9243 réponses à ce sujet

[DrBobcat]

jlb524 wrote...

So, Casey is going to describe the decision making behind leaving out s/s content in the Mass Effect series while there is s/s content in the ME series (Liara and Kelly)???

According to Bioware, the Mass Effect series is devoid of same-sex content. They contend the Asari are not female and that the relationship with Kelly is not a "real" romance. Thus, as far as the company is concerned, female Shepard is just as straight as her male counterpart. Bioware made these claims in an attempt to defend themselves from double standard accusations.

Keep in mind that these are Bioware's views and not my own. The Asari may have no concept of gender in their culture, but any female that pursues one romantically is engaging in a lesbian relationship. Also, I have a hard time believing a straight woman would invite another woman to her quarters for a strip show. In my opinion, female Shepard can be a bisexual or lesbian if the player so chooses. Period.

Despite what Bioware has said, there is a double standard at work here. Female Shepard can express same-sex attraction towards other characters, while a male Shepard cannot.  At first, I attributed their indecisiveness to a lack of preparation. Yet, as time went on, they made no attempt to clarify their position, and instead continued to make the same excuses.

It is this that upsets me the most, not the absence of m/m content. If the company keeps handling the situation the way it has, I will take my money elsewhere. I care far more about being treated with respect than I do about some video game.

Of course, I doubt they will suddenly change their stance on the matter. That, after all, was the point of my
previous post. If you took me for an opponent of this movement, please know that you are mistaken. If you were being sarcastic, ignore this response altogether.

KawaiiKatie wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

Well if s/s romance isn't an option in ME3, then I'd at LEAST like to see:

1) Gay NPCs represented in the universe

Words cannot describe how much I want this to be Preitor Gavorn.

...........and in my perfect world, he would make a pass exclusively at manShep. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie]

Best. Day. Ever. Gavorn is such a stud. *hugs his avatar* <3

Blacklash93 wrote...

It would be great to have them throw us bone by at least agreeing with us that Shepard can be whatever the player wants (within reason, of course) and can be gay if you imagine him to be. That's really all we can hope for at this point and I'd be perfectly content with it... Is that sad?

It is kind of sad, especially when our original aspirations are taken into account. Even so, do we really have a choice now?

For me, any one of the following would suffice:
[] Bioware concedes Shepard can be homosexual. (Bonus points if they also admit that femShep's romance with Liara is a legitimate lesbian relationship)
[] Bioware apologizes. They would need to provide an accurate and honest explanation for why the content was not implemented. Also, they would need to admit the situation was not handled well and promise to be more upfront in the future.
[] Gay NPCs are introduced. (Bonus points if maleShep can respond to same-sex flirtation in a positive manner)

Modifié par DrBobcat, 11 mai 2011 - 11:21 .

[Terror330]

I feel like my biggest problem with not adding s/s content is that sets such a bad precedent for other BioWare games. Mass Effect is probably the most successful of the BioWare franchises. If they won’t add s/s content in this game, why would they add it to the others?

I know in Dragon Age 2, basically all the LI’s were bi, but look at how much that game has been getting blasted. I realize it wasn’t because of the LI’s being bi, it was because the quality of the game did not live up to the standard of its predecessor, and the scores show that. Still, if they make a 3rd game, who’s to say they would allow s/s content again? I’m sure they’d make a lot of changes in the 3rd game and if they think cutting s/s content would boost sales, why wouldn’t they do it?

I guess my point is that Mass Effect is basically the flag ship game for BioWare right now. If they won’t add s/s content in this game, what is the point in adding it to others? If they make another game that is in the Mass Effect mold, what’s the point of adding m/m or f/f romances? Mass Effect was a huge success and it didn’t have any, so why should other games have it?

That’s basically why I want to see the content added in 3 so badly. Because what’s to stop them from doing this in another game? If BioWare truly really believes that having s/s content hurts sales and sales are what matters most of them, then there is no point in having s/s content in the game.

I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t understand the reasoning behind not having the s/s content in the game. Sales are the most logical explanation to me, because nothing else makes sense. I truly hope s/s content will be in Mass Effect 3, but I get the impression that it won’t be.

[Centauri2002]

@DrBobcat: All of your post is excellent but I just wanted to add my own view about this part.

According to Bioware, the Mass Effect series is devoid of same-sex content. They contend the Asari are not female and that the relationship with Kelly is not a "real" romance. Thus, as far as the company is concerned, female Shepard is just as straight as her male counterpart. Bioware made these claims in an attempt to defend themselves from double standard accusations.

