9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Blacklash93]

How exactly will bioware plan to discuss this issue? It's not the interviews will.

And do you think they have new arguments or may have withdrawn some? Their arguments were clearly unprepared and winged before so maybe now they'll have a real answer. They know they've upset with recent comment so hopefully they'll want to have something better to say.

 It would be great to have them throw us bone by at least agreeing with us that Shepard can be whatever the player wants (within reason, of course) and can be gay if you imagine him to be. That's really all we can hope for at this point and I'd be perfectly content with it... Is that sad?

Modifié par Blacklash93, 11 mai 2011 - 01:03 .

[Centauri2002]

Blacklash93 wrote...

How exactly will bioware plan to discuss this issue? It's not the interviews will.

And do you think they have new arguments or may have withdrawn some? They're arguments were clearly unprepared and winged before so maybe now they'll have a real answer. It would be great to have them throw us bone by at least agreeing with us that Shepard can be whatever the player wants (within reason, of course) and can be gay if you imagine him to be. That's really all we can hope for at this point and I'd be perfectly content with it... Is that sad?

That's not sad, no. I can understand where you're coming from.

I, however, don't need BioWare to tell me that I can play my Shepard as gay.  She is and that's that. It's my play through and it's my Shepard. They can only define her with what they've written into the script. Since they haven't said one way or the other on her sexuality, it's up to me to decide. That's the whole fun of RPGs. :3

[Blacklash93]

centauri2002 wrote...

That's not sad, no. I can understand where you're coming from.

I, however, don't need BioWare to tell me that I can play my Shepard as gay.  She is and that's that. It's my play through and it's my Shepard. They can only define her with what they've written into the script. Since they haven't said one way or the other on her sexuality, it's up to me to decide. That's the whole fun of RPGs. :3

It may be a little easier for you to say because a female Shep can be a blatant lesbian.

... While the guys are stuck with the "pre-defined" excuse to go on.

I'm just saying that if Bioware wants to make peace with the community here with as little effort as possible, they'll go that route and tell us that.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 11 mai 2011 - 01:11 .

[Centauri2002]

Blacklash93 wrote...
It may be a little easier for you to say because a female Shep can be a blatant lesbian.

... While the guys are stuck with the "pre-defined" excuse to go on.

I'm just saying that if Bioware wants to make peace with the community here with as little effort as possible, they'll go that route and tell us that.

True enough. To you and me (and any logical person) that is plain to see. Though there are plenty of people, even with BioWare, who say FemShep does not engage in any same sex romances in Mass Effect. That doesn't have much influence on how I see my Shepard though.

Yes, it would go a long way to bridging the gap that's forming between certain groups and BioWare. It'd just be nice to be reminding that BioWare appreciates out input and isn't ignoring us. And that we're not just talking to ourselves in here. >.>

[Blacklash93]

centauri2002 wrote...

True enough. To you and me (and any logical person) that is plain to see. Though there are plenty of people, even with BioWare, who say FemShep does not engage in any same sex romances in Mass Effect. That doesn't have much influence on how I see my Shepard though.

Yes, it would go a long way to bridging the gap that's forming between certain groups and BioWare. It'd just be nice to be reminding that BioWare appreciates out input and isn't ignoring us. And that we're not just talking to ourselves in here. >.>

We have a source countering that, though. One more credible than all others. [See: Liara's space ****** and the codex]

But if they do truly plan to discuss it, I hope it's a more productive conversation than just a rehash of their previous arguments. We need something new from them if this is going to get anyhwere.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 11 mai 2011 - 01:24 .

[FataliTensei]

Blacklash93 wrote...

How exactly will bioware plan to discuss this issue? It's not the interviews will.

And do you think they have new arguments or may have withdrawn some? Their arguments were clearly unprepared and winged before so maybe now they'll have a real answer. They know they've upset with recent comment so hopefully they'll want to have something better to say.

 It would be great to have them throw us bone by at least agreeing with us that Shepard can be whatever the player wants (within reason, of course) and can be gay if you imagine him to be. That's really all we can hope for at this point and I'd be perfectly content with it... Is that sad?

