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[ADLegend21]

Augoeides wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

@ Elitepinecone

Never said they couldn't or shouldn't make them when they want to in their games. I'm suggesting they are not going to make Shepard gay because they already haven't despite making games with gay LIs. They don't have to make every one of their games like that.

As for sales impact one game that is a sequel doesn't constitute hard facts. It sold strongly based on DA:O And awakening fans. It seems there is quite a lot of negativity around that game for many reasons. I might never buy it while loving DA:O my new #1 RPG. It could affect future sales of all BW titles.
.

look at the hyocrite. Me mentioning that if we don't buy games had you saying "what difference would it make" but YOU don't buy one game and it could affect the future sales. My god you must burp rainbows and butterfly, cry golden tears and your dead skins cells turn into currency. /snarkiness.

Now, there's no need for that.  Let's keep this thread civil.

I know, I just couldn't help myself that time, my mistake. *not snarkiness*

[InvincibleHero]

Augoeides wrote...

1. I'd say Shepard as a character with very little defined canon, least of which his/her romances, could hardly be called a character, and should, until player input canonizes his history in their game, be referred to as Bioware's character ideal or template. I have no qualms with the idea that people are entitled to homosexual romances is wrong, entitlement period is pretty stupid, though it's a double edged sword: You seem to assume that because there are romances, heterosexual relationships are standard protocol and therefore players are entitled to that. Correct me if wrong.

2. A fair point, and although we can make statements about the difference between race and sexuality that would just be a stupid debate, as in the Mass Effect universe all those types you mentioned are non-existent as romances. Let me throw this at you though, why should the current romances be continued after getting some screen time when so many groups are unrepresented romantically? Why do heterosexuals end up at the front of the line automatically?

Your argument here is insulting if you're only using it to back up why homosexuals aren't included in LI situations because by lumping the absence of racial and sexual minorities within the crew spectrum together you are barring them from being represented by the same argument, and if that's the case then you don't really care about those minorities, you're just using them as a tool to preserve a character and universe you agree with.

3. Resources will be taken up by any romance, resources will be taken up by really badly done assignments or missions or good ones, resources will be taken up adding features to Shepard's cabin or by allowing players to customize Shepard's face. This argument is fallacious and it demonstrates that you feel you are entitled to a higher priority on the list than other people.

4. Mass Effect WILL sell regardless of whether some people who don't like homosexuality get their knickers in a knot. Gay players who are denied a feature they would like have pulled their heads in and said: "Well this sucks, and it feels unfair, but the game at its core is still good and I will buy it", why is it so much to ask for heterosexual people who don't like homosexuality to do the same? Because there are less homosexuals than heterosexuals? I'm sure there bisexuals who have something to say on the issue.

The argument of changing a character to suit people isn't entirely unfair however when you then go on to suggest female arab Kaidan then you are just being silly. It's been established that at some point in the development of Mass Effect, Kaidan was intepreted as potentially having a same sex relationship with a male Shepard, however it was phased out for some reason. Yet, in-game Kaidan has never given any inclination to be only heterosexual only that he is at least attracted to women, it is less changing a character and more exploring an avenue that has potentially existed from the beginning.

If Shepard can be intepreted by players by the allowed variables to a heterosexual male or a heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual female and those are clear expressions of sexual preference, why then are two categories mysteriously removed? In a game about choices, having an uneven field of sexual preferences for whatever reason does not seem right, and to claim that Bioware's Mass Effect team shouldn't respond favorably to the fans feedback and cries for equal representation so that their preference is catored in an act to balance the field is just insulting.

1. Seriously if any romances are included since 90% are hetero of course that is default. Not being hypocritical as it just makes sense. Would you rather sell to a hundred or 1000? I am not against having gay LIs in games. I am suggesting it is unlikely Shepard is going to be.

