9243 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

1Minsc1 wrote...

Captain_Obvious wrote...

I really don't see how Liara can be anything but female, she said herself the Asari were mono-gendered, not hermaphroditic or androgynous, or something more esoteric. I am still fighting for the love for my manShep, though.

Asari are female by canon. But, because of the way of reproducing, i think they are hermaproditic. At least when two Asari pair, both could become pregnant and integrate DNS of the partner. It's a simple trick by BW to label them as females. Otherwise, we don't know if Asari can fertilize femals of others races/species, so in sexual contacts with them they seem always to be female.

Actually, I believe the asari's partner doesn't contribute DNA, only the mother contributes to her child's genome. The other half of the daughter's genome is randomized, either through the melding process with another asari or an alien (where no physical material is exchanged), or perhaps even with 'a little radiation', if that throwaway line is to be believed. Given that asari do not directly contribute genetic material, or actively 'fertilize' the mother's egg, they cannot technically be considered hermaphroditic. Perhaps pseudohermaphroditic, but without fully-functional 'male' capability, they don't qualify as having two sexes from a reproductive standpoint.

[FKA_Servo]

Siansonea II wrote...


I am neither upbeat nor downbeat, neither optimistic nor pessimistic, though perhaps leaning a bit more toward the latter than a true neutral position. I am in standby mode, I guess. I do think Kaidan/Ashley s/s is the most likely option at this point, but my preference is Kaidan/Miranda. I really get tired of Kaidan and Ashley being treated as a single character, for one thing, and I just think Miranda makes more sense than Ashley as a s/s human LI. Ash is pretty forthright, she says what's on her mind. She flirts openly with ManShep in ME1, I find it hard to believe she wouldn't also flirt with FemShep in the same circumstance. Miranda is much more reserved, the same way that Kaidan is. Neither of them is free with their affections, and they strike me as the most complex personalities. Plenty of room for Miranda to have s/s feelings toward FemShep, and it could well be that Miranda's fertility concerns and questions is what made her focus on males exclusively for a while. With that issue put to rest, she might not limit herself so much in the future, especially when it comes to the one gal who helped her resolve her sister's situation and also helped her make a break from the Illusive Man. And Kaidan could so easily be bisexual it would literally take one line of dialogue to make it happen. Something along the lines of "you never asked, Shepard".

I agree about their respective characters. I guess I'm just thinking in terms of streamlining (after all, one of the many benefits of having a cast of bi LIs is it requires less work for the developers), and frequently Kaidan/Ashley just kinda blend together to the point where they're just collectively referred to as the "Virmire Survivor," along with the fact that they both seem to have been initially available to both Sheps.

The thing about Miranda (and here, I'm not taking her character or anything into consideration) is that she's a ME2 character, and I can easily see the ME2 characters available only if you initiated the romance in ME2, as sort of an incentive to play that and import. I made the exception for Tali/Garrus because it seemed logical in that they were there from the beginning, and they seem like they'd provide a nice balance for the "four bi LI" approach that worked so well in DA2.

So we'd have:

Human fe/male, depending
Asari female
Humanoid male alien
Humanoid female alien

It just seems like it works.

Modifié par TommyServo, 13 mai 2011 - 05:30 .

[jlb524]

TommyServo wrote...

I might be in the minority, but just as I don't agree that opening Kaidan or Ash up in the third game would be a retcon, I don't really see Tali or Garrus as such either. Sometimes these things take a while! If they were to open Kaidan/Ash and Tali/Garrus to s/s, along with Liara, then that would be ideal, with four completely inclusive options.

I think with Tali/Garrus, most believe that their species were retconned a bit to be attracted/compatible with humans.  As individuals, that doesn't matter though.  I personally don't care one way or the other.

TommyServo wrote...

I think DA2 had the best romance implementation of any Bioware game to date, not just because of it's inclusiveness. The way the romance plots were interwoven into the greater narrative was brilliant, and so much better than the talk/mission/talk/mission/boink of Mass Effect.

