9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Blacklash93]

I swear if they bring up the pre-defined argument again I'm going to lose it.

You have three sets of tones: Paragon, Neutral, or Renegade. Within those three option, Shepard has chances to express certain opinions toward certain people, races, actions, and ethics. You can choose his/her ethnicity, general backround (and imagine the rest), and class to boot. Shepard is not meant to be the same person through every person's playthrough.

Dragon Age 2 also has three sets of tones: Nice, Sarcastic/Charming, and Serious. In those three options, you also have the choice to express different opinions on all sorts of topics, just like Shepard. You can also choose his/her ethnicity, imagine most of his backround, and pick his/her class. Hawke is not the same person through every person's playthrough, just like Shepard.

As yoiu can see, there is little different between these two games, and yet Bioware insists that the narrative style is different. "First person narrative through the perspective of Hawke"? How is that any different from what Shepard is? They're just slapping two different names on the same thing.

I don't want excuses, I want answers. At the end of the day it was Bioware's decision to or not to include such features. That's what we're asking about. That's what we want to know.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 12 mai 2011 - 01:36 .

[Blacklash93]

And about the double standard, there's no dancing around the issue.

Asari are female. Period. The codex says it and so does common sense. They give birth, have breasts, and are feminine in appearance by every definition. The Liara conversation may have confused a lot of people about the issue so let me make this clear...

*Asari have no concept of gender and do not consider themselves bound to any sex because, for the majority of their existance, they knew of no such thing. They don't know what gender is. Gender is not gender to them, it's just what they simply are. That's THIER perspective. As humans, we do know what gender is and have the PoV they lack. That is why Liara denies being a woman. She doesn't know any better.*

And Kelly... it may not have been a romance, but the fact that a female Shepard was capable of showing and acting on same-sex attraction breaks Bioware's argument into pieces.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 12 mai 2011 - 01:46 .

[ElitePinecone]

Cootie wrote...
Project director Casey Hudson starts by saying that having 12 members in a squad was far too big. Instead, Mass
Effect 3 will focus "on a smaller squad with deeper relationships and more interesting interplay".
Or so says CVG

So, does this raise a teeny glimmer of hope for us, or is it just Bioware throwing another excuse out the window and we'll get to yell at them for it and they'll ignore us completely?
I mean, another iteration of the past few years?

We can remain hopeful and optimistic, but in this case I think pessimism is more prudent, not to mention warranted. 

In any event, S/S aside, deeper connections with the characters is (at this point) a good thing. Twelve characters was far too many, their generally well done characterisation aside. 

I'm going to import a save with a modded ME/ME2-carried-over mShep/Kaidan romance and see what happens. At the very least it's worth a shot  

[Sahariel]

Ok I will try to be very careful in wording this so as not to offend anyone. If Bioware believe the half-thought out response, that Asari aren't scrictly speaking females and therefore a relationship with one isn't a same sex relationship, and that what happens with Kelly isn't a "full" relationship option and hence doesn't qualify then that I am afraid is that.

I completely agree with anyone who happens to argue that doesn't sound logical, and I am perfectly happy with anyone discussing it. However I think it's demeaning to state words to the effect of "I don't accept that position Bioware, I want a different explanation." If that is thier position that is thier position. We are all entitled to our opinions, and if that is thiers they are entitled to it, as you are entitled to yours.

Whilst I concur with most people that their argument is something of a whitewash, I do not detect any actual malice behind the statement, and I think Bioware's overall actions in providing same sex romance options in previous titles should buy them a little leeway on this issue. Talks of boycotts whilst everyone is perfectly entitled to so do if they wish I think harms the potential for lgbt content in video games in the future.

If such a boycott actually hurt EA's coffers in any way (which at this point I seriously doubt) it would more than likely just cause game developers to leave what would then be seen as such potentially inflammatory content out entirely, and communicate no reason as to why. I can completely empathise how some people feel offended and upset by this, but doesn't Bioware's otherwise exemplary record with their other franchises allow them some slack?

Sure if Dragon Age III foreswears same sex content entirely I'll concede a worrying trend is forming, but can't we let them have this one? After all apart from assets people have dragged out of the PC version of ME1 there was no indication in the marketing and run up to the debut of the franchise that same sex relationships would be included, and I've not once heard anyone on these threads complain they were duped into buying a game that sold them on content that was not there. If such were the case I would be much more understanding of people's sense of entitlement.