2. Fair or not 90% of the potential audience is hetero. Yeah more variety would be good, but it would be suicidal to abandon any LIs they have given us previously. They might not even introduce any new LIs since they have what  9 already? Nope I am actually arguing for those not like me. I'm odd that way. Just pointing out many got a short stick and they can't please everyone.

3. Uh nope. Money spent for everyone is not money spent just for me. Even if it ultimately gets spent on somehting I don't like maybe more peole do. It is less selfish then saying spend this for a gay LI that is of interest to only 10% of the audience though likely less.

4. You do know gay content automatically makes them banned in several countries. If they are not going to lose  salesby not making male Shepard gay then why would they include it as they risk nothing?

5. Well you not only change Kaiden, but Shepard as well. That is actually two demands. A fundamental character change is just that. they are all unfair suggestions IMO. I can't argue it isn't unfair but when did BW ever promise a gay male Shepard? They never did.

I would suggest since female shep is not their marketing strategy they don't care what the orientation is. They did try to say Liara  =/= lesbian and got flack. Perhaps Kelly being a late addition to game was not meant to be female romancable either. After all I have found the text/VA to be same and can think of no differences in it. Maybe a flag was left unchecked or it intended but they aren't saying either way.

[Kaedan94]

ElitePinecone wrote...

To your first point: I agree, nobody knows what Bioware will do. All we're making is a suggestion. You're welcome to make the opposite suggestion. At the end of the day Bioware know what they're doing, hopefully, and ME3 will still be amazing with or without s/s romances.

I also agree that there's no "right" to a gay or lesbian LI. But some - many? - would really appreciate it if there were. We can even argue, reasonably logically, I think, that more diversity in romance options is generally a good thing, even for players who would appreciate the experience without being gay or lesbian themselves.

I would find it hard to accept that DA2's less than stellar performance was a result of its romances, rather than the other 98% of its gameplay that doesn't involve same-sex love interests. That's a topic for another thread, though.

See, that's the thing, and I mostly agree with you here.

There is nothing wrong with having or wanting a homosexual or bi-sexual character in Mass Effect.  But the problem is making everything with 2 legs homosexual or bi-sexual, like a lot of people are implying they should. 

If it makes sense for the character to be homosexual or bi-sexual... great!  But making all characters potentially bi-sexual just to please a small number of people with unrealistic expectations not only cheapens the characters, but cheapens the game and story.

There wouldn't be any problem if in ME3 they added a new character who happened to be gay or bi-sexual.  Cool, I have gay and bi-sexual friends too.  But what is a problem is if they added a new character as DLC just to have a gay/bisexual character.  That movtivation is shallow and insulting, and I would hope that the homosexual community would be insulted if they added a character just to be a "token gay person". 

[InvincibleHero]

ADLegend21 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

@ Elitepinecone

Never said they couldn't or shouldn't make them when they want to in their games. I'm suggesting they are not going to make Shepard gay because they already haven't despite making games with gay LIs. They don't have to make every one of their games like that.

As for sales impact one game that is a sequel doesn't constitute hard facts. It sold strongly based on DA:O And awakening fans. It seems there is quite a lot of negativity around that game for many reasons. I might never buy it while loving DA:O my new #1 RPG. It could affect future sales of all BW titles.
.

look at the hyocrite. Me mentioning that if we don't buy games had you saying "what difference would it make" but YOU don't buy one game and it could affect the future sales. My god you must burp rainbows and butterfly, cry golden tears and your dead skins cells turn into currency. /snarkiness.

How does someone not buying a game because it doesn't have gay LI = people not buying future titles because they do include it? They could always introduce gay LIs to regain your sale while they still lost anyone upset with them being included. Since 90% of the potential audience is hetero it is a forgone conclusion they would lose more sales than not putting it in at all.

BTW I might not buy it because the conbat is terrible among other things. The bi LIs don't bother me except for overaggressive hitting on and penalizing players for not initiating m/m romances.

BW is the one that has to worry about lost sales though if they ever folded I would lament it as they are my favorite dev.

