9243 réponses à ce sujet

[javierabegazo]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Remember, folks, jumping on really obvious flamebait and grappling with blatant threadcrapping doesn't get us anywhere. Let's stay on message, as they say.

"Never try to reason the prejudice out of a man. It was not reasoned into him, and cannot be reasoned out."

THIS.
Do NOT quote Spam, and if you want to avoid a thread hijacking, simply just ignore it.

[Chuvvy]

Why not? I know gay people. They should be free to be gay in their games as well.

[MaxQuartiroli]

Eddo36 wrote...

Hm people who are not homosexuals but want to roleplay a character that is homosexual. Never heard of that before.

Here I am !

I like to play characters of every gender with every kind of sexuality.. The words "role play" means "act the role of someone".. and this could also mean to play as someone who is different from your real person

It doesn't seems to me that all actor and actress which play the role of an homosexual in a movie are homosexual, am I wrong?

However.. I'll always fight for love and for the right of gay people.. love between two people is something which prescind from their gender... Therefore I would have given my support to this topic even if I had not played an homosexual character in any of my games...

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 03 juillet 2010 - 06:12 .

[Computer_God91]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...
I don't support ******
relationships. So no, keep it out of my games.

I do. Put them in mine.
And stop buying my games, you!

Computer_God91 wrote...
Yes, I enjoyed DA. NO, I hated Zevran. I tried to be cool with him and turn him down nicely but no he keeps on trying so now *DA Spoiler?* I cut his throat when I meet him for the first time. I don't like having some elf getting pissed off at me just because I want to listen to his stories but I don't want to sleep in his tent. I don't need someone in ME where I either shoot on site or leave in my ship and pretend they aren't there because I don't want to listen to them because after I turn them down they don't seem to understand what No means.

You mean Liara?

Nope, this may sound really stupid but (as a guy) I don't mind ****** women although Liara is an alien from an all female race so i'm not sure how ****** she is because there is no males at all. wait a minute yup all asari are ****** because they are the same gender/sex/whatever. I don't care though, again I play as maleshep (and femshep once which I'll be honest i still romanced her) so I don't see that side of her except the one time.

I just made myself sound like an idiot. "I don't support homos"..."I don't care if women are gay" whatever though.

[Nordic Einar]

Echoing Javier and others - do try to avoid quoting and responding to obvious flamebait. It's beneath us.

[Wugger]

If people are like me and don't want to play gay characters, just don't pursue a gay romance. If a npc character comes onto you then there should just be an option to say "not interested" I honestly can't comprehend why people have issues about this.

[Siansonea]

Eddo36 wrote...

Hm people who are not homosexuals but want to roleplay a character that is homosexual. Never heard of that before.

"I've never heard of that before" does not equal "It must not exist". There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[Ryzaki]

Siansonea II wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Hm people who are not homosexuals but want to roleplay a character that is homosexual. Never heard of that before.

"I've never heard of that before" does not equal "It must not exist". There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

I have to agree with this.

According to some people apparently I don't exist.

[Cootie]

Now, in order to turn this back into a proper discussion:
Which one of our options do you think is best for the newly labeled "extreme other side of the fence"?
Any thoughts?

Modifié par Cootie, 03 juillet 2010 - 09:22 .

[Chippetg]

Cootie wrote...

Now, in order to turn this back into a proper discussion:
Which one of our options do you think is best for the newly labeled "extreme other side of the fence"?
Any thoughts?

I like the coloured text option. If it really bothers people, characters should only act bi/gay after you've expressed interest in them. This way, they can be 'canonically' bi, but it can be ignored.

Not a big fan of choosing the orientation at the screen though. Part of developing and roleplaying a character is expressing them through actions, not options. This was done well in DA, Jade Empire and the first ME, in my opinion.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Wugger wrote...

If people are like me and don't want to play gay characters, just don't pursue a gay romance. If a npc character comes onto you then there should just be an option to say "not interested" I honestly can't comprehend why people have issues about this.

This. It's the rare romance that doesn't have an obvious out a la "I'm not interested in you that way" or similar. I think a general clarity would be nice - and since it's unlikely ME will go the way of restoring full line 'this is what I'm going to say' dialogue, I think coloured text for 'yes' and a clear, short 'No' (no matter what it ended up sounding like from Shep) would be ideal.

