9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Deejtage]

makenzieshepard wrote...

MrGone wrote...

I mean seriously, if they added some definitely gay characters to Mass Effect 3 and kept everything else the same, how does that NOT make every group of players happy?

David Gaider has already confirmed the chance of having a gay only characters are so small as to be non-existent. It's NOT HAPPENING.  Comprehende senor?  The only reason we get bisexual characters is because they can be added with minimal zots.

Link?

[Maugrim]

Deejtage wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

MrGone wrote...

I mean seriously, if they added some definitely gay characters to Mass Effect 3 and kept everything else the same, how does that NOT make every group of players happy?

David Gaider has already confirmed the chance of having a gay only characters are so small as to be non-existent. It's NOT HAPPENING.  Comprehende senor?  The only reason we get bisexual characters is because they can be added with minimal zots.

Link?

David Gaider wrote...

I'm glad that there were a great many people who expressed that they did value having these options, because I'm afraid that if one's stance is "all or nothing" on something like this the answer nine times out of ten is thus "nothing".

Main source. 3rd response.  Plus add in e-stalking the poor sod on the forums on this issue and it's crystal clear that it's not happening anytime soon bar a humongous acceptance swing in the world at large

Twas not easy to find, you better appreciate it!   Also the part of my post that you edited out is clearly less hyperbolic and indicates that it's not impossible, just unlikely to be anytime soon.  If you want to look at more try using this link and then add &lf=8 to the end of any thread URL to see only dev replies.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 17 avril 2011 - 04:45 .

[Creator001]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I think you may be forgetting that even a lot of BW's straight LIs had never given any indication of their sexuality beyond eventually becoming attracted to the player character.  I don't recall Ashley ever mentioning anything at least.

Well with Ash, there was this scene:

But I'm not sure how to classify it going paragon, flirty maybe?

And I wonder what a tinfoil miniskirt looks like?

Damn  that made me want to play through  ME again.

Ash is uniq.
I loved her.
She promised to kiss Garrus for me.
 

[Ryzaki]

I'm only going to answer the Anders related bits for now. *puts on Anders fangirl hat* 

DA2 SPOILERS AHEAD

MrGone wrote...
Sure OK, I accept your challenge, little miss/mister defensive pants. No I'm not going to break it down "point by point". That's a trap on your part to get more snide with my response. All you have to do is claim I didn't meet whatever standards you make up, then and there if you find you still disagree, even if I can "prove" my argument. I will give you my personal experience and opinion on ONE character though:

To me Anders is gay, always has been, always will be. Part of this is the subtext in his actual storyline seems to fit with this. He slowly goes from hiding an aspect about himself that he knows the rest of society doesn't hold to, and being partially ashamed of who he has become, to fully embracing it, and even getting kind of preachy about it.

This is a personality growth arc (for lack of a better term) that I've seen amongst many of my gay friends that I've known since high school. They felt awkward about coming out at first, especially to their parents, then came to become prideful in who they were, took it a little to far and got preachy about it, and then finally realized that the preachiness was silly and settled down into adults comfortable with who they were but not getting all up in a huff about every little thing that has to do with "LGBT" rights..

And none of that makes Anders gay. Not in the least bit. Anders was written as bisexual. He has had both female and male lovers and will fall in love and sleep with a female or male Hawke. That is how he is written. Your subtext isn't changing that. Yes I realize it seems odd I'm saying this given how absolutely fond I am of saying MShepxKaidan subtext! However I don't claim that Kaidan's romance with Female Shepard is somehow lessened and doesn't make sense. Nothing about Anders' characterization contradicts his bisexuality. Absolutely nothing. Nothing about his reationship with Female Hawke rings false compared to his romance with Male Hawke. 

The personality growth arc you're using an example of isn't fitting Anders in the least bit. In truth his growth isn't a growth as much of being a horrible mish mash of his and Justice's worst attributes. He goes from being pro-circle and Justice goes from being very righteous, to wanting it gone no matter what the consequences (and justice goes from noble to even harsher than he normally was and *completely* unwilling to listen to reason and compromise). He changes to be sure but it's about him being poisoned and warped by the demon that he turned his friend into. The demon that was a result of his rage and hatred. He isn't simply championing for a cause. He is obsessed and doing far more harm than good. This is highlighted in Dissent where he attacks one of those that he claims to be championing for. Heck he can potentially kill the mage girl if you do not stop him. Why? Because she points out Justice's corruption and he (Justice) can't bare the thought of being exposed for what he really is. Which is Vengeance. A demon. Anders is starting a war for freedom, a freedom that he doesn't seem to realize not every mage wants. He does not relax (on the friendship path) and he doesn't "chill" he either becomes a complete morph with his obsession (and the demon he made his friend) or he is utterly torn apart by his actions once he realizes the consequences of them and begs for death. Neither ending is particularly charming or ends with a mentally well adjusted person. Unless you think Justice imposing his will on Anders (and the both of them imposing their will on all mages) adjusted

Then to make it even more disgusting (on the path he is merged) he expects to be matryed for it and not see the true horror and dispair his actions have wrought. He expects to be lauded as a symbol for the mages to rally around as the one who helped them gain their freedom instead of the instigator for a long and most likely bloody war. Instead he is gleeful at the war he started that many did not want. And those many *include* the mages. He's so obsessed with his "freedom!" mantra that he doesn't realize that he's doing the cause he claims to be fighting for far more harm than good.

