9243 réponses à ce sujet

[SorenTrigg]

Dryball wrote...
Having wrote all that, seeing some attractive girl/girl scenes wouldn't be bad. Which, BTW, is what a good majority of people willing to vote yes on your polls are thinking. Not about guy/guy stuff as much as you'd wish or hope. And, I'm sure, most would be willing to cede you some guy/guy stuff in return for the good girl/girl scenes so long as we can opt out of seeing it ourselves.

Remember, none of the romances are mandatory. You opt out by not attempting to do the romance at all. There doesn't need to be a special way to opt out of it. So, I would not worry.
And as it stands, there already *is* f/f with Liara and Kelly, as well as female Shepard being able to assert her sexuality by looking at strippers and so forth.

[Whatever Works]

omfg

*headesk*

Yes Girl on Girl SO HAWT. 

Modifié par Whatever Works, 05 juillet 2010 - 09:11 .

[Nordic Einar]

Why won't anyone think of the poor, oppressed, cisgendered heterosexual male!? How dare we uppity minority members request equal representation in media - shouldn't we just be happy with what the benevolent and all-wise majority deem acceptable for us?

Please. We have every right to request equal representation - our money funds Bioware just like yours does. Now excuse me while I play this tiny violin while you wax about how oppressed the majority is by us uppity gays.

Alright, enough of that.

Personally, I wanted to chime in on the colored text issue - I agree with some others who've stated that the colored text is a mediocre solution that doesn't address the actual problem. The problem isn't people accidentally starting romances - the problem is ambiguity on the dialogue wheel. Colored text is a sledge hammer to a carpentry nail; there are more subtle and less intrusive solutions to the problem at hand.

[Whatever Works]

The dialogue wheel is a great feature, however this is an area that gives it a problem. Bioware would have to make it quite clear your intentions, this applies to hetero relationships as well. As it stands I wouldn't mind unique dialogue based on background (which could include sexual orientation), as it least it would create more options in roleplaying.

[SorenTrigg]

Nordic Einar wrote...

Personally, I wanted to chime in on the colored text issue - I agree with some others who've stated that the colored text is a mediocre solution that doesn't address the actual problem. The problem isn't people accidentally starting romances - the problem is ambiguity on the dialogue wheel. Colored text is a sledge hammer to a carpentry nail; there are more subtle and less intrusive solutions to the problem at hand.

True, it could seem kind of overt. But, we already have the paragon/renegade or charm/intimidate colored texts. This could theoretically be handled the same way and not really seem strange or out of place.

[Dryball]

SorenTrigg wrote...

Remember, none of the romances are mandatory. You opt out by not attempting to do the romance at all. There doesn't need to be a special way to opt out of it. So, I would not worry.
And as it stands, there already *is* f/f with Liara and Kelly, as well as female Shepard being able to assert her sexuality by looking at strippers and so forth.

I never stated how, and agree with that assertion. However, The Asari species in this game is not sexually defined by any particular parameter. The closest analog would be bisexual, but due to thier reproductive abilities/methods, not entirely accurate. Kelly is not so much a romance as she is a single quasi-date in which discussion, and not romance is implied by her post-meal comments. And the stripper thing has nothing to truely do with sexuality in this game as they are the aformentioned Asari.

From my point of view those are weak links to propagate the "equality" issue as it's being perpetrated here.

[SorenTrigg]

Dryball wrote...

However, The Asari species in this game is not sexually defined by any particular parameter. The closest analog would be bisexual, but due to thier reproductive abilities/methods, not entirely accurate.

Asari have female looking bodies. You have to be attracted to females to find them attractive. Thus, if you are female and have a romance with Liara (or look at asari strippers), you are either bisexual or gay. Either way, that is same sex content for female characters. It does not matter how asari are 'classified'. They look female, that is what matters.

Dryball wrote...

Kelly is not so much a romance as she is a single quasi-date in which
discussion, and not romance is implied by her post-meal comments.

Kelly is still a female character you can express romantic interest in. That is what matters.

[MobiusTyr]

some1 needs a job

[Dryball]

Nordic Einar wrote...