It is sad but I'm there with you

i doubt we'll even get that though, I don't want to the downer here but based off their previous answers, which in my view crossed the border from rude and into offensive, i doubt they'll back down and thats even if they're willing to address the subject.

[thedaigakuinsei]

FataliTensei wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

How exactly will bioware plan to discuss this issue? It's not the interviews will.

And do you think they have new arguments or may have withdrawn some? Their arguments were clearly unprepared and winged before so maybe now they'll have a real answer. They know they've upset with recent comment so hopefully they'll want to have something better to say.

 It would be great to have them throw us bone by at least agreeing with us that Shepard can be whatever the player wants (within reason, of course) and can be gay if you imagine him to be. That's really all we can hope for at this point and I'd be perfectly content with it... Is that sad?

It is sad but I'm there with you

i doubt we'll even get that though, I don't want to the downer here but based off their previous answers, which in my view crossed the border from rude and into offensive, i doubt they'll back down and thats even if they're willing to address the subject.

Hey, for those new to the board, what exactly were their previous answers?  I've been too busy with law school to pay attention, haha.

[KawaiiKatie]

thedaigakuinsei wrote...

Hey, for those new to the board, what exactly were their previous answers?  I've been too busy with law school to pay attention, haha.

I wish I had the literal sources to give you, but this stuff has been going on for a while. Basically, the Bioware's past comments on the subject have been:

-Just pick two random men on the Citadel and pretend that they are dating.

-Liara isn't actually female and when femShep sleeps with her, it doesn't count as lesbian sex.

-Shepard is a "pre-determined" character and therefor more limited that the Warden in Dragon Age: Origins.

The first one is just plain offensive, but I could actually buy into the other two if it wasn't for the fact that female Shepard can pursue Kelly Chambers (a human female) and the fact that the Codex confirms the Asari as female. So... I don't even know.

Seriously, why is it that only male Shepard is "pre-determined" as straight?! *raaaaaaaaaaage*

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 11 mai 2011 - 02:21 .

[Blacklash93]

- Shepard is "pre-defined" (except when s/he isn't)

- Gay romances aren't "PG13" enough (even though the game is rated M for Mature)

Those are the ones I remember.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 12 mai 2011 - 01:58 .

[thedaigakuinsei]

Wow.

1. Is just special.

2. Parthenogenesis doesn't mean species have no sex. The lizards are all female, and Asari are pretty clearly female, even if gender doesn't mean anything to them.

3. Doesn't a "pre-determined" character run counter to the purpose of an RPG? Besides, they've explicitly said they want to let the variables run wild at the end of ME3. I dig their inconsistency.

I hope that EA (which has a 100 on the Corporate Equality Ratings from the Human Rights Campaign) works in some sensitivity training/basic common sense on their new Bioware employees.

[KawaiiKatie]

thedaigakuinsei wrote...

3. Doesn't a "pre-determined" character run counter to the purpose of an RPG? Besides, they've explicitly said they want to let the variables run wild at the end of ME3. I dig their inconsistency.

I'm going through some old articles on the subject, and I really like this one from Lesbian Gamers:

The very nature of video games is that it’s a predefined character. No character is truly wide open- the player is bound by the code the programmers have put into the game, which means, you chose not to have a homosexual romance programmed in. It’s a shame, because the Mass Effectstory as a whole is such a good one. But especially for the gay or lesbian gamer, this glaring omission is very apparent, and leaves a sour taste in one’s mouth as they play.

There are other good points in that article, but that one is my favourite.

Most games star a "pre-defined" protagonist with a "pre-defined" love interest. Take Final Fantasy X, for example: nothing the player can say or do (short of not playing the game) can stop the main character, Tidus, from kissing his love interest, Yuna. And that's fine! The story of FFX is all about discovering a story through the eyes of one very specific character.

But Shepard is not specific. We can edit everything (gender, race, morality) except the sexuality of male Shepard. And in the words of Xan, "This has the distinct aroma of homophobia, and it just plain stinks."

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 11 mai 2011 - 03:01 .

