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[Ramirez Wolfen]

Nyoka

I don't think I understand how it's hilarious. Could you please tell me?

[Biotic_Warlock]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Nyoka, ME2 is over and done with. I don't know how to put it in a more polite way, but I feel that you are going to have to deal with it.

indeed, probably the only point i seem to have agreed on so far - BW never return to a previous game, unless they want to patch it and fix bugs/glitches.
But they could at least change their previous games a teeny bit... just a little touch up of one.

The question remains...

Deal... or no deal.

[Stealthy Giraffe]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Nyoka What I view it as is beside the point, as I only said that it might be just for the sake of not getting into whether or not the Tali romance is a retcon/fan service.

@Stealthy Giraffe I dunno, do you?

Honestly? No. But that has more to do with the fact that Tali shouldn't even be compatible with a human and has to risk her life to be with him. The writing in this case had to cover up this fact and it seemed forced. That doesn't mean that the writing has to be bad across the board for other potential relationships where the risk of death doesn't enter the equation..

So I've answered the question. Care to do the same?

[Gandalfzaf]

Lets Please stop being silly, the whole point of the fantasy sci/fi fabulation genre is to allow us the gamer to explore an alternative reality with as many options available to us as possible. If I can decide to kill or not kill (moral choice) then surely I can decide who to romance/do the funky with? IT is very silly to allow players to butcher, kill, maim and otherwise decimate NPC's, to steal, cheat, murder etc and NOT to choose who to get close to emotionally and physically?

Bioware, wake up and give gamers what they want, you will make more money adn we can happily live out our fantasies through realistic storytelling and free choice.

[MrGone]

Yeah OK sure here ya go, this was the old one right?

Nyoka wrote...

MrGone wrote...

Did everyone here suddenly forget that with the exception of Grunt, and proportionally Liara (though she views sexuality quite differently as an Asari I'm sure) no romancable character in Mass Effect 1 or 2 is a teenager dealing with sexual identity confusion? (...)

Susan Sontag was married to a man for a decade, and had a son with him. Later, she had a relationship with Annie Leibovitz for a decade and a half.

She was not a teenager.

Ricky Martin is another example of having girlfriends for years and then declaring he is gay, at the age of 38.

You seem to be making an incorrect assumption involving sexual identity and adolescence.

Most folks, by the time they're this age know how they swing, orientation wise. Especially if they're the type of descisive person who carries a battle rifle around and shoots people. Due to this, any argument about a character "realizing" or "discovering" that they're gay or bisexual would seem rather hollow, wouldn't it?

No, it wouldn't. It happens in real life, as I have showed you, unless you call every person who goes through it "hollow".

So again, why would anyone on Shepard's crew hide their homosexual or bisexual identity? It just wouldn't make any sense.

Because they are dealing with themselves or because they are afraid of the public reaction (this is Portia de Rossi's case) or because it's really bad for your profession if the Alliance military is like some other military we all know (Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach) or because it's just nobody's business (Jodie Foster and Anderson Cooper, for instance, are of this opinion). Again, you seem to be making too many assumptions. Maybe talking with people who have hidden their identity at some point of their life would help you understand.

Here's the thing:

EVERYONE you mention up there (with the exception of Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach) is a celebrity or artist. Ignoring the fact that plenty of celebrities know for a fact that they'r gay but only get married to members of the opposite sex for career reasons (having a beard), none of those people have military experience.

Name the number of celbrities and artist that are squaddies on the Normandy? There is Shepard him/herself, who since Shepard's player controlled can be gay/bit/straight based on your preference. There is Jack, who has desires to be a poet, and she's probably bi. But then again, Shepard's a celbrity for being IN THE MILITARY, and Jack's got obvious dysfunctional problems and kills people with her brain and was put in jail for it. Oh and pretty much everyone else has some sort of military background.

Now you may want to say that this doesn't matter.

It does.

The military is a serious commitment that doesn't appeal to everybody. It appeals to certain people of a certain type of character. Part of the character that military likes to mold is a certain degree of confidence in one's self (after all if you don't have confidence in yourself, no one else will). This is why they break you down to build you back up. The point is - people who've spent even a few years in the military - they generally aren't a type of person confused about what they want or who they are. If they were when they joined, that stuff is gone by the time they left.

Oh and Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach? He was in the military and knew he was gay. He wasn't questioning it or wondering about it, which I think is kind of making my point for me on this.