Why won't anyone think of the poor, oppressed, cisgendered heterosexual male!? How dare we uppity minority members request equal representation in media - shouldn't we just be happy with what the benevolent and all-wise majority deem acceptable for us?

Please. We have every right to request equal representation - our money funds Bioware just like yours does. Now excuse me while I play this tiny violin while you wax about how oppressed the majority is by us uppity gays.

A right to request. A right to discuss.

What you DON'T have is any RIGHT to have that whatever you say, be.

Welcome to reality. There is no such thing a true equality in life. Some people have money, other's don't. There are numerous races, that in itself is inequality, usually due to stigmas and bias. Some people are male, some female, not equal(While shemale's imply a third sex of decision, it's not a true sex as the only true hermaphordidic sexes are caused by malfunctioning genes in which usually the recipient is rendered sterile as well and not a sex option to the homosapien species). Some people are smarter than others. Life IS inequality. Inequality is quite possibly the best thing about our species. It gives strength to the individual otherwise not learned.

Secondly, what does TRUE equal representation mean? It means that if only 10% of the world's population prefers homosexual relationships, then only 10% of things in the worldwide media need to include homosexual friendly content. In otherwords, the OP already stated this company has gone well ABOVE equal representation, and given the alternative sexual minority a perverbial "soapbox" with which to stand on in the last two games alone.

It also means that you don't, won't, and most definitely shouldn't, get your way all the time, simply because you belong to minority group <insert name here> and everyone else should have to walk on eggshells in order to make you "feel" better.

Not to mention I haven't seen any "poor, oppressed, cisgendered heterosexual male's" in America. I see alot of whiny, I'm entitled to more than you because I say so, self-made "poor, oppressed, cisgendered heterosexual male's." And that does, in fact, make you uppity, if you believe you are better than someone simply because you are in a minority group. It works both ways.

If you want to see REAL sexual oppression, go to an Arab state. Then, maybe you'll have something worth complaining about.

[Whatever Works]

Man you just be talkin' trash

[Dryball]

SorenTrigg wrote...

Asari have female looking bodies. You have to be attracted to females to find them attractive. Thus, if you are female and have a romance with Liara (or look at asari strippers), you are either bisexual or gay. Either way, that is same sex content for female characters. It does not matter how asari are 'classified'. They look female, that is what matters.


Kelly is still a female character you can express romantic interest in. That is what matters.

Ah, and here we have the problem. I know many lesbians, many look vaguely feminine at all. The majority of the one's I've met, in fact, have looked very masculine and manly. So if lesbian sexuality is only about looks, how do you explain this simple fact? Same goes with gay males. I've seen many couples where both individuals look extremely effeminate.

Looks, do not define sexuality. Therefor, it does not matter. It also would be somewhat offensive to state such a thing to many of these couples should you meet them personally.

Kelly is merely a flirt. I still won't count her, simply because they left the exact same dialog coding for her regardless of whether you are a male or female Shepard. She's a bit player, not unlike and extra in a movie. She has no character definition, and all you get from the flirt is a free fish feeder and some supposedly good conversation. A romance that does not make.

Anyone can flirt. It doesn't mean mutual sexual attraction. It doesn't mean mutual mental attraction. It's an ingrained method of getting whatever you want from somebody that every human is born with.

[Tirigon]

SorenTrigg wrote...

Dryball wrote...

However, The Asari species in this game is not sexually defined by any particular parameter. The closest analog would be bisexual, but due to thier reproductive abilities/methods, not entirely accurate.

Asari have female looking bodies. You have to be attracted to females to find them attractive. Thus, if you are female and have a romance with Liara (or look at asari strippers), you are either bisexual or gay. Either way, that is same sex content for female characters. It does not matter how asari are 'classified'. They look female, that is what matters.

It´s sort of Off-topic, but I agree with Dryball here. Asari are not really female and threfore not homosexual either.

[Whatever Works]

No, if you are a Human Female attracted to an Asari that is a Homosexual Attraction. For that Asari though it would not matter because of how they reproduce.

