9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Terror330]

That's good news! Still, I'm not going to do a happy dance just yet.

At the very least I'm glad to know my femshep can romance Liara in the 3rd game. If that means we'll get some bi characters too, that's fantastic.

[HolyMoogle]

Sahariel wrote...

TriviaAeducan wrote...

MShep/Jacob & MShep/Thane
(with Mark Meer VO!)

I never denied the cut content existed, simply that it has never been promised by Bioware to be included.

Well the fact that they made and paid for M/M romance content in both ME1 AND ME2 but then cut it due to time (the time of making sure the cutscene doesn't bug out - OH THE STRUGGLE!) may wash with you, but it doesn't with me. Going to have to agree to disagree here.

To me it's pretty clear that both times it was attempted, and both times it was quashed by somebody senior in Bioware. There may be same-sex romances in ME3, but if there aren't, I kinda doubt we're going to find unused soundfiles/cutscenes this time. Would have been nipped in the bud early on. And the extra dev time they're giving it will erase the whole "oh, we didn't have enough time to debug that cutscene..." BS.

[BrandNewMan]

Sahariel wrote...

Also to the posts responding to me that they want m/m relationship. I've got no problem with you wanting that whatsoever. As I stated above giving more story choices is a good thing. I would very much like you to get the most out of your ME experience, and I'll support the movement to have it included and add my voice to the throng. I just do NOT like it when any video game fan group feels entitled to have something included in the game.

Unless that content is something that has been promised in the development process, and is then cut in such a way that people buy the game expecting that content and are duped there should be no entitlement. In such a case I would be behind pretty much everything everyone has said, but this assumption that legacy assets left on the disks equates to such a promise I do not agree with.

People would have had to have bought the game with no expectation of s/s content (as none was marketed as being in it), then opened up the files and tinkered to find the old assests, then retconned thier reaction to saying it should always have been in there. It wasn't marketed as such so you can't claim it HAS to be in there. The fact that the assets are there proves it COULD be in there, and may be enabled and strengthens the argument that it SHOULD be there but not that it HAS to be.

I got very annyoed when Left 4 Dead 2 was announced and loads of fans bleated it was too soon for a new game, and we'll boycott the new one as we deserve this content as free DLC etc. As I say I am more than happy to support people's desire for s/s content in ME2 or 3, but I will not support people's sense of entitlement to it.

While nothing was ever promised, people naturally expected it in ME2 due to the reason given for the lack of it in ME1 (time restraints).  Nobody from Bioware had the balls to tell us to not expect it. We had to find out for ourselves on release. Nobody was entitled to it, but it was a pretty shady thing for them to do.

Modifié par BrandNewMan, 12 mai 2011 - 08:08 .

[Bill569]

-Have you choose your crush on the import screen so if you choose no one as your crush then no one of the same sex will hit on you.

>No, I don't think that's a good idea. You have to work to have someone have a crush on you.

-Colored font that warns you if you click it you're be stepping into a relationship dialogue. We're not hoping for a Zevran type character we just want a normal character of the same sex who's open to the idea of a same-sex relationship.

>Great idea, but it should be done with NEW characters.

-Have it implemented by way of DLC so if you don't DLC then there's no way you even know Thane, Tali or whomever is open to same-sex relationships.

>No, because that means that these characters were open to same-sex relationships, they just didn't show it. Here is an appropriate metaphor: A man leaves his house and starts walking for his friend's house. There are two routes to his friend's house, and they both are just as short. So, when the man starts walking for his friend's house he has to choose which route to take. When he takes the first route he goes to his friend's house uneventfully. When he takes the second route however, he sees that someone has forgot his keys on his car's door. So he goes on and steals the car. Obviously that is a bad man. Even if he hadn't spotted the car (no DLC) he still is a bad man. Spotting the man (DLC) just made him show that he is a bad man.

Hope you get what I mean.

Modifié par Bill569, 12 mai 2011 - 08:45 .

[ElitePinecone]

TriviaAeducan wrote...

*optimist mode switched on*

I love how this thread has become "monitor Casey Hudson's Twitter feed for details". 

This is reasonably interesting and welcome news. I understand that they can't give spoilers, but it's nice to know new romances (perhaps with old or new characters?) are being considered and implemented. 

Makes me slightly less pessimistic than this time a day or so ago. 

Then again, there's still the tweet about "explaining the decisions" (about the lack of s/s) from a couple of days ago. 

