9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Bryy_Miller]

You know what's sad? If this current conversation were about blacks or asians (or women), then everyone would be agreeing to representation.

[Eddo36]

^ Or serial killers.They can't help being born that way.  Representation for that, too. Is that your point?

Modifié par Eddo36, 06 juillet 2010 - 05:59 .

[elearon1]

You know what I love? All these "there can be no compromises!" "meeting half way is an insult" and "doing any way but mine is unacceptable" comments we've seen a lot of on the last page. Rather than offer alternatives and ways to try and make the inclusion of s/s romances easier on everyone these people state it has to be all or nothing - and in that case it must be ALL.



Hate to tell people this, if they haven't figured it out yet, but part of growing up and living in a world with other people is accepting compromise even if the result isn't ideal. After all, you are asking the hetero crowd to "compromise" by not making an issue of the material being included in game, but in the same instant you refuse to accept the possibility of colored text? That attitude is outright selfish and won't likely get you anywhere.



Give a little, take a little, that is the only way to get things done ... and possibly the only way what people here are asking for will get done ... so before drawing your line in the sand, maybe you should stop to realize that line limits you as much as anyone else.



Considering how active I've been in this thread I don't think I need to restate my support for the subject - I merely think people should try to approach this rationally and realistically.

[Siansonea]

elearon1 wrote...

You know what I love? All these "there can be no compromises!" "meeting half way is an insult" and "doing any way but mine is unacceptable" comments we've seen a lot of on the last page. Rather than offer alternatives and ways to try and make the inclusion of s/s romances easier on everyone these people state it has to be all or nothing - and in that case it must be ALL.

Hate to tell people this, if they haven't figured it out yet, but part of growing up and living in a world with other people is accepting compromise even if the result isn't ideal. After all, you are asking the hetero crowd to "compromise" by not making an issue of the material being included in game, but in the same instant you refuse to accept the possibility of colored text? That attitude is outright selfish and won't likely get you anywhere.

Give a little, take a little, that is the only way to get things done ... and possibly the only way what people here are asking for will get done ... so before drawing your line in the sand, maybe you should stop to realize that line limits you as much as anyone else.

Considering how active I've been in this thread I don't think I need to restate my support for the subject - I merely think people should try to approach this rationally and realistically.

Ah yes, rationality and realistic thinking, we have dismissed those claims.

Humans aren't intrinsically predisposed for compromise or building consensus. Just look at religion and politics. Ain't Gonna Happen. Group A will always want what they want, and Group B will always want the opposite.

[Eddo36]

Correcto. It's the group that's bigger and can contribute to the most profit that winz.

[Siansonea]

Eddo36 wrote...

Correcto. It's the group that's bigger and can contribute to the most profit that winz.

Well, someday you'll be on the losing end of that numbers game, kid. I hope I have the opportunity to gloat sufficiently when that happens, but if not, consider this a pre-emptive gloat.

[Eddo36]

That was uncalled for, I was only pointing out the fact. Was stating that it's always sad to see someone lose.

[ElitePinecone]

Can we try and get back on topic, please.



To repeat: this thread is not for discussion of sexuality in society, minorities versus majorities or mathematical nonsense about sales figures. It is specifically about the best methods of broadening romance options in the Mass Effect series. If you don't want this, don't post here - make your own thread, or your own group, and argue an opposite viewpoint. At the moment far too much of this thread is veering drastically off-topic.

[SorenTrigg]

To be fair, on the topic of compromise, there are some compromises that are more out there, and can actually be kind of insulting. That is not to say, of course, that any form of compromise is terrible and insulting.

Colored text for *all* romances (including heterosexual romances) is perfectly fine in my opinion.

A toggle to turn off gay content is kind of iffy.

DLC that is released for ME3 at launch that only includes gay content is right out. But, if we got DLC for ME2 right now that included same sex romances, I would be fine (because hey, what else can we get at this point for ME2?)



But again, these are just my opinions.

[Ziggy]

How hard can it be to make clear dialogue choices so there is no need for coloured text?

[Poaches]

You know what would work for a crowd appeasement option?



pay DLC to *remove* s/s option from their copy.



Otherwise, isn't it sufficient enough to take a more proactive approach in LI's ? Something a bit harder just "keep selecting the top right option" to make someone fall in love with you. Even as benign as showing active pursuit in dialogue progression to eliminate the "accidental relationship" situation is enough. right? maybe not so much to the instant gratification crowd, but at least its gets the ambiguity out the door.