When you do spare him he is still gleeful at the thought of "freeing mages." still woefully ignorant of the fact that all mages didn't want to be freed. And that that freedom is just as much of a danger as them being enslaved. He has no gameplan other than blow up Chantry and fight. For what? Freedom. Well you're free and everyone hates you...now what? Uh...I dunno! 

What about all the bloodmages and dangerous mages running loose now?

Who cares! They should all be free and we'll police ourselves!

I love to see how *that's* gonna happen when the average circle mage doesn't know how to take care of themselves. Much less other people. 

Great game plan Anders.  Let's release a bunch of dangerous people, with no resources, no skills and no longterm plan other than "freedom" into the world and have them fight against everyone else. 

And that's not even including the mages who will turn into abominations when they're cornered and endanger everyone around themselves. 

Awakening Anders knew this was sheer idiocy. DA2 Anders doesn't care. 

Awakening Justice would've been  disgusted at the murder of innocent civilians who didn't play a part in the abuse of mages. DA2 Justice doesn't care. 

He's a complete idiot in regards to his "big plan." A child that lashes out because they see no other way. He doesn't think of just how his little light show will influence people's perceptions of mages. He has a very childish Us vs Them mentality on the issue not caring about those people who aren't mages that he hurts to get his way. During Sebastian's quest he is only concerned with the mages not even caring about the collateral damage he causes. It is an obsession. There is nothing healthy about it nor is it something that empowers him. In fact the only thing he focuses on is the mage plight so much so that he can't even crack a smile at a joke a close friend gives him. 

He isn't becoming sane. He is becoming more and more inhumane and unwilling to listen to reason as time goes on. He goes from absolutely horrifed at bloodmagic being used to accepting it to even having bloodmages on his side when he comes to figh you! (If you side with the templars and release him). Many of his previous principles are shattered. 

The thing with Anders is that he is not just one person anymore. 

It is him and Justice. Both their personalities should be taken in account with Anders' actions because they are so tightly intertwined and they influence one another heavily. 

I'm just not seeing the gay rights comparison. I mean I see a little of it but it really doesn't fit. 

I recognized this arc in who Anders was as a character. Personally, I think that this is intentional on the developers part. Do I know this for a "fact"? No. Only they know that, and as far as I understand it, they aren't commenting on this. 

But if I am correct on the subtext of Anders' arc, struggling with a hidden burden as an analog for homosexuality, then it seems highly silly to me that he would EVER hit on my second character, a female. But he did, and it just felt wrong, and emotionally dishonest to Anders.

To make Anders, a character who should be gay 100% of the time straight 50% of the time instead seems counter to his nature as a character. When characters are forced by situations to act counter to their nature, it follows that the integrity of said character is weakened yes?  

No. Anders' intergrity isn't lowered somehow by him being romanceable by females. How does that change his views on the mages? How does that stop him from still being corrupted? His issues in truth have nothing to do with his sexuality (except fo the incident with Karl and again that can easily be similar with a close friend.) Nothing absolutely nothing requires he be gay, straight or bisexual. 

His struggle with Justice wasn't about fitting in or hiding his true nature. It was about a sad tale of two beings, two very close friends, corrupting each other and morphing each other to bring the absolute *worst* out of themselves. Justice had already began on the road to becoming a demon in Awakening. Anders' anger and rage were already there in awakening. When the two merged Justice's tunnel vision (with his dislike of injustice) and desire to remain in the mortal realm (but even in Awakening he was sensitive to being called a demon)and Anders' rage and hatred for the Templars made them into Vengeance. A being with no compassion and mercy. Anders is struggling against that. But it was not his true nature. Never. It is a corruption of both his and Justice's true nature and a sign of how dangerous even the most innocent of intentions are. 

Like Izzy said. Justice is an ideal. It makes sense in a world of ideals but not in the real world. When it came in contract with the real world it began to corrupt and change. Merging with Anders only made that corruption more paramount. 

Anders had to kill people to gain his "Justice." then later others will want Justice forthat and again and again where will it end? When will justice have run it's course? It never will. That's the problem with it. 

His Justice will cause a neverending war. A war that everyone but *he* will have to pay for. 

And in the end the worst part is it isn't Justice at all. It's Vengeance. Vengeance that people will have to pay even though they had nothing to do with it. 

To put into ME terms, since this is NOT the DA2 board, it would be like, if at the end of Miranda's loyalty mission, you had the option to tell her to shoot the (oh wait right spoilers) [NPC that the mission resolves around], and all of a sudden she became this person who "never" cared about the [NPC Miranda's Loyalty mission revolves around], and even would later make flippant comments about how it was awesome when she killed the [NPC Miranda's Loyalty mission revolves around].