As to why they would hide it from a legal/military reason- why? You seither electively edited my post or it was in one of my earlier ones so you missed the part about how I doubt the military or anyone in citadel space would ever possibly care about homosexuality. It's kind of silly to think otherwise. There would be no "public reaction".  As for, the Foster thing . . .

Yeah fine, no one need say anything. Sure. No one would need to say anything. But as I've said before, SEVERAL CHARACTERS HAVE. And this is about arguing for characters to suddenly change their known identity as a possibility. For example, would Jacob be able to become a datable option in ME3 for aa male Shep? We know he dated Miranda, so then yeah, wouldn't that be something that needs justification. It's not like that isn't part of his backstory. It is.

"You seem to be making an incorrect assumption involving sexual identity and adolescence."

No not an incorrect one. This is where the majority of people figure out where they learn which way they swing. Gay and straight. By the time people are in their mid twenties they usually know. The post you were responding to by the way, I was pointing out that everyone in ME is in their mid thirties.

"No, it wouldn't. It happens in real life, as I have showed you, unless you call every person who goes through it "hollow".

That's putting my words out of context. It would be "hollow" for the argument itself and you're trying to make it seem like I'm saying it about a bunch of people you don't know either just so you can get pissed.

"Again, you seem to be making too many assumptions. Maybe talking with
people who have hidden their identity at some point of their life would
help you understand."

Actually I'm making few assumptions or at least no more than anyone on a board based almost entirely on SPECULATION. I do try to mostly make hypotheses based off of empirical data though. If you want to claim they're the same then we have nothing further to talk about as then  you don't appear to get how science works.
I find your statement here ironic by the way, because in one sentence you accuse me of making assumptions before you make a HUGE one about me. You know nothing of my personal history, personality or beliefs.

So there, I answered your mostly accusatory post tjat implied more than one baseless negative implication about my character.

Why didn't I respond to it before - it was a mostly accusatory post that made more than one baseless negative implication about my character.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Gandalfzaf wrote...

Lets Please stop being silly, the whole point of the fantasy sci/fi fabulation genre is to allow us the gamer to explore an alternative reality with as many options available to us as possible. If I can decide to kill or not kill (moral choice) then surely I can decide who to romance/do the funky with? IT is very silly to allow players to butcher, kill, maim and otherwise decimate NPC's, to steal, cheat, murder etc and NOT to choose who to get close to emotionally and physically?

Bioware, wake up and give gamers what they want, you will make more money adn we can happily live out our fantasies through realistic storytelling and free choice.

Amen.

Bolded: Dobby doesn't intent to kill, only maim or seriously injure.
... and biotic intends to romance same gender characters.

Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 25 avril 2011 - 01:56 .

[JediMB]

Oh, Maker, I'm about to get a stroke reading this thread...

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Nyoka,

No.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@Stealthy Giraffe

I almost missed your post, sorry. Also, I think I should have answered you first.

And to answer you, I think Bioware did okay with it.

[ElitePinecone]

JediMB wrote...

Oh, Maker, I'm about to get a stroke reading this thread...

I think that's the general reaction 

Can we tone down the personal responses/accusations a little?

 

[Stealthy Giraffe]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Stealthy Giraffe

I almost missed your post, sorry. Also, I think I should have answered you first.

And to answer you, I think Bioware did okay with it.

So do you think it's conceivable that they could also do ok with future character development?

[MrGone]

[quote]Nyoka wrote...

[quote]MrGone wrote...

EVERYONE you mention up there (with the exception of Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach) is a celebrity or artist.[/quote]No, everyone is not a celebrity, as you clearly stated with that guy in the military. Yet you say it's EVERYONE in all caps and everything. If you start your reply with a lie, what can I expect from you? Tell me. Besides, of course I must mention famous people so you know what I'm talking about. Who do you want me to mention, my neighbor? My second cousin on my mother's side? I use famous people so you can check up the info I give you. You could easily say I'm making up my neighbor coming out, but you can't deny anyone of the people I mentioned, famous or not.

[quote]Ignoring the fact that plenty of celebrities know for a fact that they'r gay but only get married to members of the opposite sex for career reasons (having a beard), none of those people have military experience.[/quote]Dude, this is another lie. One of the guys I mentioned have military experience. Why do you lie so much? There are plenty of people who have come out recently with the all DADT kerfuffle. Lt. Dan Choi is another one. Hey look, a lieutenant, like Kaidan!