Yes, I do agree.  For starters, definitely due to the inclusiveness (it's nice to be able to do whatever type of romance with whomever without having to hunt for a mod) and the fact that there was more to them than the limited ME ones (I personally don't care much for how the ME romances work in general...the 'two convos and then sex' thing kind of sucks).

I would say DA:O had more dialog in romances, but I found the pacing with some of them to be awful (you could burn through them pretty quickly by gaining approval...gifts).  I've heard of people sleeping with Morrigan while still completing Lothering and I finished up the entire Leliana romance mid-game my first pt. 

With DA2, they were limited to certain places/times and were hence spread out more realistically throughout the game.  I just wish the DA2 ones had more dialog, and perhaps some instances where you can speak with companions outside of their home base.  My ideal would be some form of combination between DA:O and DA2.

[Ghost Warrior]

I am almost 100% sure there won't be M/M romance in ME3. Why?
Because as we all know,BioWare confirmed there will be no new LIs in ME3,and making already existing characters gay would just ruin their characters. That statement has nothing to do with my feelings on gay people,I just think it would be stupid to suddenly make Thane(for example) gay,since he never showed any interest for MaleShep in previous game. Doing so would just be obvious fan service.

Something else. Yesterday I said I wouldn't like to see S/S option in ME3,but wouldn't rage or something if it happened. I've been thinking about it and this is what I think now,after lot of thinking about this issue,and this opinion is unlikely to change: if they make some of the existing characters gay just to humour fans,I will be mad and will develop serious dislike for that characters (better not do that to garrus).
BUT,if they decide to introduce new gay LIs after all (as Casey said,everything can change during game development and nothing is final until game comes out),I would actually support that. I'll explain. For people who want S/S that will obviously give them a chance to confirm their Shepards as gay people,but to people who absolutely don't want such thing,BioWare can easily make it in the way that when a certain gay LI showes interest in Shepard,he can respond something like "no,I am not interested in men" or even a lot more insulting (for Renegades) and by that confirm his straight status.

[Russalka]

We disagree.

[Siansonea]

TommyServo wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


I am neither upbeat nor downbeat, neither optimistic nor pessimistic, though perhaps leaning a bit more toward the latter than a true neutral position. I am in standby mode, I guess. I do think Kaidan/Ashley s/s is the most likely option at this point, but my preference is Kaidan/Miranda. I really get tired of Kaidan and Ashley being treated as a single character, for one thing, and I just think Miranda makes more sense than Ashley as a s/s human LI. Ash is pretty forthright, she says what's on her mind. She flirts openly with ManShep in ME1, I find it hard to believe she wouldn't also flirt with FemShep in the same circumstance. Miranda is much more reserved, the same way that Kaidan is. Neither of them is free with their affections, and they strike me as the most complex personalities. Plenty of room for Miranda to have s/s feelings toward FemShep, and it could well be that Miranda's fertility concerns and questions is what made her focus on males exclusively for a while. With that issue put to rest, she might not limit herself so much in the future, especially when it comes to the one gal who helped her resolve her sister's situation and also helped her make a break from the Illusive Man. And Kaidan could so easily be bisexual it would literally take one line of dialogue to make it happen. Something along the lines of "you never asked, Shepard".

I agree. I guess I'm just thinking in terms of streamlining (after all, one of the many benefits of having a cast of bi LIs is it requires less work for the developers), and frequently Kaidan/Ashley just kinda blend together to the point where they're just referred to as the "Virmire Survivor," along with the fact that they both seem to have been initially available to both Sheps. The thing about Miranda (and here, I'm not taking her character or anything into consideration) is that she's a ME2 character, and I can easily see the ME2 characters available only if you initiated the romance in ME2, as sort of an incentive to play that and import. I made the exception for Tali/Garrus because it seemed logical in that they were there from the beginning, and they seem like they'd provide a nice balance for the "four bi LI" approach that worked so well in DA2.

