9243 réponses à ce sujet

[catabuca]

Abramis brama wrote...


Doesn't matter. In my mind Asari aren't female and that is the only thing that matters to me.
Though the whole race seems more of a nerd dream. Mono-gendered alien female race who mostly works on strip bars? yeah right.

So honey, when manShep gets it on with Liara, what you're saying is he's not in a straight, heterosexual relationship with her? Sorry, with 'it'. So manShep isn't straight? Right?

[ElitePinecone]

centauri2002 wrote...

That said, I think BioWare will find it difficult to release any game without the expectation of varying romance options. They've made a rod for their own back there. One I'm very happy is there, might I add.

True, and it's definitely welcome. 

My counterpoint to that, though, is a concern that the industry as a whole isn't pressured to widen diversity because Bioware are now known as "the company doing s/s options". It's a hell of an improvement from even five years ago, especially DA2 in terms of what was actually said (some of the dialogue themes with Anders, I'd wager, have never been said in a same-sex relationship in gaming history) - but they're just one company producing a few IPs.

That being said, I'm a huge fan of the BW writing team (Gaider in particular, and Drew Karpyshyn in Ascension) for writing generally believable characters that aren't thrown in just for political correctness and genuinely break ground in terms of what we've seen from the industry. 

I'm speculating for a second here, but assuming the next game isn't an MMO or a multiplayer shooter (shudder), I think it'd be great to see the ME universe from a less heroic perspective, perhaps as just a ship with a small crew involved in a side-story with lots of character development. Plenty of chances to tone down the explosions and delve more into the universe, its characters and its history. 

Exploring a vision of a seemingly-flawed future as outlined in L'Etoile's blog would be amazing - even literary if they could nail it. 

[catabuca]

ElitePinecone wrote...

One thing I'd like to get some thoughts on: assuming ME3 is successful and Bioware plan more games set in the same universe, do people think there's a greater chance of s/s romances if the game isn't skewed towards the shooter crowd? Is the audience a factor, given that they seemed to work fine in DA2?

If it's not aiming for the same audience as ME, then sure, I think they might just be more willing to put in some s/s. But, I can't honestly believe that they would aim another same-universe game at a crowd that doesn't include the audience they've built up over the course of the trilogy. That's the problem. They'll want to retain those numbers.

[JediMB]

centauri2002 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

One thing I'd like to get some thoughts on: assuming ME3 is successful and Bioware plan more games set in the same universe, do people think there's a greater chance of s/s romances if the game isn't skewed towards the shooter crowd? Is the audience a factor, given that they seemed to work fine in DA2?

Very interesting question. I still saw argument against same sex romances for DA2 but it does seem a less vocal crowd than those here in ME. I can't really comment much on the attitude of gamers attracted to shooter type games, as I don't know them well, but it does seem to have made a difference in the kind of people it draws. Maybe that's just because ME has broader appeal? It's hard to say. However, I think it's fairly certain Mass Effect has a consistent following now and any further releases within the universe will pull in the same kinds of players.

"The shooter crowd" really is too much of a generalization to be useful. I've been playing first-person shooters since 1993, when I was 9 years old.

I suppose the generation of shooter fans we're thinking of are the ones who got into the genre with the Halo or Call of Duty franchises on the consoles. On the PC-side of things, I'd like to think that the Counter-Strike fans have at least matured a bit in the 11+ years since the franchise came to be, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong.

There's this macho culture that has been bred within the competetive side of the FPS community, and while I want to think that it has gotten worse in recent years, it's probably just a matter of there being more gamers now than there used to be. Thinking back, I do remember how girls were treated in multiplayer games back in the mid-late 90's, so maybe the attitude has simply shifted from sexism to homophobia.

*shrugs*

I've lost track of my throughts. I think I'll just stop typing now.

[Centauri2002]

JediMB wrote...

"The shooter crowd" really is too much of a generalization to be useful. I've been playing first-person shooters since 1993, when I was 9 years old.

I suppose the generation of shooter fans we're thinking of are the ones who got into the genre with the Halo or Call of Duty franchises on the consoles. On the PC-side of things, I'd like to think that the Counter-Strike fans have at least matured a bit in the 11+ years since the franchise came to be, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong.

There's this macho culture that has been bred within the competetive side of the FPS community, and while I want to think that it has gotten worse in recent years, it's probably just a matter of there being more gamers now than there used to be. Thinking back, I do remember how girls were treated in multiplayer games back in the mid-late 90's, so maybe the attitude has simply shifted from sexism to homophobia.

*shrugs*

I've lost track of my throughts. I think I'll just stop typing now.