Of course, I'm also in favour of restoring the "I'm only interested in men/women" dialogue for Shep, even if there ends up being no s/s LI. Hard to get more unambiguous than that.

[Thajocoth]

Eddo36 wrote...

Hm people who are not homosexuals but want to roleplay a character that is homosexual. Never heard of that before.

Well, sexuality isn't a simple "yes/no".  People aren't merely straight, bi or gay.  A person can be, for example, 75% straight and 25% gay.  (There's some sort of scale for this, I don't know too much of the details.)  Being 100% in either direction is almost impossible.  I'm probably about 95% straight, which is as straight as one can realistically be without actually turning themselves off.  Most striaght men are merely more striaght than not, and with the current society, choose to ignore whatever percentage isn't.  For women, it's more acceptable to be gay, so there are a lot more openly bi women.  I only know a few women who aren't bi.  That should give a bit of an estimate as to how many straight men are merely mostly striaght, and might actually play through such options.

Also, you mention gay men's minds being like straight women's minds.  Minds are minds.  They're really not as different as people think.  Human minds are similar to human minds, all around.  Anyone with decent knowledge of how the brain works knows this, but I don't want to get too far off topic, so I'll summarize:  There are a few instincts in what's called the "old brain", such as the needs to eat & breathe, sexuality, reactions to pain and a few emotions.  The "new brain" handles everything else, all of which is learned.  It's what creates complexity and intelligence and separates us from, say, ants.  Most animals have both, especially mammals, but for most, the "new brain" is comparitively a lot smaller than ours, leaving a higher dependence on instincts.

Would I play gay options?  I don't personally find polygons to be sexual in any way, no matter how they're arranged & I'm a completionist.  I'll most likely play any options they put in the game.

I'm against censoring games.  So if the reason not to have it is censorship, then I would be against not having it.  If it's not a censorship issue, then I don't care either way.

Modifié par Thajocoth, 03 juillet 2010 - 10:05 .

[Siansonea]

Thajocoth wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Hm people who are not homosexuals but want to roleplay a character that is homosexual. Never heard of that before.

Well, sexuality isn't a simple "yes/no".  People aren't merely straight, bi or gay.  A person can be, for example, 75% straight and 25% gay.  (There's some sort of scale for this, I don't know too much of the details.)  Being 100% in either direction is almost impossible.  I'm probably about 95% straight, which is as straight as one can realistically be without actually turning themselves off.  Most striaght men are merely more striaght than not, and with the current society, choose to ignore whatever percentage isn't.  For women, it's more acceptable to be gay, so there are a lot more openly bi women.  I only know a few women who aren't bi.  That should give a bit of an estimate as to how many straight men are merely mostly striaght, and might actually play through such options.

Also, you mention gay men's minds being like straight women's minds.  Minds are minds.  They're really not as different as people think.  Human minds are similar to human minds, all around.  Anyone with decent knowledge of how the brain works knows this, but I don't want to get too far off topic, so I'll summarize:  There are a few instincts in what's called the "old brain", such as the needs to eat & breathe, sexuality, reactions to pain and a few emotions.  The "new brain" handles everything else, all of which is learned.  It's what creates complexity and intelligence and separates us from, say, ants.  Most animals have both, especially mammals, but for most, the "new brain" is comparitively a lot smaller than ours, leaving a higher dependence on instincts.

Would I play gay options?  I don't personally find polygons to be sexual in any way, no matter how they're arranged & I'm a completionist.  I'll most likely play any options they put in the game.

I'm against censoring games.  So if the reason not to have it is censorship, then I would be against not having it.  If it's not a censorship issue, then I don't care either way.

Well said!

[Eddo36]

Siansonea II wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Hm people who are not homosexuals but want to roleplay a character that is homosexual. Never heard of that before.

"I've never heard of that before" does not equal "It must not exist". There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

There are some things that cannot exist. Example- in a homosexual's case- heaven can't exist, only earth, Horatio. You only have to think a little bit about it. What also can't exist is a straight man who occasionally likes gay sex. What CAN exist however, is a state of denial.

But wait, it's okay because it's only role-playing.

