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[pvt fc jenkins]

centauri2002 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Siansonea II It makes sense. Read it again.

Actually, I don't get it either. You're saying that because everyone has access to that romance, it's cheapened? So if every player rolled up a MaleShep to romance Tali, her romance would be cheapened? Because every player has played it?

What difference does it make if a MaleShep and a FemShep both have the chance to romance, say, Kaiden? They don't exist in the same play through. And they're both the same character, just different genders.

The way I read it, the character is being cheapened because their romance wasn't originally intended to be bi. It's not canon. I would liken Jacob suddenly becoming bi to Anders becoming... whatever he was in DA:2.
(Maybe not quite as severe as Anders' transformation)

Edit:
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Modifié par pvt fc jenkins, 24 avril 2011 - 07:52 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@AngelicMachinery Where does it say he turned them down?

[Ryzaki]

pvt fc jenkins wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Siansonea II It makes sense. Read it again.

Actually, I don't get it either. You're saying that because everyone has access to that romance, it's cheapened? So if every player rolled up a MaleShep to romance Tali, her romance would be cheapened? Because every player has played it?

What difference does it make if a MaleShep and a FemShep both have the chance to romance, say, Kaiden? They don't exist in the same play through. And they're both the same character, just different genders.

The way I read it, the character is being cheapened because their romance wasn't originally intended to be bi. It's not canon. I would liken Jacob suddenly becoming bi to Anders becoming... whatever he was in DA:2.
(Maybe not quite as severe as Anders' transformation)

Anders transformation had zip to do with sexuality. He was possessed. That's why he underwent such a massive personality transplant. (among other things). 

As for Jacob...I personally don't see him in ME3 as anything other than a cameo. Poor thing. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 07:54 .

[AngelicMachinery]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@AngelicMachinery Where does it say he turned them down?

He got on my ship directly after his quest.  He didn't get any turtle sex,  he also never talked about ladies.  Ergo, by Anders Logic...  he must not be into them.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@AngelicMachinery Or maybe it was because he had a mission to do with Shepard? And grunt seems to like killing above all else, so maybe that's why he never talks about the ladies?

[Centauri2002]

pvt fc jenkins wrote...
The way I read it, the character is being cheapened because their romance wasn't originally intended to be bi. It's not canon. I would liken Jacob suddenly becoming bi to Anders becoming... whatever he was in DA:2.
(Maybe not quite as severe as Anders' transformation)

I see no problem with that view if the intention was made clear. According to some sources, Kaiden and Ashley were intended to be bisexual but those portions were removed from the final release. Therefore, that wouldn't cheapen them. Then there are other characters within the squad whose sexualities aren't defined at all. They're only assumed.

Not that I'm saying just anyone should be made bisexual.

Also, I think it's the hypocrisy of the statement that boggles my mind. He's talking about characters being cheapened because an aspect has been added to them that wasn't there before but defending the Talimance. 

[AngelicMachinery]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@AngelicMachinery Or maybe it was because he had a mission to do with Shepard? And grunt seems to like killing above all else, so maybe that's why he never talks about the ladies?

Nope,  it just doesn't make sense to me.  It's obvious sexuality has to be defined by someone directly stating who they enjoy copulating with.  As such,  anyone who doesn't directly say they like men or women has the potential for being in a same sex relationship. 

[catabuca]

Hey Ramirez -- are you still composing your replies to all the replies you received over the last couple of pages? There have been some really interesting questions posed to you. It'd be a damned shame not to hear back from you on it all.

[pvt fc jenkins]

Ryzaki wrote...
Anders transformation had zip to do with sexuality. He was possessed. That's why he underwent such a massive personality transplant. (among other things). 

As for Jacob...I personally don't see him in ME3 as anything other than a cameo. Poor thing. 

A weak explanation in my opinion. Considering Vengeance only affected him while he was seeing injustices done to mages. No? (honestly I've only played through once, and did my best to rebuke Anders's advances. I just wanted a bro, not a lover.)

Regardless, I did not intend to insinuate that his transformation had anything to do with his sexuality. I was only suggesting another infuriating rewrite that seemed to go against the character we had already known.
Also, I only used Jacob as a suggestion because he is so rarely mentioned.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@catabuca Don't worry, I'll get to them, but my attention is all over the place at the moment, so please be patient.

[Maugrim]

pvt fc jenkins wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Anders transformation had zip to do with sexuality. He was possessed. That's why he underwent such a massive personality transplant. (among other things). 

As for Jacob...I personally don't see him in ME3 as anything other than a cameo. Poor thing. 