[InvincibleHero]

ElitePinecone wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

3. Still no written proof of a dev saying sorry we wanted to include this but....

Here it is.

Well he admits to not working on ME1. Is he even still working for BW? I don't think his 1 post countermands what a higher figure stated publicly that Liara is not a lesbian relationship. If the lead writer for ME said it then it would be gold.

Is it correct what I read no f/f with Liara in LOtSB?

[Augoeides]

1+2. I'd just like to point out that you are seriously underestimating the heterosexual/homosexual ratio and the presence of bisexuals AND open-minded heterosexuals when you say Gay/Bi Male LIs would cater to only 10% of the audience.

3. Money spent on a Gay romance is money spent for everyone, whether they like it or not. Money spent on a straight romance is spent for everyone as well. My point is you can't rationalize away a suggestion based on a cost evaluation that ignores that everything costs something and is made for everyone

4. I am saddened by the political stance those countries have. The respect and trust of fans means almost squat in the financial long run, that's true.

5. I just explained that it isn't fundamentally changing Kaidan, it is simply exploring something that wasn't explored. All character development of existing characters, be it romantic or not can be construed as change. The way you see it, if they introduce anything new about any character then it's this big bad change, "Jack was here and did this and you didn't know it until Mass Effect 3!" "Oh no they changed her!". As I said, just because someone showed interest in women and not men up until now doesn't mean a thing, things happen and circumstances change, for all we know, Kaidan is a closet case. Revealing that in Mass Effect 3 wouldn't change him, especially if it was a pre-established fact among the design team and they've waited till Mass Effect 3 to show it.

Hell, one of my boyfriends never showed the slightest inclination to men till he met me. He didn't change into a bisexual suddenly, he just discovered something new about himself, the fact of the matter is that he was always Bisexual.

You are right, Bioware never promised a Gay Male Shepard, that's true. That doesn't mean they can't do it.

Modifié par Augoeides, 25 avril 2011 - 08:17 .

[Homebound]

Siansonea II wrote...

Kaedan94 wrote...

earthbornFemShep wrote...
You talk about quite a bit of money being invested for this? It is called an investment for a reason: because you get a return on that investment. The ROI determines a lot of business decisions. Adding some content to satisfy this market segment could positively impact the ROI. The reason I kept my DA2 preorder was because I could have a gay character. I decided to give it try, and I'm glad I did--not just because of the LI, but of the game as well. I, in turn, told my friends about the game and convinced several of them to buy it. Guess what? The DA2 dev team's decision to add that content got them several new customers.

Yes, and I'm saying the ROI would not be worth the investment.  The crowd they would be pandering to is a minority.  And the fact they didn't have the option and aren't talking about adding anything like this supports that they probably also feel it wouldn't be profitable.

Now, if they added a character that 'happened' to be gay... fine.  But if the motivation behind a new character was just to make him/her gay to satisfy the minority crowd... that's just pandering.  And could possibly damage the IP.

Ah yes, Mass Effect 3 should only be developed to please the majority of players. To that end, they've decided to dispense with things like FemShep and all the male Lis, and the majority of the female LIs as well. Ladies and gentlemen, in the interest of excluding as many 'minorities' of players as possible, I give you what the majority wants, the cover of Mass Effect 3:

if only it were for the pc..

[InvincibleHero]

Infinite Legend wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Ah, arrogance and entitlement rears its head again, as usual.

Yes in every post from the OP.

This has never been answered by any of those wanting ss relationships in the game.

1. What entitles you to demand BW change Shepard to be what you want? It is their character and they have given gay options in several of their other games. So if they wanted ME to have a male loving Shepard it would have been done. It is their character abnd their dime. They made the property to make money and can use it as they see fit.

.

LIES!!!!! I clearly remember Bioware Marketing Shepard as MY Shepard and your whole post sounds like a your angry that people want to play their Shep a different way.