There's no satisfying the ew! unatural! crowd anyway.

[SorenTrigg]

Em23 wrote...

How hard can it be to make clear dialogue choices so there is no need for coloured text?

Well, the only way to really make it perfectly clear and unambiguous would be to write out exactly what Shepard would say, much like in Dragon Age, and that would not fit the dialogue wheel well.
Unless they do that, there will always be someone who finds the dialogue unclear.
Plus, colored text isn't so bad. It is already there for charm/intimidate.

[Thajocoth]

Em23 wrote...

How hard can it be to make clear dialogue choices so there is no need for coloured text?

Judging by 90% of the romances in ME, ME2 and DA, quite difficult.  I have to actually be mean to or not talk to anyone I don't want to romance in these three games.  That's why I want the option somehow marked, even if there are only hetero options.

[elearon1]

>>Can we try and get back on topic, please.<<



Everything that can be said on a subject which you encapsulate in one sentence has been said. You will not be able to have this discussion without people bringing up numbers, the concepts of compromise, or public perceptions ... these subjects are intrinsically tied to what you are trying here. I agree, this should not devolve into an argument over whether or not homosexuality is better or worse than heterosexuality - but you can't give people a script, tell them anything not on the script is forbidden, then say "discuss".



>>That is not to say, of course, that any form of compromise is terrible and insulting.<<



I would remove terrible from that line. Insulting? I can certainly see were even the idea that a compromise is necessary could be insulting, but that doesn't mean it still isn't the approach most likely to be effective. The fact that there needs to be a thread like this at all is insulting - but the second it was posted negotiations with the anti-same sex crowd began ... you can't start negotiations then refuse to negotiate.

[Thajocoth]

SorenTrigg wrote...

Em23 wrote...

How hard can it be to make clear dialogue choices so there is no need for coloured text?

Well, the only way to really make it perfectly clear and unambiguous would be to write out exactly what Shepard would say, much like in Dragon Age, and that would not fit the dialogue wheel well.
Unless they do that, there will always be someone who finds the dialogue unclear.
Plus, colored text isn't so bad. It is already there for charm/intimidate.

Except that knowing exactly what you're saying is still not letting you know that you're starting a romance subplot.  It's not any more obvious in Dragon Age than in Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2 when you're initiating a romance, and I've still accidently initiated a lot of romances in all three when I didn't mean to.  Just make the text pink or something.  Pink seems to be a color related to love and should be unambiguous.

[Poaches]

If you want to claim that compromise would provide the best solution; show one. Don't just say it exists and *those* people are being irrational.



If you really have to make it absolutely unambiguous you might as well force a point in the game to declare your personal interest to everyone and stick to it from there.

[elearon1]

>>If you want to claim that compromise would provide the best solution; show one. Don't just say it exists and *those* people are being irrational.<<



We've been talking about compromises for almost the entire thread, aside from the last page or two - and I will point out that nowhere in my very active place in this thread have I ever referred to the pro-same sex crowd as "those people" either directly or implied. (I have been a constant advocate of s/s inclusion)

[sw33ts]

Thank you all for continuing to post.



Okay anyways, someone said earlier that someone like Kelly/Chakwas can bring up you sexual encounters and it can be something like I noticed you've only been with women is that the only way you go and the answers cannot counter your actions so like if you've only slept females so far you can't say you're straight (which eh I kinda don't agree with cause I mean what you wanna label yourself is what you wanna label yourself but onward). How do you all feel about that? It's not as blatant as the intro screen but it seems like a pretty natural conversation at least for Kelly lol.



(someone claim it so I can give you credit in the OP)

[elearon1]

I'm not sure where you're coming from here - aside from the occasional argument about ****** vs hetero sexuality, almost everything in the thread relates to the game on some level. Compromise vs Steadfast refusal to budge relates to how the subject matter can or cannot be implemented; the number of players of each sexual persuasion directly relates to who we can expect to be playing the game, so how important this issue is; the fear of some people that they'll be forced into a relationship they aren't prepared for directly relates to the mechanics being suggested here; as does the viability of introducing material through DLCs.