[Bill569]

ME3 DLC with characters open to same-sex relationships would also be a good idea. But that DLC should be released right after ME3 is released.

[GameBoyish]

ElitePinecone wrote...

TriviaAeducan wrote...

*optimist mode switched on*

I love how this thread has become "monitor Casey Hudson's Twitter feed for details". 

This is reasonably interesting and welcome news. I understand that they can't give spoilers, but it's nice to know new romances (perhaps with old or new characters?) are being considered and implemented. 

Makes me slightly less pessimistic than this time a day or so ago. 

Then again, there's still the tweet about "explaining the decisions" (about the lack of s/s) from a couple of days ago. 

:(don't burst my happy bubble.

[MrGone]

Well here's hoping we get some new characters for same sex relationships!

I still think making everyone bi would be an issue for scientific reasons, and hey I even found someone else out there who said something to this effect: http://calitreview.com/15594.

But still, hopefully something is done. Even if they went with DA bi-ness it would be better than not going with anything.

Keep up the fight . . . fight for the love folks!

Cheers to you!

*clinks glass*

[ReallyRue]

I thought there would be new content, what with the whole 'must be accessible to new players' thing.  Good news. It would be marvellous if Ashley was a female s/s option (along with Liara, or another female teammate - like Jack, maybe), whilst Kaiden was a male s/s option (along with James Vega).

Bill569 wrote...

ME3 DLC with characters open to same-sex relationships would also be a good idea. But that DLC should be released right after ME3 is released.

It would be a nice add-on, and what with the Sebastian romance in DA2, which was like a watered-down version of the other romances, it shows Bioware as a whole is willing to do DLC romances of some sort.

[ElitePinecone]

TriviaAeducan wrote...

:(don't burst my happy bubble.

I'm more positive than I was a few days ago, so that's something. 

Even without S/S, it's good for everybody to have more romance opportunities with old/new characters. From that perspective I'm pleased that the relationships are deeper and more involved than ME2's.

I loved all of ME2's characters (Jacob and Miranda aside) - but 12 was far too many to implement proper interactions. Something like two conversations with Garrus and one with Legion didn't take advantage of the significant opportunities to tell stories about the universe. 

[Bill569]

ReallyRue wrote...

I thought there would be new content, what with the whole 'must be accessible to new players' thing.  Good news. It would be marvellous if Ashley was a female s/s option (along with Liara, or another female teammate - like Jack, maybe), whilst Kaiden was a male s/s option (along with James Vega).

Bill569 wrote...

ME3 DLC with characters open to same-sex relationships would also be a good idea. But that DLC should be released right after ME3 is released.

It would be a nice add-on, and what with the Sebastian romance in DA2, which was like a watered-down version of the other romances, it shows Bioware as a whole is willing to do DLC romances of some sort.

Personally, I wouldn't like a same-sex romance option with previous characters. And I think that most players wouldn't like that to happen. I would actually hate it if in ME3 there is a same-sex romance option for Tali, who is my LI. I think that most players will have the same reaction if their LI became open to same-sex romance. I would have no problem however, if there was a same-sex romance option with NEW characters. 

Modifié par Bill569, 12 mai 2011 - 11:19 .

[HolyMoogle]

Bill569 wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

I thought there would be new content, what with the whole 'must be accessible to new players' thing.  Good news. It would be marvellous if Ashley was a female s/s option (along with Liara, or another female teammate - like Jack, maybe), whilst Kaiden was a male s/s option (along with James Vega).

Bill569 wrote...

ME3 DLC with characters open to same-sex relationships would also be a good idea. But that DLC should be released right after ME3 is released.

It would be a nice add-on, and what with the Sebastian romance in DA2, which was like a watered-down version of the other romances, it shows Bioware as a whole is willing to do DLC romances of some sort.

Personally, I wouldn't like a same-sex romance option with previous characters. And I think that most players wouldn't like that to happen. I would actually hate it if in ME3 there is a same-sex romance option for Tali, who is my LI. I think that most players will have the same reaction if their LI became open to same-sex romance. I would have no problem however, if there was a same-sex romance option with NEW characters. 

New romances would be great, but Kaiden and several of the characters from ME2 were originally written as bisexual, so I think content should be there for them too.

[Bill569]

Nyoka wrote...

Bill569 wrote...