Actually it's not like that example. Anders' personality doesn't change because he's romancing Male or Female Hawke. His motivations change slightly (and I understand why the devs did that) but himself? He is no different. He is stll the same broken man no matter Hawke's gender. 

Anders will always care about Karl. No matter what Hawke's gender. Anders will always kill Karl, no matter Hawke's gender. The comparison holds no water. Just because in one scenario he admits to Karl being his lover and in the other he doesn't say it doesn't mean anything other than Anders for whatever reason choosing not to reveal certain information. 

Unless you care to share how you feel his relationship with a female Hawke is so false to his character. Anders who is clingy and jealous and desperately clings to any happiness he can have. Anders who is a liar and a hypocrite and emotionally manipulative and will do so if he thinks it'll help him. Anders who wanted a pretty girl and the right to shoot lightening at fools and had a female elven lover. 

It would weaken the integrity of her character would it not, if such a core part of who she is was so easily decided not by her, but by YOU the player?

Because we're not changing his personality. Nothing about Anders has changed. Absolutey nothing. His willingness to sleep with male or female Hawke makes no difference. It doesn't influence him blowing up the chantry, it doesn't influence what he templars did to him, it doesn't influence what he's seen it doesn't influence how he acts towards anyone but Hawke (he gives those LIs jealously looks regardless of Hawke's gender).  

A character that doesn't know if they're gay, striaght, or bi is at the very least, indescisive or just subserviant to another's whims. Both traits that all of society connotes with "weaker". Since that's the freaking definition, I don't think I can add any more to this. If you can't see why this is the case for ANY character, then you're letting this issue blind your judgement.

The character knows their sexuality. Them choosing not to reveal it to the player isn't indecisive, or subserviant in th least. Heck if you want to be honest most of the characters in ME are far more subserviant than Anders was considering no matter what you do you can't force him not to blow up the Chantry and on a certain path you absolutley most kill him if you side with the templars (the side that lets him become fully merged with his corruption). And while he seems at peace he's no longer Anders to me. He's now the type of person who has no care about the innocent lives that'll be lost for his war. He fights for an ideal instead of for people.He loses a vast amount of his humanity. Heck just listen to him.Meanwhile you can stop Miranda from killing ...whatever that guy was, decide is she talks to her sister, decide if she even *helps* her sister before the SM and so on. 

Edit: FYI Anders has slept with Isabela. The two of them have a banter about it. 

So I don't see how someone is 100% gay when they openly reminice about a pleasant sexual encounter with a female. (Even Hawke begs them to stop talking.) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 avril 2011 - 06:36 .

[Creator001]

makenzieshepard wrote...
The sad thing is that Bioware is the progressive company out there, arguably the most progressive.  Certainly no one else is doing full featured romance in a RPG setting where you have choices about the story line.  Luckily now it's not so much "OMG if we have gay sexorz no one will buy it" as much as "If we add in gay only sexorz it won't be worth the money."  A tiny improvement at least.

Yeah  Some improvemet it is... 

Just the oposite...

Next thing we`ll know is, bioware renaiming themselves into Gay-O-Ware.
That would be proper. 

Not related to quote:

I got an exelent idea!! It is as Just as Justice can be:

Why don’t we make as many bisexual characters, as there are bisexual people on this planet…
in direct percentage  proportion to straights?
Is that heavy =? It is... isn’t it? After all that is justice.




I am sure you would love it! Really! It is just. 
So if we get 10 to 12 characters in ME3.. how many you should get ?

  ............................  

Modifié par Creator001, 17 avril 2011 - 05:00 .

[didymos1120]

M8DMAN wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

M8DMAN wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Uh, yeah, him being bisexual has nothing to do with him being a revolutionary. 

Yeah but it did make him Moody.

Really? Fascinating. You should write up a paper or something, 'cause I had no idea that bisexuality was the primary cause of moodiness.  That's....revolutionary!

*snip trollface image*

So was that an admission of trolling, or just you trying the "I know you are but what am I?" tactic?

[didymos1120]

Creator001 wrote...

Next thing we`ll know is, bioware renaiming themselves into Gay-O-Ware.That would be proper. 

Ha!  "Gay-O-Ware".....'cause it's totally "Gay" and stuff, right? What a novel bon mot that is. Why, I have never seen its like on all the vast reaches of the interwebs. Oh, you're a sharp and clever one, you are!

[jlb524]

[quote]MrGone wrote...

Sure OK, I accept your challenge, little miss/mister defensive pants. No I'm not going to break it down "point by point". That's a trap on your part to get more snide with my response. All you have to do is claim I didn't meet whatever standards you make up, then and there if you find you still disagree, even if I can "prove" my argument. I will give you my personal experience and opinion on ONE character though:

[/quote]

So, you're going to offer up some subjective arguments and anecdotal evidence....