A weak explanation in my opinion. Considering Vengeance only affected him while he was seeing injustices done to mages. No? (honestly I've only played through once, and did my best to rebuke Anders's advances. I just wanted a bro, not a lover.)

No even Anders himself states directly to you that there is no way to tell where Anders ends and the demon/spirt begins. Just as they are not fully merged they are not fully separate entities.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 24 avril 2011 - 08:02 .

[Ryzaki]

pvt fc jenkins wrote...
A weak explanation in my opinion. Considering Vengeance only affected him while he was seeing injustices done to mages. No? (honestly I've only played through once, and did my best to rebuke Anders's advances. I just wanted a bro, not a lover.)

Regardless, I did not intend to insinuate that his transformation had anything to do with his sexuality. I was only suggesting another infuriating rewrite that seemed to go against the character we had already known.
Also, I only used Jacob as a suggestion because he is so rarely mentioned.

 

DId you play on the rivalry path with Anders? That's the true eye opener to how much Vengeance has twisted him. It's still there on the friendship path but its far more subtle and insidious. They are two seperate beings in the beginning. On Friendship Anders is devoured by Vengeance but he goes along with it quietly. The two of them merge into one new being. On Rivalry Anders fights Vengeance and the two of hem are fighting each other for control. They remain seperate entities in the same body. 

But making them option to a romance isn't what th DA2 devs did with Anders. Truth be told the DA2 devs turned Anders into a plot device. (Much like Morrigan which is why I always found her a bit iffy on characterization.) Opening a LI to s/s romances doesn't involve turning them into plot devices. (Well I found DA2 anders to be a plot device. *shrugs*) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 avril 2011 - 08:05 .

[pvt fc jenkins]

centauri2002 wrote...


I see no problem with that view if the intention was made clear. According to some sources, Kaiden and Ashley were intended to be bisexual but those portions were removed from the final release. Therefore, that wouldn't cheapen them. Then there are other characters within the squad whose sexualities aren't defined at all. They're only assumed.

Not that I'm saying just anyone should be made bisexual.

I agree completely. I think there is a very valid argument for some characters to be bisexual, but at the same time I think there are some characters that should remain heterosexual because the alternative would be forced and seem non-canonical. (Unless they explained it away somehow. Case, Anders. I assumed he was Heterosexual, but they explained away my misconception easily.)

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Regarding points 6 and 7 counter points about "what about Tali/Garrus?"

You might hate me for using this so many times (as I really can't find another way to put this) but,

What's done is done. Just because that happened, doesn't mean we need to go and do this.

[Cootie]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Regarding points 6 and 7 counter points about "what about Tali/Garrus?"

You might hate me for using this so many times (as I really can't find another way to put this) but,

What's done is done. Just because that happened, doesn't mean we need to go and do this.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't answer the "Why is that okay, but not this"-query a lot of us had in mind, methinks.

Modifié par Cootie, 24 avril 2011 - 08:14 .

[pvt fc jenkins]

Ryzaki wrote...

DId you play on the rivalry path with Anders? That's the true eye opener to how much Vengeance has twisted him. It's still there on the friendship path but its far more subtle and insidious. They are two seperate beings in the beginning. On Friendship Anders is devoured by Vengeance but he goes along with it quietly. The two of them merge into one new being. On Rivalry Anders fights Vengeance and the two of hem are fighting each other for control. They remain seperate entities in the same body. 

But making them option to a romance isn't what th DA2 devs did with Anders. Truth be told the DA2 devs turned Anders into a plot device. (Much like Morrigan which is why I always found her a bit iffy on characterization.) Opening a LI to s/s romances doesn't involve turning them into plot devices. (Well I found DA2 anders to be a plot device. *shrugs*) 

I've been meaning to do more playthroughs, it just doesn't have the same level of replayability as origins did. I'm having trouble motivating myself to do 2 playthroughs whereas I did about 12 in origins.
Anywho, yes. Plot device. Didn't feel like his character was treated as it should have been. They twisted him to suit the story. That said, I don't feel like they should twist ALL theME character  to suit the fans. I do feel that there are several who it just makes sense to make bi.
(I've already said that last bit, but it generally doesn't hurt to solidify your point)

[Centauri2002]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Regarding points 6 and 7 counter points about "what about Tali/Garrus?"

You might hate me for using this so many times (as I really can't find another way to put this) but,

What's done is done. Just because that happened, doesn't mean we need to go and do this.

That constitutes as a "I got what I wanted so I don't anything else to change" kind of answer. As was pointed out, it doesn't provide a why. 

