a quarian romance in ME2 surely would have 'destroyed' Shepard's character, since he wasn't attracted to those aliens in ME1. Oh, but maybe he was, and the game just didn't give us the option to pursue one. Do you see the parallel?

You, the player, set the boundary about who and what your Shepard finds attractive. The game writing itself is left open enough that you have that freedom. To reiterate: the presence of the option for Shepard to initiate a romance with a character of a particular orientation does not mean that he has to take that option (for it is an 'option', after all), nor does the mere presence of those characters say anything about Shepard's orientation. And, ultimately, it is a little offensive to be told that my Shepard does not or cannot exist. He does exist. He's sat on my hard-drive right now, silently existing, waiting for ME3. And he's gay.

This, all of this right here. 100% agreed with, signed on the dotted line. It could not be said better, if only people would understand its contents.

[Cootie]

Creator001 wrote...

Ok onward we march! Like knights in shining armor. Regarding Interpretations. I am as likely to defend them, as I am to abandon them.Someone once said:There are no facts only interpretations.And if it is so, then I am free to wonder in search of truth.
I may have come down as storm filled with rage, I apologize for that. In my opinion, we are merely observing one truth from two different angles, and therefore we come to different conclusions. Truth is – we both want something. We want this game to be better.

Your position is better, as you stand on holy ground of acceptance.  And I am standing on denial.You want to divide an apple, while I want to conquer it all for myself. My position may seem selfish and unjust.  But it all depends on how you will look at it. I simply defend OUR ideals when you try to pierce them.  I am the shield, and you are the sword.

'Allowing bisexual to take major part in ME3 - means stepping down, giving up somethingWhat we have here is nothing major.  Simple and understandable conflict of interests. Nothing more, nothing less. 

Sex is close to religion. You chose to Believe that : 2/1 =2  And I believe  that :  2*1 = 2  Our answers are the same, but our Interpretations are different. 

I could say:  It is out of our hands! There is nothing we could really do, but that is untrue. Developers control every aspect of upcoming game. But then again nothing is written in stone. They may decide to allow or deny bisexual relations in last moment. And there is slight chance that our discussion may influence their decision. I could say that this discussion is pointless, but you would easily prove me wrong. 212 pages speak for themselves.

Cage: I have to tell the truth. Those words hit me hard. And that. I won’t let go so easily.
Yes, I am prepared to cage art. I am prepared to restrict, polish and cut art, to turn rocks in to sparkling diamonds. Rules and obstacles are there for reason. Without restrictions, moral and ethical laws we are nothing more them primitive animals. Rules make us stronger. .
AND Freedom is a double edge sword, it strikes both ways. Balance must be maintained!!!  We both have freedom. You and I.  What is freedom? It is the ability to make our choices, and embrace the consequences. I chose to uphold rules, and reach for MY perfection, my truth. And you… you chose to abandon rules and follow your path. I can probably write pages of critic and come up with a hand full of good reasons why bisexual relations should not be allowed, like how will it damage the game and characters, how it will affect gaming experience, and so on, and so on. 

But will it change anything? In the end  after all that philosophical  garbage we must find a suitable compromise for both parties, otherwise we are hitting brick wall. 

What confuses me, however, is your choice of reasoning. I do not want to divide an apple, and somehow steal a part of your game from you. I want a whole other apple, all to myself, and you get to keep yours.
You can still pursue a heterosexual relationship in your game. If they'd implement DA2's conversational system, the only difference you would notice would be a heart-y-option popping up once in a while. It is a minor, cosmetic change, if anything.

Rules make us stronger? Nay, what you are defending are not rules, they be fightin' words of dated traditions. Either way, I did not feel stronger as Mass Effect chose to keep male homosexual romance options from me.
Did Bioware think I would come crawling to their social network, complaining that I escaped from my playthrough emotionally scarred?
That's offensive to a heterosexual such as myself.

So no, rules do not make us stronger in this case. Old, dated traditions hold us back from reaching that potential. You are not polishing a piece of limp rock into a shining diamond, you are keeping it from being polished where we want to add some fabulous shine.
You are still caging art.

If you are looking for compromises, there are LOADS of them cluttering the front page. I suggest that you figure out a compromise, rather than us, for you know yourself better than we do, and if we keep making up suggestions, you can just sit there in no-fun-ville and say No.
Because frankly, that is not good enough.

[M8DMAN]

God this thread has gone down the toilet. I'm amazed that it hasn't been locked already.