I see what you're saying, but my biggest concern with Miranda is actually how tight-lipped the devs are being where she's concerned, it makes me wonder what Miranda's role in ME3 will be. Will she be like Anders, forcing an issue, or will she be a Cerberus mole? In either case, it's not looking like a happy ending for Mirimancers in general, whether she becomes a s/s LI or not. We've heard a fair bit of talk about Jack, Kaidan, Ashley, and a few others, but Miranda has been confirmed to be in the game, but other than that I've heard precious little. And the fact that she hasn't been confirmed as a full-time squad member is also of concern. It's hard to start a relationship with someone you see on a few missions but don't interact with regularly.

[FKA_Servo]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

That statement has nothing to do with my feelings on gay people,I just think it would be stupid to suddenly make Thane(for example) gay,since he never showed any interest for MaleShep in previous game. Doing so would just be obvious fan service.

Tali. Garrus. Just sayin'.

[Siansonea]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

I am almost 100% sure there won't be M/M romance in ME3. Why?
Because as we all know,BioWare confirmed there will be no new LIs in ME3,and making already existing characters gay would just ruin their characters. That statement has nothing to do with my feelings on gay people,I just think it would be stupid to suddenly make Thane(for example) gay,since he never showed any interest for MaleShep in previous game. Doing so would just be obvious fan service.

Something else. Yesterday I said I wouldn't like to see S/S option in ME3,but wouldn't rage or something if it happened. I've been thinking about it and this is what I think now,after lot of thinking about this issue,and this opinion is unlikely to change: if they make some of the existing characters gay just to humour fans,I will be mad and will develop serious dislike for that characters (better not do that to garrus).
BUT,if they decide to introduce new gay LIs after all (as Casey said,everything can change during game development and nothing is final until game comes out),I would actually support that. I'll explain. For people who want S/S that will obviously give them a chance to confirm their Shepards as gay people,but to people who absolutely don't want such thing,BioWare can easily make it in the way that when a certain gay LI showes interest in Shepard,he can respond something like "no,I am not interested in men" or even a lot more insulting (for Renegades) and by that confirm his straight status.

I don't share your opinion, but I respect the manner in which you have shared your opinion. I wouldn't mind one or two previous characters revealing that they are bisexual, but I would prefer them to be human rather than alien. It seems like sex with aliens is treated with complete disregard for biology, cross-species taboo, or anything like that, but m/m with another human is locked down like Fort Knox. I just think the implications of that are really ugly.

[1Minsc1]

Siansonea II wrote...

1Minsc1 wrote...

Captain_Obvious wrote...
I really don't see how Liara can be anything but female, she said herself the Asari were mono-gendered, not hermaphroditic or androgynous, or something more esoteric. I am still fighting for the love for my manShep, though.

Asari are female by canon. But, because of the way of reproducing, i think they are hermaproditic. At least when two Asari pair, both could become pregnant and integrate DNS of the partner. It's a simple trick by BW to label them as females. Otherwise, we don't know if Asari can fertilize femals of others races/species, so in sexual contacts with them they seem always to be female.

Actually, I believe the asari's partner doesn't contribute DNA, only the mother contributes to her child's genome. The other half of the daughter's genome is randomized, either through the melding process with another asari or an alien (where no physical material is exchanged), or perhaps even with 'a little radiation', if that throwaway line is to be believed. Given that asari do not directly contribute genetic material, or actively 'fertilize' the mother's egg, they cannot technically be considered hermaphroditic. Perhaps pseudohermaphroditic, but without fully-functional 'male' capability, they don't qualify as having two sexes from a reproductive standpoint.

Makes sense. Although they pair with "aliens" to randomize the DNA. And they reprodce by sex, that requires two sexes (or?). I think that's an other example that shows that our human definitions are often inappropiate in ME-universe. 

