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[Maugrim]

To not drag this too off topic I've posted a thread in the FFTL group that'd I'd be interested in seeing responses to from the fellow FFTL members in this thread.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

I've been wondering why it's only Tali that is mentioned, yet Garrus in the same boat as Tali as well.

The thing is (concerning Tali and Garrus romances), it happened (depending on what you believe), so to be honest, deal with it. Nothing to do about that now, and that happening in ME2 doesn't justify making characters bi in ME3.

Some of you may say "Well, this happened in ME2, that means we can do this in ME3!"

But I don't see how that makes sense. One action does not equal another. One kid gets a cookie does not mean that another kid gets it too.

To be honest, I wasn't even one of the people who was going around asking Bioware to make Tali an LI in ME2. When I played ME1 for the first time (in January 2010), I thought Tali was cute, but just okay (I liked Liara more, then) back then. I didn't even know Tali was an LI in ME2 until my second playthrough.

[ADLegend21]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I've been wondering why it's only Tali that is mentioned, yet Garrus in the same boat as Tali as well.

The thing is (concerning Tali and Garrus romances), it happened (depending on what you believe), so to be honest, deal with it. Nothing to do about that now, and that happening in ME2 doesn't justify making characters bi in ME3.

Some of you may say "Well, this happened in ME2, that means we can do this in ME3!"

But I don't see how that makes sense. One action does not equal another. One kid gets a cookie does not mean that another kid gets it too.

To be honest, I wasn't even one of the people who was going around asking Bioware to make Tali an LI in ME2. When I played ME1 for the first time (in January 2010), I thought Tali was cute, but just okay (I liked Liara more, then) back then. I didn't even know Tali was an LI in ME2 until my second playthrough.

We only mention Tali, because that's who you care about. Your sig is all Tali, so personally, I don't see the ned to bring up Garrus, although it does apply to him. you didn't study Isaac newton did you? Every action has a equal and opposite reaction, so yes one action can and DOES equal another. One character being mad eromancebale after not being so, means another character is made romanceable after not being so. One Retcon means another, and that means another and it just keeps repeating. it's science deal with it.

While you may not have asked for it due to late arrival, that doens't mean other's can ask more of the Bioware since they WANT us to ask for stuff and provide feddback. Feedback is the key to growing as a franchise/ writer/ developer, etc. and they know it. One small fan base getting it's way should equal a possibly larger base getting it's request granted.  It's only fair. That and it's an OPTION. they're not forcing people to have bisexual shepard and bisexual LI's, it's just granting an OPTION to take should you CHOOSE to.

[Centauri2002]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I've been wondering why it's only Tali that is mentioned, yet Garrus in the same boat as Tali as well.

The thing is (concerning Tali and Garrus romances), it happened (depending on what you believe), so to be honest, deal with it. Nothing to do about that now, and that happening in ME2 doesn't justify making characters bi in ME3.

Some of you may say "Well, this happened in ME2, that means we can do this in ME3!"

But I don't see how that makes sense. One action does not equal another. One kid gets a cookie does not mean that another kid gets it too.

To be honest, I wasn't even one of the people who was going around asking Bioware to make Tali an LI in ME2. When I played ME1 for the first time (in January 2010), I thought Tali was cute, but just okay (I liked Liara more, then) back then. I didn't even know Tali was an LI in ME2 until my second playthrough.

Garrus has been mentioned quite a bit actually. But, since you're a Talimancer, I think the emphasis has shifted to try and prove a point.

No, I suppose because one thing happens another shouldn't automatically happen. But there's nothing to say it shouldn't either. In fact, BioWare can learn by their handling of the Tali/Garrus changes to bring in the bisexual elements in a way that doesn't seem so jarring to a lot of people. 

People don't want a bisexual option in ME3 because Tali and Garrus were changed in ME2. They want a bisexual option because they don't have one now, particularly the MaleShep players. Why should they be excluded? There's no good reason. And why shouldn't the solution to that problem be an existing character? I haven't seen a convincing argument against it yet.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Garrus has been mentioned everytime this comes up. I truly can't understand how you don't see that unlocking Tali/Garrus in ME2 and "retconning" bi Ashley/Kaidan in ME3 are the same thing. You brought up the unsubstantiated rumor that Tali was "intended as an option in ME1" to support your position but you then codemn the option of unlocking Ash/Kaidan despite documented, datamined evidence that they were intended as bisexual LIs.

In any event, this:

Ramirez Wolfen said...

But I don't see how that makes sense. One action does not equal another.
One kid gets a cookie does not mean that another kid gets it too.

pretty much falls squarely in line with others' criticism that you've gotten what you want in the awkwardly retconned Talimance, so everyone else should just suck it up and settle.

Modifié par TommyServo, 25 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[Maugrim]

TommyServo wrote...

