9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Moodath]

While I can understand why people would want the option of having a relationship in the game that caters to their sexual orientation, I honestly don't feel that strongly about it.

I would rather have a character that was developed from scratch and turned into a well rounded squad mate with a unique personality and backstory than a character that the developers sat down and said "Ok we need a m/m f/m character...go"

They did that with Zevran and look what we got...an elf who talks about sex every other sentence, has a fetish for leather, and grew up as a ****. Its as if they just said "Lets take every stereotype there is and call it a day."
OR they decide that an existing character needs the bi option added so they force in some terrible dialogue that doesn't fit the character's personality just so they can attempt to appease the fans (Anders/Fenris)

I don't want that with Mass Effect.

With the exception of Jack, I haven't interacted with a character that I didn't enjoy. All of them feel unique to me (except for Grunt, who is just a Wrex clone, we all know it). Why is that? Because they weren't forced characters.

If you set out to craft a character just to fulfill one goal, its gonna be a crap character.

"We need another Krogan..." = Grunt
"We need a gay stereotype elf..." = Zevran
"We need some bi romantic interests..." = Anders/Fenris Dialogue Fail
"We need a bad ass violent chick with a dark past that hates everyone...cause that totally hasn't ever been done before, ever..." = Jack

Don't force yourself to make a gay/bi/lesbian character. It will ruin the character.

Besides... Its realistic...
I was into Alistair, but he wasn't gay...too bad for me, but thats his character, and I still like him.
I liked Kaidan, but he wasn't gay...sucks to be me I spose, but again..still one of my favorite characters.

I really liked a guy during the ninth grade...guess what...he wasn't gay...sucks to be me, but thats kinda how it works. People aren't gonna be gay just because you want them to be.

People seem to forget that while Mass Effect is about letting you shape Commander Shepard, its not about letting you shape others.
Its a story. Its a book that has been made interactive. There are set endings. Characters have specific personalities.

Thats why is successful to me. Nothing was forced.

I'm not saying it would be wrong to have a gay/bi/lesbian character...i'm just saying you can't force these things for the sake of appeasing fans.


TL;DR - When you craft a character first, and build from its personality, you get Tali/Garrus/Liara...when you craft a sexual orientation and then add a character...you get Zevran...think about it.

[Eterna]

Eddo36 wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...
I don't support ******
relationships. So no, keep it out of my games.

I do. Put them in mine.
And stop buying my games, you!

Not trying to insult anyone or any group of people, but stating a fact that I think this game is made by straight people. Gay men are less likely to be game developers because according to study, their minds are like straight women. I'm not pulling this out of thin air, so I'll show the proof-

What is, I don't even.......

[didymos1120]

Moodath wrote...
OR they decide that an existing character needs the bi option added so they force in some terrible dialogue that doesn't fit the character's personality just so they can attempt to appease the fans (Anders/Fenris)

Wait...what?  Fenris was an "existing character"?  Since when? 

[Moodath]

didymos1120 wrote...

Moodath wrote...
OR they decide that an existing character needs the bi option added so they force in some terrible dialogue that doesn't fit the character's personality just so they can attempt to appease the fans (Anders/Fenris)

Wait...what?  Fenris was an "existing character"?  Since when? 

Meaning they created the Fenris character on paper and then added crap dialogue...obviously he hadn't made an appearence before DA2.

[Eterna]

Moodath wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Moodath wrote...
OR they decide that an existing character needs the bi option added so they force in some terrible dialogue that doesn't fit the character's personality just so they can attempt to appease the fans (Anders/Fenris)

Wait...what?  Fenris was an "existing character"?  Since when? 

Meaning they created the Fenris character on paper and then added crap dialogue...obviously he hadn't made an appearence before DA2.

 I don't think Anders/ Fenris S/S romance dialouge was bad at all.

[ElitePinecone]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong but there has been no overall statement about marriage and sexuality in the ME universe has there. I mean like David Gaider said about Dragon Age? I know there have been a few offhand references in the books and the game but any comment on overarching opinions?

There hasn't been any specific commentary on it, but we can make some assumptions based on small tidbits.