[tagoloan boy]

Let me guess, you're not old enough to buy the game for yourself, are you? The word "boy" in your username is a really big clue to your maturity level. Naturally, I've given your statement all of the consideration it deserves, and therefore my response to it is: 


[/quote]

Actually the boy part is to pay homage to the part of the Islands i was born, not to satisfy your twisted view of what an adult outlook should be like from wherever your from. Im just pointing out the view points of many people ive encountered living here in the this adopted country of mine.  But yes to answer your first question i am quite old enough to buy this game, just not too convinced of your outlooks or beliefs. Than again i think this is a lost cause unless the programmers same something about it.  You have your view point, i have mine. I thought we were supposed to be civil and not jump on other peoples throats when they disagree with you. But who knows, you may get your wish. But at this point i don't see them giving in to your demands.

[BrandNewMan]

I respect tagoloan's opinion, though I highly doubt the average Bioware customer is anti-gay. If anything, they're apathetic.

[tagoloan boy]

Thnx BrandNewMan. It is just my opinion. I was just pissed at the personal attack, i just dont want to demean myself like the poster commenting on me like saying, " why don't you take off your jack boots and put your hetero hating tude at the door." But i didn't. I just find it strange that if you post an opinion that doesn't agree with the pro S/S tude that people like said poster immediately get out the beat stick for disagreeing. I respect and appreciate differences in opinions without having to be rude in the process. Again its my opinion and i don't expect people to agree, especially depending on where you come from or the culture you grew up with. Either way, if the pro S/S crowd get there wish, i would still play this game. Although it would be nice if they made it more like Mass Effect 1 ;-)

[tagoloan boy]

And i think your right about the average Bioware customer being apathetic, or just out right accepting and open minded. I think i should clarify that the company is trying to expand the gamer base by trying to appeal to the Call of Duty crowd and it might not be as appealing to them.

[HolyMoogle]

thedaigakuinsei wrote...

Wow.

1. Is just special.

2. Parthenogenesis doesn't mean species have no sex. The lizards are all female, and Asari are pretty clearly female, even if gender doesn't mean anything to them.

3. Doesn't a "pre-determined" character run counter to the purpose of an RPG? Besides, they've explicitly said they want to let the variables run wild at the end of ME3. I dig their inconsistency.

I hope that EA (which has a 100 on the Corporate Equality Ratings from the Human Rights Campaign) works in some sensitivity training/basic common sense on their new Bioware employees.

They actually have a 100 on the HRC CER? I find that laughable... I really do. Especially considering whichever obnoxious figure emerged from the shadows to strip the M/M romance from the original Mass Effect. Perhaps the HRC should look a little closer.

[BrandNewMan]

tagoloan boy wrote...

And i think your right about the average Bioware customer being apathetic, or just out right accepting and open minded. I think i should clarify that the company is trying to expand the gamer base by trying to appeal to the Call of Duty crowd and it might not be as appealing to them.

In this case, I do agree. The potential customers Bioware is trying to reach may not be as accepting. However, it's difficult to say how many potential customers would be dissuaded from buying the game just from the inclusion of a s/s option. Then you have to wonder if those customers are worth keeping.

[Centauri2002]

BrandNewMan wrote...
In this case, I do agree. The potential customers Bioware is trying to reach may not be as accepting. However, it's difficult to say how many potential customers would be dissuaded from buying the game just from the inclusion of a s/s option. Then you have to wonder if those customers are worth keeping.

Sadly, this is about money and not about doing the fair thing. Even if an individual is bigoted, their coin is just as good as the next person, which makes them an equally valid customer. You could say the same about those who want same sex romances, of course, but I think most companies realise where the larger pool of money is located. That's how I see the general attitude anyway.