[SorenTrigg]

Again people. Mono means one. Asari are not lacking in sex.

They have breasts. They have children. They all have female voice actors. They all use female pronouns.

[Whatever Works]

Cliff notes: It's a lady

[Cootie]

Cootie wrote...

I think you are making this more dramatic than it has to be. This is not some social movement where homosexuals ask for the same rights as anyone else or somesuch.
We are merely asking for options and saying "Hey, this might be a good idea, I really wanted more of this." in the same manner as any other thread might ask for more weapons of any category.

To sir Dryball, this is what we're trying to say. The matter of social norms is a discussion that is only slightly relevant to this subject. We do not forbid you to state your views to enforce your points. We merely think that for the discussion of society as a whole is unfitting for this thread, and unrelated to the Mass Effect games.

This is a request for new content. Going on about homosexuality's role in society is off-topic. That's what Sw33ts meant with the first post.

Edit: I redirected my train of thought back on track, making sure a sentence actually made sense.

Modifié par Cootie, 05 juillet 2010 - 10:39 .

[Nordic Einar]

Dryball wrote...

Nordic Einar wrote...

Why won't anyone think of the poor, oppressed, cisgendered heterosexual male!? How dare we uppity minority members request equal representation in media - shouldn't we just be happy with what the benevolent and all-wise majority deem acceptable for us?

Please. We have every right to request equal representation - our money funds Bioware just like yours does. Now excuse me while I play this tiny violin while you wax about how oppressed the majority is by us uppity gays.

A right to request. A right to discuss.

What you DON'T have is any RIGHT to have that whatever you say, be.

Welcome to reality. There is no such thing a true equality in life. Some people have money, other's don't. There are numerous races, that in itself is inequality, usually due to stigmas and bias. Some people are male, some female, not equal(While shemale's imply a third sex of decision, it's not a true sex as the only true hermaphordidic sexes are caused by malfunctioning genes in which usually the recipient is rendered sterile as well and not a sex option to the homosapien species). Some people are smarter than others. Life IS inequality. Inequality is quite possibly the best thing about our species. It gives strength to the individual otherwise not learned.

Secondly, what does TRUE equal representation mean? It means that if only 10% of the world's population prefers homosexual relationships, then only 10% of things in the worldwide media need to include homosexual friendly content. In otherwords, the OP already stated this company has gone well ABOVE equal representation, and given the alternative sexual minority a perverbial "soapbox" with which to stand on in the last two games alone.

It also means that you don't, won't, and most definitely shouldn't, get your way all the time, simply because you belong to minority group and everyone else should have to walk on eggshells in order to make you "feel" better.

Not to mention I haven't seen any "poor, oppressed, cisgendered heterosexual male's" in America. I see alot of whiny, I'm entitled to more than you because I say so, self-made "poor, oppressed, cisgendered heterosexual male's." And that does, in fact, make you uppity, if you believe you are better than someone simply because you are in a minority group. It works both ways.

If you want to see REAL sexual oppression, go to an Arab state. Then, maybe you'll have something worth complaining about.

That whooshing sound? That was my post going straight over your head.

What are we doing, exactly, but requesting and discussing implementation of something we desire? Where are the gay commandoes, holding guns to Bioware's head and forcing the programmers to write in the gay? Because I certainly don't see them. Much like the S/S Content that does exist in game - if you don't want to hear us discuss this topic, the door is >>>> that way.

I'm not a cisgendered heterosexual male. I am cisgendered, but I am definitely not heterosexual. The supposedly oppressed cisgendered heterosexuals are the majority you spoke of, the one who's rights are being "so thoroughly violated" by minorities asking for representation. Further, where here have I ever mentioned that I feel "superior" to anyone, because I'm a minority group? I'd love for you to quote me, directly, wherein I stated us homogays are clearly superior to the obviously inferior heterosexes, because I can't recall making that position. Which, uh, makes your comments a red herring.