>No, because that means that these characters were open to same-sex relationships, they just didn't show it. Here is an appropriate metaphor: A man leaves his house and starts walking for his friend's house. There are two routes to his friend's house, and they both are just as short. So, when the man starts walking for his friend's house he has to choose which route to take. When he takes the first route he goes to his friend's house uneventfully. When he takes the second route however, he sees that someone has forgot his keys on his car's door. So he goes on and steals the car. Obviously that is a bad man. Even if he hadn't spotted the car (no DLC) he still is a bad man. Spotting the man (DLC) just made him show that he is a bad man.

Hope you get what I mean.

Puzzling... maybe that coming out of the closet is something bad, like stealing a car? And that even if he doesn't come out, the very notion that he might do it makes him a bad man?

I am not reffering to the act, but to the man. So, a bad person does bad things. But that doesn't mean that everything he does is bad.

Anyway, think of  Abraham Lincoln's quote: Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

So, if a person has some bad qualities in him that haven't got the chance to surface (no DLC) it doesn't mean that they don't exist. Under the right circumstances, in this example when a man is given power, regarding ME3 when you install the same-sex romance DLC, they will surface.

To avoid confusion, I don't believe that same-sex romance is a bad thing. I believe its wrong, but this is not the matter of this discussion. The point is to reach a mutually accepted solution.

[Bill569]

HolyMoogle wrote...

Bill569 wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

I thought there would be new content, what with the whole 'must be accessible to new players' thing.  Good news. It would be marvellous if Ashley was a female s/s option (along with Liara, or another female teammate - like Jack, maybe), whilst Kaiden was a male s/s option (along with James Vega).

Bill569 wrote...

ME3 DLC with characters open to same-sex relationships would also be a good idea. But that DLC should be released right after ME3 is released.

It would be a nice add-on, and what with the Sebastian romance in DA2, which was like a watered-down version of the other romances, it shows Bioware as a whole is willing to do DLC romances of some sort.

Personally, I wouldn't like a same-sex romance option with previous characters. And I think that most players wouldn't like that to happen. I would actually hate it if in ME3 there is a same-sex romance option for Tali, who is my LI. I think that most players will have the same reaction if their LI became open to same-sex romance. I would have no problem however, if there was a same-sex romance option with NEW characters. 

New romances would be great, but Kaiden and several of the characters from ME2 were originally written as bisexual, so I think content should be there for them too.

Ok, but you should take into consideration two things: One, most players do not want same-sex romance. Two, most players (who do not want same-sex romance) wouldn't like it if their LI became open to same-sex romance. So, the way things have evolved, I think you shouldn't expect old characters to become open to same-sex romance in ME3.

[Bill569]

Oh, and to the man-giraffe-dog guy: stop doing that. It's annoying. Plus we are arguing here, not fighting.

[Wittand25]

Unlocking more character interaction (romantic or otherwise) through DLC would be a bad thing since that smells rather strongly of cutting content to milk customers.

A full romanceable companion DLC is OK, but only if the same kind of romance is at least once in game already. It would be wrong to have a game with just straight (gay) romances and offer the gay (straight) alternative as possibly even paid DLC.

As far as the old vs new debate goes. While I still would love for Kaidan to "serve under" MShep as the files from ME1 say I am perfectly willing to settle with a new guy since that does seem to draw less opposition.

[Centauri2002]

Bill569 wrote...

Ok, but you should take into consideration two things: One, most players do not want same-sex romance. Two, most players (who do not want same-sex romance) wouldn't like it if their LI became open to same-sex romance. So, the way things have evolved, I think you shouldn't expect old characters to become open to same-sex romance in ME3.

This is just silly. People don't like the thought of thier LI being open to same sex romances in other people's games? How does it even effect them? Those people will be involved in a straight relationship with that LI, obviously. Just because they're open to it in other games, doesn't mean that LI is going to go tramping around the galaxy with everyone.

My FemShep romances Liara. I don't like the thought of her going off with any other character, be it male or female. But the fact that she could potentially be into either sex doesn't effect me, because she's loyal to my Shepard.

[Ziggy]

 

Bill569 wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Bill569 wrote...
>No, because that means that these characters were open to same-sex relationships, they just didn't show it. Here is an appropriate metaphor: A man leaves his house and starts walking for his friend's house. There are two routes to his friend's house, and they both are just as short. So, when the man starts walking for his friend's house he has to choose which route to take. When he takes the first route he goes to his friend's house uneventfully. When he takes the second route however, he sees that someone has forgot his keys on his car's door. So he goes on and steals the car. Obviously that is a bad man. Even if he hadn't spotted the car (no DLC) he still is a bad man. Spotting the man (DLC) just made him show that he is a bad man.