I would also expect more input from Bioware as well, as taking out content you have marketed your game on IS unethical, and should see the light of day as free DLC if nothing else, but if they simply decide not to include something that is thier choice, and whilst we may lament it's absence it is not the same as not delivering on what is promised, and I don't think warrants as much dev input as a feature that was.

[HolyMoogle]

Sahariel wrote...

Sure if Dragon Age III foreswears same sex content entirely I'll concede a worrying trend is forming, but can't we let them have this one? After all apart from assets people have dragged out of the PC version of ME1 there was no indication in the marketing and run up to the debut of the franchise that same sex relationships would be included,

Why should we let them "have this one"?

As you said, ME1 was supposed to have M/M romances, but the dark forces of [insert somebody senior in Bioware] came along with his wrecking ball of BS and had them removed. That caused outcry, which lasted up until ME2, and all we get is a fairly snide backhand of a half-assed forgery of a F/F romance with that ship hand lady.

Then, pretty much since day 1 of ME2's released, the Fight for the Love campaign has been going on. Bioware knows what we think, they've known it since November 20, 2007.

[BrandNewMan]

Sahariel wrote...

Ok I will try to be very careful in wording this so as not to offend anyone. If Bioware believe the half-thought out response, that Asari aren't scrictly speaking females and therefore a relationship with one isn't a same sex relationship, and that what happens with Kelly isn't a "full" relationship option and hence doesn't qualify then that I am afraid is that.

Understood, but Bioware's statements are contradictory no matter how you look at it. If femshep being attracted to Liara isn't considered homosexual, then maleshep being attracted to her isn't considered heterosexual. That would make both of them pansexual. If maleshep is pansexual, then a same-sex relationship wouldn't be uncharacteristic of him, and would fall under the pre-defined characteristics that Bioware claims he has.

[Blacklash93]

@Sahariel

Most of us aren't upset so much by the lack of s/s content moreso than the fact that Bioware states Shepard can't be gay at all in any instance, when that is clearly not true for femsheps (as said in the double standard I mentioned above).

As fans, we can't accept absurd arguments like that.

It's not like anyone will think less of Bioware if they retract that argument, anyway.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 12 mai 2011 - 03:28 .

[Centauri2002]

Blacklash, just to add to your points on the asari. Liara is perfectly right in saying she doesn't identify with genders. However, gender isn't relevant here. Her sex is female as stated in various sources. FemShep's sex (and also gender but as I said that's not relevant to this discussion) is also female. Since they are both female, they are in a same sex relationship. Simple as that.

[Blacklash93]

I tend to use the two words interchangebly. Sorry if there's any confusion.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 12 mai 2011 - 03:07 .

[Black Raptor]

They planned to make Ash and Miranda to be femshep romanceable but changed both before their respective releases.

[lolwut666]

The asari can charm members of any species, though. If turians, salarians and krogan can get past the anatomical differences between their species and the asari, crossing gender barriers should be no trouble.

Maybe the asari exude some kind of universal pheromone that makes them desirable to anyone.

Anyway, you shouldn't be so upset. Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age II and Jade Empire all have homosexual content, so that means BioWare is not averse to that kind of thing. They probably figure it's not viable to include same sex romance in Mass Effect at this point, but once the trilogy is done, they might include it on other games of the franchise.

Modifié par lolwut666, 12 mai 2011 - 03:15 .

[Blacklash93]

lolwut666 wrote...

The asari can charm members of any species, though. If turians, salarians and krogan can get past the anatomical differences between their species and the asari, crossing gender barriers should be no trouble.

Maybe the asari exude some kind of universal pheromone that makes them desirable to anyone.

That doesn't change a thing. Bioware is still representing f/f relationships in the series while guys are completely left out. The double standard doesn't change. Even without that, there's still Kelly.

Anyway, you shouldn't be so upset. Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age II and Jade Empire all have homosexual content, so that means BioWare is not averse to that kind of thing. They probably figure it's not viable to include same sex romance in Mass Effect at this point, but once the trilogy is done, they might include it on other games of the franchise.

We know this, but we like this trilogy enough to want it to cater to us. There's nothing wrong with that.

[Sahariel]

HolyMoogle wrote...

Sahariel wrote...

Sure if Dragon Age III foreswears same sex content entirely I'll concede a worrying trend is forming, but can't we let them have this one? After all apart from assets people have dragged out of the PC version of ME1 there was no indication in the marketing and run up to the debut of the franchise that same sex relationships would be included,

Why should we let them "have this one"?