This is just insulting. If BioWare truly believe this then they might as well be saying "lesbians don't exist, there are just women out there who live to entertain us men by snogging other women". I'd get angry about the attitude that a loving same sex relationship is something to hide and deny if I wasn't so damn used to it. I'm just... disappointed now.

BioWare have proven again and again that they're not ones to shy away from this kind of issue and yet they've handled this so poorly.

Edit: @Terror: Whilst I know what you're getting at, I don't really think your logic is sound either. Mass Effect is a sci-fi game. By your logic, that means BioWare will keep making sci-fi games and ignore others. The omission of m/m romance in Mass Effect isn't what made it popular. I'm sure it would still have been just as successful if that had been slipped in. The inclusion of same sex romances isn't what made DA2 bad. Heck, the character interaction was one of the good things about it.

If anything, the same sex romance discussion draws a lot of attention to BioWare's games. Some good, some bad; but it's free publicity for them.

Modifié par centauri2002, 11 mai 2011 - 11:49 .

[Terror330]

@centauri2002 I don't think you truly understood my point. Maybe I didn’t convey it properly.

First of all genre of the game is irrelevant. I didn't even bring that up in my post. I'm not saying sci-fi games sell more than medieval games. Where do you get that?

I understand that s/s content is not what makes a game popular. I honestly don’t think the inclusion of it, or exclusion of it makes any significant difference in terms of sales. I think Mass Effect would be popular, either way. I'm merely trying to get a grasp as to why it has not been added by now. I don’t understand it. Romance, whether it's hetero or s/s is something that adds layers to a game. Its optional content.

What I’m saying is, is that if BioWare thinks it hurts sales, why would they put s/s content in another game. Because what other reason is there not to put it in the game? Can you think of any? I’m trying to understand their logic behind it.

[Centauri2002]

Terror330 wrote...

@centauri2002 I don't think you truly understood my point. Maybe I didn’t convey it properly.

First of all genre of the game is irrelevant. I didn't even bring that up in my post. I'm not saying sci-fi games sell more than medieval games. Where do you get that?

I understand that s/s content is not what makes a game popular. I honestly don’t think the inclusion of it, or exclusion of it makes any significant difference in terms of sales. I think Mass Effect would be popular, either way. I'm merely trying to get a grasp as to why it has not been added by now. I don’t understand it. Romance, whether it's hetero or s/s is something that adds layers to a game. Its optional content.

What I’m saying is, is that if BioWare thinks it hurts sales, why would they put s/s content in another game. Because what other reason is there not to put it in the game? Can you think of any? I’m trying to understand their logic behind it.

I understood what you're getting at but you put it nicely here. I happen to agree with you on this. The only reason I can think of is that they believe fantasy RPGs appeal to a different audience than sci-fi action RPGs. 

[HolyMoogle]

Wittand25 wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

thedaigakuinsei wrote...
I hope that EA (which has a 100 on the Corporate Equality Ratings from the Human Rights Campaign) works in some sensitivity training/basic common sense on their new Bioware employees.

They actually have a 100 on the HRC CER? I find that laughable... I really do. Especially considering whichever obnoxious figure emerged from the shadows to strip the M/M romance from the original Mass Effect. Perhaps the HRC should look a little closer.

ME1 happened before EA was involved, so as far as lack of s/s content goes EA is most likely blameless.
EA has many faults, but homophobia is definatly not amongst them. EA employees even have made their own it gets better video.

Pretty much every large company in Silicon Valley made one of those videos - they would have looked pretty bad if they hadn't.

In any case, I was referring to the HRC looking more at Bioware specifically than EA (they really should be looking into the activities at the ground level of the companies and their subsidiaries that they look at. Hi, Target and King & Spaulding).

I was going to say that the sort of person who would specifically *not* buy a game because there is the possibility of same-sex romance in it would be the sort of less educated, lower-disposable income person who would a) not buy many video games or certainly never buy Bioware games, regardless of the romance options. However, what with Bioware's strategy of going after the CoD market with DAII (although I don't see how - I have other issues with DAII, but it being anything like CoD wasn't one of them) then who knows.

Oh and before somebody inevitably accuses me of stereotyping FPS players, I'm referring to the huge numbers of them who spew homophobic/racist BS all over the internet/XBL/PSN etc. I'm not saying they *all* do it.

Modifié par HolyMoogle, 11 mai 2011 - 12:30 .