[quote]MrGone wrote...
To me Anders is gay, always has been, always will be. Part of this is the subtext in his actual storyline seems to fit with this. He slowly goes from hiding an aspect about himself that he knows the rest of society doesn't hold to, and being partially ashamed of who he has become, to fully embracing it, and even getting kind of preachy about it.

This is a personality growth arc (for lack of a better term) that I've seen amongst many of my gay friends that I've known since high school. They felt awkward about coming out at first, especially to their parents, then came to become prideful in who they were, took it a little to far and got preachy about it, and then finally realized that the preachiness was silly and settled down into adults comfortable with who they were but not getting all up in a huff about every little thing that has to do with "LGBT" rights..

I recognized this arc in who Anders was as a character. Personally, I think that this is intentional on the developers part. Do I know this for a "fact"? No. Only they know that, and as far as I understand it, they aren't commenting on this.

But if I am correct on the subtext of Anders' arc, struggling with a hidden burden as an analog for homosexuality, then it seems highly silly to me that he would EVER hit on my second character, a female. But he did, and it just felt wrong, and emotionally dishonest to Anders.

[/quote]

So, you are basically saying that because of Anders' dealing with his literal inner demon reflects a gay person's struggles when going through the coming out process....Anders should be gay?  Is that a correct summary of this point?  It's an okay to make the analogy but I'm not sure how you can connect the dots and end up with "Anders should be gay" based on that alone.


[quote]MrGone wrote...
To make Anders, a character who should be gay 100% of the time straight 50% of the time instead seems counter to his nature as a character. When characters are forced by situations to act counter to their nature, it follows that the integrity of said character is weakened yes?
[/quote]

Well, not always...depends on the context.  Sometimes characters are forced to act counter to their 'nature' or whatever and that could make for some good storytelling.  You could even say Anders himself is acting counter to his nature due to the presence of Justice within him.  As far as sexuality goes, I see know indication that Anders is acting contrary to his "sexuality nature" given that this nature isn't really defined any time as "only attracted to men" or "only attracted to women".

[quote]MrGone wrote...
To put into ME terms, since this is NOT the DA2 board, it would be like, if at the end of Miranda's loyalty mission, you had the option to tell her to shoot the (oh wait right spoilers) [NPC that the mission resolves around], and all of a sudden she became this person who "never" cared about the [NPC Miranda's Loyalty mission revolves around], and even would later make flippant comments about how it was awesome when she killed the [NPC Miranda's Loyalty mission revolves around].

It would weaken the integrity of her character would it not, if such a core part of who she is was so easily decided not by her, but by YOU the player?

[/quote]

These kind of things seem to happen a lot really...the PC tends to have a lot of influence over party members.

[quote]MrGone wrote...
A character that doesn't know if they're gay, striaght, or bi is at the very least, indescisive or just subserviant to another's whims.
[/quote]

Did you play through any of the DA2 romances?  Did any of them seem confused or indescisive about their sexuality? Did they ever tell Hawke "Hey, I'm straight but for you....I'll make an exception! *wink wink*"?   Did Hawke ever force any of them to change their sexual desires just for him/her?    I don't recall this happening during the ones I did.  The romances progressed in pretty much the same fashion as they always do in a typical BW game.

[quote]MrGone wrote...
Both traits that all of society connotes with "weaker". Since that's the freaking definition, I don't think I can add any more to this. If you can't see why this is the case for ANY character, then you're letting this issue blind your judgement.
[/quote]

Yeah, but those traits you mentioned don't exist (see my above point)...and if they do..show me.


[quote]MrGone wrote...
It's not that I want a character to outright say at some point, "You know! I am totally into buttsex with other men." or "I remember when I was a young woman who could only think about another girl's vagina" and be super blatant "hit you over the head with a bag of hammers" about this. But if the writers inform us at any point, either subtely OR directly, about the romantic history of a character, then yes it does help us get a fuller picture of who they are, does it not?
[/quote]

Possibly...or not.  Probably depends.  Just remember to hold the heterosexual romances to the same standard.  It's too bad Tali never subtly mentioned her romantic history with men...her romance and character could have been so much fuller, am I right?

[quote]MrGone wrote...
Oh and several characters talk about past relationships  and as you said "justify" them as straight. I'll name seven for sure: Kaiden, Garrus, Kasumi, Thane, Mordin, Miranda and Jacob.
[/quote]

But not all of them...so the ones that don't aren't as developed, correct?  Be they straight, gay, or bisexual.  Should the fans of those characters feel a bit slighted?


[quote]MrGone wrote...
But then there are characters who talk about relationships with both sexes and so yeah, it's fine if they're Bi by me. Isabella did this in DA2, and Jack did in ME2, so for Jack at least if whe was available for same sex relatioonships would be fine.
[/quote]

What about Leliana in Origins?...she was supposedly bisexual but never ever mentioned relationships with men to my Female Warden.    How are we to deal with her?

