9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Jademoon121]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Jademoon121

So basically, I provide an answer, and the response is "NOT GOOD ENOUGH!"? Now I see why this thread never actually goes anywhere.....

And because that happened with Garrus and Tali doesn't mean it should happen to everyone in ME3.

Also, I don't recall saying that making Ashley/Kaidan would be a retcon..........

It's not "good enough", it's not valid. You're beating a dead horse by repeating the same thing over and over again, just like how I have to repeate saying that we're only asking for one member of Shepherd's crew to jump borders, not the entire team. And as for the last part, you've been opposing that very notion from yesterday.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 25 avril 2011 - 09:37 .

[Maugrim]

Targy90 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@darknoon5

Whether or not Tali and Garrus were "retconned" depends on one's perspective. But that isn't the issue here.

Why do I not care about that? Like I said before, because it already happened. If I considered it problem, I wouldn't complain about it as there is nothing I could do about it, because it already happened.

I don't see a point in going on about the past, I'd rather talk about a possible future.

This is my honest answer.

Kaidan and Ashley were already written as bisexual, so it wouldn't be a retcon.  Don't ask for proof again it's been linked at least 5 times in this thread.  If anything it would be removing a retcon caused by time and money issues.  And please spare me the "I don't see it that way."  To quote the esteemed John Adams "Facts are stubborn things." and don't change just because they don't support your viewpoint.

So why do you keep dismissing them then hmmm? I wonder why....

Where was it stated that Kaiden and Ashley were written as bisexual?

I said it's been linked at least five time in this thread.  Try to look for it and if you still can find it I'll give it too you one hour from now.

[Maugrim]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...


Also, I don't recall saying that making Ashley/Kaidan would be a retcon..........

You might want to see a doctor about that, memory loss can be the first symptom of several very serious conditions.

You repeately claimed, in this thread and others that you don't want to see straight characters from ME1 retconned.  Unless you are agreeing the they are bi?!

[earthbornFemShep]

Hey all, I'm a supporter for this thread.  Lately, though, it has become a slugfest.  Please refrain from personal insults, aggressive speech, and rude or inflammatory posting. 

As is said in the original post: 
"We come in peace honestly and if you can carry on a nice, not heated, debate we all most certainly up for it."

Lately, this thread has been superheated, with a lot of snarky posting and fiery words.  I think I'm bowing out of this thread for now, and will post only in the group discussion until we've all remembered our manners. 

I'm hoping that some form of s/s content will be included in ME3... even if it is only hidden content that allows modded romances to work flawlessly in ME3.

Modifié par earthbornFemShep, 25 avril 2011 - 09:49 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@darknoon5

Should she (and Garrus) have her romance removed? No, for these reasons:

1. Too many people like Garrus and Tali and have romanced them and are expecting to finish their romance in ME3.
a. That would ****** off a LOT of people (I won't lie, including me).

2. People are expecting some kind of confrontation between the ME1 LI and the ME2 LI if you went with both.
a. If I recall, this is confirmed. Why go back on that?

3. If removed, it's basically making romancing Garrus and Tali in ME2 a waste of time.
a. This is what would bother me the most, as I hate having my time wasted (when it comes to games).

So basically, if you think that the Garrus/Tali romance was a retcon, Bioware has dug itself a hole that would hurt them more if they went back on it then if stuck with it.

[Siansonea]

Guys, trying to reason with Ramirez Wolfen is futile. We've all repeatedly pointed out the very basic flaws in his argument, while he has made no effort to refute them. He continually answers with nonsense. This is a completely one-sided argument. You can't debate with somebody who either lacks the ability to understand the point you're trying to make, or pretends to lack that ability. Now I'm not going to say definitively which is the case with Ramirez Wolfen, but those are pretty much the only explanations that fit the observed phenomena in this thread. I do know that he has a long history propagating endless and pointless discussions like these, so there's definitely a pattern of 'lack of comprehension', if nothing else. Trying to explain to someone the flaw in their reasoning, when they can't even understand the basics of what you're saying, is beyond pointless. And it's even worse when they pretend they can't understand the basics of what you're saying.

In either case, you're stuck in a loop of "do you see the precedent?/but that already happened".

Modifié par Siansonea II, 25 avril 2011 - 09:53 .

[Centauri2002]

earthbornFemShep wrote...

Hey all, I'm a supporter for this thread.  Lately, though, it has become a slugfest.  Please refrain from personal insults, aggressive speech, and rude or inflammatory posting. 

As is said in the original post: 
"We come in peace honestly and if you can carry on a nice, not heated, debate we all most certainly up for it."

Lately, this thread has been superheated, with a lot of snarky posting and fiery words.  I think I'm bowing out of this thread for now, and will post only in the group discussion until we've all remembered our manners. 

I'm hoping that some form of s/s content will be included in ME3... even if it is only hidden content that allows modded romances to work flawlessly in ME3.

Wise words. 

I can understand how it might be hard to keep one's temper in check in this thread, I've had to restrain myself on occasion as well, but it's always worth it to keep your head.

If for nothing else, then for the integrity of the debate. 

Modifié par centauri2002, 25 avril 2011 - 09:50 .

[JediMB]

Err... personally I find Ramirez' "what's done is done" attitude very reasonable, although I completely disagree with him on how romances could be added/changed (and done well) for ME3.

It's not like he has a time machine and can go back to have the Tali/Garrus romances removed from ME2 before it was released.

Modifié par JediMB, 25 avril 2011 - 09:55 .