[Ghost Warrior]

TommyServo wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

That statement has nothing to do with my feelings on gay people,I just think it would be stupid to suddenly make Thane(for example) gay,since he never showed any interest for MaleShep in previous game. Doing so would just be obvious fan service.

Tali. Garrus. Just sayin'.

Agree,that was a mistake on BioWare's part,but it's still not the same. They may have developed interest in Shep as they spent more time with him/her and that's one thing. Suddenly changing their sexual orientation is another thing.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 13 mai 2011 - 05:42 .

[FKA_Servo]

1Minsc1 wrote...

Makes sense. Although they pair with "aliens" to randomize the DNA. And they reprodce by sex, that requires two sexes (or?). I think that's an other example that shows that our human definitions are often inappropiate in ME-universe. 

Actually, don't they reproduce via their mind meld thing? I think the act itself is entirely unnecessary for Asari.

[FKA_Servo]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Agree,that was a mistake,but it's still not the same. They may have developed interest in Shep as they spent more time with him/her and that's one thing. Suddenly changing their sexual orientation.

Whether it was a mistake or not is entirely subjective. Personally, I like both characters and I'm glad that they're available.

Anyway, the fact is, none of the characters are canon anything. How is plausibly writing a bisexual character  based on the preference of your audience any different than plausibly writing an interspecies relationship for same?

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with "fan service." Keep in mind, they're writing for an audience. Part of the reason these forums exist is for players to provide feedback on how to improve the game. Bioware takes it and runs with it (or doesn't). Them's the facts.

Modifié par TommyServo, 13 mai 2011 - 05:57 .

[1Minsc1]

TommyServo wrote...

1Minsc1 wrote...
Makes sense. Although they pair with "aliens" to randomize the DNA. And they reprodce by sex, that requires two sexes (or?). I think that's an other example that shows that our human definitions are often inappropiate in ME-universe. 

Actually, don't they reproduce via their mind meld thing? I think the act itself is entirely unnecessary for Asari.

Yes, it's that mind meld thing. But this is the act. Somehow this enables them to randomize the DNA for the child. That's why the pair with "alien", to get "fresh DNA". It's confusing.

[Siansonea]

1Minsc1 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

1Minsc1 wrote...

Captain_Obvious wrote...
I really don't see how Liara can be anything but female, she said herself the Asari were mono-gendered, not hermaphroditic or androgynous, or something more esoteric. I am still fighting for the love for my manShep, though.

Asari are female by canon. But, because of the way of reproducing, i think they are hermaproditic. At least when two Asari pair, both could become pregnant and integrate DNS of the partner. It's a simple trick by BW to label them as females. Otherwise, we don't know if Asari can fertilize femals of others races/species, so in sexual contacts with them they seem always to be female.

Actually, I believe the asari's partner doesn't contribute DNA, only the mother contributes to her child's genome. The other half of the daughter's genome is randomized, either through the melding process with another asari or an alien (where no physical material is exchanged), or perhaps even with 'a little radiation', if that throwaway line is to be believed. Given that asari do not directly contribute genetic material, or actively 'fertilize' the mother's egg, they cannot technically be considered hermaphroditic. Perhaps pseudohermaphroditic, but without fully-functional 'male' capability, they don't qualify as having two sexes from a reproductive standpoint.

Makes sense. Although they pair with "aliens" to randomize the DNA. And they reprodce by sex, that requires two sexes (or?). I think that's an other example that shows that our human definitions are often inappropiate in ME-universe. 

 

I am pretty certain that the asari form of sexual reproduction only requires one sex. They merely need another individual to help them achieve fertilization. Because of the asari biology, that individual can be another asari or an alien, and the gender of the alien is not a factor. They simply need another body/nervous system to meld with. 