[quote]MrGone wrote...
And yes, there ARE characters that don't talk about it, and so fine, I guess there's some leeway, but again, I think it's a stronger choice if they have pre-determined identities rather than totally malleable ones.
[/quote]

Keep in mind that not every character is as libidinous as someone like Isabela or Zevran and their sexuality just isn't a big part of who they are...I wouldn't expect them to talk about and I think this is okay for their character.  It doesn't cheapen it.  You seem to think every character needs to be out and open with their sexuality even if that doesn't make sense for their character.   Tali is not experienced with romance and is not as libidinous as most...I wouldn't expect her to bring up anything romance/sex related in one of the few brief convos Shepard has with her.  To have her say something about it almost feels forced.

[quote]MrGone wrote...
And by the way, I'm all for a character being swayed to new ideas as an option with other things. I like that there are plenty of ways to convince people of stuff in ME1 and or 2.  I liked in ME1 how you could convince either Kaiden or Ashley to reverse their stance on humanity's plac within galactic society. But sexuality's a bit different than a political view. A political view can easily change over the course of a life, a sexual orientation is pretty much there for your entire run on this plane.
[/quote]

Really?  An individual's sexuality can never change over time?  By the way, are you talking about private or public sexuality (or both?)  You definitely can't mean public, as any homosexual that's come out of the closet has changed their public sexuality at least once.  It's tough to discuss another's private sexuality, as you don't know what's going on in their head.   If Kaidan is now into men in ME3 perhaps he's simply come out of the closet as a bisexual?  You wouldn't have known what his private desires were in ME1...


[quote]MrGone wrote...
Still, integrity of character is EXACTLY why the friendship/rivalry system of DA2 works better than Paragon/Renegade system of Mass effect when it comes to interpersonal relationships. If I tell Grunt to do something he doesn't like, it seems more natural if he actually doesn't like what I'm forcing him to do rather than always accepting my justification of it. If someone always ends up agreeing with my choices, it just seems  . . . unnatural.
[/quote]

As I asked above...how is Hawke forcing any of these bisexual LIs into an unwanted romance?  I just played through Merrill's love scene (again)...she totally throws herself all over Hawke quite willingly.    I didn't notice any resistance to the romance....

[quote]MrGone wrote...
So yeah, that's a long read . . . and maybe it doesn't answer your challenge, maybe it does. But I'm done trying to convince folks of an acceptable compromise.

I mean seriously, if they added some definitely gay characters to Mass Effect 3 and kept everything else the same, how does that NOT make every group of players happy?

[/quote]

They won't do that for one.  Also, I personally would rather see all bisexual characters vs. the 1 gay/1 bi/1 straight thing.  I don't see why this is an improvement.  In this scenario, will the bisexual LI still be the less realized character with the more shallow romance compared to the straight and gay options?    You will probably say, "as long as their bisexuality is justified, then yes."     This would mean that if the other options (the gay/straight) aren't 'justified' as well, they would be lacking...so now everyone needs to jump through a hoop to justify their sexuality before they can romance the PC....but I'm telling you that hasn't always happened and it will not always happen...

I wasn't aware that you suggested a compromise...I was only interested in the reasonings behind the idea that having all bisexual LIs (as shown in DA2) is such a bad bad thing.  To be honest, I'm still not convinced.

Modifié par jlb524, 17 avril 2011 - 05:29 .

[Abramis brama]

If Bioware adds same-sex romance in ME3 I won't buy the game.
Just wanted to say this.

[bluuberg]

If Bioware adds same-sex romance in ME3 I will buy the game.
Just wanted to say this.

And yeah I'm buying it anyway, but the incentive of doing the right thing never hurt anyone right?

Modifié par blue.o7, 17 avril 2011 - 05:51 .

[didymos1120]

Abramis brama wrote...

If Bioware adds same-sex romance in ME3 I won't buy the game.
Just wanted to say this.

Uh, you do realize both ME1 and ME2 included same-sex content, right? 

ME1: Femshep/Liara romance, Femshep/Consort encounter
ME2: Femshep/Kelly fling, Femshep/Samara "near miss", Femshep/Morinth "deathmance", Morinth/Nef backstory, Femshep/Liara romance continuation in LotSB, Femshep/Shiala flirting,  Mordin/MShep convo when MShep isn't romancing anyone (don't matter if it's there for humor: it's still same-sex content), Jack backstory

In ME2, there's also the Tali/Femshep thing, where the culmination of the friendship track is identical to the beginning of MShep's romance track with her.  It very much comes off like Tali is into Femshep in "that way", and the Lair dossier does nothing to alter that impression, but rather reinforces it.

ETA: So, in conclusion, your course is clear: you must now travel back in time and prevent your younger self from buying ME1 and ME2.  Godspeed!

Modifié par didymos1120, 17 avril 2011 - 05:56 .

[Wittand25]

Abramis brama wrote...

If Bioware adds same-sex romance in ME3 I won't buy the game.
Just wanted to say this.

And I wont buy it without (not for that reason alone, but it is the straw that brakes the camel´s back)

So either way they loose a customer.

[Maugrim]

Abramis brama wrote...

If Bioware adds same-sex romance in ME3 I won't buy the game.
Just wanted to say this.