Thajocoth wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Hm people who are not homosexuals but want to roleplay a character that is homosexual. Never heard of that before.

Well, sexuality isn't a simple "yes/no".  People aren't merely straight, bi or gay.  A person can be, for example, 75% straight and 25% gay.  (There's some sort of scale for this, I don't know too much of the details.)  Being 100% in either direction is almost impossible.  I'm probably about 95% straight, which is as straight as one can realistically be without actually turning themselves off.  Most striaght men are merely more striaght than not, and with the current society, choose to ignore whatever percentage isn't.  For women, it's more acceptable to be gay, so there are a lot more openly bi women.  I only know a few women who aren't bi.  That should give a bit of an estimate as to how many straight men are merely mostly striaght, and might actually play through such options.

I respect your theory that everyone is bi. It is pretty interesting and something to ponder. I assume the definition of straight would simply mean you won't bang another man without some level of coercion (eg- money, compromise, raped) due to the fact that you will be unable to get hard while intimately with said same-gender person, unless under the influence of something alien to your mind (eg- alcohol, drugs).

Also, you mention gay men's minds being like straight women's minds.  Minds are minds.  They're really not as different as people think.  Human minds are similar to human minds, all around.  Anyone with decent knowledge of how the brain works knows this, but I don't want to get too far off topic, so I'll summarize:  There are a few instincts in what's called the "old brain", such as the needs to eat & breathe, sexuality, reactions to pain and a few emotions.  The "new brain" handles everything else, all of which is learned.  It's what creates complexity and intelligence and separates us from, say, ants.  Most animals have both, especially mammals, but for most, the "new brain" is comparitively a lot smaller than ours, leaving a higher dependence on instincts.

Alas I am no expert of the brain so I am not qualified to comment. I was only showing a published article based on research by experts. Whether it's considered bias because one doesn't like the fact, I am not qualified to say. Am merely the messenger.

Modifié par Eddo36, 04 juillet 2010 - 08:07 .

[Nordic Einar]

This is quickly diverging off topic. I imagine most people discussing sociological research on GLBT peoples aren't actually students or graduates of sociology, so worse - it's not just going off course, but it's being dragged off course by people who don't know what they're talking about despite their good, or bad, intentions.



Bring it back around people; we made it to almost 300 pages last time. Lets at least get past 30 before we let this one get locked, kay?

[Whatever Works]

Well I was a student of Sociology (and was working a psych) but have since taken a break. Which is why I am very active in that debate (/not, I was on the old S/S thread, different Username)

However at the moment it would be difficult to administer new s/s LI's because of the overflow. If we are lucky we will get a new set of LI's (which would negate the previous, but whatever, new game new LI's). Unless they keep all the characters which would just make a whole lot, and making old characters bi, or those like lets say Mordin homosexual would seem rather fanservicy to me when this should be a little storyline to play through instead of OMG MY FAVORITE CHARACTER IS NOW AVAILABLE TO ME SHEPARDZ.

*Said overthrow instead of overflow, do not want to let those in power know of our true intentions now ^____^

Modifié par Whatever Works, 04 juillet 2010 - 08:17 .

[Wittand25]

Cootie wrote...

Now, in order to turn this back into a proper discussion:
Which one of our options do you think is best for the newly labeled "extreme other side of the fence"?
Any thoughts?

 Colored or otherwise marked text is the best solution to avoid accidental romances, both ******- and heterosexual alike.
If it is just down to avoid homosexual (read gay, because no one is bothered by blue lesbians), having the player choose Shepard´s sexual orientation in game would work. A way to do this in ME3 would e. g. Shepard having early in the game a conversation with Joker/Chakwas or another NPC, where the topic of Shepard´s past relationships come up. In this conversation Shepard can express interest in either man, woman or both (for imported Shepards answers that violate the past should not be available ). Depending on the player´s choice in this dialog the romances get locked/unlocked.
If Bioware does a Lelliana´s song style DLC for some of the companions in ME2, it would be a perfect way to integrate s/s romance for some of the LI without retconning. Like during the time you controll the NPC during the story of the DLC you at some time have the option let the NPC flirt with a member of the same sex, which unlocks the s/s romance in the main campain. 

