9243 réponses à ce sujet

[MrGone]

You, there main thing that bugged me about the bisexuality of the characters in DA2 was that it made the characters weaker. Not because they were gay, but because they were so malleable that their sexuality, a core part of who they would be as people, didn't matter to them, but only to the player.

The only character that this was justified with was Isabella, they talked about her sleeping with everyone all the time in that game. But for everyone else, it just seemed odd.

In ME, as far as the general populace knows (assuming they don't know of the unrecorded lines) among NPCs, everyone but Liara is pretty straight (maybe Tali as well, even playing a FemShep she seemed to have a crush on me). If Kaiden or Ashley were to suddenly be a bisexual option, when he wasn't before, that would seem really forced to me.

I'm all for a gay option. Totally go for it. But please do it with new characters, and if you do, make them entirely gay and/or definitely bisexual. That makes their sexual identity a part of their character identity, and would be more natural from a character based perspective.

[jlb524]

MrGone wrote...

You, there main thing that bugged me about the bisexuality of the characters in DA2 was that it made the characters weaker. Not because they were gay, but because they were so malleable that their sexuality, a core part of who they would be as people, didn't matter to them, but only to the player.

The only character that this was justified with was Isabella, they talked about her sleeping with everyone all the time in that game. But for everyone else, it just seemed odd.

Oooh, another one of these.  Could you explain in detail (point by point with examples and all of that) why the characters in DA2 were 'weaker' because of this?   Why does every non-heterosexual character need to justify attraction to same-sex at some point for their sexuality to be realistic or believable?  Or, do the heterosexual characters need to do it as well? 

MrGone wrote...
In ME, as far as the general populace knows (assuming they don't know of the unrecorded lines) among NPCs, everyone but Liara is pretty straight (maybe Tali as well, even playing a FemShep she seemed to have a crush on me). If Kaiden or Ashley were to suddenly be a bisexual option, when he wasn't before, that would seem really forced to me.

I'm all for a gay option. Totally go for it. But please do it with new characters, and if you do, make them entirely gay and/or definitely bisexual. That makes their sexual identity a part of their character identity, and would be more natural from a character based perspective.

I think you may be forgetting that even a lot of BW's straight LIs had never given any indication of their sexuality beyond eventually becoming attracted to the player character.  I don't recall Ashley ever mentioning anything at least.

Modifié par jlb524, 17 avril 2011 - 02:33 .

[M8DMAN]

MrGone wrote...

You, there main thing that bugged me about the bisexuality of the characters in DA2 was that it made the characters weaker. Not because they were gay, but because they were so malleable that their sexuality, a core part of who they would be as people, didn't matter to them, but only to the player.

The only character that this was justified with was Isabella, they talked about her sleeping with everyone all the time in that game. But for everyone else, it just seemed odd.

In ME, as far as the general populace knows (assuming they don't know of the unrecorded lines) among NPCs, everyone but Liara is pretty straight (maybe Tali as well, even playing a FemShep she seemed to have a crush on me). If Kaiden or Ashley were to suddenly be a bisexual option, when he wasn't before, that would seem really forced to me.

I'm all for a gay option. Totally go for it. But please do it with new characters, and if you do, make them entirely gay and/or definitely bisexual. That makes their sexual identity a part of their character identity, and would be more natural from a character based perspective.

I agree turning established characters Gay/Bi for no reason is stupid. Take Anders in DA2 for Example, when he suddenly turned Bisexual it felt so unnatural and his Character suffered for it. He went from being a Snarky Ladie's man to a Moody Che Guevara wannabe.

Now on the other hand Fenris and Isabella's Bisexuality felt more natural because those characters were wrote to be Bi from the start. 

Modifié par M8DMAN, 17 avril 2011 - 02:58 .

[Ryzaki]

...No. Anders turned into a Moody Che Guevara wannabe because he's going through some s*** and his writer was changed. Let's see how much the same you stay with a corrupted spirit of Justice preaching in your head for 7 years, being on the run from Wardens and Templars alike, dealing with your friend/lover being turned into a living doll and having to join a revolutionary movement.