[technoquarian]

I don't know...I disagree with some of what he said, but overall I thought that Mr. Gone made some good points and worded his opinions well.

MrGone wrote...
Oh and several characters talk about past relationships and as you said "justify" them as straight. I'll name seven for sure: Kaiden, Garrus, Kasumi, Thane, Mordin, Miranda and Jacob.

I do have a question for you: While the relationships you mentioned are definitely of the heterosexual variety (except possibly Mordin's, since he seems to be asexual in the "preference=none" way) what if these characters are bisexual and only mentioned past relationships with members of the opposite sex? For example, someone could have sexual experiences only with members of the opposite sex, but, being bi, also date someone of the same sex down the line if the right person came along, yes?
ETA...

Abramis brama wrote...

If Bioware adds same-sex romance in ME3 I won't buy the game. 
Just wanted to say this.

Awesome!  Toodles [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Modifié par technoquarian, 17 avril 2011 - 05:59 .

[technoquarian]

Modifié par technoquarian, 17 avril 2011 - 05:59 .

[Maugrim]

didymos1120 wrote...

In ME2, there's also the Tali/Femshep thing, where the culmination of the friendship track is identical to the beginning of MShep's romance track with her.  It very much comes off like Tali is into Femshep in "that way", and the Lair dossier does nothing to alter that impression, but rather reinforces it.

Some part of me hopes that this was done deliberately so that Femsheps would get an extra little scene in a Tali romance.  I know it is a foolish hope but at the same time I can not hold it back...

[catabuca]

halokitty wrote...


THIS, please. The idea that somehow "Everyone is bi" makes characters weak or breaks the all-important sense of staunch realism in games about dragons, magic, telekinetic powers, and ancient Lovecraftian sentient machines that routinely wipe out all life in the galaxy.

Heterosexual character seem to be exempt from explaining their straight bona fides in order to create a realstic romance, while the prevailing wisdom seems to be that gay or bi romance options should hang the whole of their personality on why they love who they love and the justification of those feelings.

I didn't find the love interests in DA2 weak in the least. There was a great deal of depth to my romances with Merrill (especially on the rivaly track) even if she didn't tell me about why she was attracted to my female Hawke. It likewise doesn't diminish my experience to know there are male Hawkes out there who also romanced her in their games. So my question is; what makes that relationship weaker than, say, FemShep and Thane or Male Warden and Morrigan? What integral core of human emotion is missing or gained from allowing full access to romances by either gender?

I have said before and I will state again- I am 100% in favor of Hawke-Sexual or Shepard-Sexual character. In these games we are playing the hero. Each game is unique and specific to the player and their point of view. That's the whole appeal of Bioware's approach to legacy games and open-ended decisions. Who wants to watch a movie where the galaxy-saving hero bravely battles the Reapers, but gets turned down by virtually everyone he or she flirts with? That's no fun, and it's not very compelling, and if you're a gay gamer (at least our lesbian Shepards have the lovely Liara) that's the reality of Mass Effect 1 and 2.

Lazily quoting this to say I agree wholeheartedly.

The 'but they are shallow' debate makes absolutely no sense to me. The romances would have played out in the same way whether they were available for both gendered Hawkes or only one. The direction and substance of the romances is somewhat independent of who can access that material, and more dependent on the story the devs want to tell. The only reason that I can see for some thinking it makes them shallow is that they don't like the idea of sharing, and are so caught up in not being able to put out of their minds that in another house, in another country, in another game, someone might be having a relationship with that character as the opposite gender. How, exactly, does that make the content you experience on your screen 'shallow'? It alters it not one jot.

[jlb524]

catabuca wrote...
The only reason that I can see for some thinking it makes them shallow is that they don't like the idea of sharing, and are so caught up in not being able to put out of their minds that in another house, in another country, in another game, someone might be having a relationship with that character as the opposite gender. How, exactly, does that make the content you experience on your screen 'shallow'? It alters it not one jot.

I've always suspected this as the real reason.   The discomfort/dissapointment with these bisexual romances is over the idea of having to share with the opposite gender and not the supposed shallowness of them.  I suppose they feel more special when they are just "yours".

Though, I guess it's okay to share with thousands of other fans playing the same gender as you.

[Siansonea]

MrGone wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

MrGone wrote...

You, there main thing that bugged me about the bisexuality of the characters in DA2 was that it made the characters weaker. Not because they were gay, but because they were so malleable that their sexuality, a core part of who they would be as people, didn't matter to them, but only to the player.

The only character that this was justified with was Isabella, they talked about her sleeping with everyone all the time in that game. But for everyone else, it just seemed odd.

Oooh, another one of these.  Could you explain in detail (point by point with examples and all of that) why the characters in DA2 were 'weaker' because of this?   Why does every non-heterosexual character need to justify attraction to same-sex at some point for their sexuality to be realistic or believable?  Or, do the heterosexual characters need to do it as well? 

MrGone wrote...
In ME, as far as the general populace knows (assuming they don't know of the unrecorded lines) among NPCs, everyone but Liara is pretty straight (maybe Tali as well, even playing a FemShep she seemed to have a crush on me). If Kaiden or Ashley were to suddenly be a bisexual option, when he wasn't before, that would seem really forced to me.