Hope you get what I mean.

Puzzling... maybe that coming out of the closet is something bad, like stealing a car? And that even if he doesn't come out, the very notion that he might do it makes him a bad man? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

I am not reffering to the act, but to the man. So, a bad person does bad things. But that doesn't mean that everything he does is bad.

Anyway, think of  Abraham Lincoln's quote: Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

So, if a person has some bad qualities in him that haven't got the chance to surface (no DLC) it doesn't mean that they don't exist. Under the right circumstances, in this example when a man is given power, regarding ME3 when you install the same-sex romance DLC, they will surface.

To avoid confusion, I don't believe that same-sex romance is a bad thing. I believe its wrong, but this is not the matter of this discussion. The point is to reach a mutually accepted solution.

Ignoring your 'wrong but not bad' comment.... 
I don't see how, in all good conscience, bioware could even consider catering to the few people so homophobic that the mere knowledge there exists dlc in which a character is open to ss romance offends them that much that they wouldn't buy the game.

Modifié par Em23, 12 mai 2011 - 12:39 .

[ElitePinecone]

Bill569 wrote...
 One, most players do not want same-sex romance. Two, most players (who do not want same-sex romance) wouldn't like it if their LI became open to same-sex romance. 

Firstly don't take this the wrong way, but every poll we've ever run on the issue has shown that the vast majority of respondents either want same-sex romance or don't care either way. Granted, the participants in a forum aren't entirely representative of 'the players' as a whole - but I'd seriously doubt "most players do not want same-sex romance". On what are you basing this claim other than a gut feeling?

Secondly, I'm struggling to work out how the option of a same-sex romance would affect the character in the slightest.

You're presumably playing as a maleShep romancing Tali, from your posts above. 

You'd *never* see the same-sex option unless you played as a female Shepard and specifically romanced the character, assuming the option existed. In the 'universe' of your maleShep playthrough, she's a quarian with a fetish for male humans (as odd as that is). In 'another' universe of another player's game, she might not romance anybody at all. In a third universe, she romances someone's femShep because they picked the option. 

Options don't become reality until someone choose them - the capacity to be something doesn't make it so, especially if you choose the opposite. 

[Terror330]

Everyone pretty much said it, but if you're already romancing someone, you wouldn't notice if they were bi. That argument does not hold up very well. Besides, for me personally, if I had a favorite LI and they turned out to be bi I would be pleased to know that it wouldn't matter what gender I was, I could still romance them.

To me the issue is more about the other LI's, the ones you weren't romancing . If they were all bisexual, then you would more or less be walking on eggshells around them when speaking to them. Most people that play the game are guys, and I don't think most of them want to accidentally romance Garrus. They need to make it so people don't accidentally romance characters by mistake. That to me is more of the issue. Still, we don't even know if there will be bi LI's so right now that may not even be a concern.

Modifié par Terror330, 12 mai 2011 - 12:46 .

[Bill569]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Firstly don't take this the wrong way, but every poll we've ever run on the issue has shown that the vast majority of respondents either want same-sex romance or don't care either way. Granted, the participants in a forum aren't entirely representative of 'the players' as a whole - but I'd seriously doubt "most players do not want same-sex romance". On what are you basing this claim other than a gut feeling?

If Bioware had statistics that showed that most players are ok with same-sex romance and many players wanted a same-sex romance option, then such an option would had been implemented in ME2 or it would had been added with DLCs.

ElitePinecone wrote...

Secondly, I'm struggling to work out how the option of a same-sex romance would affect the character in the slightest.

You're presumably playing as a maleShep romancing Tali, from your posts above. 

You'd *never* see the same-sex option unless you played as a female Shepard and specifically romanced the character, assuming the option existed. In the 'universe' of your maleShep playthrough, she's a quarian with a fetish for male humans (as odd as that is). In 'another' universe of another player's game, she might not romance anybody at all. In a third universe, she romances someone's femShep because they picked the option. 

Options don't become reality until someone choose them - the capacity to be something doesn't make it so, especially if you choose the opposite. 

Because in all these three universes Tali was identical until she met Shepard. Then her actions were affected by Shepard's actions and thse three universes started differentiating. Also, Shepard's actions didn't change Tali's opinion on relationships. So, if Tali is open to same-sex romance option in one universe, she is open to same-sex romance in all universes.

[Bill569]

Em23 wrote...