It had jack squat to do with his sexuality.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 avril 2011 - 02:58 .

[didymos1120]

M8DMAN wrote...
I agree turning established characters Gay/Bi for no reason is stupid. Take Anders in DA2 for Example, when he suddenly turned Bisexual it ruined his character traits. He went from being a Snarky Ladie's man to a Moody Che Guevara wannabe.
 

Uh, yeah, him being bisexual has nothing to do with him being a revolutionary. 

[ADLegend21]

so someone discovering bi or gay feelings makes them weaker? oh now that's just silly.

[M8DMAN]

didymos1120 wrote...

M8DMAN wrote...
I agree turning established characters Gay/Bi for no reason is stupid. Take Anders in DA2 for Example, when he suddenly turned Bisexual it ruined his character traits. He went from being a Snarky Ladie's man to a Moody Che Guevara wannabe.
 

Uh, yeah, him being bisexual has nothing to do with him being a revolutionary. 

Yeah but it did make him Moody.

[Ryzaki]

...*headdesks* yes of course being bisexual made him moody. Not the templars, not justice, not the obscenely thin veil.

No none of that is as overpowering as the gender he chose to sleep with.

[Maugrim]

M8DMAN wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

M8DMAN wrote...
I agree turning established characters Gay/Bi for no reason is stupid. Take Anders in DA2 for Example, when he suddenly turned Bisexual it ruined his character traits. He went from being a Snarky Ladie's man to a Moody Che Guevara wannabe.
 

Uh, yeah, him being bisexual has nothing to do with him being a revolutionary. 

Yeah but it did make him Moody.

*facepalm*

Hey is there anyway to make the 'Sten No' picture display automatically when a post like this is quoted?  It would save me a lot of time and trouble....

[M8DMAN]

ADLegend21 wrote...

so someone discovering bi or gay feelings makes them weaker? oh now that's just silly.

No it just makes the whole straight to gay thing weird. You don't just wake up one day and go "hey Im tired of being straight. I'm gonna go gay/Bi now" same thing with Someone who is  Homosexual. They're not gonna suddenly turn straight. 
 
You just don't suddenly change your sexual orientation just because you feel like it. Now in a true Bisexual's case this statement doesn't apply.


My point is that if Bioware wants to add a Gay/Bi character then they need to make one and not use an established character. Hell I would welcome a true Gay character, it would really show how far games have come along.

Modifié par M8DMAN, 17 avril 2011 - 03:19 .

[Cootie]

For people who keep claiming to be supporters of deep, meaningful relationships, I am a tad flabbergasted at how extremely SHALLOW your reasoning is.

[MACharlie1]

M8DMAN wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

so someone discovering bi or gay feelings makes them weaker? oh now that's just silly.

No it just makesThe whole Straight to gay thing weird. You don't just wake up one day and go "hey Im tired of being straight. I'm gonna go gay now" same thing with someone who is gay.

You're not gonna just suddenly change your sexual orientation just because you feel like it. Now in a true Bisexual's case this statement doesn't apply.


My point is that if Bioware wants to add a Gay/Bi character then they need to make one and not use an established character.

Ander's sexuality was always a little ambigous. Remember a certain banter line from DAA where he he was still deciding if he was hitting on Nathaniel? And even without it, unless they specifically say that someone is/isn't straight/gay/bi, it's free game. 

Lets say you bump into a guy outside a bar and you buy him a drink. You become fast friends - he seems to be straight. He talks and walks like a man. He checks out that blonde chick's ass who just walked into the bar. Over the next few months, he mentions that he's found himself attracted to other men and even had a boyfriend once in college. He never gave any indication that he did. How can this be? 

[Creator001]

mrsph wrote...

None of the romances in Dragon Age 2 were particularly sane anyway.

Except for Isabela, maybe.

Can i please sign under ?  

[halokitty]

jlb524 wrote...