Modifié par centauri2002, 24 avril 2011 - 08:19 .

[catabuca]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Regarding points 6 and 7 counter points about "what about Tali/Garrus?"

You might hate me for using this so many times (as I really can't find another way to put this) but,

What's done is done. Just because that happened, doesn't mean we need to go and do this.

Then I think what they should do is take out Tali's romance in ME3 because it's not only a waste of resources but extremely jarring for a great deal of players who see its inclusion in ME2 as a game-breaking retcon. Never too late to fix your mistakes, right?

[pvt fc jenkins]

catabuca wrote...

Then I think what they should do is take out Tali's romance in ME3 because it's not only a waste of resources but extremely jarring for a great deal of players who see its inclusion in ME2 as a game-breaking retcon. Never too late to fix your mistakes, right?

GAME BREAKING RETCON!?!?!?!
Dispite my outrage, this is not the place for this discussion. So stuff it.

[Ryzaki]

pvt fc jenkins wrote..
I've been meaning to do more playthroughs, it just doesn't have the same level of replayability as origins did. I'm having trouble motivating myself to do 2 playthroughs whereas I did about 12 in origins.
Anywho, yes. Plot device. Didn't feel like his character was treated as it should have been. They twisted him to suit the story. That said, I don't feel like they should twist ALL theME character  to suit the fans. I do feel that there are several who it just makes sense to make bi.
(I've already said that last bit, but it generally doesn't hurt to solidify your point)

Different strokes. I've played DA2 far many more imes than DAO (helps that the escape from Lothering isn't as much of a chore as Ostagar). 

Yeah that's what he was. A cute plot device but still a plot device. 

I actually agree with you. Everyone being bi would annoy me. It was fine in DA2 because there was only 4 Lis. (Heck I'm annoyed at the fact that there's 9 LIs period.) 

And yeah there are characters that to me wouldn't be suited as bi options (that said I'm not saying they couldn't work. The devs could do something I'm sure) to me though Kaidan and Ashley would be two of the easiest characters (that's not straight up new or Joker) to make open to same sex Sheards. (Not that I'd have a problem with Joker.  ) 

[Maugrim]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Regarding points 6 and 7 counter points about "what about Tali/Garrus?"

You might hate me for using this so many times (as I really can't find another way to put this) but,

What's done is done. Just because that happened, doesn't mean we need to go and do this.

Hypothetical Question

In your hand you have a magic box with a button on it.  If pressed this button will change the fabric of reality so that Garrus/Tali were never made romanceable in ME2.

Do you press it?

[Ryzaki]

pvt fc jenkins wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Then I think what they should do is take out Tali's romance in ME3 because it's not only a waste of resources but extremely jarring for a great deal of players who see its inclusion in ME2 as a game-breaking retcon. Never too late to fix your mistakes, right?

GAME BREAKING RETCON!?!?!?!
Dispite my outrage, this is not the place for this discussion. So stuff it.

I think your snark meter is borked. 

[catabuca]

Ryzaki wrote...

pvt fc jenkins wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Then I think what they should do is take out Tali's romance in ME3 because it's not only a waste of resources but extremely jarring for a great deal of players who see its inclusion in ME2 as a game-breaking retcon. Never too late to fix your mistakes, right?

GAME BREAKING RETCON!?!?!?!
Dispite my outrage, this is not the place for this discussion. So stuff it.

I think your snark meter is borked. 

Indeed. But boy did that just give me the laugh I needed

[Biotic_Warlock]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Regarding points 6 and 7 counter points about "what about Tali/Garrus?"

You might hate me for using this so many times (as I really can't find another way to put this) but,

What's done is done. Just because that happened, doesn't mean we need to go and do this.

Hypothetical Question

In your hand you have a magic box with a button on it.  If pressed this button will change the fabric of reality so that Garrus/Tali were never made romanceable in ME2.

Do you press it?

I would fall on the button "accidently" *wags fingers*
I think the romance was a sin against nature loool, i mean if BW can give into the talimancer/callibrator pressure, i don't see why there should be no male shep kaidan yumminess.

[KnightOfTwo]

Ryzaki wrote...

pvt fc jenkins wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Then I think what they should do is take out Tali's romance in ME3 because it's not only a waste of resources but extremely jarring for a great deal of players who see its inclusion in ME2 as a game-breaking retcon. Never too late to fix your mistakes, right?

GAME BREAKING RETCON!?!?!?!
Dispite my outrage, this is not the place for this discussion. So stuff it.

I think your snark meter is borked. 

I couldn't resist.