9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Centauri2002]

ElitePinecone wrote...

I think it is, definitely. It's at least something that most reasonable people can agree is fair. It also avoids all the messy questions of former characters. Only the "eww, gays" crowd would seem to have a problem with it, as far as I can see. 

I think it's a fair compromise, yes.

But since this is a discussion thread I think it's also fair to explore why old characters like Tali and Garrus were allowed to be romanced in ME2 while others are not. It's also interesting to discover why people think revealing a character's sexuality ruins them. 

All these differing perspectives are intriguing to read, if nothing else.

[android654]

Why do people who want same sex li's in the game have to settle for new ones, when they'd prefer existing shipmates? Seems a bit patronizing to give them a consolation prize since team members who weren't li's in ME1 were in ME2.

[ElitePinecone]

centauri2002 wrote...

But since this is a discussion thread I think it's also fair to explore why old characters like Tali and Garrus were allowed to be romanced in ME2 while others are not. It's also interesting to discover why people think revealing a character's sexuality ruins them. 

All these differing perspectives are intriguing to read, if nothing else.

Certainly. Presenting a plurality of opinions is never a bad thing; if nothing else this thread exists to serve as a platform for debate. The discussion, if nothing else, is fascinating. 

MrGone: I agree that a united opinion in this thread is a hard thing to find. Maybe that isn't the point, or a good thing. New perspectives are generally illuminating. 

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@Nyoka ME3 is going to be released at the end of the year. We are closing in on halfway there.

Regardless of what some think about it, it's too late to start talking about getting rid of the Tali/Garrus romance.

[Stealthy Giraffe]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Stealthy Giraffe

I don't mind having new characters being gay or bi. That way, everyone gets what they want. Isn't that a good compromise?

I don't mind this either, but I don't think that existing characters should automatically be excluded from the discussion, Any arguments that mention how their characters would suddenly be ruined don't seem to hold much weight. Considering the change of heart of Tali (and Garrus), I would think you would be more open to the possibility of characters discovering their feelings at a later date (one possible reason for their sudden devotion to Shepard).

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@Stealthy Giraffe I know that it happens in real life.

I don't think Bioware (who in my opinion, aren't exactly the best writers) can pull it off. Also, there's enough complaints about fan service already. Adding to them isn't something I'd like to do.

[Kaedan94]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Stealthy Giraffe

I don't mind having new characters being gay or bi. That way, everyone gets what they want. Isn't that a good compromise?

I think it is, definitely. It's at least something that most reasonable people can agree is fair. It also avoids all the messy questions of former characters. Only the "eww, gays" crowd would seem to have a problem with it, as far as I can see. 

Agreed.  I think that's the best way to go.

centauri2002 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

I
think it is, definitely. It's at least something that most reasonable
people can agree is fair. It also avoids all the messy questions of
former characters. Only the "eww, gays" crowd would seem to have a
problem with it, as far as I can see. 

I think it's a fair compromise, yes.

But
since this is a discussion thread I think it's also fair to explore why
old characters like Tali and Garrus were allowed to be romanced in ME2
while others are not. It's also interesting to discover why people think
revealing a character's sexuality ruins them. 

All these differing perspectives are intriguing to read, if nothing else.

What does Tali and Garrus being added as romance have anything to do with having existing characters be made gay or bi?

Modifié par Kaedan94, 25 avril 2011 - 02:41 .

[Stealthy Giraffe]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Stealthy Giraffe I know that it happens in real life.

I don't think Bioware (who in my opinion, aren't exactly the best writers) can pull it off. Also, there's enough complaints about fan service already. Adding to them isn't something I'd like to do.

Do you think they pulled it off with Tali?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@Nyoka I never said that.

[MrGone]

android654 wrote...

Why do people who want same sex li's in the game have to settle for new ones, when they'd prefer existing shipmates? Seems a bit patronizing to give them a consolation prize since team members who weren't li's in ME1 were in ME2.

This is exactly what I'm talking about right here.

FAIR COMPROMISE: Add some gay characters so everyone of every orientation is happy!

THIS THREAD -

PERSON A - Not likely to happen therefore I will demand all Bi characters!

PERSON B - No, new characters are bad! I want to have gay romance with old characters!

PERSON C - Wouldn't that like break the continuity/logic/plot of the previous games (some other sensible reason why either counter compromise isn't as valid)

PERSON A & B - Even though in most ways, we are diametrically opposed to what we want to see, we both disagree with your compromise AND your refusal to agree with our two competing counter compromises THEREFORE you must hate all gay people everywhere and are worse than an army of robotic Jerry Falwells eating babies! RAAAGE!