 

Bill569 wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Bill569 wrote...
>No, because that means that these characters were open to same-sex relationships, they just didn't show it. Here is an appropriate metaphor: A man leaves his house and starts walking for his friend's house. There are two routes to his friend's house, and they both are just as short. So, when the man starts walking for his friend's house he has to choose which route to take. When he takes the first route he goes to his friend's house uneventfully. When he takes the second route however, he sees that someone has forgot his keys on his car's door. So he goes on and steals the car. Obviously that is a bad man. Even if he hadn't spotted the car (no DLC) he still is a bad man. Spotting the man (DLC) just made him show that he is a bad man.

Hope you get what I mean.

Puzzling... maybe that coming out of the closet is something bad, like stealing a car? And that even if he doesn't come out, the very notion that he might do it makes him a bad man? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

I am not reffering to the act, but to the man. So, a bad person does bad things. But that doesn't mean that everything he does is bad.

Anyway, think of  Abraham Lincoln's quote: Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

So, if a person has some bad qualities in him that haven't got the chance to surface (no DLC) it doesn't mean that they don't exist. Under the right circumstances, in this example when a man is given power, regarding ME3 when you install the same-sex romance DLC, they will surface.

To avoid confusion, I don't believe that same-sex romance is a bad thing. I believe its wrong, but this is not the matter of this discussion. The point is to reach a mutually accepted solution.

Ignoring your 'wrong but not bad' comment.... 
I don't see how, in all good conscience, bioware could even consider catering to the few people so homophobic that the mere knowledge there exists dlc in which a character is open to ss romance offends them that much that they wouldn't buy the game.

Then why there ins't a same-sex romance option in ME1 or ME2?

[Teamsleeper]

FIGHT FOR THE LOVE !
Fight for Jack !

[bd223437]

Bill569 wrote...

ME3 DLC with characters open to same-sex relationships would also be a good idea. But that DLC should be released right after ME3 is released.

I could agree with you, but only if you're suggesting this DLC be free with game purchase like Shale in DA:O.  Otherwise producing the male oriented relationship for further money is just exclusionary in a different way.  A specific orientation should not have to pay extra just to be included.

I respectfully disagree with the interpretation of the sentiment that is trying to be expressed as entitlement.  There are four possible single partner pairing combinations involving the human concept of sex (which is the attitude and understanding of both players and their avatar Shepard so Asari concepts of a single sex [despite their blatant embrace of female pronouns] are not really a concern).  Obviously, male Shepard has female partners available to him.  Female Shepard also has a variety of male partners.  Additionally, female Shepard has two options for female partners.  Only male Shepard may not explore that avenue, and intentional or not, it sends a message that male orientation toward other males does not exist, should not exist or has in some way been eliminated. 

The emotional response from players, as I am experiencing it, is an acute awareness of being excluded.  Providing female Shepard female partners and omitting male partners for male Shepard is hypocritical at best, and insulting at the worst.  I cannot comprehend how anyone can pick and choose the attractive aspects of a culture, in this case girl on girl action, toss out the rest and consider it acceptable to not even acknowledge the inequality.

I can see how this could be construed as entitlement; however I think it is a completely justified expectation for anyone to feel represented and included in a situation that highlights such a wide variety of human traits including sexuality.  It is all the more confusing then that a game company that has consistently included this group has repeatedly excluded them in this series.  Contrary to the assertion that we should give them a break, I consider that less appropriate here.  They should be held to their own high standard, not allowed to simply get by, or worse, move in the opposite direction (as in the case of claiming Kelly isn't really a relationship and Liara isn't really a woman). 

I highly doubt a boycott would be a particularly effective demonstration at this point.  Personally, I am inclined to retain my $60 which I would not expect to be anything even resembling a drop in the bucket.  I would pass on ME3 knowing full well that this is only a symbolic gesture about the omission of a single aspect of a game.  In turn that omission of a single aspect is in itself a symbolic gesture so I think we'd be even from cosmic accounting standpoint.  This aspect could be just as easily included as the three existing pairing variations.  A single line with the same sex VS asking Shepard why they were chosen could offer A) a romantic option, a friendship option, or C) an "I flipped a Krogan, you were tails, Wrex faceplanted, so you won" option.  Options b and c in that example return things to business as usual, option A opens up a chance at romance. Option A could only appear if the VS is the same sex as Shepard and Shepard has not engaged in another romance during either prior game.  That approach seems the most consistent with the design philosophy of the game hinging on decisions made from the previous two.  It's a bit like returning to the Jade Empire approach, but a slight backslide is preferable to an all out tumble down the slippery slope.