[tagoloan boy]

In this case, I do agree. The potential customers Bioware is trying to reach may not be as accepting. However, it's difficult to say how many potential customers would be dissuaded from buying the game just from the inclusion of a s/s option. Then you have to wonder if those customers are worth keeping.
[/quote]

haha, well your right about whether it would dissuade potential customers from picking up the game. I wasn't too keen with zevren in dragon age 1 the first time i played the game. After a bunch of replays later, he actually turned out to be a pretty decent team mate. And thats not including the rush i got when his character came running into the battlefield for the final battle in Dragon Age 2. Now that was awesome! You know, just be patient with people who get squemish around the whole S/S issue. People like myself will be civil, and Bioware is just an amazing company. I've been hooked since Knights of the Old Republic. Im just gone leave it to the powers that be to decide this whole issue.

[BrandNewMan]

centauri2002 wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...
In this case, I do agree. The potential customers Bioware is trying to reach may not be as accepting. However, it's difficult to say how many potential customers would be dissuaded from buying the game just from the inclusion of a s/s option. Then you have to wonder if those customers are worth keeping.

Sadly, this is about money and not about doing the fair thing. Even if an individual is bigoted, their coin is just as good as the next person, which makes them an equally valid customer. You could say the same about those who want same sex romances, of course, but I think most companies realise where the larger pool of money is located. That's how I see the general attitude anyway.

Well if it makes any difference, people with higher income are statistically more LGBT friendly.

Modifié par BrandNewMan, 11 mai 2011 - 08:24 .

[ElitePinecone]

tagoloan boy wrote...

And i think your right about the average Bioware customer being apathetic, or just out right accepting and open minded. I think i should clarify that the company is trying to expand the gamer base by trying to appeal to the Call of Duty crowd and it might not be as appealing to them.

This is a fair point to make, and thanks for being nice enough to stick around and have a discussion  

Bioware clearly have their own calculations on what sort of content to include in their games, this might indeed differ for the Mass Effect series. Any decision they make is theirs alone. 

While I understand Bioware's position and the need to ensure the game caters to a wide audience, it's disappointing that any decision to cut or not implement s/s due to concerns over its marketability (or audience share) can't be explained clearly, calmly and rationally through a blog post or similar.

The obfuscation and, frankly, spin we've heard from several senior staffers doesn't fill me with confidence that the issue is or was handled with any consistency. It's no excuse to be silent just because the reasons for the cut could be embarrassing or awkward. As it is, people are assuming far more nefarious motives, something that could be easily rectified with an explanation (or, heck, any communication at all). 

[Wittand25]

HolyMoogle wrote...

thedaigakuinsei wrote...
I hope that EA (which has a 100 on the Corporate Equality Ratings from the Human Rights Campaign) works in some sensitivity training/basic common sense on their new Bioware employees.

They actually have a 100 on the HRC CER? I find that laughable... I really do. Especially considering whichever obnoxious figure emerged from the shadows to strip the M/M romance from the original Mass Effect. Perhaps the HRC should look a little closer.

ME1 happened before EA was involved, so as far as lack of s/s content goes EA is most likely blameless.
EA has many faults, but homophobia is definatly not amongst them. EA employees even have made their own it gets better video.

[Centauri2002]

BrandNewMan wrote...

Well if it makes any difference, people with higher income are statistically more LGBT friendly.

The cost of the game is the same for everyone though, whether you have a high income or not. How accurate is that statistic anyway? For some reason I'm rather skeptical of it. >.>

[tagoloan boy]

[quote]ElitePinecone wrote...

[quote]tagoloan boy wrote...

And i think your right about the average Bioware customer being apathetic, or just out right accepting and open minded. I think i should clarify that the company is trying to expand the gamer base by trying to appeal to the Call of Duty crowd and it might not be as appealing to them.[/quote]

This is a fair point to make, and thanks for being nice enough to stick around and have a discussion  


No I should thank you, and others like yourself that have renewed my faith that there we can come together as adults and discuss this topic in a reasonable fashion. I think its important for you to speak up if your realy passionate about this subject. Im not sure either if Bioware is handling this in the best manner, or for that matter what their real intentions are. Im probably inclined to believe that they are depending on the loyalty of fans who have been following/ playing their games all these years. While the whole M/M option is not my cup of tea, i can see and symapthize the fans who want this. It realy does look like you folks are being marginalized. For that you have my sympathy.