The most obvious example would be Hendel Mitra, the gay ex-Alliance marine/head of security in Drew Karpyshyn's "Ascension" novel. The other characters show no overtly negative reaction to him, and he's written as a reasonably sympathetic character who shows devotion to a young woman in his care (surrogate father, maybe). 

Another related concept is Shepard's conversation with Ashley about the Alliance's regulations on religious freedom (something along the lines of "I can't tell you what  to believe, it says right there in the regulations"), which I would suspect extends to sexual orientation, at least among the military. 

There's been no specific codex entries or commentary on the issue by Bioware staffers, the closest I can think of is the blog from Chris L'Etoile (Bioware writer for ME/ME2) who wrote about human society in the future. 

His really fascinating blog posts about it are here.

If you want to get an insight into the mindset of where Bioware's writers were aiming in terms of their sci-fi (at least for the first game, ME2 looks... different) then that's a great resource to read. 

[didymos1120]

Moodath wrote...
Meaning they created the Fenris character on paper and then added crap dialogue...obviously he hadn't made an appearence before DA2.

You're assuming they created this hypothetical "straight Fenris" first and only then "converted" him into a bisexual character by slapping on some lines.  Problem is, there's a total lack of evidence for this notion.  And no: the fact that you personally don't like the m/m dialogue isn't evidence.

Modifié par didymos1120, 17 avril 2011 - 07:59 .

[Centauri2002]

Moodath wrote...

*snip*


TL;DR - When you craft a character first, and build from its personality, you get Tali/Garrus/Liara...when you craft a sexual orientation and then add a character...you get Zevran...think about it.

I happen to agree with your point that you should create a character without building it around sexuality. But I think you're contradicting yourself in your own argument here.

Shouldn't it make more sense, therefore, that an existing character become one of the same sex options because they were created with their personality in mind and are a strong, stable example of a character already? 

Also, I see the assumption made a lot in this thread that sexuality will change you as a person. Sexuality is just who you're attracted to, it doesn't affect your personality, your view on life, your combat effectiveness, your biotic potential, your intelligence, etc. If it were to turn out that Kaiden, for example, was bisexual then there would be absolutely no change to his personality. He'd still act and speak in the same way.

Personally, I think I'd prefer to see a character created with, as you say, their personality in mind first but with the idea of making them gay as well. I've always enjoyed stories more where a character's sexuality is a minor part of them. The story is about this character who happens to be gay, rather than the story about a gay character who happens to be caught in a plot. If that makes sense. 

Modifié par centauri2002, 17 avril 2011 - 08:11 .

[Moodath]

didymos1120 wrote...

Moodath wrote...
Meaning they created the Fenris character on paper and then added crap dialogue...obviously he hadn't made an appearence before DA2.

You're assuming they created this hypothetical "straight Fenris" first and only then "converted" him into a bisexual character by slapping on some lines.  Problem is, there's a total lack of evidence for this notion.  And no: the fact that you personally don't like the m/m dialogue isn't evidence.

Rofl...i'm not trying to prove anything or offer any evidence toward my 'notion'. I'm just saying the reason he's not a memorable character (and fanboys aside, theres a crap load of people who would agree with me) is because his M/M dialogue doesn't fit him. Is that an opinion? Yeh.

And in case you don't know, every character ever written was defined by slapping on a few lines. Some were done well, some were not. Some characters have dialogue forced onto them just to please a certain audience. I personally think thats what happend with Fenris. Or It could be that he was always that crappy and no lines were forced at all...either way...he's crap to me.

[JediMB]

Moodath wrote...

They did that with Zevran and look what we got...an elf who talks about sex every other sentence, has a fetish for leather, and grew up as a ****. Its as if they just said "Lets take every stereotype there is and call it a day."

Have you actually gotten to know Zevran? There's more to him than that.

(I romanced him with a female Warden, by the way.)

Moodath wrote...

Besides... Its realistic...
I was into Alistair, but he wasn't gay...too bad for me, but thats his character, and I still like him.
I liked Kaidan, but he wasn't gay...sucks to be me I spose, but again..still one of my favorite characters.

I really liked a guy during the ninth grade...guess what...he wasn't gay...sucks to be me, but thats kinda how it works. People aren't gonna be gay just because you want them to be.