Garrus has been mentioned everytime this comes up. I truly can't understand how you don't see that unlocking Tali/Garrus in ME2 and "retconning" bi Ashley/Kaidan in ME3 are the same thing. You brought up the unsubstantiated rumor that Tali was "intended as an option in ME1" to support your position but you then codemn the option of unlocking Ash/Kaidan despite documented, datamined evidence that they were intended as bisexual LIs.

Not to mention devs explicitly said they never expected that the players would want to romance someone with chicken feet.

[android654]

To serve as a refresher

[AngelicMachinery]

makenzieshepard wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Garrus has been mentioned everytime this comes up. I truly can't understand how you don't see that unlocking Tali/Garrus in ME2 and "retconning" bi Ashley/Kaidan in ME3 are the same thing. You brought up the unsubstantiated rumor that Tali was "intended as an option in ME1" to support your position but you then codemn the option of unlocking Ash/Kaidan despite documented, datamined evidence that they were intended as bisexual LIs.

Not to mention devs explicitly said they never expected that the players would want to romance someone with chicken feet.

I knew there was a reason I started hearing the duck tails themesong when Tali was one the screen.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

So, you're trying to get a reaction from me by only mentioning Tali, the one I care about the most?

And the retcon = more retcon doesn't make any sense.

And what if I want my Shepard to remain friends with a character? Bioware isn't all that good at the "friend zone" thing, so I guess my relationship will be damaged. Why does it have to be damaged when we can just have new characters that are either bi or gay so that everyone has an option?

[android654]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

So, you're trying to get a reaction from me by only mentioning Tali, the one I care about the most?

And the retcon = more retcon doesn't make any sense.

And what if I want my Shepard to remain friends with a character? Bioware isn't all that good at the "friend zone" thing, so I guess my relationship will be damaged. Why does it have to be damaged when we can just have new characters that are either bi or gay so that everyone has an option?

Because some people want to romance characters from previous games, just like yourself.

[Someone With Mass]

So, just because I don't have a sig containing a certain character, you think I don't care about them? Wow. That is so shallow, even by this forum's standards.

[FataliTensei]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

So, you're trying to get a reaction from me by only mentioning Tali, the one I care about the most?

And the retcon = more retcon doesn't make any sense.

And what if I want my Shepard to remain friends with a character? Bioware isn't all that good at the "friend zone" thing, so I guess my relationship will be damaged. Why does it have to be damaged when we can just have new characters that are either bi or gay so that everyone has an option?

I felt Tali's character was damaged by the awkard and to a degree creepy romance, but hey you're happy about that right?

[Jademoon121]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

So, you're trying to get a reaction from me by only mentioning Tali, the one I care about the most?

And the retcon = more retcon doesn't make any sense.

And what if I want my Shepard to remain friends with a character? Bioware isn't all that good at the "friend zone" thing, so I guess my relationship will be damaged. Why does it have to be damaged when we can just have new characters that are either bi or gay so that everyone has an option?

You can turn down flirts and hit ons from teammates, I've done that with Tali plenty of times and we're still golden.

[ADLegend21]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

So, you're trying to get a reaction from me by only mentioning Tali, the one I care about the most?


And what if I want my Shepard to remain friends with a character? Bioware isn't all that good at the "friend zone" thing, so I guess my relationship will be damaged. Why does it have to be damaged when we can just have new characters that are either bi or gay so that everyone has an option?

You don't care about garrus, why mention him. We're not trying to get a reaction out of you, we're showing you how your favorite character was retconned in a similar fashion to what we're asking for.

Bioware actullay HAS done something good with a friendship path. Mr. Taylor, you're up!
Video proof.

Doesn't look so damaged to me, looks perfetly fine to me. Tali and Garrus mancers didn't want new options, they wanted already established Characters so why should WE want new characters when we can have already established Characters. We would like bioware to be consistent and making already established Charcters bisexual so they are open to all players, no amtter then gender or orientation is consistent.

[Cootie]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

So, you're trying to get a reaction from me by only mentioning Tali, the one I care about the most?

And the retcon = more retcon doesn't make any sense.

And what if I want my Shepard to remain friends with a character? Bioware isn't all that good at the "friend zone" thing, so I guess my relationship will be damaged. Why does it have to be damaged when we can just have new characters that are either bi or gay so that everyone has an option?

No, we're trying to make you emphasise by using something that you can relate to. It's the same reason why parents tell their children that they can't get that Barbie doll because it costs just as much as three red trucks like the ones they have at home, and not just tell them "No, hun', that's 50 bucks."
Relatable things tend to work when people open their eyes a bit.

And one retcon DOES justify more retcons. They crossed the line already. They cannot uncross it without looking like hypocrites.
And what you're saying now is that you'd be alright with this content if they did it right?
If they focused on friend zone talks rather than forcing you into a relationship whenever you were nice, this would be okay?