I'm all for a gay option. Totally go for it. But please do it with new characters, and if you do, make them entirely gay and/or definitely bisexual. That makes their sexual identity a part of their character identity, and would be more natural from a character based perspective.

I think you may be forgetting that even a lot of BW's straight LIs had never given any indication of their sexuality beyond eventually becoming attracted to the player character.  I don't recall Ashley ever mentioning anything at least.

Sure OK, I accept your challenge, little miss/mister defensive pants. No I'm not going to break it down "point by point". That's a trap on your part to get more snide with my response. All you have to do is claim I didn't meet whatever standards you make up, then and there if you find you still disagree, even if I can "prove" my argument. I will give you my personal experience and opinion on ONE character though:

To me Anders is gay, always has been, always will be. Part of this is the subtext in his actual storyline seems to fit with this. He slowly goes from hiding an aspect about himself that he knows the rest of society doesn't hold to, and being partially ashamed of who he has become, to fully embracing it, and even getting kind of preachy about it.

This is a personality growth arc (for lack of a better term) that I've seen amongst many of my gay friends that I've known since high school. They felt awkward about coming out at first, especially to their parents, then came to become prideful in who they were, took it a little to far and got preachy about it, and then finally realized that the preachiness was silly and settled down into adults comfortable with who they were but not getting all up in a huff about every little thing that has to do with "LGBT" rights..

I recognized this arc in who Anders was as a character. Personally, I think that this is intentional on the developers part. Do I know this for a "fact"? No. Only they know that, and as far as I understand it, they aren't commenting on this.

But if I am correct on the subtext of Anders' arc, struggling with a hidden burden as an analog for homosexuality, then it seems highly silly to me that he would EVER hit on my second character, a female. But he did, and it just felt wrong, and emotionally dishonest to Anders.

To make Anders, a character who should be gay 100% of the time straight 50% of the time instead seems counter to his nature as a character. When characters are forced by situations to act counter to their nature, it follows that the integrity of said character is weakened yes?

To put into ME terms, since this is NOT the DA2 board, it would be like, if at the end of Miranda's loyalty mission, you had the option to tell her to shoot the (oh wait right spoilers) [NPC that the mission resolves around], and all of a sudden she became this person who "never" cared about the [NPC Miranda's Loyalty mission revolves around], and even would later make flippant comments about how it was awesome when she killed the [NPC Miranda's Loyalty mission revolves around].

It would weaken the integrity of her character would it not, if such a core part of who she is was so easily decided not by her, but by YOU the player?

A character that doesn't know if they're gay, striaght, or bi is at the very least, indescisive or just subserviant to another's whims. Both traits that all of society connotes with "weaker". Since that's the freaking definition, I don't think I can add any more to this. If you can't see why this is the case for ANY character, then you're letting this issue blind your judgement.

As for justification . . .

It's not that I want a character to outright say at some point, "You know! I am totally into buttsex with other men." or "I remember when I was a young woman who could only think about another girl's vagina" and be super blatant "hit you over the head with a bag of hammers" about this. But if the writers inform us at any point, either subtely OR directly, about the romantic history of a character, then yes it does help us get a fuller picture of who they are, does it not?

Is it necessary? No, for anybody of any orientation, but does it inform? Yes, it does.

Oh and several characters talk about past relationships  and as you said "justify" them as straight. I'll name seven for sure: Kaiden, Garrus, Kasumi, Thane, Mordin, Miranda and Jacob.

Kasumi was in a heavy relationship with a man, Garrus practiced against the flexibility of a female Turian, and Kaiden had a crush on a girl in Biotic Boot camp. Thane was married to a woman and is a widower. Mordin  participated in his fertilization thing that Salraians do. Miranda and Jacob dated each other.

But then there are characters who talk about relationships with both sexes and so yeah, it's fine if they're Bi by me. Isabella did this in DA2, and Jack did in ME2, so for Jack at least if whe was available for same sex relatioonships would be fine.

And yes, there ARE characters that don't talk about it, and so fine, I guess there's some leeway, but again, I think it's a stronger choice if they have pre-determined identities rather than totally malleable ones.

And by the way, I'm all for a character being swayed to new ideas as an option with other things. I like that there are plenty of ways to convince people of stuff in ME1 and or 2.  I liked in ME1 how you could convince either Kaiden or Ashley to reverse their stance on humanity's plac within galactic society. But sexuality's a bit different than a political view. A political view can easily change over the course of a life, a sexual orientation is pretty much there for your entire run on this plane.

Still, integrity of character is EXACTLY why the friendship/rivalry system of DA2 works better than Paragon/Renegade system of Mass effect when it comes to interpersonal relationships. If I tell Grunt to do something he doesn't like, it seems more natural if he actually doesn't like what I'm forcing him to do rather than always accepting my justification of it. If someone always ends up agreeing with my choices, it just seems  . . . unnatural.