PS:

Vagina(Femshep)+Vagina(Liara)= GAY SEX

Prove Liara has one.  You can't. She also is not human would making out with a female squid or dog or elephant make a human female a lesbian? Nope. Granted animals (as far as we know) don't have the intelligence of an Asari that is fictional, but it remains they are females too.  Not the same species we may anthromorphopize (hope I spelled it right ) aliens but it doesn't make them like us.

[Augoeides]

Kaedan94 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

To your first point: I agree, nobody knows what Bioware will do. All we're making is a suggestion. You're welcome to make the opposite suggestion. At the end of the day Bioware know what they're doing, hopefully, and ME3 will still be amazing with or without s/s romances.

I also agree that there's no "right" to a gay or lesbian LI. But some - many? - would really appreciate it if there were. We can even argue, reasonably logically, I think, that more diversity in romance options is generally a good thing, even for players who would appreciate the experience without being gay or lesbian themselves.

I would find it hard to accept that DA2's less than stellar performance was a result of its romances, rather than the other 98% of its gameplay that doesn't involve same-sex love interests. That's a topic for another thread, though.

See, that's the thing, and I mostly agree with you here.

There is nothing wrong with having or wanting a homosexual or bi-sexual character in Mass Effect.  But the problem is making everything with 2 legs homosexual or bi-sexual, like a lot of people are implying they should. 

If it makes sense for the character to be homosexual or bi-sexual... great!  But making all characters potentially bi-sexual just to please a small number of people with unrealistic expectations not only cheapens the characters, but cheapens the game and story.

There wouldn't be any problem if in ME3 they added a new character who happened to be gay or bi-sexual.  Cool, I have gay and bi-sexual friends too.  But what is a problem is if they added a new character as DLC just to have a gay/bisexual character.  That movtivation is shallow and insulting, and I would hope that the homosexual community would be insulted if they added a character just to be a "token gay person". 

I can say, that I am certainly not advocating for 'Everyone's Bi!', while potentially true in the strictest sense of sexuality ( My resarch into the topic makes me  think the Ambisexuality scale theory is correct) it's just not true in reality. Not every man or woman is going to be romantically involved or have sex with both genders.

Then again, of course, while in some ways unlikely that they all end up on the Normandy, I certainly know of enough Gay and Bisexual male soldiers to fill the spots of every crew member represented in Mass Effect. Just to make a point.

When I advocate for characters such as Kaidan or Ashley to be romanceable by the same gender it's not because of the same whim that one would have when expressing that a new character we know nothing about be Bi or Gay (because that's fair game), it's because Bioware established at one point that they were potentially bisexual, regardless of how the options to pursue a relationship if at all were implemented in the actual game.

[InvincibleHero]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Just read the last... 22 pages... trying to catch up. *wipes brow*

karatemanchan37 wrote...

I really don't mind - In fact, I think the FemShep-Liara romance is one of the more unqiue options in the game

I agree, even though it's not my thing, so to speak. Playing through the Lair of the Shadow Broker with femShep having romanced Liara was an amazing few hours of gameplay. Bioware really excelled themselves with the romance arc there. 

InvincibleHero wrote...

This has never been answered by any of those wanting ss relationships in the game.

snippy

1.  Nobody is claiming entitlement. Nobody. 

It's a polite request, just like every other thread that asks for ship combat, moar guns or 45 hours of Tali dancing. Bioware have absolutely no obligation to listen to anything that is said in this thread. But we still want to discuss it.

2. Again. No entitlement. If somebody else wants to make a thread for those topics, they're welcome to it. 

3. Your argument makes little sense. Based on Bioware's own metrics, only a tiny fraction of the player base uses the Engineer class. Just 19% of playthroughs (or players?) in ME2 used a female Shepard. Very few played through all the optional content and N7 missions.

50% of ME2 players didn't even finish the game!

Are you seriously suggesting Bioware cut choices just because people won't use them? That ridicules the whole point of customisation. David Gaider said more people than expected took up the Zevran m/m romance in DAO. More people than you think would use such content. 