So because a situation is worse, somewhere else in the world, I don't have a right to want to improve the situation in which I live? Well, I certainly hope YOU never complain about ANYTHING, because I'm pretty sure you're better off than 99% of Africa. I paid for this game. I have been a loyal bioware fan for years, and I have every right to request that they make changes to their product to more closely suite my taste. They are, of course, free to ignore me. I'm also free to spend my money on other things. But the existence of violence in the Middle East doesn't diminish my right to point out things I find objectionable here.

Further, if you haven't seen oppression amongst homosexuals in Western Culture, you aren't looking very hard. Feel free to PM me, because this discussion is outside of the scope of this thread, and I will happily outline very clearly how wrong you are.

Dryball wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

Asari
have female looking bodies. You have to be attracted to females to find
them attractive. Thus, if you are female and have a romance with Liara
(or look at asari strippers), you are either bisexual or gay. Either
way, that is same sex content for female characters. It does not matter
how asari are 'classified'. They look female, that is what matters.


Kelly
is still a female character you can express romantic interest in. That
is what matters.

Ah, and here we have the
problem. I know many lesbians, many look vaguely feminine at all. The
majority of the one's I've met, in fact, have looked very masculine and
manly. So if lesbian sexuality is only about looks, how do you explain
this simple fact? Same goes with gay males. I've seen many couples where
both individuals look extremely effeminate.

Looks, do not
define sexuality. Therefor, it does not matter. It also would be
somewhat offensive to state such a thing to many of these couples should
you meet them personally.

Kelly is merely a flirt. I still
won't count her, simply because they left the exact same dialog coding
for her regardless of whether you are a male or female Shepard. She's a
bit player, not unlike and extra in a movie. She has no character
definition, and all you get from the flirt is a free fish feeder and
some supposedly good conversation. A romance that does not make.

Anyone
can flirt. It doesn't mean mutual sexual attraction. It doesn't mean
mutual mental attraction. It's an ingrained method of getting whatever
you want from somebody that every human is born with.

Really? An anecdote about "butch lesbians" to trump claims that heterosexual women would not be attracted to a female body? Why is it that I know straight men who are attracted to tomboy women? Clearly that means that straight men are not attracted to female anatomy! Looks don't matter! Personal taste applies to everyone within a defined sexuality! There is no variance! 

There are masculine women, and effeminate men, regardless of sexuality. The tastes of lesbians and gay men run the gauntlet - from Bears to Lipstick Lesbians, Butch to Queens. But there IS one unifying trait lesbians share with other lesbians - attraction to women. Breasts, female genitalia, female pheromones. Heterosexual women, by their definition, are not attracted to these things. Ergo, a heterosexual woman would not be attracted to a blue squid alien who has female anatomy, by nature of being heterosexual.

Modifié par Nordic Einar, 05 juillet 2010 - 10:40 .

[MaxQuartiroli]

SorenTrigg wrote...

Again people. Mono means one. Asari are not lacking in sex.
They have breasts. They have children. They all have female voice actors. They all use female pronouns.

And don't forget the dialogue between male Shepard and Kaidan after you rescue Liara in ME1, when they argue about who must have the priority with that "cute girl"

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 05 juillet 2010 - 10:40 .

[elearon1]

>>I read the entire first post. That's all I care to read, and says the majority of the discussion without need of reading alot of varied biased and borderline hatefull posts throughout the thread<<



I stopped reading your post after this statement. If you want to give an informed opinion on what we are discussing here it would highly behoove you to read what others have to say on the matter and how the conversation has been approached from both sides - not to mention what both sides have been asked to refrain from speaking of, not merely the anti-gay percentage.



>>Having wrote all that, seeing some attractive girl/girl scenes wouldn't be bad. Which, BTW, is what a good majority of people willing to vote yes on your polls are thinking<<



That may be what some of the men and lesbians are thinking, yes, but that doesn't cover the women and gay men. Nor does that cover the people voting yes, not in order to get some erotica in their game, but merely to see everyone given due attention and more options made available to anyone playing the game. If this thread were only about people wanting to see some girl on girl action, the vast majority of readers could simply find themselves some free online porn - there is plenty of it - and not bother themselves with taking the extra effort to vote or comment.