[Cootie]

M8DMAN wrote...

God this thread has gone down the toilet. I'm amazed that it hasn't been locked already.

Please be more constructive.
How has it "gone down the toilet"? Where would you want it to be, instead? Is there anything you would see discussed in the thread besides what's currently going on?

Or do you just want to see us on the front page? 

[android654]

So much animosity, I'm surprised you haven't started killing one another yet.

[ElitePinecone]

android654 wrote...

So much animosity, I'm surprised you haven't started killing one another yet.

We try to keep the debate civil. Mostly it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

The frontpage has a heap of possible solutions or compromises, if new posters bothered to read it. 

[Jademoon121]

I just got the new Gameinformer about ME3 and it mentions that Shepherd will get a new male partner(spoiler? It was from a magazine..) on his team, a James Sanders. An alliance soldier that you meet early on.
It's probably not smart to jump to conclusions, but maybe this guy is the answer for our prayers?

Edit for spelling

Modifié par Jademoon121, 16 avril 2011 - 01:50 .

[catabuca]

Yeah, it's interesting news Jademoon. We'll have to wait and see I guess. None of the new male LIs in ME2 were bisexual, after all, so it's always best to try not to jump to conclusions and have your still-beating heart ripped from your chest, ground into tiny pieces, and thrown into a fiery pit of despair ...

... *coughs*

What? So I'm pessimistic. Just protecting my poor little still-beating heart is all.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

I have a question for those who want LIs to be bisexual or gay (or both if it's possible) in ME3.

What do you think of those who disagree (like me)?

[lolwut666]

It would be nice if you could switch bi-curiosity on/off on the options menu.

I think the biggest problem I'd have with all the gay thang is if one of the dudes made a pass at me when all I want is to talk.

[JeffZero]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I have a question for those who want LIs to be bisexual or gay (or both if it's possible) in ME3.

What do you think of those who disagree (like me)?

What Nyoka said.

[Cootie]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I have a question for those who want LIs to be bisexual or gay (or both if it's possible) in ME3.

What do you think of those who disagree (like me)?

It is not that simple. Most people do not master black-and-white bigotry.
There is the matter of WHY you disagree, HOW you disagree and what you base your opinions on and how you present them.

And even if that's all there, fine and dandy, I like to think that we do not condemn you based on your opinions. We merely disagree. These things happen, and it's all about opinions. And if you sense that people are hostile, keep in mind that it might have to do with how you present yourself, how you're handling the issue that's close to a lot of people's hearts. With all that said, I do not have to like everyone in this thread who agrees with me, nor do I have to like everyone who opposes these ideas.

I just think the important part lies in understanding every one.

Empathy 101.

Edit: My phrasing was a bit hostile at one point. Remedied. o.o

Modifié par Cootie, 16 avril 2011 - 03:13 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

For some reason, I can't quote people's posts.

@Nyoka Okay, I have this question as well (a bit similar to that one, but I think it's more specific).

Do you (not just you, anybody) think that whoever disagrees with you is a homophobe?

I'm asking this because it seems like that's what happened on my thread. I'm not saying that the disagreeing side isn't (because some are, but I'm not), but I also want to see if the agreeing side is labeling those who disagree as merely "homophobic."

[CroGamer002]

Gay romance in Mass Effect?
Sure, why not?


But only if they don't turn it into Anders Effect!

[lolwut666]

[quote]lolwut666 wrote...

It would be nice if you could switch bi-curiosity on/off on the options menu.

I think the biggest problem I'd have with all the gay thang is if one of the dudes made a pass at me when all I want is to talk.[/quote]
Would you have a problem with this? All you'd have to do is pick the option "highly inappropiate". Easy enough, isn't it?

[/quote]

Just like you have the right to want gayness on your game, I have the right to not want gayness on my game. With the on/off option, it's a win for both.

I swear, people these days are ridiculous. First we had to accept gays, then respect gays... Sooner or later, being gay will be a requirement.

If I see gay people on the street, I have no problem with them, but I think it's my right not to want gayness on a piece of media that I'll be playing during my private time.

[DaeJi]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I have a question for those who want LIs to be bisexual or gay (or both if it's possible) in ME3.

What do you think of those who disagree (like me)?

Love interest do not affect your game unless you pursue them. If you disagree because you yourself do not want to deal with homosexual attraction, then it should not be a problem since, again, you may choose to ignore it.