[ElitePinecone]

HolyMoogle wrote...
I was going to say that the sort of person who would specifically *not* buy a game because there is the possibility of same-sex romance in it would be the sort of less educated, lower-disposable income person who would a) not buy many video games or certainly never buy Bioware games, regardless of the romance options. However, what with Bioware's strategy of going after the CoD market with DAII (although I don't see how - I have other issues with DAII, but it being anything like CoD wasn't one of them) then who knows.

I think you have a point with , but I'd be wary of generalisations. Plenty of people are willing to endure the characterisation and depth just to get to the shooting. Likewise, plenty of people are willing to endure the shooting to get to the story. Plenty of people like both I would agree, though, that fans of military-esque shooters may tend to shy away from games with multiple hours of dialogue and 'RPG gameplay' such as ME where combat is sporadic. 

Regarding the 'CoD' comment, this is slight off-topic but if I remember correctly the person quoted wasn't stating that BW wanted to capture CoD's audience/market share in particular, but rather an audience of similar size to the CoD series. Presumably this was meant to include their existing RPG fans plus more casual gamers attracted by the gameplay (so, perhaps obviously, not many people who would play CoD or others of its ilk). Clearly, that hasn't worked out very well. 

Terror330 wrote...

Because what other reason is there not to put it in the game? Can you think of any? I’m trying to understand their logic behind it.

To be fair to Bioware, from the accounts we've heard (and I'm more than willing to give the benefit of the doubt) the s/s romances planned for the first game suffered from a lack of development time, and were one of a number of things that were cut from the final version (Caleston, for example, was another hub world involved in Liara's mission). 

Whether the sales argument had an impact on the decision-making process for ME2 remains to be seen, given that we have no statements. 

However, the fact that interviews from BW started using words like 'pre-defined' - and... a rambling answer from Casey about PG-13 moments and Tali and fun - might suggest that a lack of time wasn't a factor in their exclusion from ME2 (and, by all accounts, ME3). 

[Terror330]

I think I’ve read that article that you’re talking about Elite, and it seems like Casey basically has two reasons as to why it wasn’t in 2.

A.) They’d have to do a new scene for the other genders and didn’t want to

B.) They decided to do something else content wise because they thought they did enough with the romances.

B I guess is the most understandable of the two. There were a lot of romance options in the game. However, there wasn’t one that was s/s related. That was a big oversight and a frustrating one at that.

A though, I don’t quite get. I’m not a programmer, but I can’t imagine it would have been that hard to make s/s scenes. I’ve seen the male and female version of the Tali romance. I don’t see any difference from one gender to another. If Hale would have done the VO work for femshep it would have run perfectly. I don’t see how it would have been difficult to pull off. I’m sure other romances could run just as easily as well.

As for Muzyka, he was just rambling in it. All he was saying is that it wasn’t in the game. No real answer as to why.

I’ve pretty much given up on the idea of s/s content being included in Mass Effect 3, but I’m hoping that BioWare doesn’t ignore those in favor of s/s options in future games. That’s really what’s on my mind at the moment.

Also, slightly off topic, but if I didn’t romance anyone in Mass Effect 1 or 2 does that mean I don’t have a romance option in 3? For example, if I skipped out on Liara in Mass Effect 1 does that mean I have no chance with her in 3?

[ElitePinecone]

Terror330 wrote...

Also, slightly off topic, but if I didn’t romance anyone in Mass Effect 1 or 2 does that mean I don’t have a romance option in 3? For example, if I skipped out on Liara in Mass Effect 1 does that mean I have no chance with her in 3?

At this point, it looks like you won't get another chance in ME3. We still have virtually no information, though. 

From everything I've read (Twitter and otherwise) it seems new players to the series will get a chance to 'romance' a ME/ME2 LI through a comic-esque playthrough, and then continue the romance (as imported characters can) in ME3. No mention on whether you can re-romance old characters with a Shepard who hasn't romanced anyone. 

I obviously hope this is the case, and that they open it up a little. 

[ReallyRue]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Terror330 wrote...

Also, slightly off topic, but if I didn’t romance anyone in Mass Effect 1 or 2 does that mean I don’t have a romance option in 3? For example, if I skipped out on Liara in Mass Effect 1 does that mean I have no chance with her in 3?

At this point, it looks like you won't get another chance in ME3. We still have virtually no information, though. 

From everything I've read (Twitter and otherwise) it seems new players to the series will get a chance to 'romance' a ME/ME2 LI through a comic-esque playthrough, and then continue the romance (as imported characters can) in ME3. No mention on whether you can re-romance old characters with a Shepard who hasn't romanced anyone. 