[Centauri2002]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

So, you're trying to get a reaction from me by only mentioning Tali, the one I care about the most?

And the retcon = more retcon doesn't make any sense.

And what if I want my Shepard to remain friends with a character? Bioware isn't all that good at the "friend zone" thing, so I guess my relationship will be damaged. Why does it have to be damaged when we can just have new characters that are either bi or gay so that everyone has an option?

Because the games are already overloaded, in my opinion, with characters as it is. Adding more takes time away from the already established ones. We don't need new characters, we need to develop the ones that already exist.

And as has been suggested before, that would easily be remedied by the player having to initiate romance dialogue. Your friendship will not be affected in the slightest.

ETA: Wow, lots of responses to this. I kind of feel sorry for you having to go over this Ramirez. D:

Modifié par centauri2002, 25 avril 2011 - 07:43 .

[jlb524]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The thing is (concerning Tali and Garrus romances), it happened (depending on what you believe), so to be honest, deal with it. Nothing to do about that now, and that happening in ME2 doesn't justify making characters bi in ME3.

Some of you may say "Well, this happened in ME2, that means we can do this in ME3!"

But I don't see how that makes sense. One action does not equal another. One kid gets a cookie does not mean that another kid gets it too.

It all depends on the reason the one kid gets the cookie and the other doesn't.   If the circumstances are all the same and one kid gets a cookie while the other doesn't, that hardly seems fair.

On one hand, you want to say that changing characters to meet a romance criteria and retconning some things is bad.   You say it ruins the relationship, ruins the game.

On the other hand, you yourself actively enjoy a romance in which this exact thing happened.  It's not just you, but many many other people (Tali and Garrus mancers).   So, obviously you find some satisfaction with this romance and can look past any retconning.  The same would apply to making Ashley or Kaidan an s/s option in ME3...some people will enjoy this, even if some feel it's retconned (even if they themselves think it's retconned).  You cannot say that one situation is different than the other just because of timeframe because, as I've mentioned before, the Tali and Garrus romances could both easily be undone to fix any awful retconning and friendship destroying evilness that plague them.

Modifié par jlb524, 25 avril 2011 - 07:44 .

[ADLegend21]

Someone With Mass wrote...

So, just because I don't have a sig containing a certain character, you think I don't care about them? Wow. That is so shallow, even by this forum's standards.

that's not what anyone said at all, we jsut chose the option he cared about most.

[ReallyRue]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

So, you're trying to get a reaction from me by only mentioning Tali, the one I care about the most?

And the retcon = more retcon doesn't make any sense.

And what if I want my Shepard to remain friends with a character? Bioware isn't all that good at the "friend zone" thing, so I guess my relationship will be damaged. Why does it have to be damaged when we can just have new characters that are either bi or gay so that everyone has an option?

They can't improve if they don't try.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

So, you're trying to get a reaction from me by only mentioning Tali, the one I care about the most?

And the retcon = more retcon doesn't make any sense.

And what if I want my Shepard to remain friends with a character? Bioware isn't all that good at the "friend zone" thing, so I guess my relationship will be damaged. Why does it have to be damaged when we can just have new characters that are either bi or gay so that everyone has an option?

Whenever anyone brings this up, they mention Tali and Garrus.

And I get what you're saying. I can appreciate that just because they made one retcon, doesn't mean they should make more.

(Just for the record, I am of the opinion that opening up certain characters, particularly Ash and Kaidan, would NOT be a retcon for multiple reasons, including those that Catabuca and others have very eloquently stated in the past - namely that none of them have positively identified as one orientation or the other.)

However, by making one, they set a precedent - and an entirely sensible precedent at that. They proved that they read the forums and take fan feedback into consideration when designing their game. Sometimes, that might make for inconsistencies. BUT! YOUR Shepard is not MY Shepard. It's entirely possible to completely ignore any inconsistencies that may arise. If you have such a hard time imagining Garrus or Tali with a MShep or a FemShep, then Shroedinger's Wrex must really break your brain.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@Cootie Now that I think about it, if it could be done where I can remain friends, and not have to worry about being forced into a relationship, yes, I think I'd be fine with that.

But the thing is, Bioware isn't really good at that.

[Jademoon121]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Cootie Now that I think about it, if it could be done where I can remain friends, and not have to worry about being forced into a relationship, yes, I think I'd be fine with that.

But the thing is, Bioware isn't really good at that.

No one is being forced into a relationship, and I've been able to turn down advances without issue.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Cootie Now that I think about it, if it could be done where I can remain friends, and not have to worry about being forced into a relationship, yes, I think I'd be fine with that.

But the thing is, Bioware isn't really good at that.

They did a pretty good job with it in DA2. It's tough to turn Anders down, but once you do, the two of you get on very well. Ditto for all the LIs.

Modifié par TommyServo, 25 avril 2011 - 07:52 .