The difference between the real world and a game is that the game is crafted, though. We already have highly improbable characters in these games, and these issues have always been more about probability than realism.

Moodath wrote...



People seem to forget that while Mass Effect is about letting you shape Commander Shepard, its not about letting you shape others.
Its a story. Its a book that has been made interactive. There are set endings. Characters have specific personalities.

Not entirely true. Take Ashley and her "xenophobia", and Garrus' attitude toward law enforcement. Both are shaped simply by Shepard speaking to the characters onboard the Normandy.

But on the actual subject we're talking about, Shepard obviously isn't the one shaping the characters. BioWare's developers are.

Moodath wrote...



Thats why is successful to me. Nothing was forced.

I'm not saying it would be wrong to have a gay/bi/lesbian character...i'm just saying you can't force these things for the sake of appeasing fans.

Nothing was forced? Some would look at the Tali and Garrus romances in ME2 and quite disagree with that. Those were very much implemented in response to the characters' popularity in the original game.

Moodath wrote...



TL;DR - When you craft a character first, and build from its personality, you get Tali/Garrus/Liara...when you craft a sexual orientation and then add a character...you get Zevran...think about it.

It's kind of funny that you put Liara in there, since she was the token "bisexual" character in Mass Effect.

And crafting a character whose outer personality revolves largely around sexual freedom doesn't mean that the character was crafted to fit a sexual orientation. Like I said, there's a lot more to him than that, such as his attitude towards other elves, his views on love and mercy, his wit, and his hilarious dialogue when placed in the party alongside Leliana.

[Maugrim]

centauri2002 wrote...

Also, I see the assumption made a lot in this thread that sexuality will change you as a person. Sexuality is just who you're attracted to, it doesn't affect your personality, your view on life, your combat effectiveness, your biotic potential, your intelligence, etc.

Point of order.

Considering Kaidan can't even say the word lesbian if FemShep express a preference for Liara I'd say it's safe to say homosexuality is still along the lines of "a quirk of character" at best. In a perfectly accepting world your sexuality wouldn't change how anyone is.  What some people seem to confuse however is that outside influences, bigotry, hate discrimination etc. can have an effect on a person.  From forcing them into a closet to literally save their lives. To use a ripped from the headlines example gay teens are 4x more likely to attempt to committ suicide than non-gay teens.  The increase is not because they are gay but because of how others react to the fact that they are gay or to quote

"Nothing is more likely to make you sick than being constantly told that
you are sick." - Ronald Gold

It's the same phenomenon that makes people think all gay males are loud promiscous queens.  Because these are the people that stand out they think these are the "norm" when they are infact outliers. There is a short story by Bruce Colville called "Am I Blue?" where a questioning youth gets wishes from his Fairy Godfather.  One of them is to turn anyone who was queer blue for a day to show the world that they interact with queer people all the time and don't know it. 

If people were aware of just how many people the interacted with on a daily basis that were queer to some degree there would be a lot less of this "but Shepard can't be gay because gays are...."

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 17 avril 2011 - 08:30 .

[Moodath]

centauri2002 wrote...

Moodath wrote...

*snip*


TL;DR - When you craft a character first, and build from its personality, you get Tali/Garrus/Liara...when you craft a sexual orientation and then add a character...you get Zevran...think about it.

Also, I see the assumption made a lot in this thread that sexuality will change you as a person. Sexuality is just who you're attracted to, it doesn't affect your personality, your view on life, your combat effectiveness, your biotic potential, your intelligence, etc. If it were to turn out that Kaiden, for example, was bisexual then there would be absolutely no change to his personality. He'd still act and speak in the same way.

Personally, I think I'd prefer to see a character created with, as you say, their personality in mind first but with the idea of making them gay as well. I've always enjoyed stories more where a character's sexuality is a minor part of them. The story is about this character who happens to be gay, rather than the story about a gay character who happens to be caught in a plot. If that makes sense. 

Its not that I think that a character would be completely changed by adding the option, its that I don't want Bioware to be irresponsible about it. You can make a gay character straight or a straight character gay and not change the personality. But so far all the m/m characters/dialogue from Bioware seems to be driven off of stereotypes. That doesn't help a character, it hurts it.