We are getting to the point in this thread where I'm seeing everything that isn't "I approve of this idea" condemned as spam and off topic. You can't place a discussion on coasters and expect it to only progress in one direction ... not only is it an unrealistic expectation, that kind of approach is going to lose the interest of those who follow the thread rather quickly.

[elearon1]

>>How do you all feel about that? It's not as blatant as the intro screen but it seems like a pretty natural conversation at least for Kelly lol.<<



I addressed this earlier, I feel it is too forced and contrived ... not to mention, if your character doesn't think its the business of the individual asking, how do you move forward from there? Forcing a person to say Hetero, ******, or Bi, is as obvious as simply placing those three options on an intro screen and having a person choose. In your life if someone comes up and asks you about your sexuality do you just open up and discuss it? I tend to be more private than that.

[Poaches]

By *those* I'm referring to those who find compromise negotiation meaningless.



Given where you have two groups; one to have s/s inclusion and one to exclusion; you're left to a two outcomes. Yes or No s/s.



You can negotiation with someone who feels "as long as they don't hit on me" but not someone who feels "they are diseased animals and should not exist" or "I don't want to see any traces of its existence in my game". The line has to be drawn somewhere...



Otherwise, I'm pretty certain accidental relationship is the biggest problem for most people. but that always has been a problem with any of the LI's; and that "how come I can't get out of this relationship without being as ass?"

[sw33ts]

Well, since I went back and read the posts I missed...the only other compromise I can offer is since it seems that some people think the colored font is uh...I don't know rude/unfair, for lack of a better word.



I guess the only think left would be for bioware to lengthen the dialogue choices. but the problem with this is that mass effect is on a dialogue wheel which sort of shortens the written text anyways because it only gets barely half of the screen, bu t I guess that could be combated if the text was a marquee maybe when highlighted. Hopefully a decently paced marquee.

[Wittand25]

elearon1 wrote...

>>How do you all feel about that? It's not as blatant as the intro screen but it seems like a pretty natural conversation at least for Kelly lol.

I addressed this earlier, I feel it is too forced and contrived ... not to mention, if your character doesn't think its the business of the individual asking, how do you move forward from there? Forcing a person to say Hetero, ******, or Bi, is as obvious as simply placing those three options on an intro screen and having a person choose. In your life if someone comes up and asks you about your sexuality do you just open up and discuss it? I tend to be more private than that.

It does not need to be that blunt. A conversation with Joker can be something like the following.
Joker: I notice you keep a professional distance to your crew. (If no romance in ME1 and 2)
or
Joker: I know that you are not opposed to fraternisation. (If you import a Shepard with a romance)
Possible Answers:
Left side of the wheel: 1. right woman ( only possible female LIs for that Shepard get unlocked)
                                         2. right man ( only possible male LIs get unlocked)
                                         3. right person (all possible LIs get unlocked)
Right side of the wheel: 1. Mission more important (all possible LIs unlocked, plus paragon points)
                                            2. None of your buisness (same as above but you get renegade points)
                                

Modifié par Wittand25, 06 juillet 2010 - 08:14 .

[Poaches]

Even if the entire line of Shepard's dialogue were to be shown, I think you can agree that the "accidental relationship" can still happen. How some mundane compliment results in them suddenly starting flirty dialogue with you; or suddenly the next time you talk to them they ask you about this suddenly! relationship you had no idea you started.

Its all in the writing, and blaming the scripter.

I'd rather force all players have to, at some point explicitly saying "I want to be more than just friends" to start one. If the player has to explicitly start the relationship; there shouldn't be any ambiguity left.

Wittand25 wrote...

It does not need to be that blunt. A conversation with Joker can be something like the following.
Joker: I notice you keep a professional distance to your crew. (If no romance in ME1 and 2)
or
Joker: I know that you are not opposed to fraternisation. (If you import a Shepard with a romance)
Possible Answers:
Left side of the wheel: 1. right woman ( only possible female LIs for that Shepard get unlocked)
                                         2. right man ( only possible male LIs get unlocked)
                                         3. right person (all possible LIs get unlocked)
Right side of the wheel: 1. Mission more important (all possible LIs unlocked, plus paragon points)
                                            2. None of your buisness (same as above but you get renegade points)
                                

My only problem with that; is explaining how squadmates joining up in the middle of the game would know this information and not be a plothole.

?: I looked up your files the other day and noticed you're single!

 yea...

Modifié par Poaches, 06 juillet 2010 - 08:42 .