Oooh, another one of these. Could you explain in detail (point by point with examples and all of that) why the characters in DA2 were 'weaker' because of this? Why does every non-heterosexual character need to justify attraction to same-sex at some point for their sexuality to be realistic or believable? Or, do the heterosexual characters need to do it as well?

THIS, please. The idea that somehow "Everyone is bi" makes characters weak or breaks the all-important sense of staunch realism in games about dragons, magic, telekinetic powers, and ancient Lovecraftian sentient machines that routinely wipe out all life in the galaxy.

Heterosexual character seem to be exempt from explaining their straight bona fides in order to create a realstic romance, while the prevailing wisdom seems to be that gay or bi romance options should hang the whole of their personality on why they love who they love and the justification of those feelings.

I didn't find the love interests in DA2 weak in the least. There was a great deal of depth to my romances with Merrill (especially on the rivaly track) even if she didn't tell me about why she was attracted to my female Hawke. It likewise doesn't diminish my experience to know there are male Hawkes out there who also romanced her in their games. So my question is; what makes that relationship weaker than, say, FemShep and Thane or Male Warden and Morrigan? What integral core of human emotion is missing or gained from allowing full access to romances by either gender?

I have said before and I will state again- I am 100% in favor of Hawke-Sexual or Shepard-Sexual character. In these games we are playing the hero. Each game is unique and specific to the player and their point of view. That's the whole appeal of Bioware's approach to legacy games and open-ended decisions. Who wants to watch a movie where the galaxy-saving hero bravely battles the Reapers, but gets turned down by virtually everyone he or she flirts with? That's no fun, and it's not very compelling, and if you're a gay gamer (at least our lesbian Shepards have the lovely Liara) that's the reality of Mass Effect 1 and 2.

[didymos1120]

M8DMAN wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Uh, yeah, him being bisexual has nothing to do with him being a revolutionary. 

Yeah but it did make him Moody.

Really? Fascinating. You should write up a paper or something, 'cause I had no idea that bisexuality was the primary cause of moodiness.  That's....revolutionary!

Modifié par didymos1120, 17 avril 2011 - 03:24 .

[Praetor Knight]

Creator001 wrote...

My nature is like water.  It can be cold and solid like Ice, it can be open to new ideas and take everything in like liquid. depends on temperature 

There is some wisdom there. Bruce Lee said be like water

[M8DMAN]

didymos1120 wrote...

M8DMAN wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Uh, yeah, him being bisexual has nothing to do with him being a revolutionary. 

Yeah but it did make him Moody.

Really? Fascinating. You should write up a paper or something, 'cause I had no idea that bisexuality was the primary cause of moodiness.  That's....revolutionary!

[MrGone]

jlb524 wrote...

MrGone wrote...

You, there main thing that bugged me about the bisexuality of the characters in DA2 was that it made the characters weaker. Not because they were gay, but because they were so malleable that their sexuality, a core part of who they would be as people, didn't matter to them, but only to the player.

The only character that this was justified with was Isabella, they talked about her sleeping with everyone all the time in that game. But for everyone else, it just seemed odd.

Oooh, another one of these.  Could you explain in detail (point by point with examples and all of that) why the characters in DA2 were 'weaker' because of this?   Why does every non-heterosexual character need to justify attraction to same-sex at some point for their sexuality to be realistic or believable?  Or, do the heterosexual characters need to do it as well? 

MrGone wrote...
In ME, as far as the general populace knows (assuming they don't know of the unrecorded lines) among NPCs, everyone but Liara is pretty straight (maybe Tali as well, even playing a FemShep she seemed to have a crush on me). If Kaiden or Ashley were to suddenly be a bisexual option, when he wasn't before, that would seem really forced to me.

I'm all for a gay option. Totally go for it. But please do it with new characters, and if you do, make them entirely gay and/or definitely bisexual. That makes their sexual identity a part of their character identity, and would be more natural from a character based perspective.

I think you may be forgetting that even a lot of BW's straight LIs had never given any indication of their sexuality beyond eventually becoming attracted to the player character.  I don't recall Ashley ever mentioning anything at least.