So yeah, that's a long read . . . and maybe it doesn't answer your challenge, maybe it does. But I'm done trying to convince folks of an acceptable compromise.

I mean seriously, if they added some definitely gay characters to Mass Effect 3 and kept everything else the same, how does that NOT make every group of players happy?

This was a well-reasoned post. I don't 100% agree with all the perceptions and conclusions, those being subjective matters of course, but this is how you offer a differing viewpoint.

I think a few of the characters, based on other aspects of their personality, could believably be bisexual even if they expressed only heterosexual tendencies in earlier games. For me, the main two characters would be Kaidan and Miranda. Each of them is a complex person with lots going on under the surface, and I could easily believe that part of their arc includes bisexual attraction to Shepard. Not everyone who is bisexual is attracted to both sexes equally, after all, and this discovery of that side of their nature could be a recent thing, and perhaps Shepard is the first to bring it to their conscious attention. Kaidan and Miranda aren't typical in any sense of the word, so it would be the most realistic to me if those two had more to reveal about themselves in ME3 (and not just about romance and sexuality, for that matter).

I do agree for other characters, bisexuality is a bit more of a stretch. Jacob seems like a what-you-see-is-what-you-get type of person, though him being bisexual might give him SOMETHING interesting about his character. Ashley seems to have a very crystallized sense of who she is, I think if she had a predisposition toward bisexuality she would have recognized it before the events of ME1, or would continue to be unaware of it until much later in life. Jack, I don't know about. On the one hand she's been there and done that, but in some ways that makes me think she's even more sure she prefers men. And I struggle with Tali and Garrus being attracted to humans in the first place, (but hey, some people are into that so no skin off my nose I guess) so I can't really determine how 'realistic' it would seem to be if either revealed bisexual leanings. Thane I don't know about, because every time I think of the Thane romance I kind of fall asleep.

I do not object to same-sex options being solely available with new characters though, I agree that it's probably the easiest way to do it. Any acknowledgment of same-sex interest on Shepard's part would be a step in the right direction.

[catabuca]

jlb524 wrote...

I've always suspected this as the real reason.   The discomfort/dissapointment with these bisexual romances is over the idea of having to share with the opposite gender and not the supposed shallowness of them.  I suppose they feel more special when they are just "yours".

Though, I guess it's okay to share with thousands of other fans playing the same gender as you.

Quite. When I have played femShep, I have 'shared' Kaidan with thousands of other people who also romance him. Go into the KAAS thread, and there are endless discussions about 'my Kaidan is like this with my femShep' and 'my Kaidan is like that with my femShep', and no one gets upset at the thought of all of these other fans enjoying that romance or creating a different idea of that romance in their heads, in their own game. So why is it such a different case to know that same romance is (or could be) available to players of a male PC? No one would steal into anybody's house over night and extract a little bit of Kaidan (I'll stop from letting my mind go to dirty places with that one *whistles innocently*) from someone else's game so they couldn't experience him and his romance in the same way ever again. No one would hack someone else's computer and make Kaidan love femShep any less.

I know using the example of Kaidan is more controversial to a lot of people, since he hasn't been available as a bi LI in previous games. But the logic remains the same for new characters as well if they should be bisexual, rather than say only straight or only gay. The ability for another player to access that optional romance content with one gender of PC does not remove anything at all from a player who wishes to access it with a PC of the other playable gender. It simply means everyone has access to the same content and gets the same awesome game experience. Since when did we become about trying to only let certain types of people have full access to a game?

[Maugrim]

Correct me if I'm wrong but there has been no overall statement about marriage and sexuality in the ME universe has there. I mean like David Gaider said about Dragon Age? I know there have been a few offhand references in the books and the game but any comment on overarching opinions?

[catabuca]

I'm firmly in the camp of 'unless someone tells you what their orientation is or actively displays it in some way, they could be straight, gay, bi or pan and you have no evidence to attest otherwise'.

To say 'but they just seem this way or that', isn't evidence of them being like that.

Regardless of any 'vibe' any of us might or might not have gotten from any character in any video game, film, novel or tv programme, and even if those characters have said that they have slept with woman X in the past (or man X), that does not mean they have not slept with anyone of any other gender as well. The only thing we can say with any certainty is that they have chosen to tell us, for whatever reason, that they slept with person X. Unless we ask them to sit down and compile a list of all the people they have dated and/or been attracted to, and then go through that list and check it against gender, not one of us can honestly and with good conscience say that that person is definitely gay, straight, bi or pan. We can make a guess, we can assume, but we must be aware those are simply assumptions based on the knowledge we have at the time. It is not hard fact.

Modifié par catabuca, 17 avril 2011 - 07:07 .

[Praetor Knight]

^ And if the Paramour achievement makes it into ME3, why not?



Edit: I should have stated that I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, and that I think a Paramour achievement should not make it into ME3.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 17 avril 2011 - 07:21 .

[Dexi]

What? This thread still going? You still arguing about gay...

Seriously, there won't be any gay romance options in ME3... Now stop it already before it blows...