[quote]Name the number of celbrities and artist that are squaddies on the Normandy?[/quote]
Your point was that coming out is something about insecure teenagers, not about military experience or what jobs people have. Why do you move the goalposts? Anyway, it doesn't matter, I have given you two examples of military guys coming out. Hey look, another one. Oh my God, apparently there are a million gay veterans. But I'm not worried, I'm sure you will find a way to dishonor and demean these people, too. *reads the two following paragraphs* Oh no, you already did, didn't you.

[quote]Oh and Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach? He was in the military and knew he was gay. He wasn't questioning it or wondering about it, which I think is kind of making my point for me on this.[/quote]Kaidan knows it, too. You don't know it. We are talking about coming out. Do you even know what coming out of the closet means? It means letting the rest of the world know that you are gay. It means stop hiding, and that's what that guy did.

[quote]As to why they would hide it from a legal/military reason- why? You seither electively edited my post or it was in one of my earlier ones so you missed the part about how I doubt the military or anyone in citadel space would ever possibly care about homosexuality. It's kind of silly to think otherwise. There would be no "public reaction".[/quote]Fine, then Kaidan can be gay and there's nothing wrong with that. No public reaction, no problem of any kind. Wonderful. We agree on this.

[quote]Yeah fine, no one need say anything. Sure. No one would need to say anything. But as I've said before, SEVERAL CHARACTERS HAVE. And this is about arguing for characters to suddenly change their known identity as a possibility.[/quote]

[quote]For example, would Jacob be able to become a datable option in ME3 for aa male Shep? We know he dated Miranda, so then yeah, wouldn't that be something that needs justification. It's not like that isn't part of his backstory. It is.[/quote]
Just as Sontag's husband was part of her backstory or Wanda Sykes's husband was part of her backstory. Of course it needs justification. That justification will be that they have come out. They will explain why did they do it when you talk to them, the same way real people do when you talk to them. Have you talked to people?

[quote]No not an incorrect one. This is where the majority of people figure out where they learn which way they swing. Gay and straight. By the time people are in their mid twenties they usually know. The post you were responding to by the way, I was pointing out that everyone in ME is in their mid thirties.[/quote]Lt. Col. Fehrenbach was 40 years old when he came out. This is a real example of a military guy.


[quote]Actually I'm making few assumptions or at least no more than anyone on a board based almost entirely on SPECULATION. I do try to mostly make hypotheses based off of empirical data though.[/quote]I have given you plenty of real life examples (check up that article about a million gay veterans, although I'm sure all of them are unworthy. No doubt.), including people in the military who are not teenagers, and you have dismissed them all for no reason.

[quote]I find your statement here ironic by the way, because in one sentence you accuse me of making assumptions before you make a HUGE one about me. You know nothing of my personal history, personality or beliefs. [/quote]Well, I was basing my judgement in that you didn't seem to know what coming out is. If you had spoken to people who have come out, you would know what it is because they would have told you what it is. I think it's a pretty straightforward line of reasoning.
[/quote]

So do you just like to get all super judgemental and insufferable on people who actually know you or is it just when you think you're safe behind a wall of anonymity? I seriously ask because your ability to selctively pick up on information and stubbornly refuse to acknowledge an unbiased statement without twisting it into your own brain as a precieved pejorative is actually quite impressive.

I'm not going to even try to respond to your counters in this. They are insane. You don't show a grasp of how arguments work or how points are made. "Moving goal posts"? You moved them much further than anything I originally wrote way back when you wrote the - you know what.

No.

Even if you don't think you're a troll, you are using troll logic. The second I stop fighting you, you will assume victory and/or stay quiet for a while while poking some responses here or there that imply it, and you will feel self assured in your "victory" .

It is people like you who create strife. You cannot listen, and you escalate things to a point of higher tension. Know that your existence makes the internet a poorer place for you having uttered thoughts within it. I'm not saying this due to any prejudice you might want to envision upon me or any other enemy you want to create in your own mind, but purely as a reaction to the words you type.

Goodbye.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@Stealthy Giraffe

As in making them bi?

No.

[Siansonea]

Wow, the thread is really movin' today. Lots of folks in the trenches trying to preserve their favorite characters' precious exclusive heterosexuality.

And Nyoka, thanks for pointing out all the Tali stuff. Honestly, I don't know why more people aren't pointing to Tali and Garrus as a reason to not open up new romance options with existing characters. And RamWo's point about BioWare not doing good dialog in the 'friend zone' was actually a good one. There were lots of walls of text that I didn't read though, seemed like it was pretty obvious which way the wind was blowing.