And thats where my thoughts on this are addressing...Bioware's handling of their characters.
In my opinion, it just seems like an odd coincidence that all the characters with a m/m option tend to either fit a stereostype or have bad dialogue.

If you disagree, thats great. If you enjoy those characters, i'm happy for ya (I like alistair...most people hate him T.T).

I'm simply sharing my opinion in a thread full of opinions.

So again...I'm for gay/bi/lesbian characters, as long as they aren't Zevrans and don't have bad dialogue that feels forced.

[Centauri2002]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Point of order.

In a perfectly accepting world your sexuality wouldn't change how anyone is.  What some people seem to confuse however is that outside influences, bigotry, hate discrimination etc. can have an effect on a person.  From forcing them into a closet to literally save their lives. To use a ripped from the headlines example gay teens are 4x more likely to attempt to committ suicide than non-gay teens.  The increase is not because they are gay but because of how others react to the fact that they are gay or to quote

"Nothing is more likely to make you sick than being constantly told that
you are sick." - Ronald Gold

It's the same phenomenon that makes people think all gay males are loud promiscous queens.  Because these are the people that stand out they think these are the "norm" when they are infact outliers. There is a short story by Bruce Colville called "Am I Blue?" where a questioning youth gets wishes from his Fairy Godfather.  One of them is to turn anyone who was queer blue for a day to show the world that they interact with queer people all the time and don't know it. 

If people were aware of just how many people the interacted with on a daily basis that were queer to some degree there would be a lot less of this "but Shepard can't be gay because gays are...."

Yes, unfortunately in today's world it's not easy to be simply who you are. I've faced a lot of examples of discrimination and bigotry myself. That affects how I react to certain situations, admittedly, but it still doesn't change who I am as a person. In Mass Effect, I would hope there wouldn't be this kind of discrimination (I'm eternally optimistic that the human race will have gotten over this particular issue in a century) wouldn't exist and so it shouldn't change the way a character would behave. 

As far as I can see, the only thing stopping same sex romances in ME are people's misconceptions about sexuality. From what I've seen of the BioWare player base, a majority of people are open minded and accepting, or simply do not care if there are same sex options, so I'm not sure what's holding development back. Perhaps it's too late to add it into the trilogy now, perhaps the developers just don't want those options in there, or perhaps a large portion of the community just isn't ready to see it. Either way, I don't think those reasons are quite good enough.

[catabuca]

@ElitePinecone -- thanks for posting that link. It was a really fascinating read

[Centauri2002]

Moodath wrote...

Its not that I think that a character would be completely changed by adding the option, its that I don't want Bioware to be irresponsible about it. You can make a gay character straight or a straight character gay and not change the personality. But so far all the m/m characters/dialogue from Bioware seems to be driven off of stereotypes. That doesn't help a character, it hurts it.

And thats where my thoughts on this are addressing...Bioware's handling of their characters.
In my opinion, it just seems like an odd coincidence that all the characters with a m/m option tend to either fit a stereostype or have bad dialogue.

If you disagree, thats great. If you enjoy those characters, i'm happy for ya (I like alistair...most people hate him T.T).

I'm simply sharing my opinion in a thread full of opinions.

So again...I'm for gay/bi/lesbian characters, as long as they aren't Zevrans and don't have bad dialogue that feels forced.

I see. Well, in that case, I agree with you then.

Forcing anything never turns out well but there's no need to play to stereotypes. As you say, they don't turn out well. Personally, I didn't like Zevran. It had nothing to do with his sexuality, I just found him a little sleazy. (Alistair I did like, however. He was goofy and his banter with Morrigan was priceless. I had no interest in romancing him but he was a good character to have in my party, I thought.) 

Of course, this comes down to personal preference as well. I don't find stereotypes particularly attractive. I'm sure some people do. I think most people can agree that we don't require those stereotypes in place to be able to identify a character as gay/bi/straight though. It shouldn't be a defining factor in the way they behave. Period. The only thing it should change is the way they respond to romance dialogue.

Modifié par centauri2002, 17 avril 2011 - 08:41 .

[ElitePinecone]

catabuca wrote...