A few people have mentioned Kelly in this thread, suggesting that all one ever gets to do with her is have dinner ... that is not the case, you can speak with her at a later date and reveal a more involved experience. However, Kelly has never seemed like an honest relationship in the game, but more of a "this is for those of you who don't want to officially cheat" bone being thrown out there.

[Nordic Einar]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

Again people. Mono means one. Asari are not lacking in sex.
They have breasts. They have children. They all have female voice actors. They all use female pronouns.

And don't forget the dialogue between male Shepard and Kaidan after you rescue Liara in ME1, when they argue about who must have the priority with that "cute girl"

TBH, I wouldn't know. Due to the incredible voice acting of Jennifer Hale, I have only ever dabbled with a male Shepard before letting out a resounding meh and returning to FemShep.

[Dryball]

Cootie wrote...
To sir Dryball, this is what we're trying to say. The matter of social norms is a discussion that is only slightly relevant to this subject. We do not forbid you to state your views to enforce your points. We merely think that for the discussion of society as a whole is unfitting for this thread, and unrelated to the Mass Effect games.

This is a request for new content. Going on about homosexuality's role in society is off-topic. That's what Sw33ts meant with the first post.

Edit: I redirected my train of thought back on track, making sure a sentence actually made sense.

Well, that's fine, but it's simply not what was stated.

I just consider it at LEAST as offensive to tell someone you have to put in <insert content> because I'm a minority, as it is to tell someone you will never put in that same content because I'm a majority. It get's real old how equality has become to mean more for the minority point of view and damn the majority just because said minority doesn't like the majority disagreeing with thier point of view.

So while that may truely have been the writer's intention, it most definitely didn't come off as such with the chosen words. Like it or not, homosexuality, is 100% a political and social issue anymore. It should never have become one, but it is. If it had simply stayed a personal issue, we'd probably not have so many over-heated hurtful diaglogs regarding it today. As it is, it's forced down everyone's throat on a daily basis regardless of what side or opinion you are of in the matter.

Like I stated before, from a content point of view, I'd be all for the girl/girl stuff, but that's my preference. If I got that, I'd care less about any guy/guy stuff added, so long as I'm not forced to go down that path in game.

[SorenTrigg]

Dryball wrote...

I just consider it at LEAST as offensive to tell someone you have to put in because I'm a minority, as it is to tell someone you will never put in that same content because I'm a majority. It get's real old how equality has become to mean more for the minority point of view and damn the majority just because said minority doesn't like the majority disagreeing with thier point of view.

Keep in mind what we are talking about here. It is a game. We want content added that is completely optional. You may never even come close to seeing it if you don't want to. You may never know it is there unless you look for it. This is not something that is going to ruin everything for the majority. Nothing will change for the majority, most likely.
Just to try to keep things in perspective.

[MaxQuartiroli]

Nordic Einar wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

SorenTrigg wrote...

Again people. Mono means one. Asari are not lacking in sex.
They have breasts. They have children. They all have female voice actors. They all use female pronouns.

And don't forget the dialogue between male Shepard and Kaidan after you rescue Liara in ME1, when they argue about who must have the priority with that "cute girl"

TBH, I wouldn't know. Due to the incredible voice acting of Jennifer Hale, I have only ever dabbled with a male Shepard before letting out a resounding meh and returning to FemShep.

I can't know it cause I played the game with the italian dub (just curious that also in our version the femal VA for Shepard is definitely better than male VA)

But this is another proof that Liara was seen by Shepard and Kailan totally as a woman, not like "something similar"...
And I trust that no one ever tried to consider a romance  between a male Shep and Liara like something different from an heterosexual relationship between a man and a woman. Therefore a romance between fem Shep and Asari is s/s romance....

[Dryball]

Nordic Einar wrote...


That whooshing sound? That was my post going straight over your head.

What are we doing, exactly, but requesting and discussing implementation of something we desire? Where are the gay commandoes, holding guns to Bioware's head and forcing the programmers to write in the gay? Because I certainly don't see them. Much like the S/S Content that does exist in game - if you don't want to hear us discuss this topic, the door is >>>> that way.