[Maugrim]

JediMB wrote...

Err... personally I find Ramirez' "what's done is done" attitude very reasonable, although I completely disagree with him on how romances could be added/changed (and done well) for ME3.

It's not like we have a time machine and can go back to have the Tali/Garrus romances removed from ME2 before it was released.

Taken in isolation that position is perfectly reasonable.   And hell I actually like Tali/Garrus being romanceable so I don't have a biased stance against them either. He and others however don't seem to realize that we've seen him play this game before.   One can not ignore past experiences and when you take them into account the hypocrisy becomes obvious. Memories, not to mention Google's cache go way back.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 25 avril 2011 - 09:58 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@JediMB Actually, I've come to the conclusion that I wouldn't be against making current LIs bi if Bioware can make a "friend zone" option that works.

But Bioware hasn't proven they can do that in my opinion.

[Siansonea]

I do hope the kinder, gentler folks will stick around. I know I tend to be the one with the rolled up newspaper ready to hit the angry pups on the nose, but I do feel like someone needs to call BS on angry ranting every once in a while, while maintaining some semblance of dispassion and composure, of course. I try not to let it bother me when people come into the thread acting like children, but I'm not going to let people in here who are genuinely contributing to a productive discussion be bullied by people who are clearly just mad at the world and us in particular. I don't think that's fair, and while I would like a calmer, more cooperative environment too, I'm not above being the Voice of Painful Truth when I feel it's necessary. I hope I haven't offended anybody who has been doing their part to maintain the peace and harmony that should be the atmosphere of this thread.

[Maugrim]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@JediMB Actually, I've come to the conclusion that I wouldn't be against making current LIs bi if Bioware can make a "friend zone" option that works.

But Bioware hasn't proven they can do that in my opinion.

If you have truly changed your stance than I take the previous post back, goodness knows I've been know to change my mind on things.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 25 avril 2011 - 10:04 .

[jlb524]

JediMB wrote...
Err... personally I find Ramirez' "what's done is done" attitude very reasonable, although I completely disagree with him on how romances could be added/changed (and done well) for ME3.

The problem is not this argument, but it's the strawman he's made.  No one here has claimed that because one retcon was done (with Tali/Garrus) that they should do it again.  Some on the s/s side have even said that this would be a bad thing.   If a s/s person had made this claim and Ramirez was countering that, things would be fine.

In reality, he is the one that made a claim first by saying that "changing a character to fit a Shepard romance is a bad thing" and others brought up Tali and Garrus as a counter point to that (which doesn't mean they necessarily support retconning the crap out of characters for romance).  He has attempted to twist the argument into another issue in an attempt to wiggle out of dealing with this counter point.

JediMB wrote...
It's not like he has a time machine and can go back to have the Tali/Garrus romances removed from ME2 before it was released.

They don't have to include them in ME3 though, which would fix the mistake made in ME2.

Modifié par jlb524, 25 avril 2011 - 10:05 .

[Siansonea]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@JediMB Actually, I've come to the conclusion that I wouldn't be against making current LIs bi if Bioware can make a "friend zone" option that works.

But Bioware hasn't proven they can do that in my opinion.

FINALLY! Something that makes sense, that we can all pretty much agree is a good point, even if we disagree. And actually, I AGREE WITH THIS. I agree with this wholeheartedly. I believe more strongly in good friendship dialog than I ever cared about ANY romance-related content. After all, you only have one LI in the game, but you have lots of potential friends, and those interactions should be meaningful, even if you don't want to bump uglies with them.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

@makenzieshepard

Yes, I've changed my stance to that.

[Targy90]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Targy90 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@darknoon5

Whether or not Tali and Garrus were "retconned" depends on one's perspective. But that isn't the issue here.

Why do I not care about that? Like I said before, because it already happened. If I considered it problem, I wouldn't complain about it as there is nothing I could do about it, because it already happened.

I don't see a point in going on about the past, I'd rather talk about a possible future.

This is my honest answer.

Kaidan and Ashley were already written as bisexual, so it wouldn't be a retcon.  Don't ask for proof again it's been linked at least 5 times in this thread.  If anything it would be removing a retcon caused by time and money issues.  And please spare me the "I don't see it that way."  To quote the esteemed John Adams "Facts are stubborn things." and don't change just because they don't support your viewpoint.

So why do you keep dismissing them then hmmm? I wonder why....

Where was it stated that Kaiden and Ashley were written as bisexual?

I said it's been linked at least five time in this thread.  Try to look for it and if you still can find it I'll give it too you one hour from now.

That might be true, but I've little desire to comb through 277 pages.

Watched the vids on youtube, and without knowing the reason why these s/s LIs were removed, arguing any side is right seems shoddy.
The lack of these LIs points to "want to spend more time on things more people will use" and "don't want press coverage on a M/M romance" in my opinion.

[javierabegazo]

Lolwut666, I'm giving you a temp ban for so many insults. Your participation in this thread is leaning far more towards trolling than actual debate.

[Maugrim]

deleted for general irascibility

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 25 avril 2011 - 10:17 .

[Targy90]

deleted

Modifié par Targy90, 25 avril 2011 - 10:17 .

[Maugrim]

Look a cute bunny!

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 25 avril 2011 - 10:19 .

[Siansonea]

*distracted by cute bunny*

Wait, what were we talking about? *looks around in confusion*

[Ramirez Wolfen]

It seems the thread has taken a better turn................

*sighs*


That is good.