Yes, it's a bit of a generalisation. I've played my share of FPS and participated in the multiplayer versions of those, but not since the late 90s. I've seen that sexism first hand and I've seen that it continues to this day, mostly through forums though. I'd really like to think the community has matured but old stereotypes and misconceptions are hard to shift. I'm not saying the shooter community is the group to blame for this, because they're not, it's just societal opinion as a whole.

A lot of progress has been made though and I'm quite happy that I can be taken seriously on a forum like this and in-game.

ETA: Not to worry, your thoughts came through coherently. :3

Modifié par centauri2002, 18 avril 2011 - 12:24 .

[ElitePinecone]

I'll admit it was a bit of a generalisation of shooter fans.

I should choose my words more carefully What I meant was: seemingly more casual gamers with a greater interest in the action-adventure gung-ho machismo side of Mass Effect, to the exclusion of its more mature themes and existential questions about philosophy, politics, racism, xenophobia, etc - plus the amazing character interaction and writing that Bioware are generally known for.

That's not to say this is a hard-and-fast dichotomy, but given that 80% of ME2 players (playthroughs?) were as the default male Shepard, the audience doesn't seem awfully keen on customisation.

[Centauri2002]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I'll admit it was a bit of a generalisation of shooter fans.

I should choose my words more carefully What I meant was: seemingly more casual gamers with a greater interest in the action-adventure gung-ho machismo side of Mass Effect, to the exclusion of its more mature themes and existential questions about philosophy, politics, racism, xenophobia, etc - plus the amazing character interaction and writing that Bioware are generally known for.

That's not to say this is a hard-and-fast dichotomy, but given that 80% of ME2 players (playthroughs?) were as the default male Shepard, the audience doesn't seem awfully keen on customisation.

Really? The statistics place it at 80%? I'm oddly disconcerted by that number. D:

That said, I don't think a lot of those settled for only one play through.

Modifié par centauri2002, 18 avril 2011 - 12:44 .

[Cootie]

>_>


If there is an option to make Shepard sound like Jethann in ME3, I'll be a happy Cootie.

[Abramis brama]

centauri2002 wrote...

It's not a logical argument to insist one thing can't exist because it doesn't fit into this fantasy-verse one moment and then to disregard another aspect af that universe completely for being too fantastical. At least be consistent. And what's the point in joining in a debate if you're not going to even accept other people's, especially the people working on the project, views?

didymos1120 wrote...

It does when you make unqualified statements that stuff "doesn't count." You can ignore the facts as much as you like, and concoct your own personal canon, but that does nothing to alter their status as fact. Asari are female. It's intended to be an F/F relationship.

ElitePinecone wrote...

By all means let your own opinions override such pesky things as "reality" and "the truth". Ignore Bioware's comments as long as they don't fit your views, and espouse them when they do. That *is* how double standards work, right?

There are no facts except mine to me. Asari are not female. My reality, my facts.
What developers say is irrelevant to me.
Also not really "debating" here just stating my opinions like you all.

didymos1120 wrote...
Yes, they're partly drawn from the "green alien babes" tradition of SF (e.g. the Orion Slave Girls of Star Trek). So what? That actually just reinforces the fact they're female.

Only thing it reinforces is that Bioware is short on imagination and lets me strenghten my disregard for developers "intent".

catabuca wrote...

So honey, when manShep gets it on with Liara, what you're saying is he's not in a straight, heterosexual relationship with her? Sorry, with 'it'. So manShep isn't straight? Right?

It's a relationship with a alien, another race which doesn't have gender.

ElitePinecone wrote...
One thing I'd like to get some thoughts on: assuming ME3 is successful and Bioware plan more games set in the same universe, do people think there's a greater chance of s/s romances if the game isn't skewed towards the shooter crowd? Is the audience a factor, given that they seemed to work fine in DA2?

I'm absolutily sure if/when ME gets an another RPG that it will have s/s romance. Reading this forum and seeing all the s/s romance lovers and apparent success of DA is pretty good indication on that. I don't think and hope that it will have everyone Bi as in DA2 but s/s is almost 100% sure.

[Centauri2002]

Cootie wrote...

>_>


If there is an option to make Shepard sound like Jethann in ME3, I'll be a happy Cootie.

 That might actually make it worthwhile playing as MaleShep. 

[ElitePinecone]

centauri2002 wrote...

Really? The statistics place it at 80%? I'm oddly disconcerted by that number. D:

That said, I don't think a lot of those settled for only one play through.

Oops, I was slightly off with that statistic - that'll teach me to not re-check

Turns out 83% of players *didn't* use the default Shepard face, but 82% *did* play as a male Shepard of one face or another. Just 18% used a female Shep - though I'm not sure if that was overall, or individual players, or total playthroughs.

Full details here.