[SimonTheFrog]

I'm happy to see that the subject is still discussed.



Too bad that there is still no news from BW concerning any ideas how to fix this embarrassing omission.



Still waiting, hoping... (not buying any other DLC than this )

[elearon1]

>>Example- in a homosexual's case- heaven can't exist, only earth, Horatio<<



In your opinion - but this is obvious flame bate so I will say no more about it than to ask you to keep your flame bate to yourself; that is not what this thread is about.



>>I imagine most people discussing sociological research on GLBT peoples aren't actually students or graduates of sociology<<



Some of us, of course, are. But last time I responded in depth as such I was asked to remove my post, so qualifications are apparently not the issue here ... which, they shouldn't be in that, as you say, delving too far into that subject threatens to derail the actual point of the thread.



Personally I like the sexual orientation toggle during character creation - just so people who would otherwise be offended don't have to be "forced into" seeing dialog options they find off putting. The colored text seems an easier solution, however, as it should require less specialized programming skill. I am not a fan of the "reveal" through conversation because it isn't really Joker or Chakwas' business what your sexual orientation is - nor, for that matter, is it the business of anyone but the individual you become involved with ... and your character may feel he or she has good reason not to spread that around. I know that I don't go around telling people, "yeah, it sure is good to be straight, did you check out the ass on that chick back there?".

[MaxQuartiroli]

I have still to understand what is the point to use colors into the dialogues...
I trust that a "yes" is a "yes" and a "no" is "no", and people don't need that "yes" would be in red and "no" in green or otherwise to make them more understandable...

If the dialogues lines are obvious you won't risk to unlock unwanted romance.. For example in Dragon Age if you want to unlock the lesbian romance with Leliana during one of the first dialogues you have to ask her if she likes or not the company of other women. It couldn't be more evident and it didn't need any color

It's obvious that this thing would be different if in the wheel of answers you had only something like "hu?" "eh?" and "what?", I agree that in that case it would be a little difficult to understand what our Shepard is going to say/do, but I trust that for such an argument they won't leave such unclear options...

Concerning the matter of the characters... As they were able to change the status of Garrus and Tali from "no romancable" to "romancable" they could also change the status for some character from "straight" to "bi-sex". And I don't trust this thing should be so unrealistic.. How many people change, or better, discover their true sexuality later in their life? Or they wait years before admit and show it to other people? I have friends both men and women who had only straight love until a moment of their life and after many years they began an homosexual relationship... I see people make outing at any age, sometimes after being married or after they had a family...Therefore if in the game I should discover that Jacob or Miranda are willing for a s/s romance I wouldn't find it "unrealistic".. I would just think that, for some reason, they just keeped this thing hidden until that moment...

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 05 juillet 2010 - 10:14 .

[Primalrose]

I think there's still a great taboo for male video game characters to be gay, particularly protagonists. Then you've got Shepard being a space marine...I believe Bioware are scared to paint him anything other then straight. Society is still largely homophobic, while lesbian romances are seen as "hot" by both sexes. It's a reflection of society, really. I am personally neutral about it, but I do think adding one would really please the fans and help sell ME3 more. 

Modifié par Primalrose, 05 juillet 2010 - 10:15 .

[ElitePinecone]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

If the dialogues lines are obvious you won't risk to unlock unwanted romance.. For example in Dragon Age if you want to unlock the lesbian romance with Leliana during one of the first dialogues you have to ask her if she likes or not the company of other women. It couldn't be more evident and it didn't need any color

It's obvious that this thing would be different if in the wheel of answers you had only something like "hu?" "eh?" and "what?", I agree that in that case it would be a little difficult to understand what our Shepard is going to say/do, but I trust that for such an argument they won't leave such unclear options...

The problem, I think, is that the dialogue choices often barely match up with what comes out of Shepard's mouth. Unlike Dragon Age, where what the player chose was literally what was 'said', Mass Effect relies on players picking up nuances and tones that are notoriously hard to read in a few words. I agree that if the dialogue was more clear there'd be no need for coloured text - but given the current system, I think it's warranted.