Sure OK, I accept your challenge, little miss/mister defensive pants. No I'm not going to break it down "point by point". That's a trap on your part to get more snide with my response. All you have to do is claim I didn't meet whatever standards you make up, then and there if you find you still disagree, even if I can "prove" my argument. I will give you my personal experience and opinion on ONE character though:

To me Anders is gay, always has been, always will be. Part of this is the subtext in his actual storyline seems to fit with this. He slowly goes from hiding an aspect about himself that he knows the rest of society doesn't hold to, and being partially ashamed of who he has become, to fully embracing it, and even getting kind of preachy about it.

This is a personality growth arc (for lack of a better term) that I've seen amongst many of my gay friends that I've known since high school. They felt awkward about coming out at first, especially to their parents, then came to become prideful in who they were, took it a little to far and got preachy about it, and then finally realized that the preachiness was silly and settled down into adults comfortable with who they were but not getting all up in a huff about every little thing that has to do with "LGBT" rights..

I recognized this arc in who Anders was as a character. Personally, I think that this is intentional on the developers part. Do I know this for a "fact"? No. Only they know that, and as far as I understand it, they aren't commenting on this.

But if I am correct on the subtext of Anders' arc, struggling with a hidden burden as an analog for homosexuality, then it seems highly silly to me that he would EVER hit on my second character, a female. But he did, and it just felt wrong, and emotionally dishonest to Anders.

To make Anders, a character who should be gay 100% of the time straight 50% of the time instead seems counter to his nature as a character. When characters are forced by situations to act counter to their nature, it follows that the integrity of said character is weakened yes?

To put into ME terms, since this is NOT the DA2 board, it would be like, if at the end of Miranda's loyalty mission, you had the option to tell her to shoot the (oh wait right spoilers) [NPC that the mission resolves around], and all of a sudden she became this person who "never" cared about the [NPC Miranda's Loyalty mission revolves around], and even would later make flippant comments about how it was awesome when she killed the [NPC Miranda's Loyalty mission revolves around].

It would weaken the integrity of her character would it not, if such a core part of who she is was so easily decided not by her, but by YOU the player?

A character that doesn't know if they're gay, striaght, or bi is at the very least, indescisive or just subserviant to another's whims. Both traits that all of society connotes with "weaker". Since that's the freaking definition, I don't think I can add any more to this. If you can't see why this is the case for ANY character, then you're letting this issue blind your judgement.

As for justification . . .

It's not that I want a character to outright say at some point, "You know! I am totally into buttsex with other men." or "I remember when I was a young woman who could only think about another girl's vagina" and be super blatant "hit you over the head with a bag of hammers" about this. But if the writers inform us at any point, either subtely OR directly, about the romantic history of a character, then yes it does help us get a fuller picture of who they are, does it not?

Is it necessary? No, for anybody of any orientation, but does it inform? Yes, it does.

Oh and several characters talk about past relationships  and as you said "justify" them as straight. I'll name seven for sure: Kaiden, Garrus, Kasumi, Thane, Mordin, Miranda and Jacob.

Kasumi was in a heavy relationship with a man, Garrus practiced against the flexibility of a female Turian, and Kaiden had a crush on a girl in Biotic Boot camp. Thane was married to a woman and is a widower. Mordin  participated in his fertilization thing that Salraians do. Miranda and Jacob dated each other.

But then there are characters who talk about relationships with both sexes and so yeah, it's fine if they're Bi by me. Isabella did this in DA2, and Jack did in ME2, so for Jack at least if whe was available for same sex relatioonships would be fine.

And yes, there ARE characters that don't talk about it, and so fine, I guess there's some leeway, but again, I think it's a stronger choice if they have pre-determined identities rather than totally malleable ones.

And by the way, I'm all for a character being swayed to new ideas as an option with other things. I like that there are plenty of ways to convince people of stuff in ME1 and or 2.  I liked in ME1 how you could convince either Kaiden or Ashley to reverse their stance on humanity's plac within galactic society. But sexuality's a bit different than a political view. A political view can easily change over the course of a life, a sexual orientation is pretty much there for your entire run on this plane.