4. Marketing is Bioware's concern. The positive media attention for DA2's s/s romances was significant. Whatever implications you draw from this are up to you. Whatever implications Bioware draws from this are up to them. We're only making a suggestion. 

1. Maybe not you but many in this thread have a dmeanding tone. Saying they provided f/f so where's our m/m is entitlement. Lots of we deserve it. Not important though.

3. Well it is skewed because they don't have my gameplay data. I always turn such "features" off. I am likely not the only one. So because someone might have had ten playthrough picking Zev they don't have my 9 where I didn't. Anyway arguing hypotheticals is kinda pointless.

4. We all know media drives sales, right? Good critic reviews means a box office movie or a best selling game, right? Nope. More people knowing about s/s in a game could mean more lost sales. It could be a dual edged sword. More publicity could cost more sales.

[Russalka]

InvincibleHero wrote...

4. We all know media drives sales, right? Good critic reviews means a box office movie or a best selling game, right? Nope. More people knowing about s/s in a game could mean more lost sales. It could be a dual edged sword. More publicity could cost more sales.

It did not seem to hurt the Dragon Age franchise.

Modifié par Russalka, 25 avril 2011 - 08:47 .

[Kaedan94]

Augoeides wrote...

Then again, of course, while in some ways unlikely that they all end up on the Normandy, I certainly know of enough Gay and Bisexual male soldiers to fill the spots of every crew member represented in Mass Effect. Just to make a point.

And the chances of every member of the crew being gay/bisexual?  Come on, there's already Kelly who is not only bisexual, but is attracted to everything that moves.

When I advocate for characters such as Kaidan or Ashley to be romanceable by the same gender it's not because of the same whim that one would have when expressing that a new character we know nothing about be Bi or Gay (because that's fair game), it's because Bioware established at one point that they were potentially bisexual, regardless of how the options to pursue a relationship if at all were implemented in the actual game.

That's fine.  And theorectically, there would be no problem if they patched in the content that allowed Ashley/Kaidan to be romancable by same sex genders.  Though to be fair, Liara is already a SS option for Femsheps, so making Ashley gay/bisexual as well would be pushing it.  Especially considering Ashley's character (she is not at all the lesbian type).

The problem is the people who feel they are entitled to have every member of the squad be gay/bisexual.  As I said, it cheapens characters if it's added just to placate.  The "tacked on" and shallow implementation of homosexuality in Anders and Fenris was just pathetic. 

Modifié par Kaedan94, 25 avril 2011 - 08:55 .

[Maugrim]

Nyoka wrote...

Kaedan94 wrote...

Especially considering Ashley's character (she is not at all the lesbian type).

hehe. Riiight.

What is exactly the "lesbian type", in your opinion?

Oh the straight guys are telling us what the lesbian type is...this should be good!

*shares*

[ElitePinecone]

Kaedan94 wrote...
The problem is the people who feel they are entitled to have every member of the squad be gay/bisexual.  As I said, it cheapens characters if it's added just to placate.  The "tacked on" and shallow implementation of homosexuality in Anders and Fenris was just pathetic. 

With respect, I don't think anybody is feeling entitled to anything. 

Those within this thread suggesting that some returning squadmates for ME3 should be available for both genders are doing so because there is precedent, intention and ambiguity. Not to be flippant, or demanding. 

If you think 'tacked-on' romances in response to fan demand cheapens characters, then you must really dislike Garrus and Tali. I mean...

Casey Hudson wrote...

one of the big ones was Garrus, people just loved Garrus and there was a love of interest in having a romance with Garrus. So we thought, "Let's try this in Mass Effect 2[/i]." If people want to have a romance with this bird-like guy with an exoskeleton, then okay.

I'll concede that in light of Awakening, Anders' romance was a little jarring. But on its own? Amazing. Anything but shallow. Exactly the sort of standard Bioware should aim to emulate, along with the excellent reunion with Liara from Lair of the Shadow Broker. 