[Centauri2002]

@Abramis: There's a big difference between stating your opinion and debating. I like to debate, to accept that someone has another opinion and offer a logical argument to it if I happen to disagree. Dismissing someone's opinion entirely is not the same and it's, frankly, quite rude.

Also, stating that it's your reality and your facts comes off as a little... delusional? I don't mean that to insult you, I just can't grasp the logic of it.

There's some things you can customise in Mass Effect - Shepard's first name, Shepard's appearance and gender, Shepard's personality and actions. You cannot alter the world around Shepard. Mass effect relays are required for fast travel between systems, you need thermal clips for ammo in Mass Effect 2, the Shadow Broker is a Yahg, and asari are female. These are all facts of the world. Believing otherwise doesn't change those facts. They are given to you in the narrative of the game story. They are stated in the codex. Anything else is denial.

[Centauri2002]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Oops, I was slightly off with that statistic - that'll teach me to not re-check

Turns out 83% of players *didn't* use the default Shepard face, but 82% *did* play as a male Shepard of one face or another. Just 18% used a female Shep - though I'm not sure if that was overall, or individual players, or total playthroughs.

Full details here.

That's a relief. >.>

It's good to see the customisability remains as popular as ever. I'm a little saddened by the prospect that so many people didn't get to hear Jennifer Hale's voice acting. I'm not so sure about that 18% statistic on FemShep though. I'm sure that won't include multiple play throughs.

[Abramis brama]

centauri2002 wrote...

Also, stating that it's your reality and your facts comes off as a little... delusional? I don't mean that to insult you, I just can't grasp the logic of it.

No, it's definitely delusional. I just cannot think them as female. Admitting or even thinking that FemShep/Liara is s/s relationship would be me lying to myself. It's a fact of my "world".

Turns out 83% of players *didn't* use the default Shepard face, but 82%
*did* play as a male Shepard of one face or another. Just 18% used a
female Shep - though I'm not sure if that was overall, or individual
players, or total playthroughs.

Always thought that this was weird. I mean more people playing male is expected but 4/5 is too much.
Why wouldn't people want to play as FemShep? Better voice acting and I think it gives a somewhat new experience considering all bald space marines there is.

Modifié par Abramis brama, 18 avril 2011 - 01:21 .

[Centauri2002]

Abramis brama wrote...

No, it's definitely delusional. I just cannot think them as female. Admitting or even thinking that FemShep/Liara is s/s relationship would be me lying to myself. It's a fact of my "world".

Fair enough, if that's how you view it I can't really say much against it. However, I would like to understand your point of view a little better, if you don't mind. What's your reasoning for this world of yours? Or, rather, why can't you see the asari as female? And, out of curiosity, what else is different in your view of Mass Effect than the generally accepted facts?

Modifié par centauri2002, 18 avril 2011 - 01:27 .

[catabuca]

Don't forget these are numbers that should be taken with a pinch of salt. I have numerous playthroughs of both games, and I've been connected online <10% of that time. I'm sure, for console players particularly, that isn't necessarily uncommon. But still, they do represent some sort of trend, even if they aren't 100% accurate.

I have more manShep runs than femShep. I prefer Meer to Hale, just a personal preference, and I prefer to play Shep as a guy. My only femShep plays are to experience the Kaidan romance. And I haven't completed a customised manShep run -- all my mains are Sheploo. I customise femShep every time though.

[Centauri2002]

catabuca wrote...

Don't forget these are numbers that should be taken with a pinch of salt. I have numerous playthroughs of both games, and I've been connected online <10% of that time. I'm sure, for console players particularly, that isn't necessarily uncommon. But still, they do represent some sort of trend, even if they aren't 100% accurate.

I have more manShep runs than femShep. I prefer Meer to Hale, just a personal preference, and I prefer to play Shep as a guy. My only femShep plays are to experience the Kaidan romance. And I haven't completed a customised manShep run -- all my mains are Sheploo. I customise femShep every time though.

That's a good point. Sometimes I just don't bother connecting when I play. I've played several times as FemShep (my preference being quite the opposite to yours, it seems) and have never gotten far with MaleShep. I tried seeing what the Ashley romance with him would be like but couldn't get through the first section of the game. The one time I did create a MaleShep (that short-lived time), I customised him. Then I promptly selected New Game and created another FemShep. >.>

It would be interesting to see what limitations were placed on these statistics? Whether first play throughs were only counted, etc.

Modifié par centauri2002, 18 avril 2011 - 01:33 .

[JediMB]

I've played as MaleShep exactly once in both games. I really do want to experience the Tali and Miranda romances (did Jack's first <3), but the thought of having to play through the whole game as MaleShep again isn't an appealing one.