I obviously hope this is the case, and that they open it up a little. 

Considering how they want to make ME3 'accessible to new players', I'd think there would be opportunities to romance old squadmates, or new ones, whichever. I doubt many new players would be particularly interested in looking at some multiple choice question of 'who did Shepard romance?' and saying 'Uhh, maybe the turian... I guess that would be interesting?'. So I'm guessing they would have to put some new romance content in there, instead of only continuing the old stuff. So there's hope for new s/s content!

[BeastMTL]

I've pretty much given up on m/m LI in the Mass effect series. ME3 will be my last Bioware game purchase. After the DA2 fiasco and this whole bs about s/s relationships, It justs seems to me that Bio isnt interested in my custom anymore.

I can only tolerate so much bullcrap before getting sick of it and it's basically all we got since ME1. Trading a solid fanbase for a larger but fickle one is a risky move. I hope it doesnt backfire on them (ok, maybe a little, I'm petty:D)

[BrandNewMan]

centauri2002 wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

Well if it makes any difference, people with higher income are statistically more LGBT friendly.

The
cost of the game is the same for everyone though, whether you have a
high income or not. How accurate is that statistic anyway? For some
reason I'm rather skeptical of it. >.>

Yeah, but I was replying to the general statement that people with money are catered to, not that it was specifically important for Bioware. I could post sources if you'd really like me to, but every poll I've come across that includes information on education and income level shows that people who have a college degree are more in favor of LGBT rights than those without. In terms of income, people who make over 50k are more in favor, even moreso for those who make over 100k.

Modifié par BrandNewMan, 11 mai 2011 - 04:38 .

[Centauri2002]

BrandNewMan wrote...

Yeah, but I was replying to the general statement that people with money are catered to, not that it was specifically important for Bioware. I could post sources if you'd really like me to, but every poll I've come across that includes information on education and income level shows that people who have a college degree are more in favor of LGBT rights than those without. In terms of income, people who make over 50k are more in favor, even moreso for those who make over 100k.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative. I'm genuinely curious about these statistics. 

[thedaigakuinsei]

Terror330 wrote...

Also, slightly off topic, but if I didn’t romance anyone in Mass Effect 1 or 2 does that mean I don’t have a romance option in 3? For example, if I skipped out on Liara in Mass Effect 1 does that mean I have no chance with her in 3?

See, this is where I think developers could really throw LGB gamers a rope.  I feel like you could plausibly weave a narrative where MaleShep-Kaidan / FemShep-Ashley (provided you saved them on Virmire) develop romance in ME3. If you've romanced no one through ME1 and ME2, you can definitely craft a storyline consistent with S-S romance without stepping on anyone's toes.

[M-Sinistrari]

HolyMoogle wrote...
Oh and before somebody inevitably accuses me of stereotyping FPS players, I'm referring to the huge numbers of them who spew homophobic/racist BS all over the internet/XBL/PSN etc. I'm not saying they *all* do it.

I thought that was covered under the Internet Jerkwad equation.

Essentially, Internet + Anonymity + Audience = Act like a Jerkwad.

Granted while some who do vomit out the hate speech honestly believe that crap, there's far more out there who get a thrill thinking they're being edgy, or just trolling, or are being clueless and think that this is how you're supposed to behave on the internet.

[thedaigakuinsei]

centauri2002 wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

Yeah, but I was replying to the general statement that people with money are catered to, not that it was specifically important for Bioware. I could post sources if you'd really like me to, but every poll I've come across that includes information on education and income level shows that people who have a college degree are more in favor of LGBT rights than those without. In terms of income, people who make over 50k are more in favor, even moreso for those who make over 100k.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative. I'm genuinely curious about these statistics. 

I haven't seen statistics on income and LBGT views, but education is positively correlated with both income and pro-gay rights.  There's a reason homophobic high schoolers become pro-gay college grads

[Black Raptor]

Man they should just follow through and concede and make it so that you can be LBGT in ME3, "release" this info and let Fox News do all the advertising for you.

Like what they did with ME1.

Modifié par Black Raptor, 11 mai 2011 - 05:08 .

[BrandNewMan]

centauri2002 wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

Yeah, but I was replying to the general statement that people with money are catered to, not that it was specifically important for Bioware. I could post sources if you'd really like me to, but every poll I've come across that includes information on education and income level shows that people who have a college degree are more in favor of LGBT rights than those without. In terms of income, people who make over 50k are more in favor, even moreso for those who make over 100k.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative. I'm genuinely curious about these statistics. 