As you said, ME1 was supposed to have M/M romances, but the dark forces of [insert somebody senior in Bioware] came along with his wrecking ball of BS and had them removed. That caused outcry, which lasted up until ME2, and all we get is a fairly snide backhand of a half-assed forgery of a F/F romance with that ship hand lady.

Then, pretty much since day 1 of ME2's released, the Fight for the Love campaign has been going on. Bioware knows what we think, they've known it since November 20, 2007.

To reiterate what I have said already, we show faith in them because they have shown themselves to be inclusive in past titles. Many games have content that doesn't make it into the final cut, but the Mass Effect franchise has never been marketed as having included same sex relationships, so you can't turn around and cry foul that they didn't include something they promised you as it was never promised. Someone finding assets in the files DOES NOT equate to a promise to include said content.

Plus the term "dark forces" is a complete assumption on your part. From what is known and I'll give you the fact they have come up with lame reasons why they haven't included it, but that does not equate to a prejudice [insert senior bioware dev]. Show me the proof that was the reason and I'll back you up 100%. What is more likely is it was cut because of time constraints, it happens to Bioware all the time, from Baldur's Gate, to Knight of the Old Republic, and you can often find mods that reinstate it, also sometimes occasionally the odd developer revists the content and restores it.

Same sex content should be included because more choice in interactive video games is better, NOT because you feel entitled. I will also concede Bioware did posit a lame reason for omitting it, but not enough to write them off because of it.

[GameBoyish]

Black Raptor wrote...

They planned to make Ash and Miranda to be femshep romanceable but changed both before their respective releases.

And Tali. And Jack.

Hell, even Thane and Jacob (Garrus too..? I 4got) had gay romances.

I would like to note however that unlike DA2 the dialogue is exactly the same for both genders but it is was homosexual relationships.

[Sahariel]

Also to the posts responding to me that they want m/m relationship. I've got no problem with you wanting that whatsoever. As I stated above giving more story choices is a good thing. I would very much like you to get the most out of your ME experience, and I'll support the movement to have it included and add my voice to the throng. I just do NOT like it when any video game fan group feels entitled to have something included in the game.

Unless that content is something that has been promised in the development process, and is then cut in such a way that people buy the game expecting that content and are duped there should be no entitlement. In such a case I would be behind pretty much everything everyone has said, but this assumption that legacy assets left on the disks equates to such a promise I do not agree with.

People would have had to have bought the game with no expectation of s/s content (as none was marketed as being in it), then opened up the files and tinkered to find the old assests, then retconned thier reaction to saying it should always have been in there. It wasn't marketed as such so you can't claim it HAS to be in there. The fact that the assets are there proves it COULD be in there, and may be enabled and strengthens the argument that it SHOULD be there but not that it HAS to be.

I got very annyoed when Left 4 Dead 2 was announced and loads of fans bleated it was too soon for a new game, and we'll boycott the new one as we deserve this content as free DLC etc. As I say I am more than happy to support people's desire for s/s content in ME2 or 3, but I will not support people's sense of entitlement to it.

[HolyMoogle]

Sahariel wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

Sahariel wrote...

Sure if Dragon Age III foreswears same sex content entirely I'll concede a worrying trend is forming, but can't we let them have this one? After all apart from assets people have dragged out of the PC version of ME1 there was no indication in the marketing and run up to the debut of the franchise that same sex relationships would be included,

Why should we let them "have this one"?

As you said, ME1 was supposed to have M/M romances, but the dark forces of [insert somebody senior in Bioware] came along with his wrecking ball of BS and had them removed. That caused outcry, which lasted up until ME2, and all we get is a fairly snide backhand of a half-assed forgery of a F/F romance with that ship hand lady.

Then, pretty much since day 1 of ME2's released, the Fight for the Love campaign has been going on. Bioware knows what we think, they've known it since November 20, 2007.

To reiterate what I have said already, we show faith in them because they have shown themselves to be inclusive in past titles. Many games have content that doesn't make it into the final cut, but the Mass Effect franchise has never been marketed as having included same sex relationships, so you can't turn around and cry foul that they didn't include something they promised you as it was never promised. Someone finding assets in the files DOES NOT equate to a promise to include said content.