[jlb524]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Agree,that was a mistake on BioWare's part,but it's still not the same. They may have developed interest in Shep as they spent more time with him/her and that's one thing. Suddenly changing their sexual orientation is another thing.

The only problems with this are:

1)  Sexuality can change over time, either private or public sexuality.  For example, every LGBT person who ever came out of the closet has changed their public sexuality.

2)  Tali and Garrus are problematic as there's no indication (in ME1) that a quarian would be into a human or a turian would be into a human, including these specific characters.  They changed what type of people these characters could possibly find attractive at the core and didn't simply have them realize feelings for an individual of a type of people that they always did find attractive.

Modifié par jlb524, 13 mai 2011 - 05:50 .

[Siansonea]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

That statement has nothing to do with my feelings on gay people,I just think it would be stupid to suddenly make Thane(for example) gay,since he never showed any interest for MaleShep in previous game. Doing so would just be obvious fan service.

Tali. Garrus. Just sayin'.

Agree,that was a mistake on BioWare's part,but it's still not the same. They may have developed interest in Shep as they spent more time with him/her and that's one thing. Suddenly changing their sexual orientation is another thing.

This entire line of thinking is built upon the premise that we know beyond doubt that Garrus, Tali, or whomever else is 100% emphatically heterosexual, and quite simply, we don't know that. Bisexual people flirt with and have relationships with persons of the opposite sex all the time. They may or may not reveal to that person that they are bisexual. In any case, in the absence of an emphatic, unequivocal declaration of exclusive heterosexuality, no character can be assumed to be exclusively heterosexual simply because we've only observed them expressing heterosexual interest up until now.

[Siansonea]

1Minsc1 wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

1Minsc1 wrote...
Makes sense. Although they pair with "aliens" to randomize the DNA. And they reprodce by sex, that requires two sexes (or?). I think that's an other example that shows that our human definitions are often inappropiate in ME-universe. 

Actually, don't they reproduce via their mind meld thing? I think the act itself is entirely unnecessary for Asari.

Yes, it's that mind meld thing. But this is the act. Somehow this enables them to randomize the DNA for the child. That's why the pair with "alien", to get "fresh DNA". It's confusing.

The asari taboo regarding purebloods has given rise to the idea that alien melding produces better offspring, but the asari themselves differ on whether they think any actual traits from the father are incorporated into the asari daughter. They haven't proven conclusively that non-asari pairings have any effect other than to prevent the offspring from having ardat-yakshi daughters themselves.

[1Minsc1]

Siansonea II wrote...

1Minsc1 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

1Minsc1 wrote...

Captain_Obvious wrote...
I really don't see how Liara can be anything but female, she said herself the Asari ...

Asari are female by canon. But, because of the way of reproducing, i think they are...

Actually, I believe the asari's partner doesn't contribute DNA, only the mother contributes...

Makes sense. Although they pair with "aliens" to randomize the DNA. And they reprodce by sex, that requires two sexes (or?). I think that's an other example that shows that our human definitions are often inappropiate in ME-universe. 

 

I am pretty certain that the asari form of sexual reproduction only requires one sex. They merely need another individual to help them achieve fertilization. Because of the asari biology, that individual can be another asari or an alien, and the gender of the alien is not a factor. They simply need another body/nervous system to meld with. 

Because of that i said "I think that's an other example that shows that our human definitions are often inappropiate in ME-universe." Lets trust the canon...

[Siansonea]

I'd also like to address the 'fanservice' issue. After ME1, many people clamored for a geth squad member, which at the time was a silly idea that many people disparaged as game-breaking and fanservice, and yet Legion is a great character who expands our understanding of the geth in new and interesting ways. Legion doesn't retcon anything we know about the geth in ME1, he just adds layers. People also asked for a salarian squad mate, so one could say that Mordin is a fanservice character. And yet, Mordin is an incredibly nuanced and thought-provoking character who I think is one of the best characters in the franchise. My point is, something that starts out as a 'fanservice' idea can easily become a wonderful addition to the series in its own right, so simply labeling something fanservice does not necessarily label it 'a bad idea'.