Still, integrity of character is EXACTLY why the friendship/rivalry system of DA2 works better than Paragon/Renegade system of Mass effect when it comes to interpersonal relationships. If I tell Grunt to do something he doesn't like, it seems more natural if he actually doesn't like what I'm forcing him to do rather than always accepting my justification of it. If someone always ends up agreeing with my choices, it just seems  . . . unnatural.

So yeah, that's a long read . . . and maybe it doesn't answer your challenge, maybe it does. But I'm done trying to convince folks of an acceptable compromise.

I mean seriously, if they added some definitely gay characters to Mass Effect 3 and kept everything else the same, how does that NOT make every group of players happy?

[Maugrim]

MrGone wrote...

I mean seriously, if they added some definitely gay characters to Mass Effect 3 and kept everything else the same, how does that NOT make every group of players happy?

Not going to address the rest of your post because I have better things to do and there are people better suited to a rebuttal.

David Gaider has already confirmed the chance of having a gay only characters are so small as to be non-existent. It's NOT HAPPENING.  Comprehende senor?  The only reason we get bisexual characters is because they can be added with minimal zots.

**** that I'm not waiting a decade to get my romance in a Bioware game.


*waits for the backpedaling wounded "I meant gay or bisexuals" you are such a gay meanie act*

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 17 avril 2011 - 04:04 .

[Praetor Knight]

jlb524 wrote...

I think you may be forgetting that even a lot of BW's straight LIs had never given any indication of their sexuality beyond eventually becoming attracted to the player character.  I don't recall Ashley ever mentioning anything at least.

Well with Ash, there was this scene:

But I'm not sure how to classify it going paragon, flirty maybe?

And I wonder what a tinfoil miniskirt looks like?

[MrGone]

makenzieshepard wrote...

MrGone wrote...

I mean seriously, if they added some definitely gay characters to Mass Effect 3 and kept everything else the same, how does that NOT make every group of players happy?

Not going to address the rest of your post because I have better things to do and there are people better suited to a rebuttal.

David Gaider has already confirmed the chance of having a gay only characters are so small as to be non-existent. It's NOT HAPPENING.  Comprehende senor?  The only reason we get bisexual characters is because they can be added with minimal zots.

**** that I'm not waiting a decade to get my romance in a Bioware game.


*waits for the backpedaling wounded "I meant gay or bisexuals" you are such a gay meanie act*

No backpedalling. I was unaware that this was stated, and really that's just a damn shame is what that is, and frankly a bit sad. I honestly kind of expected more from Bioware, they seem pretty progressive when it comes to this sort of thing and so yeah, that's retarded that the option won't even be considered.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

This thread seems more heated than when I was last here.....

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Also, I got a question:

I have heard some say that it was hinted that Tali could have been romanceable by Femshep in ME2.

If you believe this, why so and how?

[Maugrim]

MrGone wrote...

No backpedalling. I was unaware that this was stated, and really that's just a damn shame is what that is, and frankly a bit sad. I honestly kind of expected more from Bioware, they seem pretty progressive when it comes to this sort of thing and so yeah, that's retarded that the option won't even be considered.

I'd pull up the quote if I could find it but my summary is correct, if a bit crude.  So even though you wern't being deliberate insulting by suggesting waiting for gay characters you can probably now imagine why my reaction was so strong. 

Of course we'd like gay characters.  I think it's safe to say that most of us want more gay, straight and bi characters.  It would be awesome if some were love interests and some were not.  Even just blink and you'll miss them background characters like possibly that male Human/Turian couple in the Shadow Broker vid files.

The sad thing is that Bioware is the progressive company out there, arguably the most progressive.  Certainly no one else is doing full featured romance in a RPG setting where you have choices about the story line.  Luckily now it's not so much "OMG if we have gay sexorz no one will buy it" as much as "If we add in gay only sexorz it won't be worth the money."  A tiny improvement at least.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 17 avril 2011 - 04:20 .