@ElitePinecone -- thanks for posting that link. It was a really fascinating read

I enjoyed it; one really gets the sense that the ME writing team put a lot of effort into defining the universe and the political situation of humanity in terms of its difference to the present. I hope this is explored a lot in ME3: for whatever reasons, aside from a few awesome moments, I felt that ME2 didn't go into as much depth about the universe's backstory and the sort of future that L'Etoile tries to map out in those articles. 

One of the strengths of the series, in terms of its approach to writing, is that it's resolutely non-Utopian in its outlook. Humans might have their shiny spaceships, but Earth is still an overpopulated, strife-torn, unequal home. Reading most of what Karpyshyn and L'Etoile are writing, though, makes me almost certain that attitudes to sexuality would be infinitely more liberal than the present. Karpyshyn in particular deliberately states that ethnic, religious and cultural differences have almost been eliminated by centuries of globalisation (Hendel Mitra, to use the example above, is half Scandinavian and half Indian, or something).  

[Moodath]

Have you actually gotten to know Zevran? There's more to him than that.

(I romanced him with a female Warden, by the way.)

I have gotten to know him...And you're right, there is more to him on top of the stereostypes, it just seems to me however that his character was built with the goal of creating a bi character who fit society's definition of gay.

The difference between the real world and a game is that the game is crafted, though. We already have highly improbable characters in these games, and these issues have always been more about probability than realism.

It depends on what the goal of the writer is. Harry Potter isn't gay. Could he be? Yes. But he's Rowling's character, and he wasn't created that way.
When Kaidan was created he wasn't gay. A few lines of dialogue (good or bad) could change that, but maybe the writer just didn't see Kaidan as being gay. Kaidan belongs to that writer. It would be an insult to an artist to force them to change something just so it could appeal to a wider audience.

Not entirely true. Take Ashley and her "xenophobia", and Garrus' attitude toward law enforcement. Both are shaped simply by Shepard speaking to the characters onboard the Normandy.

But on the actual subject we're talking about, Shepard obviously isn't the one shaping the characters. BioWare's developers are.

Thats true that there are some small options that players get to craft their companions somewhat, but ultimately, so far, they act the same no matter what choice you made.

Nothing was forced? Some would look at the Tali and Garrus romances in ME2 and quite disagree with that. Those were very much implemented in response to the characters' popularity in the original game.


It's kind of funny that you put Liara in there, since she was the token "bisexual" character in Mass Effect.

I can see why some people would view it as 'forced'. But I feel that overall their characters as a whole were well written and handeled. There are a few romance lines that I cringe at for every character, but (in my opinion) I felt that garrus, liara, and tali weren't huge offenders. And I included Liara because even though she was a token 'bisexual' character, she was handeled the correct way.

And crafting a character whose outer personality revolves largely around sexual freedom doesn't mean that the character was crafted to fit a sexual orientation. Like I said, there's a lot more to him than that, such as his attitude towards other elves, his views on love and mercy, his wit, and his hilarious dialogue when placed in the party alongside Leliana.

You're right...but leather, relationship loss at the mention of love during m/m interaction, and his upbringing/current life being all about sex? Seems pretty stereo to me

Modifié par Moodath, 17 avril 2011 - 08:54 .

[catabuca]

We now have 1140 members of the group. We have some good discussions over there, so anyone who isn't a member please feel free to check it out.

(I'd avoid the generic 'comments' section for discussion though, since it's impossible to scroll straight to the last comment, you have to page through lots and lots of pages first. It makes holding a discussion almost impossible. Stick to the main discussion threads if at all possible. )

Modifié par catabuca, 17 avril 2011 - 08:59 .

[JediMB]

Moodath wrote...

You're right...but leather, relationship loss at the mention of love during m/m interaction, and his upbringing/current life being all about sex? Seems pretty stereo to me

Not sure what real-life stereotypes you're referring to.

But his life has been all about being an assassin after his initial upbringing. Seduction just happens to sometimes be part of that. Leliana can tell you that too.

[didymos1120]

ElitePinecone wrote...
 I hope this is explored a lot in ME3: for whatever reasons, aside from a few awesome moments, I felt that ME2 didn't go into as much depth about the universe's backstory and the sort of future that L'Etoile tries to map out in those articles. 