[jlb524]

Yeah, some fanservice is good and some is bad.

If you think s/s content is bad fanservice, you will need to justify that statement by showing how it will be a detriment to the series. Given that it's all optional content, I think that will be difficult.

[Ghost Warrior]

jlb524 wrote...


The only problems with this are:

1)  Sexuality can change over time, either private or public sexuality.  For example, every LGBT person who ever came out of the closet has changed their public sexuality.

2)  Tali and Garrus are problematic as there's no indication (in ME1) that a quarian would be into a human or a turian would be into a human, including these specific characters.  They changed what type of people these characters could possibly find attractive at the core and didn't simply have them realize feelings for an individual of a type of people that they always did find attractive.

1) True enough

2) You are right again. But I already said I believe it was a mistake to introduce them as LIs in ME2 after giving no indication of that in ME1,as much as I found their romances amusing.

And I know that romancing same-sex human should be more acceptable than romancing opposite-sex alien on one level,but for some reason it's not for a lot of people,me included. Not sure why though,I admit it doesn't make much sense. 

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that these aliens are 100% fictional and don't exist outside ME universe. Since gay humans most certainly exist,and it's not accepted by everyone in the real world,a lot of people mind such thing being transferred in the game. And if aliens existed too,I bet a lot of people would be against that too. I don't know,some things cannot be explained. But I would like to hear what do you think is a reason.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 13 mai 2011 - 06:13 .

[Siansonea]

jlb524 wrote...

Yeah, some fanservice is good and some is bad.

If you think s/s content is bad fanservice, you will need to justify that statement by showing how it will be a detriment to the series. Given that it's all optional content, I think that will be difficult.

Hear, hear. A lot of people have labeled the Garrus/Tali romances as complete fanservice, but opinions differ on whether the implementation was of a high quality standard or not. In any case, both romances are 100% avoidable by any who are not inclined to romance those characters, and the same would be true of s/s LI storylines. 

[M-Sinistrari]

Siansonea II wrote...

I am pretty certain that the asari form of sexual reproduction only requires one sex. They merely need another individual to help them achieve fertilization. Because of the asari biology, that individual can be another asari or an alien, and the gender of the alien is not a factor. They simply need another body/nervous system to meld with. 

My understanding was that an asari already has enough of a DNA configuration to produce a child, but without the meld with another sentient to help randomize the DNA if they did spontaneously produce it'd be something like a clone.  Going from guestimating how long the asari just melded with each other, it's almost like inbreeding because an asari genetic matrix only has so many indigenous configurations that defects like the ardat-yakshi do crop up.

They need the randomization variable from other species to essentially keep things fresh so to speak.

If I'm wrong in this, please point me to where I be better informed.

[Ghost Warrior]

Siansonea II wrote...

I'd also like to address the 'fanservice' issue. After ME1, many people clamored for a geth squad member, which at the time was a silly idea that many people disparaged as game-breaking and fanservice, and yet Legion is a great character who expands our understanding of the geth in new and interesting ways. Legion doesn't retcon anything we know about the geth in ME1, he just adds layers. People also asked for a salarian squad mate, so one could say that Mordin is a fanservice character. And yet, Mordin is an incredibly nuanced and thought-provoking character who I think is one of the best characters in the franchise. My point is, something that starts out as a 'fanservice' idea can easily become a wonderful addition to the series in its own right, so simply labeling something fanservice does not necessarily label it 'a bad idea'.

But do we know for sure that was fanservice?
Yes,I know same could be said for Garrus/Tali and S/S romances but those are just subplots which never seemed to have any effect to the main story.

But Mordin's and Legion's characters and LM-s could easily have big effect on ME3 main story which makes me wonder if they were indeed just a fanservice or something planned a long time ago.