Meanwhile, the only ME2 FemShep romance (besides Liara) that I'm the least bit interested in is Thane's.

Modifié par JediMB, 18 avril 2011 - 01:41 .

[Centauri2002]

JediMB wrote...

I've played as MaleShep exactly once in both games. I really do want to experience the Tali and Miranda romances (did Jack's first <3), but the thought of having to play through the whole game as MaleShep again isn't an appealing one.

Meanwhile, the only ME2 FemShep romance (besides Liara) that I'm the least bit interested in is Thane's.

I find Thane an incredibly interesting character and I always enjoyed speaking to him in the game, but I never had the inclination to romance him. I think I'm too set in my ways. That, and my Shepard's fiercely loyal. >.>

[Abramis brama]

centauri2002 wrote...

Fair enough, if that's how you view it I can't really say much against it. However, I would like to understand your point of view a little better, if you don't mind. What's your reasoning for this world of yours? Or, rather, why can't you see the asari as female?

It's just the things I've been saying. Asari are alien, has boobs out of necessity and are mono-gendered. Those make me think them as a alien race with one gender(Not male nor female) rather than female alien race. So when I see FemShep romance Liara I don't see it as a s/s romance but rather a FemShep with alien she loves. I cannot really explain it well, It's not overly logical.
Though of course I'm not blind and can see how they're femaleish. We haven't really seen many Asari with women and with a male they seem to be always the susmissive partner(Citadel has that Krogan exception though) and has more feminine traits.

And, out of curiosity, what else is different in your view of Mass Effect than the generally accepted facts?

Can't really think of anything else... I find Miranda kind of ugly?

Nyoka wrote...

Abramis brama wrote...

There are no facts except mine to me. Asari are not female. My reality, my facts.

Well,
as long as you're aware that you're not living in the real world, but
in a fictional world that only exists in your head, that's okay.

However,
you'll understand that whatever happens in your imaginary world can't
be relevant to a debate about a game that exists in the one that is
real, so it doesn't really belong in this thread.

First you need to calm youself and take a sip of your favorite beverage because what I'm going to say will be a shock.

Mass effect is not real. Sorry. That's just how it is.
I hope you are okay there.

Modifié par Abramis brama, 18 avril 2011 - 03:05 .

[Centauri2002]

Abramis brama wrote...

It's just the things I've been saying. Asari are alien, has boobs out of necessity and are mono-gendered. Those make me think them as a alien race with one gender(Not male nor female) rather than female alien race. So when I see FemShep romance Liara I don't see it as a s/s romance but rather a FemShep with alien she loves. I cannot really explain it well, It's not overly logical.
Though of course I'm not blind and can see how they're femaleish. We haven't really seen many Asari with women and with a male they seem to be always the susmissive partner(Citadel has that Krogan exception though) and has more feminine traits.

And, out of curiosity, what else is different in your view of Mass Effect than the generally accepted facts?

Can't really think of anything else... I find Miranda kind of ugly?

Okay, I can understand where you're coming from. To an exceptionally open minded individual I'm sure they can see past gender and even species and just accept the relationship as one person loving another. That said, I see my FemShep as being restricted by the notions she's grown up with so she can't help but view Liara as female. But that's my Shepard.

Oh, I can think of a few asari who would likely be dominant in any kind of relationship. Aria is a good example. I can also think of a few examples of asari with women. In fact, I remember footage from the Shadow Broker's lair of that human reporter making out with an asari. >.>

Actually, I don't find Miranda very attractive either. Perhaps it's because she's been quite sexualised.

Modifié par centauri2002, 18 avril 2011 - 03:10 .

[DaeJi]

Abramis brama wrote...



Mass effect is not real.

Neither is the world you live in. In fact, you are not real. My reality, my facts.

Am I talking to someone?

[Siansonea]

The key to a successful MaleShep playthrough is to make him sexay. Facial design is key. I've made a few ManSheps that are dreamy, and they're worth playing even with Mark Meer's Vulcan-on-Ambien delivery style. You have to make him kind of rugged, and give him piercing eyes and heavy eyebrows. ManShep can look like a doofus very easily if you're not careful.

Oh, and the Asari Aren't Female trope has come back around I see. Asari have babies. That makes them female. Mono-gendered does not mean non-gendered. The lack of males in the asari species doesn't make them any less female. Aesthetic considerations aside, they're most emphatically female because they are capable of making more asari. And no, they're not hermaphrodites or anything like that, because their species lacks any need for specialized fertilization structures, thanks to the asari's natural biotic affinity and the ability to parent a child with virtually any alien species or even 'a little radiation'.

But hey, if people want to believe that asari are fluffy pink bunnies I don't care.