Plus the term "dark forces" is a complete assumption on your part. From what is known and I'll give you the fact they have come up with lame reasons why they haven't included it, but that does not equate to a prejudice [insert senior bioware dev]. Show me the proof that was the reason and I'll back you up 100%. What is more likely is it was cut because of time constraints, it happens to Bioware all the time, from Baldur's Gate, to Knight of the Old Republic, and you can often find mods that reinstate it, also sometimes occasionally the odd developer revists the content and restores it.

Same sex content should be included because more choice in interactive video games is better, NOT because you feel entitled. I will also concede Bioware did posit a lame reason for omitting it, but not enough to write them off because of it.

It's the only reasonable explanation, given that the scenes can be viewed on YouTube. Why specifically remove them if they've already been written, recorded, the people have been paid already, etc etc? It's not as though it's a gameplay feature or quest that they didn't have time to finish/QA.

ME3 is going through an extra few months of polishing and QA - that means that the only explanation for them not being in this game is that somebody in Bioware *does not want* them there. This has already been hinted at by the whole male Shepard's sexual orientation is a sacred cow BS we got from the good doctors.

[Sahariel]

Nope it is not the only reasonable explanation, I just hit up youtube and it appears that modding in s/s on PC means that MShep inexplicably bugs into a female toon when you have the love scene. so it looks PRECISELY like something they didn't have time to finish or QA.

Just because ME3 is going through extra months of dev time doesn't automatically mean they have time to include s/s. The resources may have already been allocated to write space battles, or refined shooting mechanics. Again pure assumption on your part.

For the record if Bioware hadn't included s/s options in any other of thier games I would be inclined to agree with you that perhaps there is an anti s/s agenda at Bioware, but seeing as it is in so many of thier other games it categorically proves they are not.

Modifié par Sahariel, 12 mai 2011 - 03:55 .

[GameBoyish]

MShep/Jacob & MShep/Thane
(with Mark Meer VO!)

[Sahariel]

TriviaAeducan wrote...

MShep/Jacob & MShep/Thane
(with Mark Meer VO!)

I never denied the cut content existed, simply that it has never been promised by Bioware to be included.

[GameBoyish]

I know, it wasn't directed to you, just thought some people might find it interesting as based on the OP the voiced M/M romances were not found yet.

[Sahariel]

Sorry my bad!

[Collider]

I made that video by looking into the game files.
I was surprised to see stuff for Jacob, because I've never heard of them before, only for Thane.
Ultimately it proves nothing other than the lines being recorded. Which doesn't count for much, as you can see here:

Male and Female Shepard seem to have the same script.

[KawaiiKatie]

New Tweet by Casey Hudson on romances... It's evasive (of course) but kind of gives me hope that the "no new romances" thing might not be entirely true! After all, the "no new romances" was never actually confirmed by Bioware.

skx23: @CaseyDHudson could you please give at least a little hint to whether there will be new love interests or not?
skx23: @CaseyDHudson any news on new love interests for shepard?
skx23: @CaseyDHudson is my single shepard going to have to stay single or will there be new love interests?
JA9777: @CaseyDHudson : question, MR Hudson ,are there any romance in #ME3 ?

CaseyDHudson: .@JA9777 @skx23 #ME3 will have relationships with new characters and old friends, some of it romantic. Beyond that, spoiler territory!

Hmmm... You know, I, too have been wondering if the "no new romances" thing meant that even heterosexual!Sheps would have to stay single ME3 (if imported without a romance) but maybe players will be able to spark something new with the "new characters!" And maybe we'll get some same-sex action from our "old friends"? Come on, Kaidan, you know you can't deny my gay!Shep forever!

Maybe Casey Hudson is just affirming what we already know (ME3 will have romance, duh!) but I'm begining to think that the "no new romances" tidbit might be proven wrong, just like James' last name!

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 12 mai 2011 - 04:24 .

[GameBoyish]

*optimist mode switched on*

[KawaiiKatie]

Imported single!Sheps can have a romance in ME3! WOOOOOO~!

Yaoikuza: @CaseyDHudson Will imported Shepards who never pursued a romance in ME1 or ME2 get a chance at love in #ME3, or is he/she single for life?

CaseyDHudson: @Yaoikuza Of course, #ME3 has entry points into the different story arcs for all players, including people totally new to the series.

Aaaaawesome. So, there will be chances to spark a romance even if your Shepard was totally single all through ME1 and ME2. Maybe this'll include Ashley and Kaidan! AND MAYBE THEY'LL BE BISEXUAL JUST LIKE THEY WERE ALWAYS MEANT TO BE OMG OMG OMG YAY.

<3

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 12 mai 2011 - 05:02 .