I'm not a cisgendered heterosexual male. I am cisgendered, but I am definitely not heterosexual. The supposedly oppressed cisgendered heterosexuals are the majority you spoke of, the one who's rights are being "so thoroughly violated" by minorities asking for representation. Further, where here have I ever mentioned that I feel "superior" to anyone, because I'm a minority group? I'd love for you to quote me, directly, wherein I stated us homogays are clearly superior to the obviously inferior heterosexes, because I can't recall making that position. Which, uh, makes your comments a red herring.

So because a situation is worse, somewhere else in the world, I don't have a right to want to improve the situation in which I live? Well, I certainly hope YOU never complain about ANYTHING, because I'm pretty sure you're better off than 99% of Africa. I paid for this game. I have been a loyal bioware fan for years, and I have every right to request that they make changes to their product to more closely suite my taste. They are, of course, free to ignore me. I'm also free to spend my money on other things. But the existence of violence in the Middle East doesn't diminish my right to point out things I find objectionable here.

Further, if you haven't seen oppression amongst homosexuals in Western Culture, you aren't looking very hard. Feel free to PM me, because this discussion is outside of the scope of this thread, and I will happily outline very clearly how wrong you are.

Really? An anecdote about "butch lesbians" to trump claims that heterosexual women would not be attracted to a female body? Why is it that I know straight men who are attracted to tomboy women? Clearly that means that straight men are not attracted to female anatomy! Looks don't matter! Personal taste applies to everyone within a defined sexuality! There is no variance! 

There are masculine women, and effeminate men, regardless of sexuality. The tastes of lesbians and gay men run the gauntlet - from Bears to Lipstick Lesbians, Butch to Queens. But there IS one unifying trait lesbians share with other lesbians - attraction to women. Breasts, female genitalia, female pheromones. Heterosexual women, by their definition, are not attracted to these things. Ergo, a heterosexual woman would not be attracted to a blue squid alien who has female anatomy, by nature of being heterosexual.

I do this backwards do to ease and speed of response.

Your rant about lesbians and all that, is RESTATING exactly what I wrote for the most part. The exception being the very last two sentences. The same goes for heterosexual preferences as well. I've seen very heterosexual male/female couples and known a few, of which the role of male/female were not so clearly defined in looks. Meaning the guy looked very feminine and the gal looked very butch. Again, looks alone mean NOTHING.
 

SIDETRACK:
And phermones have absolutely NOTHING to do with the current evolution of the homosapien species in any way. That's been proven quite redundantly in science over the last several decades. The only people who fall for that crap are those suckers who believe in magnetic bracelets and 99% of all "alternative medicine." They buy all that junk for improving thier lives when , at best, thier personal belief of it's effectiveness works as a confidence booster, and/or mental block-breaker for personal mental problems like depression. Also known as the placebo effect.


As for you first rant and response, I clearly misread the "heterosexual" part, but you cleary know what I meant in the response. All the rest is just mumbo-jumbo about how oppressed you are because of your sexuality. How many jobs did you lose because of it(and not because of recent layoffs to which I'm sure you're more likely to blame on sexuality versus company downsizing)? YOU not someone you know. I happen to know that the defacto MAJORITY of homosexual males are higher paid than the avarage heterosexual male. They also have some of the best jobs. Do I consider it a product of thier sexuality? Not in the least. It goes back to what I stated earlier, inequality builds personal strength.

Oh, some superiority statements:
"shouldn't we just be happy with what the benevolent and all-wise majority deem acceptable for us?"
Sarcasm not lost, you're stating the majority is malignant idiots.
"We have every right to request equal representation - our money funds Bioware just like yours does."
You aren't requesting equality. You're requesting favoritism. Big difference. Like I stated before, Bioware has already provided MORE than equal representation given the content of thier other games. Equality in the media doesn't mean in every single game. It means in an overall percentage of all media. Favoritism = superiority.
 
So don't give me the "poor me" rhetorhic. It's lost it's luster.