Really?  Because the way I see it, ME2 actually captures that cynical side of the setting that L'Etoile talked about as being a large part of his contribution very well:

Ilium is oh-so-very shiny and lovely....and has a thriving trade in "indentured servants". 

Those polite, well-spoken, religiously quirky and non-threatening hanar have a cadre of assassins culled from a client race, trained in their art since childhood. 

Humans who dislike the Alliance and don't want to share with Earth or some colony development concern strike out on their own....and get essentially no help as a result when trouble comes calling: you may be human and all, but you aren't ours. 

Those plucky, down-on-their luck quarians have some pretty nasty politics in that fleet of theirs, and some who would seem to be among the best of them aren't above a few war crimes. 

It's a galaxy of opportunity for these brash, "young" humans who've set out among the stars...and that includes drugs, murder, thieving, rape, torture, joining organized crime outfits masquerading as PMCs, becoming the victims of alien serial killers, or living on lovely Omega.

  So on. So forth.

Modifié par didymos1120, 17 avril 2011 - 09:06 .

[TheChris92]

M8DMAN wrote...
Now on the other hand Fenris and Isabella's Bisexuality felt more natural because those characters were wrote to be Bi from the start. 

Fenris was wrote to be Bi from the start? Can you please find a quote from Gaider that confirms this?

[Moodath]

JediMB wrote...

Moodath wrote...

You're right...but leather, relationship loss at the mention of love during m/m interaction, and his upbringing/current life being all about sex? Seems pretty stereo to me

Not sure what real-life stereotypes you're referring to.

But his life has been all about being an assassin after his initial upbringing. Seduction just happens to sometimes be part of that. Leliana can tell you that too.

I agree that an assassin needs to use his/her good looks to their advantage...but Zevran has slept with a lot of people who weren't targets.

Which fits the stereotype i'm referring to, that gay guys sleep with a new guy every night, and have no feelings for their sexual partners. Which Zevran expresses during m/m conversation (hence the 'relationship loss at the mention of love' comment). At least that seems to be a popular stereotype around my area.

Regardless, its just my own opinion and i'm glad you liked the character.

[didymos1120]

Moodath wrote...

When Kaidan was created he wasn't gay.

Don't be so sure:

I didn't work on ME1 but I would venture to say that most of the developers feel that Liara/Femshep is an F/F relationship. I don't know if the "she's an asari" thing was ever intended to take away from the F/F aspect (since I wasn't around when the idea was put together) but nevertheless, she was intended as the gay female love interest.

As far as M/M love interests... I can say that it was planned, but as far as I know it was cut due to time constraints. Quite frankly the demand is small. I'm not defending it, but the choice is between a level that everyone will enjoy and a romance that only a minority will enjoy. We did it in Jade so we're not afraid of it; there just isn't enough time.

Sorry to all the gay ME fans

Modifié par didymos1120, 17 avril 2011 - 09:12 .

[Moodath]

didymos1120 wrote...

Moodath wrote...

When Kaidan was created he wasn't gay.

Don't be so sure:

I didn't work on ME1 but I would venture to say that most of the developers feel that Liara/Femshep is an F/F relationship. I don't know if the "she's an asari" thing was ever intended to take away from the F/F aspect (since I wasn't around when the idea was put together) but nevertheless, she was intended as the gay female love interest.

As far as M/M love interests... I can say that it was planned, but as far as I know it was cut due to time constraints. Quite frankly the demand is small. I'm not defending it, but the choice is between a level that everyone will enjoy and a romance that only a minority will enjoy. We did it in Jade so we're not afraid of it; there just isn't enough time.

Sorry to all the gay ME fans

Interesting

Regardless though, Kaidan isn't gay now and it would be stupid for him to be magically attracted to Male Shepard during ME3. Unless there was some kind of epic quest line that involved you trying to coax him out of the closet. That would work i spose ;p

Modifié par Moodath, 17 avril 2011 - 09:16 .

[catabuca]

People might find the quotes that David Gaider writes here in this thread of interest in terms of what it means to have an 'all-bi' cast of LIs, how they were written, how they may or may not be perceived, and so on.