Oh I know, was just clarifying what I meant.

According to a CNN poll conducted in April 2011:

Interviews with 824 adult Americans conducted by telephone by
Opinion Research Corporation on April 9-10, 2011. The margin
of sampling error for results based on the total sample is plus or
minus 3.5 percentage points.

Do you think marriages between gay and lesbian couples should or should not be recognized by the
law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages?

Under 50k:
46% should
53% should not

50k or more:
59% should
40% should not

No college:
42% should
57% should not

Attended college:
59% should
39% should not

According to ppic.org in an exit poll for proposition 8:

... it was income and education—much more than race—that determined voters' preferences. While only 43 percent of college graduates voted to ban gay marriage, 69 percent of voters with a high school degree or less voted for the proposition. Nearly 2 in 3 voters making less than $40,000 a year voted for Prop 8, while 55 percent of those making $80,000 or more voted against it.

2009 poll in NY:

Would you support or oppose a law that would allow same-sex couples to get married?

Under 50k:
44% support
47% oppose

50-100k:
56% support
40% oppose

Over 100k:
64% support
30% oppose

No college:
45% support
47% oppose

College:
63% support
31% oppose

Now, the accuracy of the information isn't nearly as important as the common theme.

Modifié par BrandNewMan, 11 mai 2011 - 06:44 .

[earthbornFemShep]

BrandNewMan wrote...

Would you support or oppose a law that would allow same-sex couples to get married?

That's not a yes or no question...

[Centauri2002]

@BrandNewMan: Thanks for posting those. That's very interesting indeed. I wonder how the figures would differ for Europe.

[BrandNewMan]

earthbornFemShep wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

Would you support or oppose a law that would allow same-sex couples to get married?

That's not a yes or no question...

Myyyy bad. I'll fix it.

[earthbornFemShep]

centauri2002 wrote...
The cost of the game is the same for everyone though, whether you have a high income or not.

Well, centauri, you said you were curious about stats/decisions... so...

Level of income makes a difference because of the amount of 'disposable income' each person has.  Though the price of the game doesn't change, the value of the game does.  For a person making $1200 a month, a $60 dollar purchase is a much bigger decision than a person making $4000 a month.  Therefore, it may take more effort to convince a low-income person to purchase the game because they must have a larger perceived value of the item.  

It would make sense to target people with higher incomes because they need less convincing, in theory.  But, that's just one factor.  Teens and young adults are a target market for the video games industry.  Teens are traditionally low-income.  The younger generation is more gay-friendly as a whole, but there still is a lot of homophobia in high schools.

When projecting sales and what features may impact sales, it is difficult to do it based on statistics alone.  There are just so many factors at play, and statistics are only as good as the instrument and procedure used to collect them.  Further, one of the best ways to judge about the impact of certain decisions is to actually ask your users.

Forums, like this one, are a relatively cheap way for Bioware to sample their market.  Therefore, (back on topic), fight for the love is a way to convince Bioware that their current market shouldn't be negatively impacted by this decision, and will be impacted positively. 

Modifié par earthbornFemShep, 11 mai 2011 - 06:54 .

[Cootie]

Not so much of a spoiler, and more of a gameplay element.

Project director Casey Hudson starts by saying that having 12 members in a squad was far too big. Instead, Mass
Effect 3 will focus "on a smaller squad with deeper relationships and more interesting interplay".
Or so says CVG

So, does this raise a teeny glimmer of hope for us, or is it just Bioware throwing another excuse out the window and we'll get to yell at them for it and they'll ignore us completely?
I mean, another iteration of the past few years?

Modifié par Cootie, 11 mai 2011 - 06:57 .

[Ryzaki]

Cootie wrote...

Not so much of a spoiler, and more of a gameplay element.

Project director Casey Hudson starts by saying that having 12 members in a squad was far too big. Instead, Mass
Effect 3 will focus "on a smaller squad with deeper relationships and more interesting interplay".
Or so says CVG

So, does this raise a teeny glimmer of hope for us, or is it just Bioware throwing another excuse out the window and we'll get to yell at them for it and they'll ignore us completely?
I mean, another iteration of the past few years?

Nah they'll ignore us again. 
They're good at that. 

[earthbornFemShep]

Ryzaki wrote...
Nah they'll ignore us again. 
They're good at that. 

So optimistic, Ryzaki.