Assuming Shepard needs to instigate the romance, s/he's unlikely to begin by saying "Wow, you're hot." Instead, the dialogue would be something vague - but still a short phrase that could be misinterpreted by players who fail to see the intended tone. More than once I've fallen into a Liara/Kelly/Miranda/Tali romance when I was only trying to be nice. I think we'd all appreciate how difficult it is to judge the outcome of choosing the dialogue based only on a few words. The brevity of a few words in the dialogue wheel isn't nearly enough to gague whether the option is romantic or friendly - or neither. 

The coloured font is, for want of a better word, idiot-proof. It can still resonate with all the double entendres, tones and ambiguities that the current system has - but the one thing it does do is make romance dialogue completely unambiguous. We'll have no complaints from people who mistakenly romanced someone they didn't want to - same-sex or otherwise. It's an elegant and workable solution to a thorny problem - assuming the current dialogue system is taken into the third game, with its vague options and possibilities for misinterpretation.  

[MaxQuartiroli]

@ElitePinecone

You are totally right. What I was saying is just that using colors into the dialogues seems to me something like flashing out a great warning saying "Danger! You are going to unlock a s/s romance and your soul will be damned for the eternity"..
I'd really like to see something more polish than this option which seemed to me a bit exaggerate.

But if this is the only way for reach a compromise with people which are disturbed just because they could just see an option in that game that they will never pursue.... well, then I agree it could be a fine solution

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 05 juillet 2010 - 10:41 .

[Silverite]

So I am a straight girl but I do enjoy playing s/s romances, because I want to get as much from the game as possible. So I would love to have more s/s options in ME3 and thanks OP for creating this thread!

[Dryball]

"sw33ts"
The purpose of this thread is to get other people's opinions. We want to know why people *don't* want the option so that we can try to find a solution that is agreeable to their desires as well as our own. We all want the game to be the best, so why not discuss ways to make the game more enjoyable for everyone?  Please keep political and social norms out of your post."


I read the entire first post. That's all I care to read, and says the majority of the discussion without need of reading alot of varied biased and borderline hatefull posts throughout the thread. From both sides of this issue WITHOUT DOUBT.
I just thought this one quote from the OP was interesting. It states the OP wants honest open opinions, but then hypocritically denies the use of "social norms," or "political norms."


For that I have only one really simple response. The distaste for "norms" is usually what STARTS the fights. You can't have it both ways. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't make them wrong. Especially in a situation where you are, in fact, part of a "minority" group trying to push YOUR views on others simply because you don't like NOT being considered part of the "norms."


For any truely meaningful conversation to occur between the parties of either side of this issue your side(for which you seem to speak for in solidarity) must accept yourselves without personal loathing for your own "non-normal" status. Just because something excludes one minor iota of your point of life-view(sexuality has never made a person or even close, otherwise Hitler would imply all bisexuals were maniacal bastards intent on rulling the world and destroying genetic diversity, etc.) does not make it derrogatory towards you or said group, nor discriminatory.


Filling up every facet of all peoples life with your one small view, espcially if they don't agree, only breeds resentment and anger. (Why do you think that 70+% of Americans are rebelling against the government right now by voting down incumbents?)


In short, this one quote from this post points to the real problem, and in no way promotes a truely amicable solution. In fact, it flatly denies the rights of the "majority" to any say in the real question itself and simply imprints some fallacy of cooperative thought through colored text, and in-game options. Both of which imply the answer to the first real question has been found and decided to be, "yes we want homosexual relationships." When in fact it hasn't been decided based on true disscussion of said question, but by the OP themselves, and the "minority" group they represent in the issue. This is an appallingly backwards way of forcing one's view on another without due process.

Furthermore, whilst this forum may have a handful of vocal people on both sides of this issue, it in no way represents the consumers as a whole and is 100% ineffective in actually answering the aforementioned question with any amount of accurracy or fair representation at all.



Having wrote all that, seeing some attractive girl/girl scenes wouldn't be bad. Which, BTW, is what a good majority of people willing to vote yes on your polls are thinking. Not about guy/guy stuff as much as you'd wish or hope. And, I'm sure, most would be willing to cede you some guy/guy stuff in return for the good girl/girl scenes so long as we can opt out of seeing it ourselves.

Modifié par Dryball, 05 juillet 2010 - 09:04 .