PERSON C - *GTFO*

PERSON A & B - Yay, now we can get back to disagreeing with each other!

Do people not realize that unless even a small group like this can form a concensus, then there's like no chance that anything is going to be done by Bioware? I'm starting to see why they don't have a gay option in ME, it becomes a headache to deal with all the different complaints from fans who all demand different things. Better to keep it simple on their end.

Also as to this ludicrous notion of " people don't state their sexuality so they COULD be gay" coupled with the polar opposite defense of "Just cause they're gay means they have to justify it huh?"

 Burden of proof is on the ones who go against the status quo. Status Quo in ME is currently - Straight - most LI characters, Gay: possibly Shepard, bi - Jack/Kelly.  Anyone COULD be anything, but If you say you COULD be made of marshmellow farts given life by the king of Teflon, I want to see some proof damnit. I'm not basing this on anything other than the statistical averages on homosexual poulations by the way, gay folk make up for a very small percentage of any population numerically, so yes straight IS the status quo - FOR A MATHEMATICAL REASON.

As to why making a character suddenly become Bi when they weren't before,: Occam's ****ing Razor. If you have to add more and more things to justify your argument, you lose versus a more expedient and simpler one.

Oh wait here's a simpler and expedient point to make  - - -

Bring in a new character, who prefers people of the same gender as themselves! Maybe if everyone agreed on this, you could create a united front to present to the people who might actually listen?

[MrGone]

ElitePinecone wrote...

MrGone: I agree that a united opinion in this thread is a hard thing to find. Maybe that isn't the point, or a good thing. New perspectives are generally illuminating. 

Normally I agree, except this isn't just a "discussion" thread, there yes I'm with you. But this is a thread more charged with a purpose. Therefore true discussions are treatesd as disagreeing with "the purpose" and cannot be tolerated.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@Nyoka What I view it as is beside the point, as I only said that it might be just for the sake of not getting into whether or not the Tali romance is a retcon/fan service.

@Stealthy Giraffe I dunno, do you?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@MrGone

I'm glad it's not just me who sees this. Sure not everyone on the thread is like that, but quite a few are......

[ElitePinecone]

MrGone:

I agree with you, but it's naive to think we're ever going to get consensus in a thread like this one. Every 20 pages or so someone blunders in without reading the previous content, or even the original post, and the thread of the conversation is lost. It's messy, chaotic, unorganised and unstructured. Not at all conducive to rational arguments.

Moreover, this thread isn't strictly about pressuring Bioware for an outcome. The debate is just as important as the result. I wouldn't even be as presumptuous as to suggest the devs would even listen to any proposals - but by discussing this civilly, at least we can show there's interest in something.

Case in point: you suggest a new squadmate is a good and fair compromise. Yes, in my opinion. Probably in yours as well. But to the ideologue who sees any gay content as disgusting? To the person who sees a new squadmate as patronising or pandering, or a backdown? Or to the person who will argue for previous squadmates anyway, because in their mind it's a question of fairness and egalitarianism?

In the absence of any easy means of aggregating opinion, and with a flood of new posters coming in literally every day, and with entrenched, often viciously opposed opinions and worldviews: a discussion and a debate that is civil is something to be thankful for. A united opinion might be too much to hope for.

[Saeran]

There isn't one answer to this, we can't provide THE answer.

I personally don't care which route BioWare takes (should they choose to in the first place). I would just love one choice, whether it's a new character, old character. Seriously, either is fine for me. The problem however is this thread gets lost with new people who don't read the OP and blunder in every so often just to say "lol there's no homos in mass effect". And hence it spirals from there.

We can't say what the right option is. But just one option would be dearly enjoyed.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Nyoka, when did I say that I didn't like some of the romances? And you seem to be twisting things, no offense intended.

Also, regarding the Tali romance:

Look, whatever happened in ME2 doesn't equal to making characters bi in ME3. I think what I'm trying to say here is this:

Adding fan service and retcons (if you believe it is) in ME2 =/= adding even more fan service and retcons (if you believe it is) in ME3

[lolwut666]

Too much defensiveness on this topic. It won't ever get anywhere.

There are polls about this; vote and wait until the Holidays to see the results. If you haven't already, start a petition, too, if you think that's necessary.

No matter what's your stance, flaming and trolling can only hurt your case.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Nyoka, ME2 is over and done with. I don't know how to put it in a more polite way, but I feel that you are going to have to deal with it.