There are lots of things BioWare needs to take into consideration when deciding what to do about this issue, which is seemingly becoming one of the most-discussed issues around here. Existing characters, new characters, it's good that we're talking about it, because you know those same conversations are happening in the writer's room, or at least I hope they are.

I want character continuity, a believable arc/through-line for each character. I want that more than anything, even for characters I don't like (i.e., Tali, Zaeed, Wrex). Tali's winsome damselness in ME2 was gag-inducing for me, especially since it was unavoidable. When the first familiar face you run into after the Lazarus Project was Tali, my thought was "this ain't gonna be good", and it sure wasn't. As much as I like Kaidan, Liara, Miranda, Samara, etc., if ME3 recast them in the Tali mode just to "please" me, I would be very displeased. Those characters know who they are, the writing just needs to find that through-line.

But there's a lot of unexplored territory with all of the characters, lots of new things we could learn about ALL of them. (Well, maybe not Tali, that girl DOES NOT SHUT UP and I think we know everything about her except how her suit recycles peepee and poopoo.) My point is, if one or two familiar faces was suggestible to a little same-sex flirting from Shepard, it wouldn't break the characters for me, BUT it would have to be handled with a deft touch, some sensitivity, and a whole lot of common sense. If everybody on the ship was bisexual and responded to Shepard in the exact same way regardless of their past story arc, yeah, that would be silly. But that's a separate issue, it's not the same-sex aspect of it that's bogus, it's the fact that they would be ignoring what has gone before. And that shouldn't happen again, like with Garrus and Tali in ME2.

That reminds me, since I hate quarians so much, can I have a decision at the beginning of the game to Turn Off Quarians? That would be sooooo awesome. That is a joke. :innocent:

[Cootie]

>_>



I think the problem's in the ME-writing, since it's all "ONE MAN ONE MISSION HE GETS ALL THE WIMMINS"-Hollywood-y. I actually think the Dragon Age team's handled friend-zone dialogue pretty neatly.
I think Bioware's capable of doing incredible things. It's just that they tend not to in the ME-verse, in favour of other stuff.

Modifié par Cootie, 25 avril 2011 - 03:04 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@Siansonea II

"Lots of folks in the trenches trying to preserve their favorite characters' precious exclusive heterosexuality."

Well, this is a discussion, it can't be one sided........

[jlb524]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Nyoka, ME2 is over and done with. I don't know how to put it in a more polite way, but I feel that you are going to have to deal with it.

Nah, they could always remove the Talimance in ME3 since it's cheap and relationship ruining.  This would free up resources for better things.

She dumps Shepard for a quarian because she wants to have quarian children someday...simple.  Or, they could give Tali a very small and insignificant cameo and spend more time on the other ME2 LIs, like Miranda, Jack, and Jacob, ya know, the characters in ME2 that didn't involve cheap fanservice and didn't ruin a past relationship with Shepard.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@jlb524

Actually, I wouldn't mind that if you (not directly you,I mean as in everybody) either never romanced Tali, or dump Tali in ME2, seeing as she might not be with Shepard at the beginning of ME3, she ends up with another quarian (preferably Kal'Reegar).

[jlb524]

Siansonea II wrote...
And RamWo's point about BioWare not doing good dialog in the 'friend zone' was actually a good one. There were lots of walls of text that I didn't read though, seemed like it was pretty obvious which way the wind was blowing.

This does seem to be a problem with ME, i.e., the only way Shepard can become close to a crew member is via romance.  This didn't seem as bad in ME1 (I thought the FemShep/Ash sismance was okay) but in ME2 it was horrid.  As mentioned before, DA does a much better job with friends in both games, though I still love that DA2 opened up all LIs to each gender.  Now, I can RP my PC's personal relationships however I want and both the friendships and romances felt rewarding to me b/c of this.

[jlb524]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@jlb524

Actually, I wouldn't mind that if you (not directly you,I mean as in everybody) either never romanced Tali, or dump Tali in ME2, seeing as she might not be with Shepard at the beginning of ME3, she ends up with another quarian (preferably Kal'Reegar).

Why not remove it regardless since it's full of fail and should have never been in the first place?  I think Tali leaving Shepard for another quarian in order to fullfill her duty as a good little quarian who procreates is reasonable, especially considering how much she cares about her people.

[Stealthy Giraffe]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Stealthy Giraffe

As in making them bi?

No.

That was very definitive. Care to explain why not?