[Ramirez Wolfen]

I want to address some things:

Accusations of trolling: No I am not. Just because I may not have explained myself clearly, doesn't mean I'm trolling. Here's the definition of internet trolling (from wikipedia):

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

I have done none of that, so I'm not trolling.

ARWA: "Anti Ramirez Wolfen Alliance"

After a recent thread where I was attacked by multiple members of the community, I have begun to assume (through paranoia) that there might be some kind of group against me, as the only people who attack me are the ones who ALWAYS do it. I'll admit, I think I'm paranoid about it. But my paranoia is not part of this discussion, so from now on, I will leave it out.

[Centauri2002]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Is it correct what I read no f/f with Liara in LOtSB?

You can't look this up yourself? It's all over the forums and a quick image search would certainly answer it for you. I don't know what you read to possibly give you this idea.



I hope that answers it for you.

As for some of the other things you've said on here... you seem to be making some things up to suit your argument. Kelly being a glitch because they couldn't possibly have intended lesbian interaction? What are you going to suggest next? Lesbians aren't real, they're just straight females that accidently fell into other women?

Also, there is no canon Shepard. One interpretation of Shepard is not more valid than another. I play my Shepard the way I want to. She has her own history, her own personality and, yes, her own sexuality. These have not been fully defined by BioWare but I've added them to flesh her out as a person. No one can stick a label on my Shepard for me. She has no interest in men and is only attracted to female characters. She is loyal to Liara. She's a lesbian. Other players' Shepards may not be. I don't care about those though, they don't affect me.

Why does it bother people how I play the game? I don't try to argue that your MaleShep is not straight.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

This is in response to an earlier conversation:

Regarding characters being "ruined:"

Exactly how are they ruined? Some of my Sheps have non-romantic relationships (as in just friends) with different characters, such as Kaidan, Garrus, Tali, etc. I'll use Garrus for this explanation.

My "canon" Shepard (who is male) has Garrus as a best friend. I would like them to remain that way. If Garrus came on to my Shepard, I would feel that the relationship would be ruined, as I would have to reject him . You may say that people can reject someone and remain friends with them in real life, but you must admit that the relationship will be damaged and/or different.

If my best friend came on to me, would the relationship would be different and would I treat him differently?

Yes, but it's not because he's gay, it's because he wants something that I can never give him.
So yes, the relationship is now different.

Also, Bioware isn't good at having a "friends only" path (my opinion).

[ElitePinecone]

@Ramirez:

I would tend to find that argument staggeringly self-indulgent, with respect. I don't mean any offense to you personally, just to be clear.

Players with a male Shepard waiting for m/m have had to reject five (count 'em!) romantic advances, six if you count Kelly, and nine if you also count the Consort, Shiala and Gianna Parasini.

I don't consider any of these characters 'ruined' once I rejected their advances. On the contrary, reuniting with Liara as a friend and loyal companion was one of the best moments of both games.

Did I feel surprised, even a little perturbed, when Shiala and Parasini made advances towards my Shepard in ME2? Yes, undoubtedly. But ruined? No. They're still great characters, despite their sexual orientation and odd fixation on Shepard. It was very easy to reject or ignore them and move on.

I understand your argument, for sure, but it's disappointing that your role-played attribution of 'a ruined friendship' to a character as a result of a hypothetical advance stands in the way of supporting more options for other players.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@ElitePinecone Bioware doesn't have a "friendship path" in their romances. What if I just want to be friends? I can't, as rejecting them pretty much ends everything (the relationship, that is), which then ruins my characters.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@Nyoka

Like I said before what happened in ME2 with Tali and Garrus =/= do it again in ME3 with Tali, Garrus, Kaidan, Ashley, Miranda, and/or Jacob.

Mass Effect has enough fan service. Do I think of the Tali and Garrus romance as fan service? To be honest, I don't know and I don't care.